Dies the Fire - August 3, 1914

[575]

Primed by a thread on AHcom I got my own idea - the Change happens just as the German troops cross the Belgian border.

In the East the War wouldn't begin untill 10 August when the A-H Army would cross the Russian border and the Russian move on East Prussia wouldn't happen untill two days later.

Found a copy of Dies the fire - following seems be working: candles burn, lighters work, gasstove work, wood burn, (coal burn - more on this next paragraph?)

What don't work - electricity of any kind, explosives as the chemistry have changed so no fast burning explosives leading to - explosions! Pressure steam engine burning oil don't work - mechanic's talk about coal fired one's might (not touched upon are the American wood burners) but the issue of coal for heating is very vaguely touched upon. One character talk of an oil burning steam engine not working up pressure. Cars with internal combustion engines fail assumed to be the electrics like the sparkplugs not working due to electricity not working.
So the chemistry of coal and oil may both have been revorked - some of it regarding coal seems to really be charcoal.

So seems to me that chemistry have been altered in certain areas and man-made electricity is out the window though induction made electricity isn't touched upon - remember old timey radio with batteries charged by a bicycle setup? Might not work - or Stirling simply didn't think about it like not giving too much thought for coal!

This may leave us with only very low efficiency steam-engines as related to in the book the really oldie one's of 18 cent. large as houses and used to pump out water of mines like James Watts:

So basically back to the machinery of muscle-power. Or wind- and water-mills. Pater-noster works and such:

What happens now? Do the Germans fit bayonets and continue advancing into Belgium or does the War end before it really begins?

[lordroel]

Mar 27, 2024 16:10:36 GMT 575 said:

Primed by a thread on AHcom I got my own idea - the Change happens just as the German troops cross the Belgian border.

In the East the War wouldn't begin untill 10 August when the A-H Army would cross the Russian border and the Russian move on East Prussia wouldn't happen untill two days later.

Found a copy of Dies the fire - following seems be working: candles burn, lighters work, gasstove work, wood burn, (coal burn - more on this next paragraph?)

What don't work - electricity of any kind, explosives as the chemistry have changed so no fast burning explosives leading to - explosions! Pressure steam engine burning oil don't work - mechanic's talk about coal fired one's might (not touched upon are the American wood burners) but the issue of coal for heating is very vaguely touched upon. One character talk of an oil burning steam engine not working up pressure. Cars with internal combustion engines fail assumed to be the electrics like the sparkplugs not working due to electricity not working.
So the chemistry of coal and oil may both have been revorked - some of it regarding coal seems to really be charcoal.

So seems to me that chemistry have been altered in certain areas and man-made electricity is out the window though induction made electricity isn't touched upon - remember old timey radio with batteries charged by a bicycle setup? Might not work - or Stirling simply didn't think about it like not giving too much thought for coal!

This may leave us with only very low efficiency steam-engines as related to in the book the really oldie one's of 18 cent. large as houses and used to pump out water of mines like James Watts:

So basically back to the machinery of muscle-power. Or wind- and water-mills. Pater-noster works and such:

What happens now? Do the Germans fit bayonets and continue advancing into Belgium or does the War end before it really begins?

Seems the Calvary is useful again.

[stevep]

  575 ,

   If I'm reading this rightly no high powered steam engines work, including any in merchant or warships or probably in trains. Coupled with the loss of any electrical devices such as telegraphs and phones this could be a mass deaths scenario, possibly especially in the more developed states as a lot of the links for those nations to move information and materials are going to fall apart.  Britain will suffer especially badly unless and until large scale sailing ships can quickly be used for vital imports such as foodstuffs but everybody, especially in large cities could be in serious trouble.

  In terms of the war this probably helps the defence more than the offense as you would no longer have artillery pound defences.  Although given that many fixed fortifications probably rely on their own large guns to provide killing grounds for support of their components.  Such fortifications would probably have to be starved out or possibly using mining, battering rams, siege towers and the like which if their adequately could be costly.

  However without railways to send supplies to forward depots for transfer onward by horse drawn carts those huge armies are going to have great problems feeding themselves, albeit that they no longer have the burden of supplying munitions.  You could see widespread devastation as increasingly hungry hordes are looking for food.

  In many areas you could see a lot of civil revolts as guns and artillery, which are dominated by the government in most cases are now impotent and other possibly than organisation and training an army is relatively no more powerful than a mass of peasants.

  Steve

[lordroel]

Mar 27, 2024 16:29:19 GMT stevep said:

  575 ,

   If I'm reading this rightly no high powered steam engines work, including any in merchant or warships or probably in trains. Coupled with the loss of any electrical devices such as telegraphs and phones this could be a mass deaths scenario, possibly especially in the more developed states as a lot of the links for those nations to move information and materials are going to fall apart.  Britain will suffer especially badly unless and until large scale sailing ships can quickly be used for vital imports such as foodstuffs but everybody, especially in large cities could be in serious trouble.

  In terms of the war this probably helps the defence more than the offense as you would no longer have artillery pound defences.  Although given that many fixed fortifications probably rely on their own large guns to provide killing grounds for support of their components.  Such fortifications would probably have to be starved out or possibly using mining, battering rams, siege towers and the like which if their adequately could be costly.

  However without railways to send supplies to forward depots for transfer onward by horse drawn carts those huge armies are going to have great problems feeding themselves, albeit that they no longer have the burden of supplying munitions.  You could see widespread devastation as increasingly hungry hordes are looking for food.

  In many areas you could see a lot of civil revolts as guns and artillery, which are dominated by the government in most cases are now impotent and other possibly than organisation and training an army is relatively no more powerful than a mass of peasants.

  Steve

Back to the old ways it seems, with bows and arrows.

[stevep]

   Just had a nasty thought that if so much power production is nullified can steelworks and the like still function at any level? If not then things are going to be even worse in terms of shipping especially and it going to hurt older nations such as Britain badly due to a lack of wood for shipbuilding and other structural activities.  True we could probably get materials from the empire but that assumes that connections can be maintained enough to extract the timber and the link and move them to shipyards as well as finding enough skilled workers able to do the work by unmechanized methods.

[575]

Mar 27, 2024 16:29:19 GMT stevep said:

  575 ,

   If I'm reading this rightly no high powered steam engines work, including any in merchant or warships or probably in trains. Coupled with the loss of any electrical devices such as telegraphs and phones this could be a mass deaths scenario, possibly especially in the more developed states as a lot of the links for those nations to move information and materials are going to fall apart.  Britain will suffer especially badly unless and until large scale sailing ships can quickly be used for vital imports such as foodstuffs but everybody, especially in large cities could be in serious trouble.

  In terms of the war this probably helps the defence more than the offense as you would no longer have artillery pound defences.  Although given that many fixed fortifications probably rely on their own large guns to provide killing grounds for support of their components.  Such fortifications would probably have to be starved out or possibly using mining, battering rams, siege towers and the like which if their adequately could be costly.

  However without railways to send supplies to forward depots for transfer onward by horse drawn carts those huge armies are going to have great problems feeding themselves, albeit that they no longer have the burden of supplying munitions.  You could see widespread devastation as increasingly hungry hordes are looking for food.

  In many areas you could see a lot of civil revolts as guns and artillery, which are dominated by the government in most cases are now impotent and other possibly than organisation and training an army is relatively no more powerful than a mass of peasants.

  Steve

I would expect Britain because of its needs for imports to probably be in trouble and perhaps France and Germany though pertaining to other discussions at least France would be well off in foodstuffs and I guess quite a number of other nations too.

The problem will be moving the stuff from farm to consumer but in the day and age that will entail livestock (remember accidentally getting into a butchery market in England back in 1976 - no freezers as far as it seemed and more or less freshly butchered livestock) though I know that during WWI some freezer ships was around. A lot of the stock would be non-perishable at least in society without modern health restrictions on last date of consuming.

OK - had a quick look up on British food imports 1914; seems bleak though. according to this at the outbreak of war Britain by 1914 would have a reserve of wheat that would last 16 weeks.

There is still the postal service and as late as the 1980's we were well off with a processing time in Public Service in weeks! Regular mail was a day to day business though of course some would - because of lack of moving trains take several. Important Government/official mail will be delivered by Army Cavalry riders.

I know the Telegraph to be the fad of the day but remember the cost per word - it wasn't your mobile of the day except of course for the wealthy.

Regarding armies - the German system will be totally broken down so except from forward units ready to cross the Belgian border the troops will be sitting in their trains!

Russia and A-H being even more low tech with less density of railways and rollingstock will have to march with baggage trains on carts as during centuries.

I think WWI will get a breather. The shock of loosing control will certainly freak out the Military commands.

Uprisings - quite a possible outside the civilized World (Britain, France, Germany, Scandinavia, USA(possibly))

[575]

Must admit I hadn't realized the importance of steam/other motorships at this time - of the Danish merchantmen 4 sailing ships(total 1970) of 500+ tons were 7% of the total with 6 motorships(total 941) of 500+ tons being 65% of the total and 329 steamships(total 642) of 500+ tons were 89% of the total tonnage.

Thus 9 % of the Danish merchantmen would carry 74 % of the total of the fleet! Shipping had come a long way in a short timeframe.

[575]

Mar 27, 2024 16:45:07 GMT stevep said:

   Just had a nasty thought that if so much power production is nullified can steelworks and the like still function at any level? If not then things are going to be even worse in terms of shipping especially and it going to hurt older nations such as Britain badly due to a lack of wood for shipbuilding and other structural activities.  True we could probably get materials from the empire but that assumes that connections can be maintained enough to extract the timber and the link and move them to shipyards as well as finding enough skilled workers able to do the work by unmechanized methods.

You're right this is bad. No I don't think the steelworks will be able to do the job without coal.

Bad scenario - unfortunatly.

Chief - lets get this one closed.

[lordroel]

Mar 27, 2024 17:46:08 GMT 575 said:

Mar 27, 2024 16:45:07 GMT stevep said:

   Just had a nasty thought that if so much power production is nullified can steelworks and the like still function at any level? If not then things are going to be even worse in terms of shipping especially and it going to hurt older nations such as Britain badly due to a lack of wood for shipbuilding and other structural activities.  True we could probably get materials from the empire but that assumes that connections can be maintained enough to extract the timber and the link and move them to shipyards as well as finding enough skilled workers able to do the work by unmechanized methods.

You're right this is bad. No I don't think the steelworks will be able to do the job without coal.

Bad scenario - unfortunatly.

Chief - lets get this one closed.

As this is based on the novel Dies the Fire by S. M. Stirling it according to the rule below, as outline is a work of fiction and not toughed up by a member here, thus this TL is allowed and this thread does not need to be closed unless the OP want to.

ASB and mass death scenarios

The ASB board is for scenarios that require some thought and can generate a discussion, not for figuratively throwing a bucket of blood on the wall, thus there are in my view two mass death scenarios, the first one is mass death scenario by stupidity which are mass death scenarios where people drop a country ore large amount of people into a empty world ore drop lets say 1, 10 ore 100 billion into our world knowing a lot of people are going to die for no reason, these threads i do not approve of nor will tolerate on the forum, the second one is call mass death by scenario and that implies there is a reason behind it like mass death scenarios found in books, movies, games ore like in this, a timeline, those i can approve as they are a work in fiction.