A Tolkien and Middle Earth Thread

[simon darkshade]

On Tom: There absolutely needs to be more than a humorous caricature, but Williams, when he had dramatic roles, could do a heck of a job. It would need not just his best, but a deft script and some excellent camera + lighting + sound to show that this fellow is something Important.
- We can all agree that giving Sauron a human form is just silly
- Culkin and De Caprio would have been around some interesting ages for Merry and Pippin, but I really don’t think either quite had the acting chops for it at that point in terms of the serious part of their roles
- Gyllenhaal as Frodo is a bad idea and frankly unnecessary, considering he was all of a month older than Elijah Wood; the latter had a much longer and much more impressive acting record leading into LotR and did a very good job of his role

[American hist]

My family is watching The Return of the King, the Lord of the Rings trilogy extended edition. To think of it, I may have only watched Return of the King and 2 Towers under the extended edition, but I have not seen the Fellowship of the Rings extended edition until recently.

It's a masterpiece—I will give you that! I wish The Hobbit was as well done as the Lord of the Rings trilogy. However, the Hobbit movie trilogy is dragged out, while the book is just right for children. While I'm not really much into video games, one of the best games, at least a really good one, was Battle for Medieval Earth.

What Tolkien should have done was design some of his books for young adults.

We eat like a HOBBIT for a day AND IT NEARLY KILLS US!!! | Functional Fandom from Shadowversity. By just eating those 7 meals a day, they portray the lifestyle of a hobbit pretty well. However, the commits are just as interesting as well.

Some dietitians recommend eating as many as five meals a day, one of which was my love, which would have helped her lose weight as the portions would have been small. However, it's no surprise a hobbit would have stayed in the shire as they love comfort food,home, and sunshine,but I repeat myself.

in a lord of the Rings roleplaying game, I'm going to be a hobbit who hered of bilbos stories

the 90s lord of the Rings would have destroyed the franchise with the selection of cast mell Gibson would have been an interesting, though fortunately not picked for the part. Nicolas cadge would have been terrible for this movie, I think!

I would have liked tom bomadel ,but robin willams isn't the right man for I dont remember the farmer was funny from listing to the audio book some years ago

[simon darkshade]

Young adults as a market for books did not exist in Professor Tolkien’s lifetime.

The reference to “ We eat like a HOBBIT for a day AND IT NEARLY KILLS US!!!” seems to be from Shadiversity, rather than anything with Shadows. The hobbit diet is based on that of an English gentleman of a certain era and not quite what Shad, Oz, Nathan and the other bloke are having. Rather, it isn’t even the American fangirl guesstimate, which does the rounds on some blogs, but just a paid promotion for a ready meal supplier.

First breakfast: A thick American style pancake, bacon and tomatoes
Second breakfast: Scrambled eggs and bacon
Elevenses: Italian beef burgers
Luncheon: Panko crusted chicken, mashed carrot and sweet potato and broccolini
Tea: Salami, cheese, grapes and crackers
Dinner: Sirloin steak, bearnaise sauce, potatoes and broccolini
Supper: Asian sesame seed encrusted trout with garlic rice and more broccolini

None of those, apart from the second breakfast, are anything LOTR, ME or fantasy related.

A more authentic version of the Hobbit Day in Meals wouldn’t be a real problem:

Breakfast: Bacon, eggs, sausages, tomatoes, mushrooms, potatoes, fried bread, tea, bread, butter, jam
Second breakfast: Sausages, hard boiled eggs, cheese, bread, butter, tea
Elevenses: Bread, butter, cheese, ham, apple
Luncheon: Soup, roast beef, potatoes, carrots, peas, mushrooms, gravy, bread, pudding
Tea: A slice of seed cake, tea sandwich, toast, biscuits, scones, tea
Dinner: Fried fish, potatoes, carrots, cabbage, cauliflower, apple pie
Supper: Pork pie, cold chicken, eggs, cheese, salad, apple tarts

For a human, and one who actually works or moves through the day, that could be done with sensible portion control.

[American hist]

An interesting idea what if The elves were at the battle of Helms deep In the book. Realistic would it have been had the elves actually helped Rohan.

What other strategies could Rohan have done Besides backing themselves in a corner?

[stevep]

Aug 4, 2024 3:47:05 GMT American hist said:

An interesting idea what if The elves were at the battle of Helms deep In the book. Realistic would it have been had the elves actually helped Rohan.

What other strategies could Rohan have done Besides backing themselves in a corner?

  Well that was the view of the film, for whatever reason Jackson put it in.  In the book its substantially different.  See here, which is the 1st in a 8 part study of the logistics and logic of the book and film operations in the Helm's Deep campaign.

  The basic issue in the book was that Theoden was headng west with substantial reinforcements for his army holding the Fords of the Isen against Sauraman's forces when he heard of the defeat of the forces there.  He wasn't evacuating his entire capital's population towards a war zone.  Because the initial reports of the defeat were so bad it sounded like his forces wouldn't be strong enough to meet the enemy in ope battle.  However Helm's Deep stood at the entrance to the Hornsburg not its end so a largely cavalry force based there would be able to raid out against any smaller enemy forces seeking to raid eastwards toward the Rohan heart territories or sweep away any light besieging force.  So the enemy had to besiege with the vast bulk of their force - which is what they did.

  For whatever reason Jackson sought to paint Theoden as an idiot despite him being an experienced leader - once he had shaken off Wormtongue's influence.  Possibly to make the non-cannon arrival of the elves seem a vital measure - despite the idiotic way he has them preform in the actual battle.  Also he had Aragorn among others openly mocking Theoden's decisions - possibly even thinking this displayed Aragorn as a 'better' general??  Actually an even more experienced general such as Aragorn would never do so publicly - even if he thought Theoden was wrong he would argue the case privately as such public riddical would be both divisive and bad for moral.  Similarly rather than mock him for the decision to go to Helm's Deep it was Gandalf to actually suggested the army head there.

  As you will see if you watch the linked videos Jackson does a number of things to make Theoden look an idiot but that is definitely non-canon and shows him as pretty ignorant of what a skilled general in such a situation would actually do - as he also shows errors in the related series on the Siege of Gondor.  Tolkien definitely had a better understanding of what armies and leaders needed to do in warfare, probably helped by his own experience in WWI.  Devereaux - the writer of those articles - gives some reasons why Jackson makes some of the errors he does, the question of health and safety in modern films and the different needs of films for big action scenes as compared to books but Jackson still shows up as distinctly superficial in his treatment of the story.

  Sorry to go off on what may seen a tangent but the lack of logic as well as numerous pointless or idiotic departures from the book make the films very disappointing and frustrating for me.

  In terms of elves turning up to help they would have to come from Imladris as the elves of Lothian and Mirkwood were too heavily engaged themselves.  Elrond had some very powerful characters gathered around him but they were relatively few in number.  The only other source might be Cirdan's Haven but that's too far away for an urgent call.  As such you would probably have a force as small as the band of about 50 rangers in the Grey Company that answered the summons they perceived was from Aragorn, especially since both Elrond's elves and the Rangers were also busy in their general role of protecting the people of Eriador against the assorted orcs, trolls and other dangers that lurked in that largely abandon land.  Therefore while their individual skills would be unmatched they would probably be most effective as small raiding groups or as a small but key part of the larger army.

[American hist]

Aug 4, 2024 9:30:06 GMT stevep said:

Aug 4, 2024 3:47:05 GMT American hist said:

An interesting idea what if The elves were at the battle of Helms deep In the book. Realistic would it have been had the elves actually helped Rohan.

What other strategies could Rohan have done Besides backing themselves in a corner?

  Well that was the view of the film, for whatever reason Jackson put it in.  In the book its substantially different.  See here, which is the 1st in a 8 part study of the logistics and logic of the book and film operations in the Helm's Deep campaign.

  The basic issue in the book was that Theoden was headng west with substantial reinforcements for his army holding the Fords of the Isen against Sauraman's forces when he heard of the defeat of the forces there.  He wasn't evacuating his entire capital's population towards a war zone.  Because the initial reports of the defeat were so bad it sounded like his forces wouldn't be strong enough to meet the enemy in ope battle.  However Helm's Deep stood at the entrance to the Hornsburg not its end so a largely cavalry force based there would be able to raid out against any smaller enemy forces seeking to raid eastwards toward the Rohan heart territories or sweep away any light besieging force.  So the enemy had to besiege with the vast bulk of their force - which is what they did.

  For whatever reason Jackson sought to paint Theoden as an idiot despite him being an experienced leader - once he had shaken off Wormtongue's influence.  Possibly to make the non-cannon arrival of the elves seem a vital measure - despite the idiotic way he has them preform in the actual battle.  Also he had Aragorn among others openly mocking Theoden's decisions - possibly even thinking this displayed Aragorn as a 'better' general??  Actually an even more experienced general such as Aragorn would never do so publicly - even if he thought Theoden was wrong he would argue the case privately as such public riddical would be both divisive and bad for moral.  Similarly rather than mock him for the decision to go to Helm's Deep it was Gandalf to actually suggested the army head there.

  As you will see if you watch the linked videos Jackson does a number of things to make Theoden look an idiot but that is definitely non-canon and shows him as pretty ignorant of what a skilled general in such a situation would actually do - as he also shows errors in the related series on the Siege of Gondor.  Tolkien definitely had a better understanding of what armies and leaders needed to do in warfare, probably helped by his own experience in WWI.  Devereaux - the writer of those articles - gives some reasons why Jackson makes some of the errors he does, the question of health and safety in modern films and the different needs of films for big action scenes as compared to books but Jackson still shows up as distinctly superficial in his treatment of the story.

  Sorry to go off on what may seen a tangent but the lack of logic as well as numerous pointless or idiotic departures from the book make the films very disappointing and frustrating for me.

  In terms of elves turning up to help they would have to come from Imladris as the elves of Lothian and Mirkwood were too heavily engaged themselves.  Elrond had some very powerful characters gathered around him but they were relatively few in number.  The only other source might be Cirdan's Haven but that's too far away for an urgent call.  As such you would probably have a force as small as the band of about 50 rangers in the Grey Company that answered the summons they perceived was from Aragorn, especially since both Elrond's elves and the Rangers were also busy in their general role of protecting the people of Eriador against the assorted orcs, trolls and other dangers that lurked in that largely abandon land.  Therefore while their individual skills and would be unmatched they would probably be most effective as small raiding groups or as a small but key part of the larger army.

You know, what you speak of sounds very similar to the Lord of the Rings video game. My brothers used to play Battle for Middle Earth. I have not played that game, but the bad guys have a campaign for a reason, and from the narrative of the game, the forces retreat to Helmes Deep.

I have not read the book, nor do I have time to read it anymore; however, would the elves in the Rivendell area be better suited to help the elves in Mirkwood? I was talking with some friends about what if the players and I did an RPG Lord of the Rings campaign sometimes where we are with the fellowship or at least see them, similar to how the video game is, where you control factions. The players didn’t like the idea for some reason. Had we done so we would have incorporated both the movies and the books.


For example, if we did that, we would be from Gondor. Sam and Frodo would help us, but we would be doing other missions that either are related to or are not related to the main plot of the book.

Is such a role-playing suggestion possible in your opinion?

[stevep]

Aug 18, 2024 3:59:46 GMT American hist said:

Aug 4, 2024 9:30:06 GMT stevep said:

  Well that was the view of the film, for whatever reason Jackson put it in.  In the book its substantially different.  See here, which is the 1st in a 8 part study of the logistics and logic of the book and film operations in the Helm's Deep campaign.

  The basic issue in the book was that Theoden was headng west with substantial reinforcements for his army holding the Fords of the Isen against Sauraman's forces when he heard of the defeat of the forces there.  He wasn't evacuating his entire capital's population towards a war zone.  Because the initial reports of the defeat were so bad it sounded like his forces wouldn't be strong enough to meet the enemy in ope battle.  However Helm's Deep stood at the entrance to the Hornsburg not its end so a largely cavalry force based there would be able to raid out against any smaller enemy forces seeking to raid eastwards toward the Rohan heart territories or sweep away any light besieging force.  So the enemy had to besiege with the vast bulk of their force - which is what they did.

  For whatever reason Jackson sought to paint Theoden as an idiot despite him being an experienced leader - once he had shaken off Wormtongue's influence.  Possibly to make the non-cannon arrival of the elves seem a vital measure - despite the idiotic way he has them preform in the actual battle.  Also he had Aragorn among others openly mocking Theoden's decisions - possibly even thinking this displayed Aragorn as a 'better' general??  Actually an even more experienced general such as Aragorn would never do so publicly - even if he thought Theoden was wrong he would argue the case privately as such public riddical would be both divisive and bad for moral.  Similarly rather than mock him for the decision to go to Helm's Deep it was Gandalf to actually suggested the army head there.

  As you will see if you watch the linked videos Jackson does a number of things to make Theoden look an idiot but that is definitely non-canon and shows him as pretty ignorant of what a skilled general in such a situation would actually do - as he also shows errors in the related series on the Siege of Gondor.  Tolkien definitely had a better understanding of what armies and leaders needed to do in warfare, probably helped by his own experience in WWI.  Devereaux - the writer of those articles - gives some reasons why Jackson makes some of the errors he does, the question of health and safety in modern films and the different needs of films for big action scenes as compared to books but Jackson still shows up as distinctly superficial in his treatment of the story.

  Sorry to go off on what may seen a tangent but the lack of logic as well as numerous pointless or idiotic departures from the book make the films very disappointing and frustrating for me.

  In terms of elves turning up to help they would have to come from Imladris as the elves of Lothian and Mirkwood were too heavily engaged themselves.  Elrond had some very powerful characters gathered around him but they were relatively few in number.  The only other source might be Cirdan's Haven but that's too far away for an urgent call.  As such you would probably have a force as small as the band of about 50 rangers in the Grey Company that answered the summons they perceived was from Aragorn, especially since both Elrond's elves and the Rangers were also busy in their general role of protecting the people of Eriador against the assorted orcs, trolls and other dangers that lurked in that largely abandon land.  Therefore while their individual skills and would be unmatched they would probably be most effective as small raiding groups or as a small but key part of the larger army.

You know what would you speak of sounds very similar to the Lord of the rings video game my brothers used to play Battle for middle earth. I have not play that game but the bad guys have a campaign for a reason which from the narrative of the game the forces retreat to helmes deep.

I have not read the book nor do I have time to read it anymore however wooden valves in Rivendell area be better suited to help the elves in Mirkwood? I was talking with some friends what if me and the players good Lord of the rings campaign sometimes with the fellowship or at least see them similar to how the video game is where are you control factions. The players didn’t like the idea for some reason. Had we done so we would have incorporated both the movies and the books .


For example if we did that we were from Gondor Sam Fraser us but we are doing another missions that either are related or not related to the main plot of the book.

Is such a role-playing suggestion possible in your opinion?

  I'm not quite sure what your saying.  Is the above meant to be "would elves".  Sound's like a classic auto-corrupt occurence If so then quite possibly.  Its not clear what Elrond's people did during the war.  However the problem would be the Misty Mtns being in the way.  Even after Gandalf killed the Balrog Moria was still home to large numbers of orcs and probably trolls and there are issues like the lurker in the deep. It was suggested that the dwarves could clear Moria after Sauron fell and reclaim it for themselves but then again the idea is that the non-humans are fading people who disappear.  - Sorry getting slight off subject but there's no way to get from Imladris around to the Anduin valley other than by the old path through the ruins of Angmar.

  In terms of the 2nd part I don't know the game but you seem to be suggesting that in it characters from Gondor still alive in Shelob's lair could be rescued by Sam and then either join Frodo and Sam or go west to help out an Helm's Deep?  The problem with the former is that humans would be too recognizable for the way the pair sneaked into Mordor, being mistaken for small orcs at times so they couldn't really be of any help.  For the 2nd the battle at Helm's Deep is happening pretty much at the same time so they wouldn't have time to reach it.  They might be able to make their way west and join up with Aragon's army after the battle of the Pelennor Fields as I doubt they could sneak past the hordes of Sauron's forces before the battle.  - At least it would be highly unlikely in 'real' life but possibly in a game based on the story.

[American hist]

Aug 18, 2024 11:30:51 GMT stevep said:

Aug 18, 2024 3:59:46 GMT American hist said:

You know what would you speak of sounds very similar to the Lord of the rings video game my brothers used to play Battle for middle earth. I have not play that game but the bad guys have a campaign for a reason which from the narrative of the game the forces retreat to helmes deep.

I have not read the book nor do I have time to read it anymore however wooden valves in Rivendell area be better suited to help the elves in Mirkwood? I was talking with some friends what if me and the players good Lord of the rings campaign sometimes with the fellowship or at least see them similar to how the video game is where are you control factions. The players didn’t like the idea for some reason. Had we done so we would have incorporated both the movies and the books .


For example if we did that we were from Gondor Sam Fraser us but we are doing another missions that either are related or not related to the main plot of the book.

Is such a role-playing suggestion possible in your opinion?

  I'm not quite sure what your saying.  Is the above meant to be "would elves".  Sound's like a classic auto-corrupt occurence If so then quite possibly.  Its not clear what Elrond's people did during the war.  However the problem would be the Misty Mtns being in the way.  Even after Gandalf killed the Balrog Moria was still home to large numbers of orcs and probably trolls and there are issues like the lurker in the deep. It was suggested that the dwarves could clear Moria after Sauron fell and reclaim it for themselves but then again the idea is that the non-humans are fading people who disappear.  - Sorry getting slight off subject but there's no way to get from Imladris around to the Anduin valley other than by the old path through the ruins of Angmar.

  In terms of the 2nd part I don't know the game but you seem to be suggesting that in it characters from Gondor still alive in Shelob's lair could be rescued by Sam and then either join Frodo and Sam or go west to help out an Helm's Deep?  The problem with the former is that humans would be too recognizable for the way the pair sneaked into Mordor, being mistaken for small orcs at times so they couldn't really be of any help.  For the 2nd the battle at Helm's Deep is happening pretty much at the same time so they wouldn't have time to reach it.  They might be able to make their way west and join up with Aragon's army after the battle of the Pelennor Fields as I doubt they could sneak past the hordes of Sauron's forces before the battle.  - At least it would be highly unlikely in 'real' life but possibly in a game based on the story.

/As for the RPG, it is the lord of the Rings edition. Well, I am not going to give vivid details of this plan because it was rejected . Suppose we were Gondor soldiers trapped in the spider web and then rescued by Sam,but perhaps we went separate ways and possibly returned home. idk. Helms deep I like where where adventures sent to protect the fellowship and are sometimes behind there tale .

A idea would be if the party to protect the fellowship was fighting the goblins in the mines

[simon darkshade]

One trailer made with AI kicks the stuffing out of what Amazon spent 250 million making in terms of tone, fidelity and imagery.

[stevep]

Aug 28, 2024 16:43:00 GMT simon darkshade said:

One trailer made with AI kicks the stuffing out of what Amazon spent 250 million making in terms of tone, fidelity and imagery.

  Looks lovely, as does the Silmarillion trailer.  Only problem is given the scope of the latter, much, much larger than LotRs you would probably need probably 6-9 films to do it anything like justice.

[Max Sinister]

Apr 24, 2024 21:56:16 GMT Max Sinister said:

Some thought about sth. completely different but on-topic: Many people have pointed out the similarity of the events in the Hobbit and LOTR with the one or other world war. Now I'm wondering... if there was an ATL where the Allies lost WW2 or WW1, what kind of story would Tolkien write then? A story where the bad guys win as well, so the good folks have to flee to the west? Admit it, it does make sense. (And readers in this ATL might state "If we hadn't lost the war, Tolkien's stories would be about elves and hobbits etc. living forever in peace and harmony in Middle-Earth...)

Another thought about an alt-LOTR: Maybe Tolkien would find if WW2 goes bad for the Allies that he can't even write a book where the good side wins, even if the victory tastes bitter, so he might decide to write a story about the First or Second Age instead - to be specific, about the time when Melkor or Sauron ruled Middle-Earth.

[stevep]

Sept 13, 2024 23:53:27 GMT Max Sinister said:

Apr 24, 2024 21:56:16 GMT Max Sinister said:

Some thought about sth. completely different but on-topic: Many people have pointed out the similarity of the events in the Hobbit and LOTR with the one or other world war. Now I'm wondering... if there was an ATL where the Allies lost WW2 or WW1, what kind of story would Tolkien write then? A story where the bad guys win as well, so the good folks have to flee to the west? Admit it, it does make sense. (And readers in this ATL might state "If we hadn't lost the war, Tolkien's stories would be about elves and hobbits etc. living forever in peace and harmony in Middle-Earth...)

Another thought about an alt-LOTR: Maybe Tolkien would find if WW2 goes bad for the Allies that he can't even write a book where the good side wins, even if the victory tastes bitter, so he might decide to write a story about the First or Second Age instead - to be specific, about the time when Melkor or Sauron ruled Middle-Earth.

  Well in both the 1st and 2nd ages the victories were probably more Pyrrhic than that in LofRs.  Or is that what you mean.  An even more costly WWII means that he pays more attention to an even more costly victory in ME?

  Part of the issue is possibly that of course the Hobbit came 1st and that was set in the 3rd Age and it led to the focus of LotR as a much larger successor to it.  Also for Tolkien I think it was his experience in WWI that really occupied his mind rather than the latter conflict and that's not likely to change.

[Max Sinister]

Sept 14, 2024 8:00:06 GMT stevep said:

Sept 13, 2024 23:53:27 GMT Max Sinister said:

Another thought about an alt-LOTR: Maybe Tolkien would find if WW2 goes bad for the Allies that he can't even write a book where the good side wins, even if the victory tastes bitter, so he might decide to write a story about the First or Second Age instead - to be specific, about the time when Melkor or Sauron ruled Middle-Earth.

  Well in both the 1st and 2nd ages the victories were probably more Pyrrhic than that in LofRs.  Or is that what you mean.  An even more costly WWII means that he pays more attention to an even more costly victory in ME?

  Part of the issue is possibly that of course the Hobbit came 1st and that was set in the 3rd Age and it led to the focus of LotR as a much larger successor to it.  Also for Tolkien I think it was his experience in WWI that really occupied his mind rather than the latter conflict and that's not likely to change.

That's the question. Let's say the war between Nazis and Anglos ends in mid-1943, when the latter have to admit defeat. Tolkien would be around 50, then. I don't think he'd be too old to learn that worse things than he knew so far have happened. It would be a huge shock - as said elsewhere, the biggest defeat of the Empire since 1783, if not 1453!

I can't imagine he'd just write a similar story ITTL.

[stevep]

Sept 14, 2024 15:21:51 GMT Max Sinister said:

Sept 14, 2024 8:00:06 GMT stevep said:

  Well in both the 1st and 2nd ages the victories were probably more Pyrrhic than that in LofRs.  Or is that what you mean.  An even more costly WWII means that he pays more attention to an even more costly victory in ME?

  Part of the issue is possibly that of course the Hobbit came 1st and that was set in the 3rd Age and it led to the focus of LotR as a much larger successor to it.  Also for Tolkien I think it was his experience in WWI that really occupied his mind rather than the latter conflict and that's not likely to change.

That's the question. Let's say the war between Nazis and Anglos ends in mid-1943, when the latter have to admit defeat. Tolkien would be around 50, then. I don't think he'd be too old to learn that worse things than he knew so far have happened. It would be a huge shock - as said elsewhere, the biggest defeat of the Empire since 1783, if not 1453!

I can't imagine he'd just write a similar story ITTL.

  Ah I see your point here.  I think he would want a story in which good ultimately triumphed - both for reasons of his own viewpoint and also probably because he felt he and other people wanted such stories to inspire them in such dark times.  Especially since things would be grim for Britain there even if we escaped occupation as we would be a lone outpost on the verge of a large and very dark empire.  

  In that case something like the 1st Age struggle could well fit into this new view given the level of devastation and the almost total success of Melkor before the Valar finally decided to intervene and that final war was distinctly Pyrrhic as yes Melkor was defeated and his armies scattered but the entire land that the war was fought over was literally destroyed.

  I was a bit confused by the 1453 date for a moment as I initially though of the final fall of Constantinople - which we had nothing to do with, honest Gov - then remembered it was also the date when the last revolt of the Gascony lords against French rule failed and is taken as the formal end of the Hundred Years War.

[Max Sinister]

Sept 14, 2024 21:47:29 GMT stevep said:

Sept 14, 2024 15:21:51 GMT Max Sinister said:

That's the question. Let's say the war between Nazis and Anglos ends in mid-1943, when the latter have to admit defeat. Tolkien would be around 50, then. I don't think he'd be too old to learn that worse things than he knew so far have happened. It would be a huge shock - as said elsewhere, the biggest defeat of the Empire since 1783, if not 1453!

I can't imagine he'd just write a similar story ITTL.

  Ah I see your point here.  I think he would want a story in which good ultimately triumphed - both for reasons of his own viewpoint and also probably because he felt he and other people wanted such stories to inspire them in such dark times.  Especially since things would be grim for Britain there even if we escaped occupation as we would be a lone outpost on the verge of a large and very dark empire.  

  In that case something like the 1st Age struggle could well fit into this new view given the level of devastation and the almost total success of Melkor before the Valar finally decided to intervene and that final war was distinctly Pyrrhic as yes Melkor was defeated and his armies scattered but the entire land that the war was fought over was literally destroyed.

Yes, something like this would work well, IMO.