US politics in a Nazis Win TL

[Max Sinister]

Generally: How would US politics change if the nazis won WW2?

Of course, we'll have to think about the differences for the various possibilities:

- Hitler declares war on the US, as OTL
- or he doesn't, and vice versa

- Nazis control "only" the European continent (maybe after an armistice with Stalin not even all of Russia to the Urals)
- or their empire includes Britain, and/or a big colonial empire in Africa and the Middle East (OK, that's ASBish)

- Nazis try to interfere, Cold War-like, in American states
- They don't, and expect the same from the US

- Will the US politics nazify ("they defeated Communism, and they were generally very successful, so they can't be all wrong") - eugenics and oppression of non-WASPs in the interior, dominating Latin America even more in the exterior?
- Or will all anti-nazi powers unite against them, making the US more of a Social Democracy?
- Or would the US isolate itself and do whatever they think is best for them?

What will the emigrants in the US do?

(In the past I started a thread at the other AH forum about it, although it had no conclusion.) link

[stevep]

Oct 18, 2023 18:50:12 GMT Max Sinister said:

Generally: How would US politics change if the nazis won WW2?

Of course, we'll have to think about the differences for the various possibilities:

- Hitler declares war on the US, as OTL
- or he doesn't, and vice versa

- Nazis control "only" the European continent (maybe after an armistice with Stalin not even all of Russia to the Urals)
- or their empire includes Britain, and/or a big colonial empire in Africa and the Middle East (OK, that's ASBish)

- Nazis try to interfere, Cold War-like, in American states
- They don't, and expect the same from the US

- Will the US politics nazify ("they defeated Communism, and they were generally very successful, so they can't be all wrong") - eugenics and oppression of non-WASPs in the interior, dominating Latin America even more in the exterior?
- Or will all anti-nazi powers unite against them, making the US more of a Social Democracy?
- Or would the US isolate itself and do whatever they think is best for them?

What will the emigrants in the US do?

(In the past I started a thread at the other AH forum about it, although it had no conclusion.) link

  I think as you say so much depends on the circumstances.  For instance how much conflict, even if not open war has occurred between the US and Germany, who is in charge of Germany because if Hitler died then whoever wins the struggle for supremacy would potentially change options a hell of a lot.  Germany could conquer Britain or at least force an [initially anyway] friendly at least semi-fascist government on it although that is unlikely.  What has happened in the Far East as it could be that with somewhat better Germany diplomacy and Germany not declaring war after Pearl Harbour a lot of Americans could see the Pacific as 'their war'

  If Germany controls pretty much the entire continent west of say the Volga - let alone the Urals - and doesn't implode due to the sheer insanity and stupidity of the Nazi regime then it and the Us are going to be at least economic and diplomatic rivals even if no formal cold war type situation.  A lot could depend on what other significant players are left, and what sort of state their in. 

  The other issue is what happens with internal American politics?  If Roosevelt and his policies of international involvement are discredited and internally defeated what sort of US emerges as a result?

  Basically even without going too far into ASB territory just about anything short of a German [serious] invasion of the Americas is possible.  Plus a regime that after Hitler is gone regains a level of sanity and hence proves say as stable as the USSR or on the other extreme you get Gobbles and the like in charge and the system collapses into a massive blood-bath which leaves just about everywhere within reach of it devastated and in chaos.

  The other big issue in the medium/long term is can the Nazis get over their rejection of 'Jewish science' and other incompetences and actually develop nukes themselves?

[longvin]

Oct 18, 2023 21:36:36 GMT stevep said:

Oct 18, 2023 18:50:12 GMT Max Sinister said:

Generally: How would US politics change if the nazis won WW2?

Of course, we'll have to think about the differences for the various possibilities:

- Hitler declares war on the US, as OTL
- or he doesn't, and vice versa

- Nazis control "only" the European continent (maybe after an armistice with Stalin not even all of Russia to the Urals)
- or their empire includes Britain, and/or a big colonial empire in Africa and the Middle East (OK, that's ASBish)

- Nazis try to interfere, Cold War-like, in American states
- They don't, and expect the same from the US

- Will the US politics nazify ("they defeated Communism, and they were generally very successful, so they can't be all wrong") - eugenics and oppression of non-WASPs in the interior, dominating Latin America even more in the exterior?
- Or will all anti-nazi powers unite against them, making the US more of a Social Democracy?
- Or would the US isolate itself and do whatever they think is best for them?

What will the emigrants in the US do?

(In the past I started a thread at the other AH forum about it, although it had no conclusion.) link

  I think as you say so much depends on the circumstances.  For instance how much conflict, even if not open war has occurred between the US and Germany, who is in charge of Germany because if Hitler died then whoever wins the struggle for supremacy would potentially change options a hell of a lot.  Germany could conquer Britain or at least force an [initially anyway] friendly at least semi-fascist government on it although that is unlikely.  What has happened in the Far East as it could be that with somewhat better Germany diplomacy and Germany not declaring war after Pearl Harbour a lot of Americans could see the Pacific as 'their war'

  If Germany controls pretty much the entire continent west of say the Volga - let alone the Urals - and doesn't implode due to the sheer insanity and stupidity of the Nazi regime then it and the Us are going to be at least economic and diplomatic rivals even if no formal cold war type situation.  A lot could depend on what other significant players are left, and what sort of state their in. 

  The other issue is what happens with internal American politics?  If Roosevelt and his policies of international involvement are discredited and internally defeated what sort of US emerges as a result?

  Basically even without going too far into ASB territory just about anything short of a German [serious] invasion of the Americas is possible.  Plus a regime that after Hitler is gone regains a level of sanity and hence proves say as stable as the USSR or on the other extreme you get Gobbles and the like in charge and the system collapses into a massive blood-bath which leaves just about everywhere within reach of it devastated and in chaos.

  The other big issue in the medium/long term is can the Nazis get over their rejection of 'Jewish science' and other incompetences and actually develop nukes themselves?

If the US develops nukes then I feel like Germany will be forced to get over their notions of "jewish science" and seriously consider nuclear development.

From what I read on the german nuclear program anyway is that the german scientists were going about creating a nuclear explosion completely different, basically forcing a reactor into meltdown, which could never be made small enough to be portable. Post war the scientists tried to claim they purposely sabotaged the nuclear program, but british surveillance of the scientists while they in prison shows they were actually shocked how the Americans did it.

The thing about nukes is once someone does it basically everyone that understands physics enough knows how to do it. The genie is out of the bottle. The only thing really stopping you from making nukes is the industrial capacity.

[gillan1220]

The timelines The Anglo/American - Nazi War and Thousand Week Reich explore what U.S. domestic politics will be like. It would be a mix of "Fortress America" and weeding out potential Nazi spies and saboteurs while building up the navy, long-range bombers, air defenses, and nuclear weapons for deterence.

[stevep]

Oct 19, 2023 2:40:41 GMT gillan1220 said:

The timelines The Anglo/American - Nazi War and Thousand Week Reich explore what U.S. domestic politics will be like. It would be a mix of "Fortress America" and weeding out potential Nazi spies and saboteurs while building up the navy, long-range bombers, air defenses, and nuclear weapons for deterence.

  Interesting.  Just skimmed through the 1st page of maps for the TWR and looks a lot of work gone into that.  IIRC the AANZ is an older one going back to my time on the site and is also interesting.  Just checked and yes it started back in 2008.  Brings back a few memories.

[lordroel]

Oct 18, 2023 18:50:12 GMT Max Sinister said:

Generally: How would US politics change if the nazis won WW2?

Would it look like the Fatherland novel/movie where the United states supports the British government in exile in Canada and helps the Russians fight and bleed the Germans in a larger version of the Afghanistan War.

[gillan1220]

Oct 19, 2023 17:05:29 GMT lordroel said:

Oct 18, 2023 18:50:12 GMT Max Sinister said:

Generally: How would US politics change if the nazis won WW2?

Would it look like the Fatherland novel/movie where the United states supports the British government in exile in Canada and helps the Russians fight and bleed the Germans in a larger version of the Afghanistan War.

I think Britain in Fatherland is in a state of a "civil war" between Mosley's pro-Nazi government and the British government-in-exile in Canada. Churchill died of old age in Canada.

The U.S. is also supporting the Red Army in the continued Soviet-German War, which is the Reich's version of Vietnam and Afghanistan combined.

[lordroel]

Oct 20, 2023 1:46:02 GMT gillan1220 said:

Oct 19, 2023 17:05:29 GMT lordroel said:

Would it look like the Fatherland novel/movie where the United states supports the British government in exile in Canada and helps the Russians fight and bleed the Germans in a larger version of the Afghanistan War.

I think Britain in Fatherland is in a state of a "civil war" between Mosley's pro-Nazi government and the British government-in-exile in Canada. Churchill died of old age in Canada.

The U.S. is also supporting the Red Army in the continued Soviet-German War, which is the Reich's version of Vietnam and Afghanistan combined.

We can assume there might be a Free French government in Algeria.

[stevep]

Oct 19, 2023 17:05:29 GMT lordroel said:

Oct 18, 2023 18:50:12 GMT Max Sinister said:

Generally: How would US politics change if the nazis won WW2?

Would it look like the Fatherland novel/movie where the United states supports the British government in exile in Canada and helps the Russians fight and bleed the Germans in a larger version of the Afghanistan War.

  A hell of a lot depends on the status of Britain.  Most likely its still formally independent but given a powerful German empire ruling directly or indirectly most of Europe and possibly other areas it could be the government and leadership feels a need to bend with the wind.  If so the US is markedly more isolated even if as probably closely allied with Canada and possibly other parts of the former Commonwealth and Empire.  That could make it turn inwards a lot and possibly being somewhat autocratic itself as the perceived threat is markedly greater.

  If Britain is a close ally of the US in a mutual defence treaty and has its own nukes and probably is still a major player in the ME then the US is probably going to be somewhat more open and used to having an least one significant ally.  I suspect it would probably be more likely to seek to contest German influence in other parts of the world rather than going into hunker down mode so to speak.

[Anastasia]

I don't see America going for isolation after PH and they won't let another power dominate the world without a fight.

[TheRomanSlayer]

Does the US still fight a war against Japan in this case? If yes, then it contributes to the earlier defeat of Japan, though the rest of SE Asia that are still under European colonial rule might take a lot longer in gaining their independence from their respective overlords. If the US doesn't fight a war against Japan, then chances are that the oppressed populations of SE Asia would be more likely to obtain Japanese assistance in their struggle for independence.

[stevep]

Oct 21, 2023 23:53:34 GMT Anastasia said:

I don't see America going for isolation after PH and they won't let another power dominate the world without a fight.

  They might do if they don't enter the European war for whatever reason and after an expensive war against Japan - and under the circumstances it could be more costly to the US than OTL their faced with what seems a massive giant dominating most of Europe and neighbouring areas and lack significant allies.  In that case a hunker down mentality largely centred around preventing any hostile presence in the American continents could seem attractive to many.

[stevep]

Oct 22, 2023 0:08:06 GMT TheRomanSlayer said:

Does the US still fight a war against Japan in this case? If yes, then it contributes to the earlier defeat of Japan, though the rest of SE Asia that are still under European colonial rule might take a lot longer in gaining their independence from their respective overlords. If the US doesn't fight a war against Japan, then chances are that the oppressed populations of SE Asia would be more likely to obtain Japanese assistance in their struggle for independence.

  It would depend on the circumstances but assuming that the Japanese come under enough western economic pressure and with China being supported by the US they feel a need to strike south to gain the resources they need.  In those circumstances - although it would be the wisest thing to do I can't see Japan ignoring US bases, especially the Philippines.  Assuming of course those European colonies aren't under enough German pressure to refuse to take part in an embargo. 

[Max Sinister]

Oct 19, 2023 17:05:29 GMT lordroel said:

Oct 18, 2023 18:50:12 GMT Max Sinister said:

Generally: How would US politics change if the nazis won WW2?

Would it look like the Fatherland novel/movie where the United states supports the British government in exile in Canada and helps the Russians fight and bleed the Germans in a larger version of the Afghanistan War.

Sea Lion is ASB, so no for your first question. Part two - yes, if the border to free Russia is long enough they can't stop them from infiltrating.

Oct 20, 2023 11:21:30 GMT lordroel said:

Oct 20, 2023 1:46:02 GMT gillan1220 said:

I think Britain in Fatherland is in a state of a "civil war" between Mosley's pro-Nazi government and the British government-in-exile in Canada. Churchill died of old age in Canada.

The U.S. is also supporting the Red Army in the continued Soviet-German War, which is the Reich's version of Vietnam and Afghanistan combined.

We can assume there might be a Free French government in Algeria.

Or farther south, if the Axis have the Maghreb.

[Max Sinister]

Oct 20, 2023 1:46:02 GMT gillan1220 said:

Oct 19, 2023 17:05:29 GMT lordroel said:

Would it look like the Fatherland novel/movie where the United states supports the British government in exile in Canada and helps the Russians fight and bleed the Germans in a larger version of the Afghanistan War.

I think Britain in Fatherland is in a state of a "civil war" between Mosley's pro-Nazi government and the British government-in-exile in Canada. Churchill died of old age in Canada.

The U.S. is also supporting the Red Army in the continued Soviet-German War, which is the Reich's version of Vietnam and Afghanistan combined.

Agree with everything, except that my German copy of Fatherland had Charlie state that Churchill is still alive, even when very old. (Based on the assumption that the events won't cost him a few years, but why not.) Now that I think about it, it's strange that Xav(i)er wouldn't know that.