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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jul 17, 2024 10:56:16 GMT
What if Rome never rises and the Italian Peninsula remains disunited? One might say that Carthage would greatly benefit from this situation - perhaps. But would Carthage be interested in conquering all of Italy? Basically let's say by 250 BC Italy still looks roughly like this:  Initial thoughts 1. Carthage would benefit greatly. Expect at least Sicily and Sardinia to fall under Carthaginian control.l but it's unlikely that it'd eant to control the entire Peninsula except via allies or client states 2. The Celtic tribes on the north might push deeper south 3. The post Alexander states would surely last longer. Ptolemaic Egypt lasted until 30 BC without much trouble so the Seleucids and Macedonia should last well into the Common Era. 4. Germanic tribes would push further west - without a unified empire to stop them we might expect them to seize significant parts pf Gaul. 5. Europe in general would be significantly more diverse linguistically. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 17, 2024 15:48:47 GMT
What if Rome never rises and the Italian Peninsula remains disunited? One might say that Carthage would greatly benefit from this situation - perhaps. But would Carthage be interested in conquering all of Italy? Basically let's say by 250 BC Italy still looks roughly like this: |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jul 17, 2024 16:18:01 GMT
What if Rome never rises and the Italian Peninsula remains disunited? One might say that Carthage would greatly benefit from this situation - perhaps. But would Carthage be interested in conquering all of Italy? Basically let's say by 250 BC Italy still looks roughly like this: Done  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 17, 2024 16:21:51 GMT
More question than your own opinion, this is your final time, otherwise threads start closing, going to give you 1 change to edit your first post and i will keep it open, if not i close it 24 hours from now. Done Much better, thanks. |
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Post by raharris1973 on Aug 29, 2024 13:50:32 GMT
Done Much better, thanks. How many centuries more would diadochi Greek kingdoms and Carthaginian states last in this world before being replaced by something else? Would Gallic language spread down in into Italy? By Caesar’s time, Germanic tribes and speech were displacing Gallic-Celtic along the Rhine and in southern Germany and in Austria. Without a Roman Empire, would Germanic languages and cultures spread south and west faster into Gaul, Iberia, Italy? With Latin being “nothing special” as a language and alphabet of knowledge transmission would Greek script and maybe Punic be European lingua Franca? Or might there be a multiplicity of scripts? Germanic runic/futhark? Celtic Ogham? |
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Post by raharris1973 on Aug 29, 2024 13:51:57 GMT
How pace of tech advance in Europe be different? The heavy plow? Stirrrups? Crop rotation? Clover? Water mills? Glass ware?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 29, 2024 14:28:13 GMT
How many centuries more would diadochi Greek kingdoms and Carthaginian states last in this world before being replaced by something else? Would Gallic language spread down in into Italy? By Caesar’s time, Germanic tribes and speech were displacing Gallic-Celtic along the Rhine and in southern Germany and in Austria. Without a Roman Empire, would Germanic languages and cultures spread south and west faster into Gaul, Iberia, Italy? With Latin being “nothing special” as a language and alphabet of knowledge transmission would Greek script and maybe Punic be European lingua Franca? Or might there be a multiplicity of scripts? Germanic runic/futhark? Celtic Ogham? Think i am not smart enough to answer this question. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 29, 2024 17:01:49 GMT
How many centuries more would diadochi Greek kingdoms and Carthaginian states last in this world before being replaced by something else? Would Gallic language spread down in into Italy? By Caesar’s time, Germanic tribes and speech were displacing Gallic-Celtic along the Rhine and in southern Germany and in Austria. Without a Roman Empire, would Germanic languages and cultures spread south and west faster into Gaul, Iberia, Italy? With Latin being “nothing special” as a language and alphabet of knowledge transmission would Greek script and maybe Punic be European lingua Franca? Or might there be a multiplicity of scripts? Germanic runic/futhark? Celtic Ogham? Think i am not smart enough to answer this question.
In terms of saying it with confidence there probably isn't anyone who could honesty do so. 
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 29, 2024 17:14:27 GMT
How pace of tech advance in Europe be different? The heavy plow? Stirrrups? Crop rotation? Clover? Water mills? Glass ware?
A lot would depend on the circumstances but without Rome uniting Italy and then going on to overrun the Med region and parts beyond and assuming that no one else does you continue to have competing states and tribes which should prompt broader technological and social change and flexibility. One issue might be would the different social and religious circumstances, as your unlikely to have a small Jewish sect rise to dominance across the region, encourage or deter such changes prompting intellectual and technological progress?
A unified empire, at least while its in its prime does have bonuses in terms of a larger and often richer market for goods and making far more practical a lot of construction of facilities and longer range trade deals although as it stagnates it tends to be less encouraging to such activity and a large dominant state without a clear rival tends to discourage new ideas.
Overall I would say that social and technological change would be faster without a massive empire dominating the region for several centuries and its memory and influence lasting long beyond that but its still difficult to know for certain why the ancient theories and dabbling of members of a rich elite in philosophy and science that was common across many parts of the world with an agricultural culture turned into the social and technological revolutions that occurred in western and central Europe in the past few centuries.
The people and nations of the region without a great empire would come under continued threat both from internal conflicts between the states and also external invaders. However possibly largely infantry based tribal nations from the northern forests and mountains would be less shattering to societies than the nomadic steppe tribes who are unlikely to have the same effect in projecting power deep into the northern Med region. Although you might still have such nomadic hordes sweeping through areas south and east of the Med, which would include its richest lands for probably most of the period.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 29, 2024 17:16:31 GMT
Think i am not smart enough to answer this question. In terms of saying it with confidence there probably isn't anyone who could honesty do so. Well its the truth, even with the Real Time projects i am no expert. |
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Post by Max Sinister on Aug 31, 2024 10:47:40 GMT
In 390, the Celts took Rome and almost got the Capitol too. ITTL they may turn it into a permanent base. It wouldn't even be their southernmost one, as they got as far as Galatia in Asia Minor.
After that... maybe Europe stays disunited and may one day fall as the Huns or so invade it. (That's a suggestion from Gurps AE.)
I'd like to see a big TL which covers the development of science and tech. Or even better, write it myself. With Jaredia, I tried. But if you don't just want to copy OTL, that's a lot of work.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 31, 2024 13:06:17 GMT
In 390, the Celts took Rome and almost got the Capitol too. ITTL they may turn it into a permanent base. It wouldn't even be their southernmost one, as they got as far as Galatia in Asia Minor. After that... maybe Europe stays disunited and may one day fall as the Huns or so invade it. (That's a suggestion from Gurps AE.) I'd like to see a big TL which covers the development of science and tech. Or even better, write it myself. With Jaredia, I tried. But if you don't just want to copy OTL, that's a lot of work.
Its definitely an option or simply the Romans put up more of a fight and its a bloody sack with many of the healthy survivors carried away as slaves. Possibly followed by infighting among the remaining Latin states for dominance which exhausts them. Italy is divided into multiple powers with assorted Greek settlements in the south and the Gauls then either some settled peoples end up playing the Etruscan role or come in from elsewhere. Carthage could end up being the dominant power in the west and central Med but with largely a mercantile empire in part due to internal divisions between the assorted factions. Unless someone in the Greek world manages to become a new Alexander of course.
In the east you might have the Seleucid's becoming the dominant power in the former Persian empires, possibly including Anatolia and Egypt or being overrun sooner or later by either nomadic invaders or an Iranian revival at some stage. I'm not sure how far west such a Seleucid empire is likely to come.
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Post by Max Sinister on Aug 31, 2024 14:12:50 GMT
It'd be quite an achievement for the Seleucids to come as far as Greece, let alone Italy.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 31, 2024 19:09:11 GMT
It'd be quite an achievement for the Seleucids to come as far as Greece, let alone Italy.
Greece possibly, if that region is divided and the Seleucids really get it together but that would be a stretch and especially since there are many other, sometimes richer areas for their interests. Would agree that Italy would be way too far.
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Post by American hist on Sept 19, 2024 2:40:22 GMT
I have heard it Been said and I can’t remember who The Carthaginian Empire and the Roman Empire could not be compatible to live in peace. What the Carthaginians would do is control the Mediterranean, including Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica. If the Romans are the ones posing a threat in Carthage would probably subdue After all, they’re not that wealthy to trade with during that time.
It has been a long time since my passion was of the age So anyone is More than welcome to correct me
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