WI: The English win the battle of Hastings

[Otto Kretschmer]

What if the English had won the battle of Hastings? What would be the consequences?

There are several things to consider:
1. The English language. Without the Norman conquest English would have remained a fully Germanic language. It would be much more similar to Dutch and Low German in terms of vocabulary.
2. Weaker feudalism. Without the Norman conquest, feudalism wouldn't have been so strong in England
3. There would be much stronger political and cultural ties to Scandinavia

[stevep]

Apr 28, 2024 8:18:10 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

What if the English had won the battle of Hastings? What would be the consequences?

There are several things to consider:
1. The English language. Without the Norman conquest English would have remained a fully Germanic language. It would be much more similar to Dutch and Low German in terms of vocabulary.
2. Weaker feudalism. Without the Norman conquest, feudalism wouldn't have been so strong in England
3. There would be much stronger political and cultural ties to Scandinavia

1) - Agreed.  It will pick up some influence from other languages, especially probably Latin as the language of international discussion but the French influence will be very small

2)  - Also agree.  Without the destruction of so much of the English political, social and economic structure there will be more of a strong monarchy checked by a wide range of figures, not just powerful nobles and the church.  Also without the physical destruction of the conquest and afterwards England will have substantially more wealth.

3)  There will be strong ties with Scandinavia and also much of Northern Germany.  Both because of language and cultural similarities and in the latter case English clergy played a major role in bringing Christianity to Germany and parts of the Low Counties in previous centuries.  Without the harrowing of the north there's going to be a significant population of Scandinavian origin in that region but how fully that is or isn't absorbed by this stage I don't know.  I mention the German links because while there have been close links with Scandinavia their often not been good ones for England.  The ravaging of pagan Viking times then again in more recent decades under the Danes Sweyn and Cnut and there's just been the attack by Harald of Norway.  The Norwegians are removed from play for the moment after their defeat at Stamford Bridge but the Danes might again be a threat. 

  Also other factors that come to mind.

4)  Your likely to see better relations between England and Ireland as the OTL Norman conquest of the latter isn't going to occur here. Your going to have continued conflict with Scotland and Wales but while a strong English monarch is likely to want recognition of overlordship - and of course ending raids on English territories attempts at outright annexation is probably going to be unlikely in the foreseeable future.  You might see England regaining control of Lothian - which could have big impact on Scotland's future development and possibly seek to restore Strathclyde as a client state.  However relations with Ireland are likely to remain pretty good.

5)  Without England providing a lot of the wealth and manpower of the later Norman and then Plantagenet dynasty Normandy could well end up eclipsed by the French state, especially if as is likely the Normans lose a lot of their men and very likely their leadership, especially William at Hastings.  If so does some other regional power end up challenging the French monarchy or is it unified earlier?  That could have a big impact on the future of western Europe as a whole.  One other alternative might be France divided into its northern lands and the southern regions which had a different culture and language.  In turn their going to generate a lot of butterflies elsewhere.

6)  Assuming that Byzantium has the same troubled history as OTL your likely to still see the crusades called and presuming that the Papacy has accepted Harold's position - there is some evidence it supported William's usurping of him - England will be send crusaders but their likely to be more along the line of virtually solely infantry forces.  Which could suffer against both Turks and Fatimid's cavalry and archer forces but might prove useful in siege combat and could bring ideas back for England so prompting the need for some cavalry units and more archer ones.  Which will prompt changes but how quickly and in which directions?

[Max Sinister]

Because I just reread the book: GURPS Alternate Earths suggests that Saxon England would stay isolated, Languedoc has more influence in France, and the Hanseatic League might also become stronger.

[575]

Sven Estridson would still at some point like to assert his claim to the English throne. One of his enduring problems being the Church - the Archbishop of Hamburg-Bremen which had supported him once Magnus Godir had died.

Prior to this the A of H-B had supported Magnus Godir so Sven may still have an axe to grind with the A of H-B.
During the reigns of Svein Forkbeard and Cnut the Great English clergy had been "imported" to Denmark as a counterweigh to A of H-B. If the Archbishops of Canterbury and/or York would like to play something might be worked out thus preventing the later Danish raids on York and surrounds 1069-70 by Svend Estridsons brother Asbjorn and two of Svens sons and later the aborted raid by Cnut 1085.

[stevep]

May 18, 2024 14:51:58 GMT 575 said:

Sven Estridson would still at some point like to assert his claim to the English throne. One of his enduring problems being the Church - the Archbishop of Hamburg-Bremen which had supported him once Magnus Godir had died.

Prior to this the A of H-B had supported Magnus Godir so Sven may still have an axe to grind with the A of H-B.
During the reigns of Svein Forkbeard and Cnut the Great English clergy had been "imported" to Denmark as a counterweigh to A of H-B. If the Archbishops of Canterbury and/or York would like to play something might be worked out thus preventing the later Danish raids on York and surrounds 1069-70 by Svend Estridsons brother Asbjorn and two of Svens sons and later the aborted raid by Cnut 1085.

  he can try but if Harold has defeated both Harald and William without being gravely weakened its going to be a bloody big ask for him.  Raiding and trying for Danegeld possibly but I think I know what Harold's reaction to that would be.   Sven was on the back foot against Harald for quite a number of years and he might concentrate on try to bring parts of Norway under control or make use of its weakened position to loot it in turn.  Also the defeat of the northern lords at Fulton Gate has weakened them in both power and prestige so Harold's position would be very formidable.

  IIRC Sven made a number of raids on England after 1066 but seems more interested in looting what he could and then at least once getting the Normans to pay him to go, leaving the rebels [both Saxons and in the north people with a Danish heritage] who had considered he might aid them in the lurch.

[575]

May 19, 2024 16:02:11 GMT stevep said:

May 18, 2024 14:51:58 GMT 575 said:

Sven Estridson would still at some point like to assert his claim to the English throne. One of his enduring problems being the Church - the Archbishop of Hamburg-Bremen which had supported him once Magnus Godir had died.

Prior to this the A of H-B had supported Magnus Godir so Sven may still have an axe to grind with the A of H-B.
During the reigns of Svein Forkbeard and Cnut the Great English clergy had been "imported" to Denmark as a counterweigh to A of H-B. If the Archbishops of Canterbury and/or York would like to play something might be worked out thus preventing the later Danish raids on York and surrounds 1069-70 by Svend Estridsons brother Asbjorn and two of Svens sons and later the aborted raid by Cnut 1085.

  he can try but if Harold has defeated both Harald and William without being gravely weakened its going to be a bloody big ask for him.  Raiding and trying for Danegeld possibly but I think I know what Harold's reaction to that would be.   Sven was on the back foot against Harald for quite a number of years and he might concentrate on try to bring parts of Norway under control or make use of its weakened position to loot it in turn.  Also the defeat of the northern lords at Fulton Gate has weakened them in both power and prestige so Harold's position would be very formidable.

  IIRC Sven made a number of raids on England after 1066 but seems more interested in looting what he could and then at least once getting the Normans to pay him to go, leaving the rebels [both Saxons and in the north people with a Danish heritage] who had considered he might aid them in the lurch.

Indeed and Sven was very long in get going primarily due to the feud with Magnus and having the Church against him. Which of course would suit Harold well.

However once Sven is rid of Magnus he will begin planning on England and an effort to keep him in place like "we have an offer for you to get even with Hamburg-Bremen" in effect freeing him of German clergy but submitting to the English!

With an army of sons to succeed him that could buy peace from that corner. It might even make the sons infighting more intense as they would have the Danish Nobiliy, the Hamburg-Bremen Archbishop and the English Archbishop to turn to for backing against their brothers!