A Greater Canada ISOTed into WWII

[stevep]

  This is an idea for a TL I've toyed with but not sure if I have the will-power to do it seriously so thought I would mention it here to see what people might think would occur.  The basic idea is that on 30-6-1940 with France signing an armistice a friendly[?] ASB decides to aid Britain by boosting its most powerful remaining ally, i.e. Canada, replacing OTL one with a far more powerful one from a different TL.  However either either the ASB is rather naive or possibly has a mischievous streak because the main way this Canada is more powerful is because its significantly larger which will have political and other impacts.

Geography - The Canada that comes consists of the following regions. 

a)  In the extreme norther there are three territories, Greenland [puchased from Denmark in the late 19thC], OTL Northern Territories and Alaska [obtained from Russia in a Crimean war equivalent]

b)  Further south from east to west there are the following provinces largely based on OTL Canada

The Atlantic group - a tight alliance of the provinces of Newfoundland, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia and New Albion - the latter being OTL Maine.

Quebec - pretty much as OTL.

Ontario - Largely as OTL but also including the southern shore of the upper St Lawrence and a region south of Niagara falls basically from Rochester to south of Buffalo. - Basically Canada has full control of the St Lawrence river and the Niagara river/falls area.

Buffalo - roughly OTL Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta.

British Columbia - as OTL but also including the full Oregon Territory i.e. OTL Oregon and Washington states.

c)  The southernmost provinces are

Indiana - basically the lands north of the Ohio and east of the Mississippi with also a 20 mile radius around the city of Pittsborough - OTL Pittsburg reaching south of the Ohio.  This also includes the capital city of Mooresborough - OTL Chicago.

Lakota - roughly OTL Dakotas [north and south]and Minnesota west of the upper Mississippi,

Montana - OTL Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah and Colorado

Missouri - the lands based on the river of that name including OTL Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa and Missouri states.

California - OTL California and Nevada along Baja California.

  The population of the kingdom of Canada is a little less than 85 million making it the most heavily populated and industrialized part of the Britannia Federation of States, although the central capital is still London, England.  Its most developed area is Indiana but there is also considerable industrial development in Ontario, British Columbia and California and important industrial centres in Quebec, Buffalo and Missouri.  It's head of state is Edward IX but he is not brought along as he was in the UK. 

History - was pretty much as OTL until 1781 when the successful defence of Yorktown was made possible by the crushing defeat inflicted on the French fleet at Chesapeake Bay by Admiral Rodney, leading to peace with the European powers in 1783 and the US in 1784.  Canada kept its southern territories, what was OTL to be known as the 'old NW' by the US, including an areas around Ft Pitt and also the Maine/New Albion region.

  It saw war again in 1804-07 when the US attacked both Canada and Georgia but were defeated in bitter fighting.  It was as a result of this conflict that Ontario gained territories from New York state and the region of British control around Ft Pitt was expanded.  [In part because of the success of British/Canadian arms when the common border was expanded westward to the Pacific it was at the 42th parallel rather than the 49th of OTL].

  The US gained a Pacific coast with the war against Mexico in 1837-40 which saw the bulk of Mexico annexed but lost if again when they tried to take advantage of British distraction in the war of the Triple Alliance in Europe to attack Canada and Georgia.  The resulting 1852-57 conflict saw the US heavily defeated and losing lands to Mexico which regained all lands south of the Rio Grande along with Tejas and points westward to the border of Canada which along with Missouri were annexed by Canada.  This also saw the forced ending of slavery in the US with most freed slaves moving to either Georgia or Missouri. 

  Since then there have been no further wars in N America but occasional tension when revanchist leaders in the US gain popular support.  However Canada, a kingdom since 1859 has largely maintained its own defence with some aid from Britain along with a common cause with the kingdom of Georgia - which gained that status in 1888 - and the NEC. 

Military - The peace time army consists of 18 Infantry brigades and 2 armoured ones.  Those can be upgraded to full divisions on mobilization by including ex-soldiers with reserve commitments and territorial units in case of crisis.  Other imperial forces aren't deployed in Canada in peacetime but British and Georgian forces sometimes take part in exercises in Canada and vice versa.  Formations are similar to OTL forces although with a somewhat superior motorized capacity.  There is also an army airforce for ground support although since its at peace the current forces are quite small.

  The navy is the 2nd largest in the empire but still substantial and includes some very large ships - loosely based on some proposed diesel powered alternatives to the G3 class mentioned on a naval board here.  The Pacific fleet, which in the event of a Pacific war would join with the British and Australian fleets is based around 4 Thunderer class BBs, 38,000 tons, 9x18", 33kts and 2 Ontario class CVs, 27,000 ton, 32kts, 72 a/c.

  The Atlantic fleet is larger since there is the possibility of a class with their US rivals with 8 Thunderer class, 4 Colossus class [47,500 ton, 12x18" gun, 29kts, and 3 Ontario class CV.  This force is currently supplemented by a visiting British squadron of 4 Thunderers and the CV Ark Royal, 33,000 tons, 33kts and 90 a/c.  This does add one complication to the scenario as among the crew is the midshipman Edward Royal, the alias for the 17 year old son of Henry Duke of York and hence the only member of the ATL royal family included in the ISOT.

  Both capital ship forces are of course supported by a wide range of lighter units, including cruisers of assorted types and destroyers although subs are fairly backward in the ATL world.

  Of course OTL world will be confused by the sudden appearance of this large new Canada and some, most especially the OTL US will be upset as well given their lost much of their territory.  The Canadians will be surprised by the disappearance of friendly states such as the Kingdom of Georgia and the NEC.  There will be other issues such as the disruption of traffic along the Ohio river as not only is it now an international waterway, with some defences on the Canadian shore but also all bridges are down other than in the Pittsborough region as the edge of the ISOT was mid-river in this area.

  So how do you think things will develop?  Royal Canada will have an affinity for OTL Britain and will want to help it in the current crisis situation.  However will that balance the weakened and quite possibly alienated US and also the possible tension with the US preventing Canada committing its full assistance to the allies against the Nazis?  How will this Canada, which is somewhat more liberal and economically pretty powerful interact with Britain and the OTL empire.  It should be noted that due to the way things developed Canada and the empire it knew is more liberal in racial terms as well with considerable respect for the significant black population especially in Missiouri province and for the ~7-8% of the population who still consider themselves as full or partly native American. 

  With a Presidential election coming up in 5 months things will be thrown into a spin in Washington and its going to be complicated as well by the fact a lot of the outgoing Congress are in the awkward position of no longer having electors.

PS  To make one thing clear while ATL US has lost lands to Mexico, Georgia and the NEC those regions haven't been brought across like Canada has been so OTL US is significantly larger and more powerful than the one the Canadians are used to and it has full control over the lower Mississippi where the Canadians are used to have free transit rights, which is likely to be another issue of tension.

[lordroel]

Apr 13, 2024 16:30:33 GMT stevep said:

  This is an idea for a TL I've toyed with but not sure if I have the will-power to do it seriously so thought I would mention it here to see what people might think would occur.  The basic idea is that on 30-6-1940 with France signing an armistice a friendly[?] ASB decides to aid Britain by boosting its most powerful remaining ally, i.e. Canada, replacing OTL one with a far more powerful one from a different TL.  However either either the ASB is rather naive or possibly has a mischievous streak because the main way this Canada is more powerful is because its significantly larger which will have political and other impacts.

Geography - The Canada that comes consists of the following regions. 

a)  In the extreme norther there are three territories, Greenland [puchased from Denmark in the late 19thC], OTL Northern Territories and Alaska [obtained from Russia in a Crimean war equivalent]

b)  Further south from east to west there are the following provinces largely based on OTL Canada

The Atlantic group - a tight alliance of the provinces of Newfoundland, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia and New Albion - the latter being OTL Maine.

Quebec - pretty much as OTL.

Ontario - Largely as OTL but also including the southern shore of the upper St Lawrence and a region south of Niagara falls basically from Rochester to south of Buffalo. - Basically Canada has full control of the St Lawrence river and the Niagara river/falls area.

Buffalo - roughly OTL Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta.

British Columbia - as OTL but also including the full Oregon Territory i.e. OTL Oregon and Washington states.

c)  The southernmost provinces are

Indiana - basically the lands north of the Ohio and east of the Mississippi with also a 20 mile radius around the city of Pittsborough - OTL Pittsburg reaching south of the Ohio.  This also includes the capital city of Mooresborough - OTL Chicago.

Lakota - roughly OTL Dakotas [north and south]and Minnesota west of the upper Mississippi,

Montana - OTL Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah and Colorado

Missouri - the lands based on the river of that name including OTL Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa and Missouri states.

California - OTL California and Nevada along Baja California.

  The population of the kingdom of Canada is a little less than 85 million making it the most heavily populated and industrialized part of the Britannia Federation of States, although the central capital is still London, England.  Its most developed area is Indiana but there is also considerable industrial development in Ontario, British Columbia and California and important industrial centres in Quebec, Buffalo and Missouri.  It's head of state is Edward IX but he is not brought along as he was in the UK. 

History - was pretty much as OTL until 1781 when the successful defence of Yorktown was made possible by the crushing defeat inflicted on the French fleet at Chesapeake Bay by Admiral Rodney, leading to peace with the European powers in 1783 and the US in 1784.  Canada kept its southern territories, what was OTL to be known as the 'old NW' by the US, including an areas around Ft Pitt and also the Maine/New Albion region.

  It saw war again in 1804-07 when the US attacked both Canada and Georgia but were defeated in bitter fighting.  It was as a result of this conflict that Ontario gained territories from New York state and the region of British control around Ft Pitt was expanded.  [In part because of the success of British/Canadian arms when the common border was expanded westward to the Pacific it was at the 42th parallel rather than the 49th of OTL].

  The US gained a Pacific coast with the war against Mexico in 1837-40 which saw the bulk of Mexico annexed but lost if again when they tried to take advantage of British distraction in the war of the Triple Alliance in Europe to attack Canada and Georgia.  The resulting 1852-57 conflict saw the US heavily defeated and losing lands to Mexico which regained all lands south of the Rio Grande along with Tejas and points westward to the border of Canada which along with Missouri were annexed by Canada.  This also saw the forced ending of slavery in the US with most freed slaves moving to either Georgia or Missouri. 

  Since then there have been no further wars in N America but occasional tension when revanchist leaders in the US gain popular support.  However Canada, a kingdom since 1859 has largely maintained its own defence with some aid from Britain along with a common cause with the kingdom of Georgia - which gained that status in 1888 - and the NEC. 

Military - The peace time army consists of 18 Infantry brigades and 2 armoured ones.  Those can be upgraded to full divisions on mobilization by including ex-soldiers with reserve commitments and territorial units in case of crisis.  Other imperial forces aren't deployed in Canada in peacetime but British and Georgian forces sometimes take part in exercises in Canada and vice versa.  Formations are similar to OTL forces although with a somewhat superior motorized capacity.  There is also an army airforce for ground support although since its at peace the current forces are quite small.

  The navy is the 2nd largest in the empire but still substantial and includes some very large ships - loosely based on some proposed diesel powered alternatives to the G3 class mentioned on a naval board here.  The Pacific fleet, which in the event of a Pacific war would join with the British and Australian fleets is based around 4 Thunderer class BBs, 38,000 tons, 9x18", 33kts and 2 Ontario class CVs, 27,000 ton, 32kts, 72 a/c.

  The Atlantic fleet is larger since there is the possibility of a class with their US rivals with 8 Thunderer class, 4 Colossus class [47,500 ton, 12x18" gun, 29kts, and 3 Ontario class CV.  This force is currently supplemented by a visiting British squadron of 4 Thunderers and the CV Ark Royal, 33,000 tons, 33kts and 90 a/c.  This does add one complication to the scenario as among the crew is the midshipman Edward Royal, the alias for the 17 year old son of Henry Duke of York and hence the only member of the ATL royal family included in the ISOT.

  Both capital ship forces are of course supported by a wide range of lighter units, including cruisers of assorted types and destroyers although subs are fairly backward in the ATL world.

  Of course OTL world will be confused by the sudden appearance of this large new Canada and some, most especially the OTL US will be upset as well given their lost much of their territory.  The Canadians will be surprised by the disappearance of friendly states such as the Kingdom of Georgia and the NEC.  There will be other issues such as the disruption of traffic along the Ohio river as not only is it now an international waterway, with some defences on the Canadian shore but also all bridges are down other than in the Pittsborough region as the edge of the ISOT was mid-river in this area.

  So how do you think things will develop?  Royal Canada will have an affinity for OTL Britain and will want to help it in the current crisis situation.  However will that balance the weakened and quite possibly alienated US and also the possible tension with the US preventing Canada committing its full assistance to the allies against the Nazis?  How will this Canada, which is somewhat more liberal and economically pretty powerful interact with Britain and the OTL empire.  It should be noted that due to the way things developed Canada and the empire it knew is more liberal in racial terms as well with considerable respect for the significant black population especially in Missiouri province and for the ~7-8% of the population who still consider themselves as full or partly native American. 

  With a Presidential election coming up in 5 months things will be thrown into a spin in Washington and its going to be complicated as well by the fact a lot of the outgoing Congress are in the awkward position of no longer having electors.

PS  To make one thing clear while ATL US has lost lands to Mexico, Georgia and the NEC those regions haven't been brought across like Canada has been so OTL US is significantly larger and more powerful than the one the Canadians are used to and it has full control over the lower Mississippi where the Canadians are used to have free transit rights, which is likely to be another issue of tension.

I think you made the United States very unhappy and unlikely to aid the British/Greater Canada due to loss of some of its states.

[stevep]

Apr 13, 2024 16:33:58 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 13, 2024 16:30:33 GMT stevep said:

  This is an idea for a TL I've toyed with but not sure if I have the will-power to do it seriously so thought I would mention it here to see what people might think would occur.  The basic idea is that on 30-6-1940 with France signing an armistice a friendly[?] ASB decides to aid Britain by boosting its most powerful remaining ally, i.e. Canada, replacing OTL one with a far more powerful one from a different TL.  However either either the ASB is rather naive or possibly has a mischievous streak because the main way this Canada is more powerful is because its significantly larger which will have political and other impacts.

Geography - The Canada that comes consists of the following regions. 

a)  In the extreme norther there are three territories, Greenland [puchased from Denmark in the late 19thC], OTL Northern Territories and Alaska [obtained from Russia in a Crimean war equivalent]

b)  Further south from east to west there are the following provinces largely based on OTL Canada

The Atlantic group - a tight alliance of the provinces of Newfoundland, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia and New Albion - the latter being OTL Maine.

Quebec - pretty much as OTL.

Ontario - Largely as OTL but also including the southern shore of the upper St Lawrence and a region south of Niagara falls basically from Rochester to south of Buffalo. - Basically Canada has full control of the St Lawrence river and the Niagara river/falls area.

Buffalo - roughly OTL Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta.

British Columbia - as OTL but also including the full Oregon Territory i.e. OTL Oregon and Washington states.

c)  The southernmost provinces are

Indiana - basically the lands north of the Ohio and east of the Mississippi with also a 20 mile radius around the city of Pittsborough - OTL Pittsburg reaching south of the Ohio.  This also includes the capital city of Mooresborough - OTL Chicago.

Lakota - roughly OTL Dakotas [north and south]and Minnesota west of the upper Mississippi,

Montana - OTL Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah and Colorado

Missouri - the lands based on the river of that name including OTL Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa and Missouri states.

California - OTL California and Nevada along Baja California.

  The population of the kingdom of Canada is a little less than 85 million making it the most heavily populated and industrialized part of the Britannia Federation of States, although the central capital is still London, England.  Its most developed area is Indiana but there is also considerable industrial development in Ontario, British Columbia and California and important industrial centres in Quebec, Buffalo and Missouri.  It's head of state is Edward IX but he is not brought along as he was in the UK. 

History - was pretty much as OTL until 1781 when the successful defence of Yorktown was made possible by the crushing defeat inflicted on the French fleet at Chesapeake Bay by Admiral Rodney, leading to peace with the European powers in 1783 and the US in 1784.  Canada kept its southern territories, what was OTL to be known as the 'old NW' by the US, including an areas around Ft Pitt and also the Maine/New Albion region.

  It saw war again in 1804-07 when the US attacked both Canada and Georgia but were defeated in bitter fighting.  It was as a result of this conflict that Ontario gained territories from New York state and the region of British control around Ft Pitt was expanded.  [In part because of the success of British/Canadian arms when the common border was expanded westward to the Pacific it was at the 42th parallel rather than the 49th of OTL].

  The US gained a Pacific coast with the war against Mexico in 1837-40 which saw the bulk of Mexico annexed but lost if again when they tried to take advantage of British distraction in the war of the Triple Alliance in Europe to attack Canada and Georgia.  The resulting 1852-57 conflict saw the US heavily defeated and losing lands to Mexico which regained all lands south of the Rio Grande along with Tejas and points westward to the border of Canada which along with Missouri were annexed by Canada.  This also saw the forced ending of slavery in the US with most freed slaves moving to either Georgia or Missouri. 

  Since then there have been no further wars in N America but occasional tension when revanchist leaders in the US gain popular support.  However Canada, a kingdom since 1859 has largely maintained its own defence with some aid from Britain along with a common cause with the kingdom of Georgia - which gained that status in 1888 - and the NEC. 

Military - The peace time army consists of 18 Infantry brigades and 2 armoured ones.  Those can be upgraded to full divisions on mobilization by including ex-soldiers with reserve commitments and territorial units in case of crisis.  Other imperial forces aren't deployed in Canada in peacetime but British and Georgian forces sometimes take part in exercises in Canada and vice versa.  Formations are similar to OTL forces although with a somewhat superior motorized capacity.  There is also an army airforce for ground support although since its at peace the current forces are quite small.

  The navy is the 2nd largest in the empire but still substantial and includes some very large ships - loosely based on some proposed diesel powered alternatives to the G3 class mentioned on a naval board here.  The Pacific fleet, which in the event of a Pacific war would join with the British and Australian fleets is based around 4 Thunderer class BBs, 38,000 tons, 9x18", 33kts and 2 Ontario class CVs, 27,000 ton, 32kts, 72 a/c.

  The Atlantic fleet is larger since there is the possibility of a class with their US rivals with 8 Thunderer class, 4 Colossus class [47,500 ton, 12x18" gun, 29kts, and 3 Ontario class CV.  This force is currently supplemented by a visiting British squadron of 4 Thunderers and the CV Ark Royal, 33,000 tons, 33kts and 90 a/c.  This does add one complication to the scenario as among the crew is the midshipman Edward Royal, the alias for the 17 year old son of Henry Duke of York and hence the only member of the ATL royal family included in the ISOT.

  Both capital ship forces are of course supported by a wide range of lighter units, including cruisers of assorted types and destroyers although subs are fairly backward in the ATL world.

  Of course OTL world will be confused by the sudden appearance of this large new Canada and some, most especially the OTL US will be upset as well given their lost much of their territory.  The Canadians will be surprised by the disappearance of friendly states such as the Kingdom of Georgia and the NEC.  There will be other issues such as the disruption of traffic along the Ohio river as not only is it now an international waterway, with some defences on the Canadian shore but also all bridges are down other than in the Pittsborough region as the edge of the ISOT was mid-river in this area.

  So how do you think things will develop?  Royal Canada will have an affinity for OTL Britain and will want to help it in the current crisis situation.  However will that balance the weakened and quite possibly alienated US and also the possible tension with the US preventing Canada committing its full assistance to the allies against the Nazis?  How will this Canada, which is somewhat more liberal and economically pretty powerful interact with Britain and the OTL empire.  It should be noted that due to the way things developed Canada and the empire it knew is more liberal in racial terms as well with considerable respect for the significant black population especially in Missiouri province and for the ~7-8% of the population who still consider themselves as full or partly native American. 

  With a Presidential election coming up in 5 months things will be thrown into a spin in Washington and its going to be complicated as well by the fact a lot of the outgoing Congress are in the awkward position of no longer having electors.

PS  To make one thing clear while ATL US has lost lands to Mexico, Georgia and the NEC those regions haven't been brought across like Canada has been so OTL US is significantly larger and more powerful than the one the Canadians are used to and it has full control over the lower Mississippi where the Canadians are used to have free transit rights, which is likely to be another issue of tension.

I think you made the United States very unhappy and unlikely to aid the British/Greater Canada due to loss of some of its states.

  Definitely the case.  How deep that displeasure is and how long it lasts would be the key issues with the former probably being the most important.  Because this Canada is likely to be strong enough to largely replace the US in the war provided that Us hostility doesn't detract too much from Canadian support for the allies.  Its unlikely that any but a few isolated hot-heads are going to suggest 'liberating' the lost lands, especially since those lands are settled by people who definitely view themselves as Canadians.  

  One issue for the US is that since they still have their Pacific possessions, i.e. Hawaii, Philippines, Guam and Wake and the Panama canal but without their western states its going to be a lot more difficult to support those regions, or maintain their interests in China.  Coupled with that their lost most of their Pacific fleet as that was still based on the west coast at this date.  As such they have some interests in avoiding too much tension with Canada.  There's also the possibility that this could prompt Japan to be more aggressive earlier - although whether the US will be applying the same economic pressure as OTL in this situation would be an issue.  Mind you trade with Japan will be more difficult anyway for the US.

  Another issue I didn't mention is that as a result of the 1804-07 war the US lost any rights to the Grand Bank fisheries, although the NEC still have a small share.  [By the way France also lost its share and the two islands that OTL France had in the region became Canadian].  That is another issue that is likely to cause tension.  A possible solution might be Canada awards the 20% share the NEC had to the OTL US as part of a deal although that could depend on relations.

  I'm not sure what the impact will be on the forthcoming elections in the US.  The Democrats have lost some significant areas in the north but they still have places like New York - or the bulk of its population along with the majority of the south which was pretty solidly Democrat at this stage.  I think the Republicans have lost more areas of their core support and they were heavily defeated OTL.  The only issue is how does the population react to the sudden change?  Its unlikely that there's going to be massive enough unrest to displace FDR given that arguably there's an even bigger crisis than OTL to excuse his standing for a 3rd term.  The only issue is that it could delay any settlement with Canada as accepting the loss of so much territory could be unpopular.  Especially given there's will be a fair number of people who have lost family and friends because they were out of the affected region when the ISOT occurred.

  One other point is what do the ATL British [and non-British] people in Canada do, both the naval units and assorted others.  How much might the identify with their OTL countries where those exist or might they feel more at home staying in the Canada they know? 

  Also has anyone guessed why midshipman Edward Royal is present?

 

[575]

That was quite a number of info - the easy part - USA just lost at least 22,6% of its population of 1940 (haven't done a count on the river territories mentioned). The US Pacific Navy lost its base in Calif. but still have Pearl though very removed from the Lower 48 - Panama Canal Zone, Philippines and Pacific Is.
What's and where's NEC?

Japan certainly don't have to worry about USA though it may have some different problems in getting oil and metals - a longer journey for one.

Canada isn't that badly off in the Pacific and its lesser Submarine force isn't as much of a problem there as in the Atlantic - and I guess its less developed in ASW. The Japanese may count it a minor menace but be impressed of both the BB and CV's size.

Canada's role in aiding Britain will very much depend upon its industrial sector - does it rival USA of 1940? Don't know how much Aircraft Industry the US had on the West Coast but a lot of Car Manufacture west of the Appalichians. If the ISOT Canadians did build their own Navy and have a automotive industry it might be able to take on the mantle.

So much for starters.

[stevep]

Apr 13, 2024 21:29:12 GMT 575 said:

That was quite a number of info - the easy part - USA just lost at least 22,6% of its population of 1940 (haven't done a count on the river territories mentioned). The US Pacific Navy lost its base in Calif. but still have Pearl though very removed from the Lower 48 - Panama Canal Zone, Philippines and Pacific Is.
What's and where's NEC?

Japan certainly don't have to worry about USA though it may have some different problems in getting oil and metals - a longer journey for one.

Canada isn't that badly off in the Pacific and its lesser Submarine force isn't as much of a problem there as in the Atlantic - and I guess its less developed in ASW. The Japanese may count it a minor menace but be impressed of both the BB and CV's size.

Canada's role in aiding Britain will very much depend upon its industrial sector - does it rival USA of 1940? Don't know how much Aircraft Industry the US had on the West Coast but a lot of Car Manufacture west of the Appalichians. If the ISOT Canadians did build their own Navy and have a automotive industry it might be able to take on the mantle.

So much for starters.

  The assumption is that the Great Lakes region is one of if not the largest industrial centre in the world and pretty much all of that is Canadian.  Plus much of the mineral resources of the same region and the Rockies as well as OTL Canada so its resource base is considerable.  Probably the prime shortfall would be in oil products as offshore regions such as OTL California, let alone Alaska wouldn't be developed yet.  Also of course it has a lot of agricultural lands.  It will have some problems because foreign trade will be disrupted and with a world war on and the US probably less than friendly for a while re-opening trade will be more difficult.  Also with a POD of 1781 its likely that there will be issues with things like standards.  For instance would the railway gauge in ATL Canada be the same as OTL world?  Or size of nuts and bolts even and a lot of other items?  Furthermore Canada is used to a lot of items from the interior being exported via the Mississippi which is likely to be a problem for a while.

  I haven't developed the ATL world in great detail but Canada will have similar technology to OTL with advantages in some areas and weaknesses in others technologically wise.  I'm thinking that their slightly less advances in aviation as the British empire, with this greater Canada and Georgia among other areas is the dominant world and hence has been less challenged than many states OTL. 

[575]

Hmm, still confused about NEC and now Kingdom of Georgia - understood by your OP that the latter didn't come along Canada?

With such an industrial base Canada should be able to provide the output for Britain and the logistics problem of oil have to be resolved. Though does it have the shipbuilding capacity necessary to replace convoy losses?

[stevep]

Apr 14, 2024 6:42:46 GMT 575 said:

Hmm, still confused about NEC and now Kingdom of Georgia - understood by your OP that the latter didn't come along Canada?

With such an industrial base Canada should be able to provide the output for Britain and the logistics problem of oil have to be resolved. Though does it have the shipbuilding capacity necessary to replace convoy losses?

  The NEC is the New England Confederacy which became independent after the war of 1804-07.  It consists of all of the New England states NE of New York other than OTL Maine which as the colony of New Albion is part of Canada as of the peace treaty with the rebels in 1784.  Small but well developed state that is generally aligned with Canada and the empire.  In the war in the 1850's in which it was allied with Britain it gained control of most of Long Island.

  The Kingdom of Georgia was initially the colonies of Georgia and the Florida's, which stayed British in 1784 and resisted US attacks in the two later wars.  Georgia here includes its westward claims to the Mississippi so includes the OTL states of Alabama and Mississippi.  Because that was much larger and increasingly dominant when the colonies were combined in the kingdom of Georgia.  Initially the primary population were the Indians tribes and British loyalists from across the south who fled the revolution.  - Have read that a number of the latter were settling western Florida OTL until as part of the final treaty with the Bourbon powers it was returned to Spain.

  Demographically some blacks who had served in the British forces in return for freedom from slavery were also a factor and over following years this proportion increased, partly due to fleeing slaves, especially once the empire ended slavery and even more so in the two later wars with the US as escaped slaves were encouraged and after the final war when slavery was abolished inside the US many former slaves sought a better life in either Missouri or in larger numbers Georgia.  As such blacks are ~42% of the population with about 20% of Indian or mixed descent and the other 38% white.

  The kingdom is formally established later than that of Canada in part because of uncertainly over giving a mixed race colony the same level of independence.  It may or may not have included some of the British Caribbean colonies.

  Correct that neither of those areas were brought along, just Canada.  If either or especially both had been then the US would be even more concerned.  The NEC would make New York, which is much larger OTL than in the ATL very exposed and Georgia would largely cut if off from much of the Gulf and mean Georgia could deny the US of use of the lower Mississippi in the event of conflict.  Plus the predominantly black and Indian population of the latter would be a serious issue for the remains of the south culturally and politically.  - You could still see some issues here with a flow of black Americans to Canada, especially Missouri province which has a significant black population.

  What I would like to know is what some of our America members would think of the scenario and what sort of reactions OTL US would see in this situation.  There will be a lot of concerns and disruption but how does the US respond and what constraints might there be on Canada's ability to help Britain and its allies?