American Civil War if secession fails in North Carolina

[1bigrich]

In 1861, the initial vote on secession failed in North Carolina.    The Unionists defeated the Secessionist in  the popular vote.  In the delegate count, the Secessionists could count only 39 of 120 delegates. Details

It was only after President Lincoln called for volunteers to put down the rebellion in South Carolina that Governor Ellis called a special secession and the delegates voted to secede.   However, they also rejected putting secession to a popular vote.   And a year later one of the delegates against secession, Zebulon Vance, was elected as governor of North Carolina.  

North Carolina saw 10,000 white troops fight for the Union during the Civil War.   

During the Civil War, North Carolina provided more men and supplies and suffered more casualties than any other Confederate state. 

So how does the war play out if North Carolina does NOT secede in 1861?



How does the South react if there is a large northern bastion in its midst?    
Is there even an Army of Nothern Virginia?   If so, can it fight on two fronts?
And how do the Southern armies fare if denied the men and materiel North Carolina provides?    And how would the Union armies do with those resources at their disposal?

Finally, given the importance of rail transport, how do Southern supplies move if North Carolina's rail roads are in Union hands?




Regards, 

[lordroel]

Jun 24, 2024 14:37:25 GMT 1bigrich said:

In 1861, the initial vote on secession failed in North Carolina.    The Unionists defeated the Secessionist in  the popular vote.  In the delegate count, the Secessionists could count only 39 of 120 delegates. Details

It was only after President Lincoln called for volunteers to put down the rebellion in South Carolina that Governor Ellis called a special secession and the delegates voted to secede.   However, they also rejected putting secession to a popular vote.   And a year later one of the delegates against secession, Zebulon Vance, was elected as governor of North Carolina.  

North Carolina saw 10,000 white troops fight for the Union during the Civil War.   

During the Civil War, North Carolina provided more men and supplies and suffered more casualties than any other Confederate state. 

So how does the war play out if North Carolina does NOT secede in 1861?



How does the South react if there is a large northern bastion in its midst?    
Is there even an Army of Nothern Virginia?   If so, can it fight on two fronts?
And how do the Southern armies fare if denied the men and materiel North Carolina provides?    And how would the Union armies do with those resources at their disposal?

Finally, given the importance of rail transport, how do Southern supplies move if North Carolina's rail roads are in Union hands?




Regards, 

Could we see a civil war in North Carolina between Pro-Union and Pro-Confederates.ore will something happen like Kentucky.

[stevep]

Jun 24, 2024 14:46:37 GMT lordroel said:

Jun 24, 2024 14:37:25 GMT 1bigrich said:

In 1861, the initial vote on secession failed in North Carolina.    The Unionists defeated the Secessionist in  the popular vote.  In the delegate count, the Secessionists could count only 39 of 120 delegates. Details

It was only after President Lincoln called for volunteers to put down the rebellion in South Carolina that Governor Ellis called a special secession and the delegates voted to secede.   However, they also rejected putting secession to a popular vote.   And a year later one of the delegates against secession, Zebulon Vance, was elected as governor of North Carolina.  

North Carolina saw 10,000 white troops fight for the Union during the Civil War.   

During the Civil War, North Carolina provided more men and supplies and suffered more casualties than any other Confederate state. 

So how does the war play out if North Carolina does NOT secede in 1861?



How does the South react if there is a large northern bastion in its midst?    
Is there even an Army of Nothern Virginia?   If so, can it fight on two fronts?
And how do the Southern armies fare if denied the men and materiel North Carolina provides?    And how would the Union armies do with those resources at their disposal?

Finally, given the importance of rail transport, how do Southern supplies move if North Carolina's rail roads are in Union hands?




Regards, 

Could we see a civil war in North Carolina between Pro-Union and Pro-Confederates.ore will something happen like Kentucky.

  There would likely be some conflict in the state definitely between the factions.  However the south are screwed pretty damned quickly here as, as long as N Carolina holds until reinforcements arrive it leaves the south in a hopeless position.  Doubly so if say Tennessee follows its actions which it possibly might do. 

  Even if the state declares it won't secede but won't support any attacks on the rebel states it leaves the southern transport system fatally compromised, especially in terms of Virginia's position.

  The other point is with a much shorter war is there the will to pass the emancipation proclamation?  It might be that Lincoln is able to free slaves in rebel states but doesn't have the political support to pass such measures in loyal slave states.  Which would probably delay the final total end of slavery by a while, although it will no doubt come, probably with some perhaps generous compensation system for slave owners.

[1bigrich]

Jun 24, 2024 14:46:37 GMT lordroel said:

Could we see a civil war in North Carolina between Pro-Union and Pro-Confederates.ore will something happen like Kentucky.

Hi lordroel,

I'm not sure we could get a Kentucky-like situation; I can't see North Carolina declaring neutrality.   I do think a parallel would be the Confederacy trying to conquer the state, and the Union sending reinforcements. 

Regards,

[1bigrich]

Jun 24, 2024 16:02:10 GMT stevep said:

  There would likely be some conflict in the state definitely between the factions.  However the south are screwed pretty damned quickly here as, as long as N Carolina holds until reinforcements arrive it leaves the south in a hopeless position.  Doubly so if say Tennessee follows its actions which it possibly might do. 

  Even if the state declares it won't secede but won't support any attacks on the rebel states it leaves the southern transport system fatally compromised, especially in terms of Virginia's position.

  The other point is with a much shorter war is there the will to pass the emancipation proclamation?  It might be that Lincoln is able to free slaves in rebel states but doesn't have the political support to pass such measures in loyal slave states.  Which would probably delay the final total end of slavery by a while, although it will no doubt come, probably with some perhaps generous compensation system for slave owners.

Hi Steve,
There were a number of Unionist enclaves in the South.    Here's a county-by-county map I've found


preview.redd.it/lqko3ieu7cz11.png?auto=webp&s=91d40f3821461e0ec147cc6b71dfc3af7b890381

There were a number of Union Army Regiments from Southern States as well, though things do get a little gray (no pun intended) when differentiating between white units and those made of freed former slaves.

Good point on the transportation system; western North Carolina is pretty rugged, and with the Union Navy off the coast, there's very little in ways around the state.  

I think the Emancipation Proclamation still happens.   The original text free slaves only in those states in rebellion.   So Maryland, Kentucky and Delaware, for example, were unaffected.  

It's important to remember to that Lincoln did not run on a promise end slavery.   His campaign position was to permit no more slave states into the Union.   That would see the power of the slave states/South wane in coming years.   Further, his position was one of Federalism.   The States could legally have slavery under the Constitution, but the Federal government had the purview over who was a US citizen.   When he was inaugurated for the first time, there were actually five bills to federalize slavery in the US Congress, and as I recall he said he would like to see any of them pass.     Not to say Lincoln was pro-slavery, he was an abolitionist Republican but also a realist.   Before the war it seem to me he was much on in a 'put slavery on a path to extinction' rather than a 'end it outright right now' position.  

My additional thoughts, 

[stevep]

Jun 25, 2024 16:43:39 GMT 1bigrich said:

Jun 24, 2024 16:02:10 GMT stevep said:

  There would likely be some conflict in the state definitely between the factions.  However the south are screwed pretty damned quickly here as, as long as N Carolina holds until reinforcements arrive it leaves the south in a hopeless position.  Doubly so if say Tennessee follows its actions which it possibly might do. 

  Even if the state declares it won't secede but won't support any attacks on the rebel states it leaves the southern transport system fatally compromised, especially in terms of Virginia's position.

  The other point is with a much shorter war is there the will to pass the emancipation proclamation?  It might be that Lincoln is able to free slaves in rebel states but doesn't have the political support to pass such measures in loyal slave states.  Which would probably delay the final total end of slavery by a while, although it will no doubt come, probably with some perhaps generous compensation system for slave owners.

Hi Steve,
There were a number of Unionist enclaves in the South.    Here's a county-by-county map I've found


preview.redd.it/lqko3ieu7cz11.png?auto=webp&s=91d40f3821461e0ec147cc6b71dfc3af7b890381

There were a number of Union Army Regiments from Southern States as well, though things do get a little gray (no pun intended) when differentiating between white units and those made of freed former slaves.

Good point on the transportation system; western North Carolina is pretty rugged, and with the Union Navy off the coast, there's very little in ways around the state.  

I think the Emancipation Proclamation still happens.   The original text free slaves only in those states in rebellion.   So Maryland, Kentucky and Delaware, for example, were unaffected.  

It's important to remember to that Lincoln did not run on a promise end slavery.   His campaign position was to permit no more slave states into the Union.   That would see the power of the slave states/South wane in coming years.   Further, his position was one of Federalism.   The States could legally have slavery under the Constitution, but the Federal government had the purview over who was a US citizen.   When he was inaugurated for the first time, there were actually five bills to federalize slavery in the US Congress, and as I recall he said he would like to see any of them pass.     Not to say Lincoln was pro-slavery, he was an abolitionist Republican but also a realist.   Before the war it seem to me he was much on in a 'put slavery on a path to extinction' rather than a 'end it outright right now' position.  

My additional thoughts, 

  Ah sorry, poor phasing on my part.  I meant the decision to end all slavery, which was passed in 1965 IIRC and including those in loyal slave states.  It could be this isn't passed here, at least during this period which would include Maryland, Kentucky and Delaware as well as also here N Carolina.  Slavery would almost certainly be ended in those states within a decade or two but probably under different circumstances.  Also raises the question of what sort of reconstruction might occur in the defeated rebels?

[Max Sinister]

I can't imagine that they'd still move their capital from Montgomery to Richmond.

[American hist]

I don't see this happening without North Carolina following Virginia's example. Nowadays, it is true that North Carolina's economy is outpacing Virginia's, but it wasn't true then. During the signing of the Declaration of Independence, the fate of Virginia and South Carolina determined the fate of North Carolina and less prominent colonies such as Maryland and Georgia 100 years before the American Civil War.

The state of Virginia's nickname, Old Dominion, wasn't given that name for anything. It had historically been confirmed that the other upper South states were something akin to satellite states compared to the wealth, power, and historical prestige Virginia received, not other colonies or states.

From whashington to James Monroe save Adams, Virginia was Home to the American presidents and only found the hickory presidents(Andrew Jackson and James k polk, both of whom were frontier scot Irish folk.

People can hate the movie Gods and Generals, but the scene portrayed an essential point: the tremendously famous planters of the South, many of whom had ancestors from Virginia. The South, which based a lot of civilian and medieval romanticism upon Virginia's rich historical history and the descendants of that great state, was indeed based upon Virginia's rich historical history.

In the revolution and afterward, Virginia remained faithful to the ideas of the revolution, with nearby areas adopting Virginia's ordinances. North Carolina's rocky soil was largely unsuitable for plantation life, but this wasn't true for Virginia. (I'm not denying North Carolina tobacco)Nathan Macon, the VP pick for William Crawford, a Monroe, Virginia political dynasty pick, is an example of Virginia's power.

In the colonial American period, Delaware and Maryland had much of their gentry from Virginia. Without Virginia, the confederacy seems significantly less likely to succeed. The Deep South founding fathers were nothing in comparison to the Tidewater elite founders, who mostly hail from Virginia.

[Max Sinister]

In GWTW it's stated that the "good society" of the South knows everyone who is someone in Virginia, SC or Georgia - and how they think that no one from a different state would count.

[American hist]

Virginia has such a history that is remembered, such as Jamestown, which is what many Southerners considered the birth of their culture. Scholars and amateurs had believed the north and south divide happened in Jamestown vs Plymouth Rock To this day, Virginia has an enchanting effect on its inhabitants. While I have visited North Carolina and Virginia many times and recently have visited the Tar Heel state more, Virginia remains a distinctive place where, to me, if a part of my heart does not remain in it, then a part of my home is in that state.

Douglas MacArthur's military carer demanded he move to many places, but he still called Virginia home, despite not being born there or spent most of his life there as was true with my mother, who, too, calls Virginia home who She was also a navy brat moving frequently to different places . North Carolina is nice, but it doesn't have the same effects.

Of all the southern states that may give you a maritime feeling, Virginia is one of them.

of course, some of this is subjective, but North Carolina as a colony developed from a backwater of South Carolina full of outcasts.
(Carolina was first settled in what would be Charleston, then Charles Town, which was South Carolina. Settlers didn't settle north Carolina until later
fun fact: the forces that helped capture Blackbird were from Virginia, along with the crew that put his crew on trial and took the pirated to virgina because Virginia had a stronger government