Denmark and Norway from April 1 1989 ISOT to April 1 1940

[Otto Kretschmer]

I want a separate thread on this.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_the_Danish_Armed_Forces_at_the_end_of_the_Cold_War
military-history.fandom.com/wiki/1989_Norwegian_Armed_Forces_Order_of_Battle

ISOT is from April 1 1989 to April 1 1940 so that both Danish and Norwegian armies have over a week of time to mobilize and prepare for war.

I am sure the Norwegians can defend themselves well and the Danes can give a heavy beating to at least the initial German invasion force - nothing in 1940 is a match for the Leopard 1. Expect the two German divisions thrown at Denmark to be rendered combat ineffective within 1-2 days.

But can they defend themselves long term? Especially Denmark with it's land border with Germany?

[lordroel]

Apr 1, 2024 13:25:29 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

ISOT is from April 1 1989 to April 1 1940 so that both Danish and Norwegian armies have over a week of time to mobilize and prepare for war.

If war starts in the first place, that is always the question with these kind of ISOTs.

[Otto Kretschmer]

Apr 1, 2024 13:30:50 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 1, 2024 13:25:29 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

ISOT is from April 1 1989 to April 1 1940 so that both Danish and Norwegian armies have over a week of time to mobilize and prepare for war.

If war starts in the first place, that is always the question with these kind of ISOTs.

It does. Hitler makes sure of that.

[lordroel]

Apr 1, 2024 13:38:25 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

Apr 1, 2024 13:30:50 GMT lordroel said:

If war starts in the first place, that is always the question with these kind of ISOTs.

It does. Hitler makes sure of that.

Is that part of the ISOT.

[Otto Kretschmer]

Apr 1, 2024 13:42:35 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 1, 2024 13:38:25 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

It does. Hitler makes sure of that.

Is that part of the ISOT.

If it's necessary to change Hitler's mind by ASB then yes.

575 might have something to say about this scenario... Let's wait for him.

[stevep]

   I think it likely that war with still occur between the three nations because while Denmark especially may want to delay it the Nazi regime will be too poisonous to their views and also attempts at beefing up their defences are likely to ensure a German attack.

  The big issue for Germany will be the flow of information from Denmark and Norway, both from their governments and also other people most definitely including the diplomatic representatives of Britain, France and Belgium to include the most obvious about what is 'due' to happen and how to avoid it.  I also wonder about what the 1989 Italian diplomatic missions would say to Rome and how much impact that might have.  Can see similar actions by other diplomats although in political terms I doubt it would make a massive difference for the US - which is still likely to keep its distance - and Japan where the militarists are likely to be blind to all reason.  Probably Stalin is also likely to be in deep denial as well.

  Of course a lot of technical and historical information will be passed on and expect a lot of nuclear programmes to start.  There will be some bad effects for the allies, especially if knowledge of the breaking of the Enigma codes reaches Germany but generally, while they will be conservative in many ways the democracies are still more likely to respond and change plans than the dictatorships.

  Its going to be a chaotic ride but I would expect a shorter and less bloodier WWII although after that there would continue to be steadily increasing butterflies which could take things off in many different directions.

[575]

Well my friend Otto - for starters just this one

And of course some Eye-candy:



Commander UK General Geoffrey Howlett untill April (no date given) 1989.

[stevep]

Apr 2, 2024 9:10:21 GMT 575 said:

Well my friend Otto - for starters just this one

And of course some Eye-candy:



Commander UK General Geoffrey Howlett untill April (no date given) 1989.

  Good point I had forgotten about that.  Its going to cause some political complications with the staff including Germans, Americans and possibly some others who's countries are either hostile or  neutral but I think most people would want to remove Hitler and the Nazis.

  Going to be some useful air and naval resources as well as some very powerful ground units that can help defend Denmark, at least while spares and munitions last.  As well as the best radar and communications facilities in the world of course.

[575]

Some trivia - might be important:

April 1 1989 - a Saturday, 1940 a Monday and its April Fools Day, may make for some time to realize what's going on! April 4 will be the 40 Anniversary of NATO establishing. A Navy Excercise is scheduled for April 17-18, Bold Game in Kattegat off the Norwegian Coast.

1989 in Denmark was a generally warm year - winter 1940 continued into April.

Berlin Wall haven't fallen yet but everybody in Europe is following the developing situation in GDR. Denmark had listening stations on Bornholm and underwater at the Baelt's and Oeresound. BTW there is no bridges across Great Baelt or Oeresound. Listening for Warsaw Pact Subs - need I tell you that a 1940 German sub will emit a lot more noise?
Even the smallest Danish Patrolboat - Daphne Class - is armed with listening devices and Dept Charges - and train using them, fishing for dinner expensive but effective!

NATO Headquarters at Kolsås, Norway command all NATO forces in the North including Norway and Denmark (and Schleswig-Holstein..)

Re: Outline of the Danish Armed Forces - the Recce Squadron/Eskadrille 729 at Karup have full fighter-bomber capability.
Danish reserves 74,700 - all hands on deck 104,000 add to this a Home Guard of some 70,000 - the mentioned org. of Home Guard Area usually have 5-7 Companies.
The Fishery Protection Squadron Frigates have their ASW capability at this time - haven't been rebuild for housing MH-60 Seahawk.
Anybody following the Russo-Ukrainian War thread will know that the Danish Mobile Harpoon units are quite effective.
The Airforce still have shit-loads of Bofors L60 AA-guns in store.

Denmark have a Coalition Government of Conservative - Liberal - Social Liberal Parties; Norway have a minority Government of Arbeiterparti/Socialdemocratic Party. Both staunch members of NATO with large backing in populations.

Both countries have North Sea oil and natural gas on-line production. And will be defending these.

The German troops haven't embarked yet but Hitler will decide tomorrow April 2 that Operation Weserübung will initiate. April 3 the German supply ships for the landings in Norwegian ports will leave German ports. April 5 German steamers leave Stettin for Norway. April 7 the Twins and the Destroyer Flotilla carrying General Dietl for Narvik leave port. April 8 German troops march up to the Danish border leaving a 60 km-column of vehicles parked along the road.

There is NO timeframe for decisionmaking and certainly not for negotiating M. Hitler. Only thing to do is deploy the ASW and other Navy units; arm the Lockheed P-3's with Penguins and start killing off the Kriegsmarine. Danish pre-emptive attacks on the German Airfields to take out the Airborne Assault and transport units for the reinforcement of units landed in Norway.
Will take a week to mobilize and re-familiarize reserves with their arms..

Of course General Howlett will get a plane to Britain to inform of events and intentions.

Any way its better than landing on 8 April..

[stevep]

   Well the weather will be a big key to something having happened, as will be the loss of all contact with the rest of the world and most of all the realization that you suddenly have Nazi Germany on Denmark's southern border.

  There will be initial panic and denial in both states because the situation is so insane but if nothing else the sight of German ships starting to move for the invasion of Norway and the fact that WWII is clearly in its early stages will become obvious.

  I think even if the politicians waffle too long in this situation you could see the military move.  However hopefully the danger will be clear enough that political decisions will be made in time. 

  The extreme bad weather will be awkward but far less for the uptime forces than for the down-time ones.  A lot of those troop laden ships are going to go down and the attack on Norway is going to be a disaster for the forces involved, including a lot of the KM.  Denmark will be harder to defend but as you say quick action by NATO air forces especially and an even partially prepared defensive position will take some moving. 

  If we're including the Danish and Norwegian EEZs so as to have their oil and gas installations and pipelines then I wonder how many up-time ships will be brought along as well.  Some of which could well be warships and there's a possibility there might be nukes on some which could be a huge game-changer if so decided.  [Would be interesting if there was a Soviet sub with nuclear weapons transiting the region!]

[575]

Apr 2, 2024 11:43:55 GMT stevep said:

   Well the weather will be a big key to something having happened, as will be the loss of all contact with the rest of the world and most of all the realization that you suddenly have Nazi Germany on Denmark's southern border.

  There will be initial panic and denial in both states because the situation is so insane but if nothing else the sight of German ships starting to move for the invasion of Norway and the fact that WWII is clearly in its early stages will become obvious.

  I think even if the politicians waffle too long in this situation you could see the military move.  However hopefully the danger will be clear enough that political decisions will be made in time. 

  The extreme bad weather will be awkward but far less for the uptime forces than for the down-time ones.  A lot of those troop laden ships are going to go down and the attack on Norway is going to be a disaster for the forces involved, including a lot of the KM.  Denmark will be harder to defend but as you say quick action by NATO air forces especially and an even partially prepared defensive position will take some moving. 

  If we're including the Danish and Norwegian EEZs so as to have their oil and gas installations and pipelines then I wonder how many up-time ships will be brought along as well.  Some of which could well be warships and there's a possibility there might be nukes on some which could be a huge game-changer if so decided.  [Would be interesting if there was a Soviet sub with nuclear weapons transiting the region!]

I guess the 1 April 1989 being April Fools Day may on a Saturday may block some early initiative though reports from the Border will soon filter through when it's realized being real.

So no later than late evening the System should be aware of what going on though possibly the NATO installations and intelligence will blow off the lid as it is soon realized that air-traffic have ceased to old timey prop-planes like Ju-52's and NO Radar emissions from across borders!

You may well be right in the Military being the first to react and alert NATO Kolsås and both Governments.

The North Sea oilrigs need defences but also lookout for drifting mines as the Germans mined the area during 1939.

The RAF need be told to not enter Danish airspace as the bombers don't carry IFF.

As word gets out and mobilization is announced the local Nazi's may be rounded up if not somebody else get them first.

The Norwegians have a lot of Submarines and the Danes MTB's and MTBG's to defend their waters; those transports leaving Schwerin, Germany will have to be decided to be taken out quickly at least those going through Oeresound as going into Swedish waters will complicate matters.

Well I hope nuke's can be kept out of the game.

Edit: though a Soviet sub with a live Nuke-missile could be interesting.