France attacked 25 October 1939

[575]

Jan 3, 2024 17:58:28 GMT stevep said:

Jan 3, 2024 9:39:23 GMT 575 said:

During this time Mussolini several times tried acting the mediator between the two sides of the War though without any result as the WAllies having stopped the German attack in Belgium and was having the War going their way with increasing armaments production – though mostly in Britain – as the French seemed to have been lulled into the belief that nothing was urgent. The French troops fighting in Belgium had quite another peception of the issue.
The French Government tried forcing production up in gear and kept buying guns, ammunition and aircraft in USA.
Mussolini was surprised that the French actually inquired him about his demands for joining the WAllied cause – which he rejected discussing as he was uneasy on the mood of Hitler. He did have his Foreign Minister Ciano travel to Paris to talk to the French just to learn whats the reason for the inquirery.

  That could be an interesting option, Italy joining the allies.  I think its unlikely because of the poor relations between the western powers and Mussolini after the former opposed [albeit not very vigorously] his attacks on Ethiopia and also because the decisions to stand against Hitler on the basis of the nature of his regime an alliance between the western powers and another, albeit markedly less murderous, fascist regime could have been politically awkward for both.

I just stumpled upon this one in a biography on Musso - too interesting not to include. It didn't mention the French content of proposal. I too don't see him joining the Allies as at this time he didn't dare turn away from Hitler. Much safer to stay on the line and play the mediator.

[stevep]

Jan 3, 2024 21:41:23 GMT 575 said:

Jan 3, 2024 17:58:28 GMT stevep said:

  That could be an interesting option, Italy joining the allies.  I think its unlikely because of the poor relations between the western powers and Mussolini after the former opposed [albeit not very vigorously] his attacks on Ethiopia and also because the decisions to stand against Hitler on the basis of the nature of his regime an alliance between the western powers and another, albeit markedly less murderous, fascist regime could have been politically awkward for both.

I just stumpled upon this one in a biography on Musso - too interesting not to include. It didn't mention the French content of proposal. I too don't see him joining the Allies as at this time he didn't dare turn away from Hitler. Much safer to stay on the line and play the mediator.

  Well he might dare given that according to some sources he had a formidable defensive line on the border with what's now Germany and also Hitler's star has received something of a check but trying to play a mediator would seem to be the best option for him at this point given what he knows.

[575]

Jan 3, 2024 21:58:22 GMT stevep said:

Jan 3, 2024 21:41:23 GMT 575 said:

I just stumpled upon this one in a biography on Musso - too interesting not to include. It didn't mention the French content of proposal. I too don't see him joining the Allies as at this time he didn't dare turn away from Hitler. Much safer to stay on the line and play the mediator.

  Well he might dare given that according to some sources he had a formidable defensive line on the border with what's now Germany and also Hitler's star has received something of a check but trying to play a mediator would seem to be the best option for him at this point given what he knows.

A possible though against it the Germans have been checked but are still dangerous and allied to the Soviets which Musso opposed during the Winter War supplying combat aircraft to the Finns.

Also being the mediator historically is very a hounorable position of a state leader.

[575]

The WAllies hadn't been sitting on their hands. The most important thing being fighting taking place in Belgium and eastern France north of the Maginot Line in the Ardennes Forest making the French acutely aware of the situation.
The Germans even having a thrust through that hilly wooded terrain had kept up a vigorous activity ever trying to advance even a few 100-meters if given the possibility.
Though the French had been somewhat laid back in attitude during the Fall months as things turned hard Winter with a foe on the doorstep determined to get through the door the perception changed. The call upon women to take up jobs in industry like during the Great War got under way but also the heavy dark shadow from the East looming on the snowcovered horizon had several industries increase production – anybody trying to tripwire this was handily called up for Service and shipped off to places like the Levant, Madagascar, Central Africa or FIC. Don't have it like these middleaged Trade Union Representatives being sent to certain death just out of arms reach.
Passing the New Year with fighting ongoing and the occasional German Airraid on French Ports, Industry and Railways the French industrial output began a slow climb.
The experience of combat also saw the cancelling of a couple of heavy Tank projects scheduled for production during 1940 the assault vehicle ARL V39 which was essentially a modernized Char B1 and the landship Tank FCM F1 which would replace the Char 2C.
The French Army had realized it needed something lighter more manouevreable with a heavier gun though the 47mm still did sterling service which could be produced in numbers.
To slim production to useable types Renault was tasked with get producing the D2 going and drop the R35 and R40.
Somua was to keep the S35 production going.
Hotchkiss to switch to only the H39 and if possible rebuild the H35 for the gun of the H39.
The various producers was told to get a 75mm gun into the turret of the B1 or drop production preferably switching to the Somua.
As a general demand all new tanks would be fitted with at least one radio and space for mounting a second.
Dietrich et Compagnie de Lunéville was to get the Lorraine APC production going along the various subtypes.

With that much settled the French asked the British of their tank turret production; French Industry had problems building larger turrets than the existing ones limiting effectively upgunning French tanks and also making for a better fighting environment within Tanks.
British Infantry and Cruiser Tanks with their three man turrets with a wider turretring was a must French industri complained.
As Renault had asked for being allowed to supply the British with APCs would the British supply blueprints for their tank turrets?
A deal was reached on the issue.

The French was building a new lot of DLM Armoured Divisions and the British was about finished with rebuilding the 1 Armoured Division with the 2 moving on according to plan.
There had still been proponents of the pure Tank Brigade but fighting in Belgium had changed the outlook of the BEF. The Tank Brigades had been reformed in an effort to build more Armoured Divisions with 3 Armoured Division built on the 1 Army Tank Brigade that had gone to France with BEF in September 1939 had been almost finished.
The outfitting of the Infantry Battalions of the Service Brigade of Armoured Divisions with Armoured transports had had the British Army look to French Car Producer Renault that had done its own competing design of an Armoured Personnel Carrier to try rival the Lorraine 38 VBCP which had won Government contract to supply the DLMs with a real APC.
The British interest had been a godsent to Renault which had presented its DAJ1 APC with a fully enclosed load area in contrast to the roof lacking of the Lorraine and a drivers armored cupola to protect him too. Renault had been swift to clear the assembly lines and start output.
The French had realized that the Char B1bis was a fine vehicle suitably armoured and armed but lacking a crewmember and the hullmounted main 75mm gun was not satisfactory.

[stevep]

Jan 11, 2024 12:49:49 GMT 575 said:

The WAllies hadn't been sitting on their hands. The most important thing being fighting taking place in Belgium and eastern France north of the Maginot Line in the Ardennes Forest making the French acutely aware of the situation.
The Germans even having a thrust through that hilly wooded terrain had kept up a vigorous activity ever trying to advance even a few 100-meters if given the possibility.
Though the French had been somewhat laid back in attitude during the Fall months as things turned hard Winter with a foe on the doorstep determined to get through the door the perception changed. The call upon women to take up jobs in industry like during the Great War got under way but also the heavy dark shadow from the East looming on the snowcovered horizon had several industries increase production – anybody trying to tripwire this was handily called up for Service and shipped off to places like the Levant, Madagascar, Central Africa or FIC. Don't have it like these middleaged Trade Union Representatives being sent to certain death just out of arms reach.
Passing the New Year with fighting ongoing and the occasional German Airraid on French Ports, Industry and Railways the French industrial output began a slow climb.
The experience of combat also saw the cancelling of a couple of heavy Tank projects scheduled for production during 1940 the assault vehicle ARL V39 which was essentially a modernized Char B1 and the landship Tank FCM F1 which would replace the Char 2C.
The French Army had realized it needed something lighter more manouevreable with a heavier gun though the 47mm still did sterling service which could be produced in numbers.
To slim production to useable types Renault was tasked with get producing the D2 going and drop the R35 and R40.
Somua was to keep the S35 production going.
Hotchkiss to switch to only the H39 and if possible rebuild the H35 for the gun of the H39.
The various producers was told to get a 75mm gun into the turret of the B1 or drop production preferably switching to the Somua.
As a general demand all new tanks would be fitted with at least one radio and space for mounting a second.
Dietrich et Compagnie de Lunéville was to get the Lorraine APC production going along the various subtypes.

With that much settled the French asked the British of their tank turret production; French Industry had problems building larger turrets than the existing ones limiting effectively upgunning French tanks and also making for a better fighting environment within Tanks.
British Infantry and Cruiser Tanks with their three man turrets with a wider turretring was a must French industri complained.
As Renault had asked for being allowed to supply the British with APCs would the British supply blueprints for their tank turrets?
A deal was reached on the issue.

The French was building a new lot of DLM Armoured Divisions and the British was about finished with rebuilding the 1 Armoured Division with the 2 moving on according to plan.
There had still been proponents of the pure Tank Brigade but fighting in Belgium had changed the outlook of the BEF. The Tank Brigades had been reformed in an effort to build more Armoured Divisions with 3 Armoured Division built on the 1 Army Tank Brigade that had gone to France with BEF in September 1939 had been almost finished.
The outfitting of the Infantry Battalions of the Service Brigade of Armoured Divisions with Armoured transports had had the British Army look to French Car Producer Renault that had done its own competing design of an Armoured Personnel Carrier to try rival the Lorraine 38 VBCP which had won Government contract to supply the DLMs with a real APC.
The British interest had been a godsent to Renault which had presented its DAJ1 APC with a fully enclosed load area in contrast to the roof lacking of the Lorraine and a drivers armored cupola to protect him too. Renault had been swift to clear the assembly lines and start output.
The French had realized that the Char B1bis was a fine vehicle suitably armoured and armed but lacking a crewmember and the hullmounted main 75mm gun was not satisfactory.

  Sounds like a good  combination of actions between the two allies that if they can be moved fast enough would make things even direr for any German offensive.

[575]

Jan 11, 2024 16:22:04 GMT stevep said:

Jan 11, 2024 12:49:49 GMT 575 said:

The WAllies hadn't been sitting on their hands. The most important thing being fighting taking place in Belgium and eastern France north of the Maginot Line in the Ardennes Forest making the French acutely aware of the situation.
The Germans even having a thrust through that hilly wooded terrain had kept up a vigorous activity ever trying to advance even a few 100-meters if given the possibility.
Though the French had been somewhat laid back in attitude during the Fall months as things turned hard Winter with a foe on the doorstep determined to get through the door the perception changed. The call upon women to take up jobs in industry like during the Great War got under way but also the heavy dark shadow from the East looming on the snowcovered horizon had several industries increase production – anybody trying to tripwire this was handily called up for Service and shipped off to places like the Levant, Madagascar, Central Africa or FIC. Don't have it like these middleaged Trade Union Representatives being sent to certain death just out of arms reach.
Passing the New Year with fighting ongoing and the occasional German Airraid on French Ports, Industry and Railways the French industrial output began a slow climb.
The experience of combat also saw the cancelling of a couple of heavy Tank projects scheduled for production during 1940 the assault vehicle ARL V39 which was essentially a modernized Char B1 and the landship Tank FCM F1 which would replace the Char 2C.
The French Army had realized it needed something lighter more manouevreable with a heavier gun though the 47mm still did sterling service which could be produced in numbers.
To slim production to useable types Renault was tasked with get producing the D2 going and drop the R35 and R40.
Somua was to keep the S35 production going.
Hotchkiss to switch to only the H39 and if possible rebuild the H35 for the gun of the H39.
The various producers was told to get a 75mm gun into the turret of the B1 or drop production preferably switching to the Somua.
As a general demand all new tanks would be fitted with at least one radio and space for mounting a second.
Dietrich et Compagnie de Lunéville was to get the Lorraine APC production going along the various subtypes.

With that much settled the French asked the British of their tank turret production; French Industry had problems building larger turrets than the existing ones limiting effectively upgunning French tanks and also making for a better fighting environment within Tanks.
British Infantry and Cruiser Tanks with their three man turrets with a wider turretring was a must French industri complained.
As Renault had asked for being allowed to supply the British with APCs would the British supply blueprints for their tank turrets?
A deal was reached on the issue.

The French was building a new lot of DLM Armoured Divisions and the British was about finished with rebuilding the 1 Armoured Division with the 2 moving on according to plan.
There had still been proponents of the pure Tank Brigade but fighting in Belgium had changed the outlook of the BEF. The Tank Brigades had been reformed in an effort to build more Armoured Divisions with 3 Armoured Division built on the 1 Army Tank Brigade that had gone to France with BEF in September 1939 had been almost finished.
The outfitting of the Infantry Battalions of the Service Brigade of Armoured Divisions with Armoured transports had had the British Army look to French Car Producer Renault that had done its own competing design of an Armoured Personnel Carrier to try rival the Lorraine 38 VBCP which had won Government contract to supply the DLMs with a real APC.
The British interest had been a godsent to Renault which had presented its DAJ1 APC with a fully enclosed load area in contrast to the roof lacking of the Lorraine and a drivers armored cupola to protect him too. Renault had been swift to clear the assembly lines and start output.
The French had realized that the Char B1bis was a fine vehicle suitably armoured and armed but lacking a crewmember and the hullmounted main 75mm gun was not satisfactory.

  Sounds like a good  combination of actions between the two allies that if they can be moved fast enough would make things even direr for any German offensive.

I tried not to wank the WAllies as I don't see such happening; there are all kinds of adversity to the WAllies as is.

And there's a few more things that will be a spanner in the works of Nazi-Germany.

[stevep]

Jan 11, 2024 17:07:51 GMT 575 said:

Jan 11, 2024 16:22:04 GMT stevep said:

  Sounds like a good  combination of actions between the two allies that if they can be moved fast enough would make things even direr for any German offensive.

I tried not to wank the WAllies as I don't see such happening; there are all kinds of adversity to the WAllies as is.

And there's a few more things that will be a spanner in the works of Nazi-Germany.

  Well of course the problem for the western allies, although it won't be the huge task taking down Nazi Germany as it was OTL is that their pretty much got to do it on their own with no real involvement from the US or [hopefully - as that could cause more problems] USSR. 

[575]

With more resources being directed into better armoured Panzers another force had to suffer; the Kriegsmarine which had used its available Submarines force to interdict the waterways into Britain mainly and less to France due to a low number of oceangoing Submarines – 21 at the outbreak of hostilities and 30 coastal Submarines.
The effort had been placed in building more oceangoing Submarines to counter the Allied Convoy system and other countermeasures.

Initially the number of lost Submarines were almost replaced but the change in allocation of steel did longer term damage to the number of Submarines that the Kriegsmarine would sustain in operation particularly because operational oceangoing Submarines had been halved due to WAllied countermeasures which limited operations to the North Sea and Channel with the coastal Submarines.

To get more from limited resources Admiral Reader argued in a Führer conference that the Submarines should be directed to attacking neutral shipping in the North Sea and Channel areas. The larger number of coastal Submarines would be of good use and the Allied wareffort indirectly targeted by taking out food and industry deliveries to mainly Britain.
Hitler looked at Reader saying out of the question – Denmark and Netherlands are indirectly supplying our industrial effort by deliveries of manufacture we would have to do ourselves as well as being major constributers to our supply of agricultural produce. This bartering make us able to feed the population and continue the War. Your proposal will to some extend sever these supply sources which we in the present situation have little room for losing!

[stevep]

Jan 16, 2024 10:03:23 GMT 575 said:

With more resources being directed into better armoured Panzers another force had to suffer; the Kriegsmarine which had used its available Submarines force to interdict the waterways into Britain mainly and less to France due to a low number of oceangoing Submarines – 21 at the outbreak of hostilities and 30 coastal Submarines.
The effort had been placed in building more oceangoing Submarines to counter the Allied Convoy system and other countermeasures.

Initially the number of lost Submarines were almost replaced but the change in allocation of steel did longer term damage to the number of Submarines that the Kriegsmarine would sustain in operation particularly because operational oceangoing Submarines had been halved due to WAllied countermeasures which limited operations to the North Sea and Channel with the coastal Submarines.

To get more from limited resources Admiral Reader argued in a Führer conference that the Submarines should be directed to attacking neutral shipping in the North Sea and Channel areas. The larger number of coastal Submarines would be of good use and the Allied wareffort indirectly targeted by taking out food and industry deliveries to mainly Britain.
Hitler looked at Reader saying out of the question – Denmark and Netherlands are indirectly supplying our industrial effort by deliveries of manufacture we would have to do ourselves as well as being major constributers to our supply of agricultural produce. This bartering make us able to feed the population and continue the War. Your proposal will to some extend sever these supply sources which we in the present situation have little room for losing!

  On this point I fully agree with Hitler!!!!   It would be bloody stupid to alienate the neutrals, with political feeling in the US also affected while attacks on Norwegian shipping, which would be likely as well potentially threatening trade with that country.  Which if the war continues into the winter - as still looks likely - the threat of blocking of Swedish ore via Narvik.

[575]

Jan 16, 2024 11:29:44 GMT stevep said:

Jan 16, 2024 10:03:23 GMT 575 said:

With more resources being directed into better armoured Panzers another force had to suffer; the Kriegsmarine which had used its available Submarines force to interdict the waterways into Britain mainly and less to France due to a low number of oceangoing Submarines – 21 at the outbreak of hostilities and 30 coastal Submarines.
The effort had been placed in building more oceangoing Submarines to counter the Allied Convoy system and other countermeasures.

Initially the number of lost Submarines were almost replaced but the change in allocation of steel did longer term damage to the number of Submarines that the Kriegsmarine would sustain in operation particularly because operational oceangoing Submarines had been halved due to WAllied countermeasures which limited operations to the North Sea and Channel with the coastal Submarines.

To get more from limited resources Admiral Reader argued in a Führer conference that the Submarines should be directed to attacking neutral shipping in the North Sea and Channel areas. The larger number of coastal Submarines would be of good use and the Allied wareffort indirectly targeted by taking out food and industry deliveries to mainly Britain.
Hitler looked at Reader saying out of the question – Denmark and Netherlands are indirectly supplying our industrial effort by deliveries of manufacture we would have to do ourselves as well as being major constributers to our supply of agricultural produce. This bartering make us able to feed the population and continue the War. Your proposal will to some extend sever these supply sources which we in the present situation have little room for losing!

  On this point I fully agree with Hitler!!!!   It would be bloody stupid to alienate the neutrals, with political feeling in the US also affected while attacks on Norwegian shipping, which would be likely as well potentially threatening trade with that country.  Which if the war continues into the winter - as still looks likely - the threat of blocking of Swedish ore via Narvik.

One of the things I remembered was the high importance the Nazi-party had of securing food imports for the population - the spectre of WWI famine much feared of losing popular support but also addressed by Hitler to win the hearths and minds of the German populace.

[575]

Just had the time to look up a statistic:

Tank production numbers 1940:

British Tank production: 1940 1,379

French Tk prod.:1,250 ½/1940 1940 e 3,000

German Tk prod.: 1940 1,139

US Tk prod.: 1940 331

Source except French no's here

[stevep]

Jan 24, 2024 15:16:40 GMT 575 said:

Just had the time to look up a statistic:

Tank production numbers 1940:

British Tank production: 1940 1,379

French Tk prod.:1,250 ½/1940 1940 e 3,000

German Tk prod.: 1940 1,139

US Tk prod.: 1940 331

Source except French no's here

  Bloody hell that's a lot of tanks for the French.  British production might be inflated somewhat in that OTL with the fact we were suddenly on our own and also had to replace losses in Europe Britain went full pelt into production.  I think that for a while in 1940-41 Britain was in several areas outproducing the combined production of Germany, Italy and Japan!

  A lot depends of course on the quality of the tanks and how their used but those are grim figures for Germany.  They might try more military production but could struggle to replace losses suffered already and given the greater restrains on Germany hear - with less areas to loot and without Italy taking up some of the strain - as well as the fear of public reaction with the war now going poorly they could end up producing even less than OTL in 1940. 

  One other factor that comes to mind is that the US might plan less production that OTL as with the Germans stalled, France still fighting and Italy neutral the threat in Europe will seem significantly less and also possibly in the Pacific as Japan has a less powerful position here, coupled with possibly severe under-estimations of the Japan capability.

[575]

I found a statistic on this page for the first half of 1940. As it seemed Tank production might be going up I took a conservative approach. Guess the French figure might actually be higher.

It was the German figures for operational Tanks in Poland and the not much larger number in France that made me wonder that they were actually badly off. Of course their tanks were of higher quality at this time though the French were better armoured and both their and the British ones were better armed. The paper by Coombs show that British quality control was too low and actually not on par with British aircraft production.

So yes the Germans are out badly.

I also expect the US to produce less at least export less to the Europeans though they will still sell a lot of Trucks to the French and also quite some aircraft.

Regarding Japan I'm not that far ahead.

[stevep]

Jan 24, 2024 20:57:09 GMT 575 said:

I found a statistic on this page for the first half of 1940. As it seemed Tank production might be going up I took a conservative approach. Guess the French figure might actually be higher.

It was the German figures for operational Tanks in Poland and the not much larger number in France that made me wonder that they were actually badly off. Of course their tanks were of higher quality at this time though the French were better armoured and both their and the British ones were better armed. The paper by Coombs show that British quality control was too low and actually not on par with British aircraft production.

So yes the Germans are out badly.

I also expect the US to produce less at least export less to the Europeans though they will still sell a lot of Trucks to the French and also quite some aircraft.

Regarding Japan I'm not that far ahead.

  I think the primary problem with the allies armoured and other military forces were less equipment than doctrine, both in their own use and in co-operation with the Luftwaffe especially.  Hopefully the fighting that has occurred will start changing this somewhat.

  In terms of Japan it faces an even worse situation than OTL as while France is still independent their not going to get FIC without a possible fight, which in turn puts them further away from Malaya and the DEI, as well as making Thailand unlikely as even a limited ally.  Furthermore the KMT is going to get more support more easily via FIC especially and japan won't have bases in FIC to threaten China from the south.  The status of the DEI might also change, although with a major war on the doorstep and the invasion of Belgium and possibly Denmark [to close the Baltic] the Netherlands are likely to be doing everything to bolster their home defence so might not commit much more to their colonies.

  The only significant danger here for the allies and it probably won't appear for another 12-18 months minimum would be if Japan still feels painted into a corner and strikes south but because the US is still significantly isolationist risks not attacking the US possessions, which could be nasty for an overstretched Anglo-French position.  Although there's a decent if not good chance that by that date Germany is no longer a significant problem.

[575]

Jan 24, 2024 22:08:10 GMT stevep said:

Jan 24, 2024 20:57:09 GMT 575 said:

I found a statistic on this page for the first half of 1940. As it seemed Tank production might be going up I took a conservative approach. Guess the French figure might actually be higher.

It was the German figures for operational Tanks in Poland and the not much larger number in France that made me wonder that they were actually badly off. Of course their tanks were of higher quality at this time though the French were better armoured and both their and the British ones were better armed. The paper by Coombs show that British quality control was too low and actually not on par with British aircraft production.

So yes the Germans are out badly.

I also expect the US to produce less at least export less to the Europeans though they will still sell a lot of Trucks to the French and also quite some aircraft.

Regarding Japan I'm not that far ahead.

  I think the primary problem with the allies armoured and other military forces were less equipment than doctrine, both in their own use and in co-operation with the Luftwaffe especially.  Hopefully the fighting that has occurred will start changing this somewhat.

  In terms of Japan it faces an even worse situation than OTL as while France is still independent their not going to get FIC without a possible fight, which in turn puts them further away from Malaya and the DEI, as well as making Thailand unlikely as even a limited ally.  Furthermore the KMT is going to get more support more easily via FIC especially and japan won't have bases in FIC to threaten China from the south.  The status of the DEI might also change, although with a major war on the doorstep and the invasion of Belgium and possibly Denmark [to close the Baltic] the Netherlands are likely to be doing everything to bolster their home defence so might not commit much more to their colonies.

  The only significant danger here for the allies and it probably won't appear for another 12-18 months minimum would be if Japan still feels painted into a corner and strikes south but because the US is still significantly isolationist risks not attacking the US possessions, which could be nasty for an overstretched Anglo-French position.  Although there's a decent if not good chance that by that date Germany is no longer a significant problem.

stevep;

Agree on Allied lack of doctrine for use of armour as well as lack of cooperation with their airforces though the French ought to be the ones to remedy that first as the RAF had a much more independent position than the majority of French air assets. Just realized this now.

Thanks for the input on Japanese situation - thing is the Dutch are going to reinforce their airforce in NEI come May and Fokker G-1's have come off the assemblyline in numbers which will "rid" them of the Fokker D-XXI for NEI and have the more able G-1 to defend home.

Japan striking south ITTL will to some degree depend upon the position of the Soviets. I'm not there yet.