2021 Polish Armed Forces ISOT to September 1 1939

[Otto Kretschmer]

Wanna a separate thread on this again.

A wiki article on Polish Armed Forces en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Armed_Forces

On September 1 1939 the Polish Army of 2021 appears and fights alongside the 1939 Polish army.

The initial outcome is that the Wehrmacht is defeated since:
- German Panzer IIs and IIIs are utterly massacred by Polish Leopard 2s and PT-91s as well as ATGM teams with Spike
- The Luftwaffe is turned into a pile of rubble by Polish AD and F-16s
- Polish counter artillery fire devastates German artillery
- German communications units can do nothing against Polish EW

The outcome is that within a week the German invasion is stopped with catastrophic German losses including most tanks, aircraft and a significant portion of artillery.

Questions:
1. What does Hitler do given he still has significant forces in the West?
2. What do the Soviets do given they've just witnessed a catastrophic defeat of the Wehrmacht? Do they still attack on 17th September?

[lordroel]

Apr 3, 2024 16:19:42 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

Wanna a separate thread on this again.

A wiki article on Polish Armed Forces en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Armed_Forces

On September 1 1939 the Polish Army of 2021 appears and fights alongside the 1939 Polish army.

The initial outcome is that the Wehrmacht is defeated since:
- German Panzer IIs and IIIs are utterly massacred by Polish Leopard 2s and PT-91s as well as ATGM teams with Spike
- The Luftwaffe is turned into a pile of rubble by Polish AD and F-16s
- Polish counter artillery fire devastates German artillery
- German communications units can do nothing against Polish EW

The outcome is that within a week the German invasion is stopped with catastrophic German losses including most tanks, aircraft and a significant portion of artillery.

Questions:
1. What does Hitler do given he still has significant forces in the West?
2. What do the Soviets do given they've just witnessed a catastrophic defeat of the Wehrmacht? Do they still attack on 17th September?

You mention only the Polish Army of 2021, not their bases, not their supply lines, not the factorys that build and maintain everything, 2021 Poland might kick ass, but after that.

[Otto Kretschmer]

Their bases are ISOTed as well but not much besides that.

So, does the Polish army have enough supplies to also repel the Soviets in case they attack?

If they don't repel the Soviets, how much benefit will the captured 2021 weapons give to the Soviets?

These are all fun questions to explore!

[stevep]

   I'm not sure that Germany had much in terms of active ground forces as they only had a thin reserve - reported as 10-30 divisions depending on sources - in the west.  As such assuming that the two Polish groups can get their act together its going to be a very bad month for the Germans.

  The two uncertainties would be how many supplies the up-timers have as their forces can't be replaced in terms of men, equipment or munitions and what does Stalin do?  If he st8ll attacks he's going to be mauled at 1st but with the resources available for the Red Army plus that the up-timers have probably consumed a lot of their stocks the Polish resistance could be worn down and overrun in the end if he doesn't panic.  On the other hand the stories he will be receiving from the Polish-German conflict could well cool his willingness for war.

  If Stalin decides to step back, although he might make a grab for the Baltic's while everybody else is busy it could well be the end for the Nazis although there would be a hell of a lot of things to sort out afterwards. 

[simon darkshade]

At some point, they'll run out of fuel for the tanks; jet fuel for the aircraft; bombs, missiles and ammunition for the advanced aircraft; spare parts for the radars; 155mm ammunition for the modern artillery systems; and fuel and spare parts for all the support vehicles and EW systems.

The issue with transplanting modern forces of any size into the past without the 'arm behind the army' is that you don't get far without support.

In this case of Poland, they will go through the frontline forces of Germany like a hot cavalry sabre through warm butter, but they don't have a great deal of staying power without the supply dumps and infrastructure of modern Poland; indeed, like many modern Western nations, they are further reliant in various ways on the Great Big Munitions Production Plant across the Atlantic. We see that at play in the Ukraine, where attrition chews up a lot of wasting assets (armoured vehicles) far, far faster than any pitiful modern production rates can keep up.

Whilst any ISOT'ed force can and should run riot on downtime forces, they rapidly shift to becoming pillboxes without ammunition unless there is some way of addressing the logistical problem.

[stevep]

Apr 3, 2024 17:53:51 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

Their bases are ISOTed as well but not much besides that.

So, does the Polish army have enough supplies to also repel the Soviets in case they attack?

If they don't repel the Soviets, how much benefit will the captured 2021 weapons give to the Soviets?

These are all fun questions to explore!

  One other point to make clear.  Are their bases in the 2021 locations or are they moved into 1939 Poland?  As in the former case a lot of those bases could well be somewhere in Nazi Germany which would further handicap their operations.  If they have been moved eastwards there's still going to be a lot of confusion on understanding what's happened and then being able to communicate the situation with the down-time Polish forces and government etc.

[Otto Kretschmer]

All bases are moved into 1939 Poland.