lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 18, 2024 15:30:27 GMT
So i was thinking, how would you create a guide for a time travel, like the The Foresight War but then with a guide instead of a person having a lot of information in his head.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 18, 2024 18:21:00 GMT
So i was thinking, how would you create a guide for a time travel, like the The Foresight War but then with a guide instead of a person having a lot of information in his head.
Well I think it would depend on who you want to win and how. Not just in terms of one or more nations or groups but also what sort of society emerges successful from the war. For example for Britain would you want a revived conservatism of some kind similar to what had dominated the country for the last century, a socialist Labour with the welfare states and government intervention to help those in need or some other option? Similarly do you want a collective victory for that nation or one where just about everybody else is gravely weakened compared to OTL - which I assume is the base line the people are coming from - or just some areas/powers more exhausted than OTL.
The next thing would be how is this guide available to the traveler? Some sort of internal knowledge artificially made permanently available to him/her, old physical formats such as books, or something electronic - which would be more compact and could persuade down-timers by how advanced it is but might be difficult to maintain.
Then what information would you want them to have. Knowledge of whom to contact and how to influence those people as to accept what your saying and presumably what advice they give. Which again depends on what the aims of the person would be. One thing I disliked about the initial Foresight War was that the advice was to accept the fall of France and western Europe rather than avoid it - as is happening, albeit not due to [known] ASB intervention - in 575's TL where Hitler's desired autumn 39 attack on France occurs - when the latter option would be relatively easy and better for most of the world, at least in the short term. - If I was in that position I would definitely prefer avoiding the massive destruction and the wear on Britain resulting from such a long and costly conflict, let alone how it so greatly weakened Britain for the disaster in the far east.
There are probably other matters that would be relevant on the question and they would differ depending on which nation or group you want wanked and what sort of win you want. However my initial thoughts. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 18, 2024 18:26:13 GMT
So i was thinking, how would you create a guide for a time travel, like the The Foresight War but then with a guide instead of a person having a lot of information in his head. Well I think it would depend on who you want to win and how. Not just in terms of one or more nations or groups but also what sort of society emerges successful from the war. For example for Britain would you want a revived conservatism of some kind similar to what had dominated the country for the last century, a socialist Labour with the welfare states and government intervention to help those in need or some other option? Similarly do you want a collective victory for that nation or one where just about everybody else is gravely weakened compared to OTL - which I assume is the base line the people are coming from - or just some areas/powers more exhausted than OTL. The next thing would be how is this guide available to the traveler? Some sort of internal knowledge artificially made permanently available to him/her, old physical formats such as books, or something electronic - which would be more compact and could persuade down-timers by how advanced it is but might be difficult to maintain. Then what information would you want them to have. Knowledge of whom to contact and how to influence those people as to accept what your saying and presumably what advice they give. Which again depends on what the aims of the person would be. One thing I disliked about the initial Foresight War was that the advice was to accept the fall of France and western Europe rather than avoid it - as is happening, albeit not due to [known] ASB intervention - in 575's TL where Hitler's desired autumn 39 attack on France occurs - when the latter option would be relatively easy and better for most of the world, at least in the short term. - If I was in that position I would definitely prefer avoiding the massive destruction and the wear on Britain resulting from such a long and costly conflict, let alone how it so greatly weakened Britain for the disaster in the far east. There are probably other matters that would be relevant on the question and they would differ depending on which nation or group you want wanked and what sort of win you want. However my initial thoughts. All good points as always stevep. Something like this but, not for Dummies: World War II For Dummies |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 18, 2024 18:58:21 GMT
Well I think it would depend on who you want to win and how. Not just in terms of one or more nations or groups but also what sort of society emerges successful from the war. For example for Britain would you want a revived conservatism of some kind similar to what had dominated the country for the last century, a socialist Labour with the welfare states and government intervention to help those in need or some other option? Similarly do you want a collective victory for that nation or one where just about everybody else is gravely weakened compared to OTL - which I assume is the base line the people are coming from - or just some areas/powers more exhausted than OTL. The next thing would be how is this guide available to the traveler? Some sort of internal knowledge artificially made permanently available to him/her, old physical formats such as books, or something electronic - which would be more compact and could persuade down-timers by how advanced it is but might be difficult to maintain. Then what information would you want them to have. Knowledge of whom to contact and how to influence those people as to accept what your saying and presumably what advice they give. Which again depends on what the aims of the person would be. One thing I disliked about the initial Foresight War was that the advice was to accept the fall of France and western Europe rather than avoid it - as is happening, albeit not due to [known] ASB intervention - in 575's TL where Hitler's desired autumn 39 attack on France occurs - when the latter option would be relatively easy and better for most of the world, at least in the short term. - If I was in that position I would definitely prefer avoiding the massive destruction and the wear on Britain resulting from such a long and costly conflict, let alone how it so greatly weakened Britain for the disaster in the far east. There are probably other matters that would be relevant on the question and they would differ depending on which nation or group you want wanked and what sort of win you want. However my initial thoughts. All good points as always stevep. Something like this but, not for Dummies: World War II For Dummies
OK thanks. That gives a clearer view of what's required. Still have to have separate sections for what nation/leaders you would want to influence/persuade to your arguments. Obviously going to be different trying to influence one of the western democracies compared to say Hitler, Stalin or the assorted collection of maniacs who had power in Japan in the 30's. Could be interesting trying somewhere where the traveler wants to influence France or Italy.  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 18, 2024 18:59:57 GMT
OK thanks. That gives a clearer view of what's required. Still have to have separate sections for what nation/leaders you would want to influence/persuade to your arguments. Obviously going to be different trying to influence one of the western democracies compared to say Hitler, Stalin or the assorted collection of maniacs who had power in Japan in the 30's. Could be interesting trying somewhere where the traveler wants to influence France or Italy. Well a short description/ timeline of the war i was thinking with maps and of course the weapons that where build ore that could be useful. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 18, 2024 19:41:13 GMT
Think it very much depends upon who You are trying to reach. When in time to distribut to and whom. Depending upon political outlook of recipient stuff will be digested in different ways. It will also be dependent upon the generally outlook of the recipient - what is their position in society. To some Stalin was actually a greater threat initially then the Fascists - he would steal their votes and rock society where the fascists and other conservatives wanted to retain traditional societal values though also promoting others. One thing to tell the story in retrospect - another to understand it in the day and age and respond to it. Don't even think AI would help any here! |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 18, 2024 19:46:12 GMT
Think it very much depends upon who You are trying to reach. When in time to distribut to and whom. Depending upon political outlook of recipient stuff will be digested in different ways. It will also be dependent upon the generally outlook of the recipient - what is their position in society. To some Stalin was actually a greater threat initially then the Fascists - he would steal their votes and rock society where the fascists and other conservatives wanted to retain traditional societal values though also promoting others. One thing to tell the story in retrospect - another to understand it in the day and age and respond to it. Don't even think AI would help any here! Well then a guide must focus on things that are less effect by any butterfly, like weapons build sevral years earlier than OTL. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 18, 2024 20:01:46 GMT
Think it very much depends upon who You are trying to reach. When in time to distribut to and whom. Depending upon political outlook of recipient stuff will be digested in different ways. It will also be dependent upon the generally outlook of the recipient - what is their position in society. To some Stalin was actually a greater threat initially then the Fascists - he would steal their votes and rock society where the fascists and other conservatives wanted to retain traditional societal values though also promoting others. One thing to tell the story in retrospect - another to understand it in the day and age and respond to it. Don't even think AI would help any here! Well then a guide must focus on things that are less effect by any butterfly, like weapons build sevral years earlier than OTL. Well I actually meant that You'd have to make a number of copies as to recipient - will be one stack of manuals several in each language if You try succeed. Fun thing would be when recipients realize that another version have been sent to their political adversaries.. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 18, 2024 20:04:08 GMT
Well then a guide must focus on things that are less effect by any butterfly, like weapons build sevral years earlier than OTL. Well I actually meant that You'd have to make a number of copies as to recipient - will be one stack of manuals several in each language if You try succeed. Fun thing would be when recipients realize that another version have been sent to their political adversaries.. Well that would be interesting, like a copy appearing in Germany, United Kingdom, Japan, Italy, Soviet Union, United States and of course France. But all copies except them being in the recipient native language would contain the same guide to World War II. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 18, 2024 20:15:32 GMT
Well I actually meant that You'd have to make a number of copies as to recipient - will be one stack of manuals several in each language if You try succeed. Fun thing would be when recipients realize that another version have been sent to their political adversaries.. Well that would be interesting, like a copy appearing in Germany, United Kingdom, Japan, Italy, Soviet Union, United States and of course France. But all copies except them being in the recipient native language would contain the same guide to World War II. OK - may seem the nitpicker here but as You headed it as Allies/Axis I expected it to be editions for either with their local different interest groups of course depending upon when to ship off the merchandise. That would make them different editions a base for those wanting an Allied victory, another for wanting an Axis victory, another for socialists in Allied/Axis states wanting essentially to change government and how to do things so as not to tumble the fragile house of cards so ruin society and ensure opponent victory etc. - with of course special editions for Soviet communists/counterrevolutionaries/bourgeois etc. etc. etc. I know would really make a mess!
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 18, 2024 20:17:18 GMT
Well that would be interesting, like a copy appearing in Germany, United Kingdom, Japan, Italy, Soviet Union, United States and of course France. But all copies except them being in the recipient native language would contain the same guide to World War II. OK - may seem the nitpicker here but as You headed it as Allies/Axis I expected it to be editions for either with their local different interest groups of course depending upon when to ship off the merchandise. That would make them different editions a base for those wanting an Allied victory, another for wanting an Axis victory, another for socialists in Allied/Axis states wanting essentially to change government and how to do things so as not to tumble the fragile house of cards so ruin society and ensure opponent victory etc. - with of course special editions for Soviet communists/counterrevolutionaries/bourgeois etc. etc. etc. I know would really make a mess!
Interesting, having OTL information in the guides would totally change the course of any war to come. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 18, 2024 20:34:47 GMT
OK - may seem the nitpicker here but as You headed it as Allies/Axis I expected it to be editions for either with their local different interest groups of course depending upon when to ship off the merchandise. That would make them different editions a base for those wanting an Allied victory, another for wanting an Axis victory, another for socialists in Allied/Axis states wanting essentially to change government and how to do things so as not to tumble the fragile house of cards so ruin society and ensure opponent victory etc. - with of course special editions for Soviet communists/counterrevolutionaries/bourgeois etc. etc. etc. I know would really make a mess!
Interesting, having OTL information in the guides would totally change the course of any war to come. Well if You try to change the course of the war You will change the course of history as such.
If You manage to avoid WWII or have the Western Allies stop and defeat the Germans it will lead to another world than the one we live in today. I think there is a number of TLs around here of a world without WWII or early end to it and each I expect to have an outcome different from OTL. My "A Window of Opportunity" is just one such. Not necessarily in our of todays perception but an outcome of a change world.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 18, 2024 20:37:08 GMT
Well then a guide must focus on things that are less effect by any butterfly, like weapons build sevral years earlier than OTL. Well I actually meant that You'd have to make a number of copies as to recipient - will be one stack of manuals several in each language if You try succeed. Fun thing would be when recipients realize that another version have been sent to their political adversaries.. Well this is awkward, create a guide to help win World War II but there might be a chance that it avoids the war. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 18, 2024 20:52:20 GMT
Well I actually meant that You'd have to make a number of copies as to recipient - will be one stack of manuals several in each language if You try succeed. Fun thing would be when recipients realize that another version have been sent to their political adversaries.. Well this is awkward, create a guide to help win World War II but there might be a chance that it avoids the war. All really depends upon when the book arrive. I just assumed that helping to win might jump off pre-was as a way to have better armed Western Allies - Britain and France or Soviets. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 18, 2024 23:06:33 GMT
Well I actually meant that You'd have to make a number of copies as to recipient - will be one stack of manuals several in each language if You try succeed. Fun thing would be when recipients realize that another version have been sent to their political adversaries.. Well this is awkward, create a guide to help win World War II but there might be a chance that it avoids the war.
I would say that once Hitler and the Nazis gain power its going to be difficult to avoid war in Europe, probably similarly in the Pacific with the militarists in Japan as well. At least unless other nations are persuaded not to fight them which I would consider am even worse disaster for the world. Mind you if Germany is defeated fairly quickly, assuming fighting doesn't begin prior to 1-9-39 how is the status of Europe especially compared to the USSR? If its too weaken and divided you could end up with a move by Stalin sometime in the early/mid 40's - assuming that the time-traveler is someone aiding the western powers.
The differing viewpoints for different groups is something I mentioned earlier and it all depends on how many people. from different groups go back in time? In the original Foresight War of course there were two people sent back, without initially knowing of the other's existence, which complicated matters for both sides. Unless you assume parallel universes - which you must to a degree to avoid the grandfather paradox and possibly also multiple such universes with each traveler triggering a separate universe.
Which brings up one question in terms of the motivation of the person/group creating and handing out such packs? If your got an ASB handing out dozens or more and allowing people to go back in time and experiment/play your going to have chaos and if your opening up such operations to people from many opposing groups what is their purpose in doing so?
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