WI: No Dissolution of the Monasteries

[simon darkshade]

What would be some of the short, medium and long term consequences of the dissolution of the monasteries under Henry VIII not occurring?

There would certainly be a difference in the relative concentration of wealth and land, and less of the social impact that saw the Tudor rise in vagrancy.

[stevep]

Jan 10, 2024 8:55:19 GMT simon darkshade said:

What would be some of the short, medium and long term consequences of the dissolution of the monasteries under Henry VIII not occurring?

There would certainly be a difference in the relative concentration of wealth and land, and less of the social impact that saw the Tudor rise in vagrancy.

  Can you have that not happening if the reformation occurs in England?  They would probably be a strong centre of the old faith which is now seen as a threat to the monarchy and its supporters.  Also without them being dissolved there is less incentive for a fair number of people to support the break with Rome as they don't get a share of the loot from their vast wealth. 

  The other alternative is no break with Rome under Henry VIII, but that probably requires Catherine of Aragon producing a surviving son or Henry getting his divorce agreed by the pope despite the opposition of the vastly more powerful Hapsburg ruler Charles V.  In which case does a reformation occur later, possibly in different terms or is Protestantism successfully repressed?

[raharris1973]

stevep: The monasteries and the English Reformation are like oil and water - they don't mix

A logical corollary of @simon darkshade's scenario is Henry VIII remains faithful to Rome, and continued English monasticism is just one of the more interesting side effects.

There's a theory that leaving the monasteries intact could leave British metallurgy in a more advanced state and advance the industrial revolution by supporting continued innovation of the leading edge techniques English monasteries were using for bell-casting at the time.

Allegedly the break-up of the monasteries disrupted this all quite a bit.

So *earlier* industrial revolution due to this and due to less disruption of primary schooling? Inverting the Protestantism as an engine of advancement trope?

Missionary and monastic orders could be another avenue of approach, trade and control of Amerindians more extensive for the English than in OTL too. On the one hand, a never Protestant England may be more deferential to Spanish claims and Papal rulings like Tordesillas, but France was willing to disregard it. An England and Henry VIII not undergoing the upheaval of Reformation may continue the type of trans-Atlantic voyages to North America his father sponsored as a mixed fishing, exploratory, proselytizing operation, later branching out into the fur trade. Sort of like how New France developed in OTL later on.

[halferking]

On the one hand England was governed by Henry VIII and his Army. On the other England was governed by the Church and their Bible.

The Church wielded the Bible like a Jedi wields his light sabre. In an age where people were locked in a mortal struggle for their very souls controlling what they believed and what they thought gave the Monasteries immense power and with that incredible wealth.

This gave rise to an interesting power dynamic. Henry - a strong willed young man and the Church – a powerful wealthy elite. They orbit each other with suspicion the Church, no matter how powerful and wealthy, however was always at the mercy of a determined Monarch. Wolsey found that out by paying with his life.

In the short term: not much would change – Henry relied on Cardinal Wolsey.

In the medium term: The power balance would depend on how well the leaders of the Church were at playing the game.

In the long term: Repeated failure or rather repeated humiliation in the King’s eyes was not something Henry, the proud lion, enjoyed. This may lead to infighting in the Church with factions vying to control the King. The Church would be eager to maintain their lands and riches so selling each other out wouldn’t beyond the realms of possibility.

[stevep]

Jan 13, 2024 2:25:01 GMT raharris1973 said:

stevep : The monasteries and the English Reformation are like oil and water - they don't mix

A logical corollary of @simon darkshade's scenario is Henry VIII remains faithful to Rome, and continued English monasticism is just one of the more interesting side effects.

There's a theory that leaving the monasteries intact could leave British metallurgy in a more advanced state and advance the industrial revolution by supporting continued innovation of the leading edge techniques English monasteries were using for bell-casting at the time.

Allegedly the break-up of the monasteries disrupted this all quite a bit.

So *earlier* industrial revolution due to this and due to less disruption of primary schooling? Inverting the Protestantism as an engine of advancement trope?

Missionary and monastic orders could be another avenue of approach, trade and control of Amerindians more extensive for the English than in OTL too. On the one hand, a never Protestant England may be more deferential to Spanish claims and Papal rulings like Tordesillas, but France was willing to disregard it. An England and Henry VIII not undergoing the upheaval of Reformation may continue the type of trans-Atlantic voyages to North America his father sponsored as a mixed fishing, exploratory, proselytizing operation, later branching out into the fur trade. Sort of like how New France developed in OTL later on.

  I doubt you could have an earlier industrial revolution because too much power and resources would be tied up in the monasteries and the Catholic establishment which would seek to maintain its domination of knowledge.  Whether underground resistance to this could overcome without some level of violent civil war is hard to see but it would be more difficult for that to occur.

  For Henry to stay loyal to the Catholic church would require it meets his interests so either Catherine produces a son or for some reason the Pope permits a divorce and someone other than Ann Boleyn becomes the new queen and provides a male heir.

[raharris1973]

Jan 10, 2024 8:55:19 GMT simon darkshade said:

What would be some of the short, medium and long term consequences of the dissolution of the monasteries under Henry VIII not occurring?

There would certainly be a difference in the relative concentration of wealth and land, and less of the social impact that saw the Tudor rise in vagrancy.

What is the impact of reduced Tudor rise of vagrancy?