France attacked 25 October 1939

[575]

Polish refugees in France
The British and French doesn't show much interest in the Polish Army members having fled Poland though at some point the MI6 actually did debrief a number of Polish Generals such as Kopanski, Prugar-Ketling, Maczek commander of the Polish Mech Brigade, Bohusz-Szysco and Colonel Sosabowski who seemed to be quite interesting – for a Pole. At least he had quite some experince of Regimental operational command.
The former 6 Corps Commander Sikorsky who since his being relieved of command 1928 had lived in France where he had become PM of the Polish Government in exile.
Also as many as 9,500 Pilots had escaped to France where they were being set up in 7 Sqd's with the 3 Sqd being operational during February 1940 and thrown into battle over Belgium.
Also an Army unit the 9 Lesser Poland Ulans managed to cross into Romania and move to France where it was reraised as a Reconnaisance Unit.
The 1 Polish Rifle Division had been formed 13 November 1939 and as soon as it was deemed combat ready it was sent to Belgium which was also the case of the 2 Fusiliers Division formed 11 Noember and then continueing training untill May 1940.
The Polish Rifle Highland Brigade had been formed 4 January 1940 and had initially been posted to the French Alpes Front to free up a French unit for Belgium.
Also another two Infantry Divisions was training.
The British and French at the time had a difficult relationship with the Poles as these had been defeated rapidly by the Germans as more had been expected of them. As such Sikorski's Government in Exile was tolerated but barely so and little was done to debrief them on their fighting experience until 1940 for what would they be able to add!
As the Carpatian Brigade and 1 and 2 Infantry Divisions were trained they were formed into a Polish Corps which would ease the chain of command as the French didn't bother to learn Polish but the Poles usually had knowledge of French. This did indeed prove a good idea as the Polish formations became much more efficient.

[stevep]

Dec 10, 2023 9:48:53 GMT 575 said:

Polish refugees in France
The British and French doesn't show much interest in the Polish Army members having fled Poland though at some point the MI6 actually did debrief a number of Polish Generals such as Kopanski, Prugar-Ketling, Maczek commander of the Polish Mech Brigade, Bohusz-Szysco and Colonel Sosabowski who seemed to be quite interesting – for a Pole. At least he had quite some experince of Regimental operational command.
The former 6 Corps Commander Sikorsky who since his being relieved of command 1928 had lived in France where he had become PM of the Polish Government in exile.
Also as many as 9,500 Pilots had escaped to France where they were being set up in 7 Sqd's with the 3 Sqd being operational during February 1940 and thrown into battle over Belgium.
Also an Army unit the 9 Lesser Poland Ulans managed to cross into Romania and move to France where it was reraised as a Reconnaisance Unit.
The 1 Polish Rifle Division had been formed 13 November 1939 and as soon as it was deemed combat ready it was sent to Belgium which was also the case of the 2 Fusiliers Division formed 11 Noember and then continueing training untill May 1940.
The Polish Rifle Highland Brigade had been formed 4 January 1940 and had initially been posted to the French Alpes Front to free up a French unit for Belgium.
Also another two Infantry Divisions was training.
The British and French at the time had a difficult relationship with the Poles as these had been defeated rapidly by the Germans as more had been expected of them. As such Sikorski's Government in Exile was tolerated but barely so and little was done to debrief them on their fighting experience until 1940 for what would they be able to add!
As the Carpatian Brigade and 1 and 2 Infantry Divisions were trained they were formed into a Polish Corps which would ease the chain of command as the French didn't bother to learn Polish but the Poles usually had knowledge of French. This did indeed prove a good idea as the Polish formations became much more efficient.

  I fear that would be depressingly accurate in terms of how the allies, currently rebuffing the German offensive, would view the Poles who had in comparison been overrun quickly.    Hopefully some people at least will start listening to what the Poles have to say.

  9,600 pilots seem a hell of a lot?  Would have been surprised if either Britain or France had that many trained pilots in this time period, especially considering how that was the bottleneck for Britain [and possibly also for Germany] in the OTL BoB.  Or does this include a lot of people with civilian training of some degree or another?

[575]

Dec 10, 2023 11:58:40 GMT stevep said:

Dec 10, 2023 9:48:53 GMT 575 said:

Polish refugees in France
The British and French doesn't show much interest in the Polish Army members having fled Poland though at some point the MI6 actually did debrief a number of Polish Generals such as Kopanski, Prugar-Ketling, Maczek commander of the Polish Mech Brigade, Bohusz-Szysco and Colonel Sosabowski who seemed to be quite interesting – for a Pole. At least he had quite some experince of Regimental operational command.
The former 6 Corps Commander Sikorsky who since his being relieved of command 1928 had lived in France where he had become PM of the Polish Government in exile.
Also as many as 9,500 Pilots had escaped to France where they were being set up in 7 Sqd's with the 3 Sqd being operational during February 1940 and thrown into battle over Belgium.
Also an Army unit the 9 Lesser Poland Ulans managed to cross into Romania and move to France where it was reraised as a Reconnaisance Unit.
The 1 Polish Rifle Division had been formed 13 November 1939 and as soon as it was deemed combat ready it was sent to Belgium which was also the case of the 2 Fusiliers Division formed 11 Noember and then continueing training untill May 1940.
The Polish Rifle Highland Brigade had been formed 4 January 1940 and had initially been posted to the French Alpes Front to free up a French unit for Belgium.
Also another two Infantry Divisions was training.
The British and French at the time had a difficult relationship with the Poles as these had been defeated rapidly by the Germans as more had been expected of them. As such Sikorski's Government in Exile was tolerated but barely so and little was done to debrief them on their fighting experience until 1940 for what would they be able to add!
As the Carpatian Brigade and 1 and 2 Infantry Divisions were trained they were formed into a Polish Corps which would ease the chain of command as the French didn't bother to learn Polish but the Poles usually had knowledge of French. This did indeed prove a good idea as the Polish formations became much more efficient.

  I fear that would be depressingly accurate in terms of how the allies, currently rebuffing the German offensive, would view the Poles who had in comparison been overrun quickly.    Hopefully some people at least will start listening to what the Poles have to say.

  9,600 pilots seem a hell of a lot?  Would have been surprised if either Britain or France had that many trained pilots in this time period, especially considering how that was the bottleneck for Britain [and possibly also for Germany] in the OTL BoB.  Or does this include a lot of people with civilian training of some degree or another?

It was actually taken from a page numbering Poles evacuated in the wake of the fall of France so it may contain Civil Air Pilots. As even the French was reluctant to feed the Poles into operational units there's some pool here to draw upon. Yes they need them.

[stevep]

Dec 10, 2023 12:17:31 GMT 575 said:

Dec 10, 2023 11:58:40 GMT stevep said:

  I fear that would be depressingly accurate in terms of how the allies, currently rebuffing the German offensive, would view the Poles who had in comparison been overrun quickly.    Hopefully some people at least will start listening to what the Poles have to say.

  9,600 pilots seem a hell of a lot?  Would have been surprised if either Britain or France had that many trained pilots in this time period, especially considering how that was the bottleneck for Britain [and possibly also for Germany] in the OTL BoB.  Or does this include a lot of people with civilian training of some degree or another?

It was actually taken from a page numbering Poles evacuated in the wake of the fall of France so it may contain Civil Air Pilots. As even the French was reluctant to feed the Poles into operational units there's some pool here to draw upon. Yes they need them.

  There was a similar reluctance in the RAF after OTL June 40 and it was only in the depths of the BoB that they agreed to allow Polish pilots in front line fighter service and they proved to be very good pilots.

[575]

SS City of Flint taken as prize by German raider Deutschland 9 October 1939 is finally on 3 November returned by Norwegain authorities to US control.
The ship had been rejected from Norwegian port Tromsø in North Norway from where the ship sailed on to Murmansk where she was interned by Soviet authorities from 23 November untill the 28 when the German Prize Crew had been released by the Soviets as the ship.
During the Internment at Murmansk the US Captain of the ship had been denied access to the US Embassy.
Arriving at Haugesund, south of Bergen, Norway the Norwegian authorities restore the US Captain command of his ship by having the HMNoS Olav Tryggvason, a Minesweeper, crew board the City of Flint and capturing the German Prize Crew. The German Prize Crew was taken to Kingsvinger Fortress in Southeast Norway for internment.
On her return journey City of Flint collide with British steamship Baron Blytheswood seeking port in Narvik 1 January 1940 for repairs that last till 7 January.

14 February 1940 the German replenishment ship of Admiral Graff Spee had evaded the RN and Marine Nationale on its journey towards German Port. This date the ship entered Norwegian territorial waters north of Trondhjem and continued south under German Navy Ensign to Bergen, following a loose Norwegian inspection.
The Norwegian Government sensing an unwanted problem dropping into its lap because of the British claims that British Seamen were held prisoner aboard the ship and a not too critical inspection carried out initially pondered what to do.
15 February Altmark was escorted through Bergen Navy Harbour further south to leave Norwegian waters though as British Destroyers were sighted it entered Jøssingfiord in the Soutwest of Norway.
The Norwegian Navy ships present had managed talking the RN off though a signal was sent to RN asking for orders.
The Norwegian commander at Bergen Admiral Tank-Nielsen kept pestering Government which is reluctant of letting the RN seize the ship in Norwegian waters but it also have a problem of letting the ship off if it indeed it is carrying prisoners. Knowing too well that this is a replay of City of Flint Government dithers back and forth but Admiral Tank-Nielsen decide that having left Norwegian waters and reentered the ship is available for renewed inspection.
The Inspection is carried out and this time minutely leading to the discovery of the prisoners of Allied Seamen aboard.
Admiral Tank-Nielsen informs Government of the findings and that he had ordered the ship boarded which have been carried out – not mentioning the RN Boarding Team taking part – and suggest the prisoners of war being returned to RN at sea.
Government furious at the Admiral but also reluctant of more publicity agree to Tank-Nielsen's suggestion.
Following the transferring of the POWs the Altmark is allowed to continue its journey through Neutral waters.
A few days later Admiral Tank-Nielsen is ordered by Navy Commander Diesen off his Command for a deskjob at Oslo.

The War had made for a more limited market for tramp steamers which was a large part of the Danish and Norwegian Merchantmen and the possibilities were at lower prices offered than under wartime conditions. However both Danes and Norwegians had an rather large number of Tankers some quite new and the Danes quite a number of Freezer ships much in demand for movement of logistics from colonies to Britain and France.
As most of the Danish and Norwegian Shipping firms had a diverse array of shiptypes and classes and possibilities for working with smaller firms able to supply them should and order seem too large deals were done mainly to satisfaction.

[stevep]

Dec 10, 2023 13:58:02 GMT 575 said:

SS City of Flint taken as prize by German raider Deutschland 9 October 1939 is finally on 3 November returned by Norwegain authorities to US control.
The ship had been rejected from Norwegian port Tromsø in North Norway from where the ship sailed on to Murmansk where she was interned by Soviet authorities from 23 November untill the 28 when the German Prize Crew had been released by the Soviets as the ship.
During the Internment at Murmansk the US Captain of the ship had been denied access to the US Embassy.
Arriving at Haugesund, south of Bergen, Norway the Norwegian authorities restore the US Captain command of his ship by having the HMNoS Olav Tryggvason, a Minesweeper, crew board the City of Flint and capturing the German Prize Crew. The German Prize Crew was taken to Kingsvinger Fortress in Southeast Norway for internment.
On her return journey City of Flint collide with British steamship Baron Blytheswood seeking port in Narvik 1 January 1940 for repairs that last till 7 January.

14 February 1940 the German replenishment ship of Admiral Graff Spee had evaded the RN and Marine Nationale on its journey towards German Port. This date the ship entered Norwegian territorial waters north of Trondhjem and continued south under German Navy Ensign to Bergen, following a loose Norwegian inspection.
The Norwegian Government sensing an unwanted problem dropping into its lap because of the British claims that British Seamen were held prisoner aboard the ship and a not too critical inspection carried out initially pondered what to do.
15 February Altmark was escorted through Bergen Navy Harbour further south to leave Norwegian waters though as British Destroyers were sighted it entered Jøssingfiord in the Soutwest of Norway.
The Norwegian Navy ships present had managed talking the RN off though a signal was sent to RN asking for orders.
The Norwegian commander at Bergen Admiral Tank-Nielsen kept pestering Government which is reluctant of letting the RN seize the ship in Norwegian waters but it also have a problem of letting the ship off if it indeed it is carrying prisoners. Knowing too well that this is a replay of City of Flint Government dithers back and forth but Admiral Tank-Nielsen decide that having left Norwegian waters and reentered the ship is available for renewed inspection.
The Inspection is carried out and this time minutely leading to the discovery of the prisoners of Allied Seamen aboard.
Admiral Tank-Nielsen informs Government of the findings and that he had ordered the ship boarded which have been carried out – not mentioning the RN Boarding Team taking part – and suggest the prisoners of war being returned to RN at sea.
Government furious at the Admiral but also reluctant of more publicity agree to Tank-Nielsen's suggestion.
Following the transferring of the POWs the Altmark is allowed to continue its journey through Neutral waters.
A few days later Admiral Tank-Nielsen is ordered by Navy Commander Diesen off his Command for a deskjob at Oslo.

The War had made for a more limited market for tramp steamers which was a large part of the Danish and Norwegian Merchantmen and the possibilities were at lower prices offered than under wartime conditions. However both Danes and Norwegians had an rather large number of Tankers some quite new and the Danes quite a number of Freezer ships much in demand for movement of logistics from colonies to Britain and France.
As most of the Danish and Norwegian Shipping firms had a diverse array of shiptypes and classes and possibilities for working with smaller firms able to supply them should and order seem too large deals were done mainly to satisfaction.

  Interesting.  I was a bit surprised about the government's action with the City of Flint since their neutral here.  Then they seem to go to the other extreme with the Altmark in bending over backwards to avoid investigating until the admiral decides for them.  Although its better diplomatically for both Norway and the allies than the OTL situation where the prisoners were only released after direct British military action.  - The lack of that might slow Captain Vian's career development a bit.  Checking the wiki article the POD here is that Tank-Nielsen did a full search rather than a more limited one as OTL which meant the prisoners, despite strenuous efforts weren't detected.

  In terms of the use of shipping hired from neutral states, while some distance from their homes in this cases could be used in places that are currently fairly safe such as the Med and points east of that?

[575]

Dec 11, 2023 17:56:54 GMT stevep said:

Dec 10, 2023 13:58:02 GMT 575 said:

SS City of Flint taken as prize by German raider Deutschland 9 October 1939 is finally on 3 November returned by Norwegain authorities to US control.
The ship had been rejected from Norwegian port Tromsø in North Norway from where the ship sailed on to Murmansk where she was interned by Soviet authorities from 23 November untill the 28 when the German Prize Crew had been released by the Soviets as the ship.
During the Internment at Murmansk the US Captain of the ship had been denied access to the US Embassy.
Arriving at Haugesund, south of Bergen, Norway the Norwegian authorities restore the US Captain command of his ship by having the HMNoS Olav Tryggvason, a Minesweeper, crew board the City of Flint and capturing the German Prize Crew. The German Prize Crew was taken to Kingsvinger Fortress in Southeast Norway for internment.
On her return journey City of Flint collide with British steamship Baron Blytheswood seeking port in Narvik 1 January 1940 for repairs that last till 7 January.

14 February 1940 the German replenishment ship of Admiral Graff Spee had evaded the RN and Marine Nationale on its journey towards German Port. This date the ship entered Norwegian territorial waters north of Trondhjem and continued south under German Navy Ensign to Bergen, following a loose Norwegian inspection.
The Norwegian Government sensing an unwanted problem dropping into its lap because of the British claims that British Seamen were held prisoner aboard the ship and a not too critical inspection carried out initially pondered what to do.
15 February Altmark was escorted through Bergen Navy Harbour further south to leave Norwegian waters though as British Destroyers were sighted it entered Jøssingfiord in the Soutwest of Norway.
The Norwegian Navy ships present had managed talking the RN off though a signal was sent to RN asking for orders.
The Norwegian commander at Bergen Admiral Tank-Nielsen kept pestering Government which is reluctant of letting the RN seize the ship in Norwegian waters but it also have a problem of letting the ship off if it indeed it is carrying prisoners. Knowing too well that this is a replay of City of Flint Government dithers back and forth but Admiral Tank-Nielsen decide that having left Norwegian waters and reentered the ship is available for renewed inspection.
The Inspection is carried out and this time minutely leading to the discovery of the prisoners of Allied Seamen aboard.
Admiral Tank-Nielsen informs Government of the findings and that he had ordered the ship boarded which have been carried out – not mentioning the RN Boarding Team taking part – and suggest the prisoners of war being returned to RN at sea.
Government furious at the Admiral but also reluctant of more publicity agree to Tank-Nielsen's suggestion.
Following the transferring of the POWs the Altmark is allowed to continue its journey through Neutral waters.
A few days later Admiral Tank-Nielsen is ordered by Navy Commander Diesen off his Command for a deskjob at Oslo.

The War had made for a more limited market for tramp steamers which was a large part of the Danish and Norwegian Merchantmen and the possibilities were at lower prices offered than under wartime conditions. However both Danes and Norwegians had an rather large number of Tankers some quite new and the Danes quite a number of Freezer ships much in demand for movement of logistics from colonies to Britain and France.
As most of the Danish and Norwegian Shipping firms had a diverse array of shiptypes and classes and possibilities for working with smaller firms able to supply them should and order seem too large deals were done mainly to satisfaction.

  Interesting.  I was a bit surprised about the government's action with the City of Flint since their neutral here.  Then they seem to go to the other extreme with the Altmark in bending over backwards to avoid investigating until the admiral decides for them.  Although its better diplomatically for both Norway and the allies than the OTL situation where the prisoners were only released after direct British military action.  - The lack of that might slow Captain Vian's career development a bit.  Checking the wiki article the POD here is that Tank-Nielsen did a full search rather than a more limited one as OTL which meant the prisoners, despite strenuous efforts weren't detected.

  In terms of the use of shipping hired from neutral states, while some distance from their homes in this cases could be used in places that are currently fairly safe such as the Med and points east of that?

The turnaround I think was really Norwegian Government post City of Flint where I was surprised of their actual decision to free the US Crew and Captain - had to read through it a couple of times and then the Altmark which technically didn't differ except that the one party was Allied and not Neutral USA.

I read some places that Admiral Tank-Nielsen wanted to do this so I let him as the Altmark makes it second entry into Norwegian waters. It also make of a more consistent line of Norwegian Government.

In the Med and other areas the problem at least according to Danish shipping being WAllied constant harassment of Neutrals checking for contrabande. Though of course it'll be far away from Germany.

[575]

The RN had been most active cooperating with the Marine Nationale in hunting down the German surface raiders leading to the scuttling of Admiral Graf Spee at River Plate, Montevideo by 17 December 1939 a most welcome Christmas Gift to the Admiralty.
Deutschland had escaped the net and returned to Germany but with a much less tally in sinkings. The third ship of the class Admiral Scheer had been subjected to aerial bombing on 4 September 1939 where a bomb had hit the deck and exploded with severe damage to the interior from a resulting fire and also damage to the sides of two near misses the ship was moved into dock for repairs which kept it there for a year.
The City of Flint and Altmark incidents had shown the Norwegians to be upholding their neutrality which whatever the doubts as to who had been responsible for what in Norway was satisfactory.
Besides the three old pre-Dreadnought ships still on the Navy list, though one Hannover had been laid up at Kiel since 1931 and actually removed from the Navy list during 1936, the German Kriegsmarine had two modern 11” Battleships in commission though one the Scharnhorst was under refit untill November 1939 and a 15” Battleship fitting out at Blohm und Voss shipyard at Hamburg where it had been launched during february 1939.

The Kriegsmarine had during November 1939 sent the 11” Battleships out to North Atlantic to try take some pressure off the hunting of the Admiral Graf Spee in the South Atlantic. The ships had sunk an Armed Merchant Cruiser Rawalpindi and had then been chased by RN Hood, Nelson, Rodney and Marine Nationale Dunkerque the latter scoring hits during the chase on Gneisenau.
The heavy weather had taken its toll on the German ships besides French guns and both had to stay in port for several months though Scharnhorst was able during mid-January 1940 by use of the Kiel Canal to cross into the Baltic.

The combat losses of both Submarines and Surface units made for Hitler being satisfied with the Kriegsmarine efforts to contribute to the war so far.

[stevep]

Dec 16, 2023 11:01:13 GMT 575 said:

The RN had been most active cooperating with the Marine Nationale in hunting down the German surface raiders leading to the scuttling of Admiral Graf Spee at River Plate, Montevideo by 17 December 1939 a most welcome Christmas Gift to the Admiralty.
Deutschland had escaped the net and returned to Germany but with a much less tally in sinkings. The third ship of the class Admiral Scheer had been subjected to aerial bombing on 4 September 1939 where a bomb had hit the deck and exploded with severe damage to the interior from a resulting fire and also damage to the sides of two near misses the ship was moved into dock for repairs which kept it there for a year.
The City of Flint and Altmark incidents had shown the Norwegians to be upholding their neutrality which whatever the doubts as to who had been responsible for what in Norway was satisfactory.
Besides the three old pre-Dreadnought ships still on the Navy list, though one Hannover had been laid up at Kiel since 1931 and actually removed from the Navy list during 1936, the German Kriegsmarine had two modern 11” Battleships in commission though one the Scharnhorst was under refit untill November 1939 and a 15” Battleship fitting out at Blohm und Voss shipyard at Hamburg where it had been launched during february 1939.

The Kriegsmarine had during November 1939 sent the 11” Battleships out to North Atlantic to try take some pressure off the hunting of the Admiral Graf Spee in the South Atlantic. The ships had sunk an Armed Merchant Cruiser Rawalpindi and had then been chased by RN Hood, Nelson, Rodney and Marine Nationale Dunkerque the latter scoring hits during the chase on Gneisenau.
The heavy weather had taken its toll on the German ships besides French guns and both had to stay in port for several months though Scharnhorst was able during mid-January 1940 by use of the Kiel Canal to cross into the Baltic.

The combat losses of both Submarines and Surface units made for Hitler being satisfied with the Kriegsmarine efforts to contribute to the war so far.

  I'm surprised that the Germans sent the twins out and even more that they escaped largely unscathed.  Given that they have neither Norway and France the ships would have to send pass through the North Sea and then the GIUK gap to get into the Atlantic and then again pass back through them to get back to safety. 

[575]

Dec 16, 2023 12:37:44 GMT stevep said:

Dec 16, 2023 11:01:13 GMT 575 said:

The RN had been most active cooperating with the Marine Nationale in hunting down the German surface raiders leading to the scuttling of Admiral Graf Spee at River Plate, Montevideo by 17 December 1939 a most welcome Christmas Gift to the Admiralty.
Deutschland had escaped the net and returned to Germany but with a much less tally in sinkings. The third ship of the class Admiral Scheer had been subjected to aerial bombing on 4 September 1939 where a bomb had hit the deck and exploded with severe damage to the interior from a resulting fire and also damage to the sides of two near misses the ship was moved into dock for repairs which kept it there for a year.
The City of Flint and Altmark incidents had shown the Norwegians to be upholding their neutrality which whatever the doubts as to who had been responsible for what in Norway was satisfactory.
Besides the three old pre-Dreadnought ships still on the Navy list, though one Hannover had been laid up at Kiel since 1931 and actually removed from the Navy list during 1936, the German Kriegsmarine had two modern 11” Battleships in commission though one the Scharnhorst was under refit untill November 1939 and a 15” Battleship fitting out at Blohm und Voss shipyard at Hamburg where it had been launched during february 1939.

The Kriegsmarine had during November 1939 sent the 11” Battleships out to North Atlantic to try take some pressure off the hunting of the Admiral Graf Spee in the South Atlantic. The ships had sunk an Armed Merchant Cruiser Rawalpindi and had then been chased by RN Hood, Nelson, Rodney and Marine Nationale Dunkerque the latter scoring hits during the chase on Gneisenau.
The heavy weather had taken its toll on the German ships besides French guns and both had to stay in port for several months though Scharnhorst was able during mid-January 1940 by use of the Kiel Canal to cross into the Baltic.

The combat losses of both Submarines and Surface units made for Hitler being satisfied with the Kriegsmarine efforts to contribute to the war so far.

  I'm surprised that the Germans sent the twins out and even more that they escaped largely unscathed.  Given that they have neither Norway and France the ships would have to send pass through the North Sea and then the GIUK gap to get into the Atlantic and then again pass back through them to get back to safety. 

So was I but this is OTL with a slight twist - the twins were sent out in the North Atlantic to take heat off Graf Spee. Having sunk Rawalpindi they headed north and then south during bad weather to German port.

The RN - Marine Nat. did chase them but didn't hit them..

Also Adm Scheer was subjected to aerial attack on 4 September but the one hit didn't explode and the near misses didn't do damage - here I just thought, when I realized this, that KM might do with a little extra time in port.

[575]

At least the WAllies are able to hold the line in Central Belgium during the next 6 months till the skies clear and Luftwaffe arrive in numbers on the scene.
The RAF and Arme de l'Air hadn't been able to reach much agreement on how to allocate resources. The most important developments had been Radar and as a needed element modern Figter Tactics. That worked well with the French beginning to take more and more responsibility for their own front.
Bombing was a different matter. Tactical developments had also gone forward as both BEF and French Army had like needs and their Airforces had to comply thus things had been done to allocate fighter escort to light bombers for these to survive their runs.

The trouble being Strategic Bombing.
The French had been shopping in the USA and was to receive the big Consolidated LB-30 Bomber/Transport to replace their lumbering Farman 222 and was even eyeing the Boeing B-17. Still the two airforces were conducting their separated Strategic Campaigns with RAF trying to hit the German Navy and Airfields, preferably with Aircraft upon them, and the infrastructure of War such as railways and factories.
The French still wanted to hit moving Army units which were difficult to detect even if work was being done on Enigma but were happy to hit Railways so the western German Railway Network mostly west of the Rhine was hit quite hard though the bridges across the river still stood.
With both Airforces realizing that sending Strategic Bombers off into the big blue sky in daytime was a bad idea the Night was utilized for such which in turn had the German begin interesting themselves in night-counter measures.
Both sides realized that because of prevailing Winter weather Radar could be of little use area patrol seemed the answer for the Germans supported by radar and Radio intelligence.

Because flying over the frontlines was inviting FLAK and Fighter patrols bombers would often go across the North Sea from East Anglia to avoid violating Ducht aeropspace too much and too often as the opposition would do like.
Thus range being important.
Realizing this early on the Germans began building a night defence line on the North Sea coast of Radars, Fighter airfields and AA-guns.
This was only the situation on the ewe of renewed German offensive come May 1940.

[stevep]

Jan 1, 2024 12:54:56 GMT 575 said:

At least the WAllies are able to hold the line in Central Belgium during the next 6 months till the skies clear and Luftwaffe arrive in numbers on the scene.
The RAF and Arme de l'Air hadn't been able to reach much agreement on how to allocate resources. The most important developments had been Radar and as a needed element modern Figter Tactics. That worked well with the French beginning to take more and more responsibility for their own front.
Bombing was a different matter. Tactical developments had also gone forward as both BEF and French Army had like needs and their Airforces had to comply thus things had been done to allocate fighter escort to light bombers for these to survive their runs.

The trouble being Strategic Bombing.
The French had been shopping in the USA and was to receive the big Consolidated LB-30 Bomber/Transport to replace their lumbering Farman 222 and was even eyeing the Boeing B-17. Still the two airforces were conducting their separated Strategic Campaigns with RAF trying to hit the German Navy and Airfields, preferably with Aircraft upon them, and the infrastructure of War such as railways and factories.
The French still wanted to hit moving Army units which were difficult to detect even if work was being done on Enigma but were happy to hit Railways so the western German Railway Network mostly west of the Rhine was hit quite hard though the bridges across the river still stood.
With both Airforces realizing that sending Strategic Bombers off into the big blue sky in daytime was a bad idea the Night was utilized for such which in turn had the German begin interesting themselves in night-counter measures.
Both sides realized that because of prevailing Winter weather Radar could be of little use area patrol seemed the answer for the Germans supported by radar and Radio intelligence.

Because flying over the frontlines was inviting FLAK and Fighter patrols bombers would often go across the North Sea from East Anglia to avoid violating Ducht aeropspace too much and too often as the opposition would do like.
Thus range being important.
Realizing this early on the Germans began building a night defence line on the North Sea coast of Radars, Fighter airfields and AA-guns.
This was only the situation on the ewe of renewed German offensive come May 1940.

  How ready would Germany be for a new offensive in May?  Or is it basically a desperate gamble.  The allies have considerably more resources and have had a valuable period to build up their forces while the failure of the German autumn campaign will have weakened their forces significantly and also impacted on morale, both military and civilian and the image of Germany in neutral nations.  the latter could be significant as Germany isn't going to look the colossus that they did OTL.  The allies will have taken heavy losses as well but their casualties are likely to be less while their production will be higher.  Coupled with experience learnt, especially over what not to do, its going to be a tough task against a prepared western allies. 

  In terms of strategic bombing campaigns would either side be willing to use area attacks at night if they haven't been on the receiving end of such attacks themselves?  If they do make such attacks they could be a lot more efficient than OTL if the allies use something like the guiding radio beams that the Germans used during the 1940/41 blitz.  Operating from France and with the target - i.e. in the Ruhr and Rhineland much closer and a wider potential base for the beams that could be very accurate until the Germans have the capacity to jam/divert beams and/or get an airborne radar to help night fighters track bombers.  Its not going to cause the collapse of the German economy but it would cause further problems, including probably forcing the drawing back of AA guns and fighters for defence against such attacks which pulls them away from the front.

[575]

Jan 1, 2024 22:11:47 GMT stevep said:

Jan 1, 2024 12:54:56 GMT 575 said:

At least the WAllies are able to hold the line in Central Belgium during the next 6 months till the skies clear and Luftwaffe arrive in numbers on the scene.
The RAF and Arme de l'Air hadn't been able to reach much agreement on how to allocate resources. The most important developments had been Radar and as a needed element modern Figter Tactics. That worked well with the French beginning to take more and more responsibility for their own front.
Bombing was a different matter. Tactical developments had also gone forward as both BEF and French Army had like needs and their Airforces had to comply thus things had been done to allocate fighter escort to light bombers for these to survive their runs.

The trouble being Strategic Bombing.
The French had been shopping in the USA and was to receive the big Consolidated LB-30 Bomber/Transport to replace their lumbering Farman 222 and was even eyeing the Boeing B-17. Still the two airforces were conducting their separated Strategic Campaigns with RAF trying to hit the German Navy and Airfields, preferably with Aircraft upon them, and the infrastructure of War such as railways and factories.
The French still wanted to hit moving Army units which were difficult to detect even if work was being done on Enigma but were happy to hit Railways so the western German Railway Network mostly west of the Rhine was hit quite hard though the bridges across the river still stood.
With both Airforces realizing that sending Strategic Bombers off into the big blue sky in daytime was a bad idea the Night was utilized for such which in turn had the German begin interesting themselves in night-counter measures.
Both sides realized that because of prevailing Winter weather Radar could be of little use area patrol seemed the answer for the Germans supported by radar and Radio intelligence.

Because flying over the frontlines was inviting FLAK and Fighter patrols bombers would often go across the North Sea from East Anglia to avoid violating Ducht aeropspace too much and too often as the opposition would do like.
Thus range being important.
Realizing this early on the Germans began building a night defence line on the North Sea coast of Radars, Fighter airfields and AA-guns.
This was only the situation on the ewe of renewed German offensive come May 1940.

  How ready would Germany be for a new offensive in May?  Or is it basically a desperate gamble.  The allies have considerably more resources and have had a valuable period to build up their forces while the failure of the German autumn campaign will have weakened their forces significantly and also impacted on morale, both military and civilian and the image of Germany in neutral nations.  the latter could be significant as Germany isn't going to look the colossus that they did OTL.  The allies will have taken heavy losses as well but their casualties are likely to be less while their production will be higher.  Coupled with experience learnt, especially over what not to do, its going to be a tough task against a prepared western allies. 

  In terms of strategic bombing campaigns would either side be willing to use area attacks at night if they haven't been on the receiving end of such attacks themselves?  If they do make such attacks they could be a lot more efficient than OTL if the allies use something like the guiding radio beams that the Germans used during the 1940/41 blitz.  Operating from France and with the target - i.e. in the Ruhr and Rhineland much closer and a wider potential base for the beams that could be very accurate until the Germans have the capacity to jam/divert beams and/or get an airborne radar to help night fighters track bombers.  Its not going to cause the collapse of the German economy but it would cause further problems, including probably forcing the drawing back of AA guns and fighters for defence against such attacks which pulls them away from the front.

Germany is in a bad state to launch a May offensive - I'm still working on the German preparations affected by the fighting in Belgium. I'm going to flesh it out but OTL the numbers built of Pz. III and IV wasn't impressive and the Czech Pz. 35 and Pz. 38 was to be discontinued. There's going to be change. Also in the air the breathing space for the Allies is doing a lot.

Strategic Bombing isn't what it was following the Blitz - its still in infancy and the French is opposed to hitting German cities. With the OTL difficulties in hitting stuff this is also a problem here. Which is also limiting the development of Allied radiobeams to target as expected damage is inflated as OTL. So basically not terribly effective except on extensive targets and even then limited.

The problem of course being hitting German industry which was in cities though with limited numbers of Bombers misses is not the big issue at the moment - however even lesser attacks on German cities IS a Nazi problem hence their earlier investment into Nightfighting capabilities.

[575]

During this time Mussolini several times tried acting the mediator between the two sides of the War though without any result as the WAllies having stopped the German attack in Belgium and was having the War going their way with increasing armaments production – though mostly in Britain – as the French seemed to have been lulled into the belief that nothing was urgent. The French troops fighting in Belgium had quite another peception of the issue.
The French Government tried forcing production up in gear and kept buying guns, ammunition and aircraft in USA.
Mussolini was surprised that the French actually inquired him about his demands for joining the WAllied cause – which he rejected discussing as he was uneasy on the mood of Hitler. He did have his Foreign Minister Ciano travel to Paris to talk to the French just to learn whats the reason for the inquirery.

[stevep]

Jan 3, 2024 9:39:23 GMT 575 said:

During this time Mussolini several times tried acting the mediator between the two sides of the War though without any result as the WAllies having stopped the German attack in Belgium and was having the War going their way with increasing armaments production – though mostly in Britain – as the French seemed to have been lulled into the belief that nothing was urgent. The French troops fighting in Belgium had quite another peception of the issue.
The French Government tried forcing production up in gear and kept buying guns, ammunition and aircraft in USA.
Mussolini was surprised that the French actually inquired him about his demands for joining the WAllied cause – which he rejected discussing as he was uneasy on the mood of Hitler. He did have his Foreign Minister Ciano travel to Paris to talk to the French just to learn whats the reason for the inquirery.

  That could be an interesting option, Italy joining the allies.  I think its unlikely because of the poor relations between the western powers and Mussolini after the former opposed [albeit not very vigorously] his attacks on Ethiopia and also because the decisions to stand against Hitler on the basis of the nature of his regime an alliance between the western powers and another, albeit markedly less murderous, fascist regime could have been politically awkward for both.