Reichsmarine into the 40s

[lordroel]

So i am interested in the Reichsmarine, the naval branch of the Reichswehr, existing from 1919 to 1935, i wonder, how would it look like in a certain corporal fell down the stair of something, would it try to remain fix to its Treaty of Versailles limit of six pre-dreadnought battleships (plus two in reserve), six cruisers (plus two in reserve), twelve destroyers (plus four in reserve), and twelve torpedo boats (plus four in reserve), try to bend it as much as possible ore in the middle of the 1930s, say, the Soviet Union is to much a threat, we need a bigger navy, so we are going to build a bigger navy.

[stevep]

Jul 25, 2024 16:27:02 GMT lordroel said:

So i am interested in the Reichsmarine, the naval branch of the Reichswehr, existing from 1919 to 1935, i wonder, how would it look like in a certain corporal fell down the stair of something, would it try to remain fix to its Treaty of Versailles limit of six pre-dreadnought battleships (plus two in reserve), six cruisers (plus two in reserve), twelve destroyers (plus four in reserve), and twelve torpedo boats (plus four in reserve), try to bend it as much as possible ore in the middle of the 1930s, say, the Soviet Union is to much a threat, we need a bigger navy, so we are going to build a bigger navy.

  Well IIRC I think the so called pocket battleships were planned prior to Hitler gaining power so their likely to go ahead.  In turn with growing resentment in numerous powers about their current relative status and the determination of Italy and hence France to build new ships, plus Stalin plotting massive units and Japan going increasingly insanely militaristic the naval treaties aren't going to last.  Plus even the US and UK realise they need new ships as despite reconstructions their existing big ships won't last much longer.  While technically this doesn't affect Germany which is limited by the separate Versailles Treaty if there's widespread naval construction around the world its unlikely that such continued tight restrictions will be popular in Berlin and its likely that no power in western Europe are likely to object too much, especially if the German government isn't as erratic and violent as OTL.

  How much it would increase and in what ways would depend on the actual circumstances but initially the main 'target' would the USSR so it might be more cruisers and smaller BC type units along with some land based air.  This would probably have political benefits as its not a clear threat to the allies, as say starting a major U boat would, especially for Britain and hence it would ease fears in western Europe about a German programme.

[lordroel]

Jul 25, 2024 17:52:11 GMT stevep said:

Jul 25, 2024 16:27:02 GMT lordroel said:

So i am interested in the Reichsmarine, the naval branch of the Reichswehr, existing from 1919 to 1935, i wonder, how would it look like in a certain corporal fell down the stair of something, would it try to remain fix to its Treaty of Versailles limit of six pre-dreadnought battleships (plus two in reserve), six cruisers (plus two in reserve), twelve destroyers (plus four in reserve), and twelve torpedo boats (plus four in reserve), try to bend it as much as possible ore in the middle of the 1930s, say, the Soviet Union is to much a threat, we need a bigger navy, so we are going to build a bigger navy.

  Well IIRC I think the so called pocket battleships were planned prior to Hitler gaining power so their likely to go ahead.  In turn with growing resentment in numerous powers about their current relative status and the determination of Italy and hence France to build new ships, plus Stalin plotting massive units and Japan going increasingly insanely militaristic the naval treaties aren't going to last.  Plus even the US and UK realise they need new ships as despite reconstructions their existing big ships won't last much longer.  While technically this doesn't affect Germany which is limited by the separate Versailles Treaty if there's widespread naval construction around the world its unlikely that such continued tight restrictions will be popular in Berlin and its likely that no power in western Europe are likely to object too much, especially if the German government isn't as erratic and violent as OTL.

  How much it would increase and in what ways would depend on the actual circumstances but initially the main 'target' would the USSR so it might be more cruisers and smaller BC type units along with some land based air.  This would probably have political benefits as its not a clear threat to the allies, as say starting a major U boat would, especially for Britain and hence it would ease fears in western Europe about a German programme.

could we see the Deutschland-class cruiser be build 1 to 1 to replace the 3 Deutschland-class battleships and 3 active Braunschweig-class battleships.

[575]

Jul 25, 2024 18:08:07 GMT lordroel said:

Jul 25, 2024 17:52:11 GMT stevep said:

  Well IIRC I think the so called pocket battleships were planned prior to Hitler gaining power so their likely to go ahead.  In turn with growing resentment in numerous powers about their current relative status and the determination of Italy and hence France to build new ships, plus Stalin plotting massive units and Japan going increasingly insanely militaristic the naval treaties aren't going to last.  Plus even the US and UK realise they need new ships as despite reconstructions their existing big ships won't last much longer.  While technically this doesn't affect Germany which is limited by the separate Versailles Treaty if there's widespread naval construction around the world its unlikely that such continued tight restrictions will be popular in Berlin and its likely that no power in western Europe are likely to object too much, especially if the German government isn't as erratic and violent as OTL.

  How much it would increase and in what ways would depend on the actual circumstances but initially the main 'target' would the USSR so it might be more cruisers and smaller BC type units along with some land based air.  This would probably have political benefits as its not a clear threat to the allies, as say starting a major U boat would, especially for Britain and hence it would ease fears in western Europe about a German programme.

could we see the Deutschland-class cruiser be build 1 to 1 to replace the 3 Deutschland-class battleships and 3 active Braunschweig-class battleships.

If You are talking about these - then yes possibly as it was planned by the Reichsmarine to replace those pre-Dreadnoughts - all six and possibly two in reserve as that were within Versailles stipulations even if OTL only the three were built. However there was also the clause that Germany could build armoured ships or cruiser- types of 10,000 tons each; so in reality they build something of both and got away with it.

[lordroel]

Jul 25, 2024 20:31:07 GMT 575 said:

Jul 25, 2024 18:08:07 GMT lordroel said:

could we see the Deutschland-class cruiser be build 1 to 1 to replace the 3 Deutschland-class battleships and 3 active Braunschweig-class battleships.

If You are talking about these - then yes possibly as it was planned by the Reichsmarine to replace those pre-Dreadnoughts - all six and possibly two in reserve as that were within Versailles stipulations even if OTL only the three were built. However there was also the clause that Germany could build armoured ships or cruiser- types of 10,000 tons each; so in reality they build something of both and got away with it.

Would they not build a batch of three and then build 3 if posabile upgraded versions of the Deutschland-class.

[575]

Jul 26, 2024 7:32:58 GMT lordroel said:

Jul 25, 2024 20:31:07 GMT 575 said:

If You are talking about these - then yes possibly as it was planned by the Reichsmarine to replace those pre-Dreadnoughts - all six and possibly two in reserve as that were within Versailles stipulations even if OTL only the three were built. However there was also the clause that Germany could build armoured ships or cruiser- types of 10,000 tons each; so in reality they build something of both and got away with it.

Would they not build a batch of three and then build 3 if posabile upgraded versions of the Deutschland-class.

They might well except for the wakes they made OTL - with the French building the Dunkerque class fast battleships/battlecruisers. Found these interesting sites - from US Naval Institute and Global Security both well worth a read along the various Wiki pages.

The thing is it was seen prior to the Nazi's an aggressive move of the Germans as the 3 Deutschland class cruisers was seen to outmatch the Soviet Baltic Fleet. Thus at least the French would be vocal against other additional builds.

As with the case of multi-engine aircraft the Reichmarine had outsourced its tech development of Submarines to subsidiaries in Netherlands!, Finland and Spain. I found traces of this in writing the A Window of Opportunity 1905 which made my then having Germans assist the Nordic's in Submarine tactics correct. The Reichmarine also had readied the builds of the first Submarines for when the political situation would make such possible.

So in your alternate world a more Navy oriented Soviet Union like the 1920's cooperation with Fascist Italy where the Soviets paid for new Cruisers with oil and coal for Italian Navy tech driving into a wholesale modernization by the Italians of the Soviet Navy - initially the Baltic (OTL the ships went to the Black Sea) and Musso being overprotecting Austria could be the driver for the W Allies allowing Germany an enlarged Navy without too much fuss or 10 Dunkerque's!

[stevep]

Jul 26, 2024 9:19:37 GMT 575 said:

Jul 26, 2024 7:32:58 GMT lordroel said:

Would they not build a batch of three and then build 3 if posabile upgraded versions of the Deutschland-class.

They might well except for the wakes they made OTL - with the French building the Dunkerque class fast battleships/battlecruisers. Found these interesting sites - from US Naval Institute and Global Security both well worth a read along the various Wiki pages.

The thing is it was seen prior to the Nazi's an aggressive move of the Germans as the 3 Deutschland class cruisers was seen to outmatch the Soviet Baltic Fleet. Thus at least the French would be vocal against other additional builds.

As with the case of multi-engine aircraft the Reichmarine had outsourced its tech development of Submarines to subsidiaries in Netherlands!, Finland and Spain. I found traces of this in writing the A Window of Opportunity 1905 which made my then having Germans assist the Nordic's in Submarine tactics correct. The Reichmarine also had readied the builds of the first Submarines for when the political situation would make such possible.

So in your alternate world a more Navy oriented Soviet Union like the 1920's cooperation with Fascist Italy where the Soviets paid for new Cruisers with oil and coal for Italian Navy tech driving into a wholesale modernization by the Italians of the Soviet Navy - initially the Baltic (OTL the ships went to the Black Sea) and Musso being overprotecting Austria could be the driver for the W Allies allowing Germany an enlarged Navy without too much fuss or 10 Dunkerque's!

  Would agree that more than three would probably trigger a French reaction and any sub programme would have both Paris and far more so London reacting.  If there was clear evidence of a major Soviet build up some of the tension with the western neighbours might be less depending on the behaviour of the German government here. However there would be a reaction which might come anyway - albeit with different targets - if you get something similar to the OTL Italian and especially Japanese actions.

[lordroel]

Jul 26, 2024 9:47:00 GMT stevep said:

Jul 26, 2024 9:19:37 GMT 575 said:

They might well except for the wakes they made OTL - with the French building the Dunkerque class fast battleships/battlecruisers. Found these interesting sites - from US Naval Institute and Global Security both well worth a read along the various Wiki pages.

The thing is it was seen prior to the Nazi's an aggressive move of the Germans as the 3 Deutschland class cruisers was seen to outmatch the Soviet Baltic Fleet. Thus at least the French would be vocal against other additional builds.

As with the case of multi-engine aircraft the Reichmarine had outsourced its tech development of Submarines to subsidiaries in Netherlands!, Finland and Spain. I found traces of this in writing the A Window of Opportunity 1905 which made my then having Germans assist the Nordic's in Submarine tactics correct. The Reichmarine also had readied the builds of the first Submarines for when the political situation would make such possible.

So in your alternate world a more Navy oriented Soviet Union like the 1920's cooperation with Fascist Italy where the Soviets paid for new Cruisers with oil and coal for Italian Navy tech driving into a wholesale modernization by the Italians of the Soviet Navy - initially the Baltic (OTL the ships went to the Black Sea) and Musso being overprotecting Austria could be the driver for the W Allies allowing Germany an enlarged Navy without too much fuss or 10 Dunkerque's!

  Would agree that more than three would probably trigger a French reaction and any sub programme would have both Paris and far more so London reacting.  If there was clear evidence of a major Soviet build up some of the tension with the western neighbours might be less depending on the behaviour of the German government here. However there would be a reaction which might come anyway - albeit with different targets - if you get something similar to the OTL Italian and especially Japanese actions.

But how long would England and France look into holding the limits that the Reichsmarine is allowed be made up if they see the Soviet Union get more aggressive, would they not think, a strong Reichsmarine that is friendly to us is better than a Soviet Navy that is going to patrol at our doorstep.

[stevep]

Jul 26, 2024 9:58:34 GMT lordroel said:

Jul 26, 2024 9:47:00 GMT stevep said:

  Would agree that more than three would probably trigger a French reaction and any sub programme would have both Paris and far more so London reacting.  If there was clear evidence of a major Soviet build up some of the tension with the western neighbours might be less depending on the behaviour of the German government here. However there would be a reaction which might come anyway - albeit with different targets - if you get something similar to the OTL Italian and especially Japanese actions.

But how long would England and France look into holding the limits that the Reichsmarine is allowed be made up if they see the Soviet Union get more aggressive, would they not think, a strong Reichsmarine that is friendly to us is better than a Soviet Navy that is going to patrol at our doorstep.

  They would probably be more willing to accept a stronger German fleet - to a degree possibly more an army - if Stalin was looking distinctly aggressive.  I can't see the Versailles limits continuing to apply.  However if the force starts including stuff with longer range, or especially significant numbers of subs its going to be clear Germany isn't thinking primary of a counter to the Red Navy in the Baltic.  Plus with the nature problems the Soviets would have with 4 fleets scattered around the world all unable to support each other and the primary fleets in Baltic and Black Seas being greatly restricted by geography its going to look less threatening than a large Germany navy which is primarily designed to operate beyond the Baltic.

[575]

Looked a little more into the Soviet Navy - seems it had Italy building a DD Tashkent 1935-39:

isn't she a beauty?


and Ansaldo would help/oversee the building of CL Kirov class of eventually 6 units 1935-22 June 41 (last 2 finished post WW") based on the Italian CL Raimondo Montecuccoli:



Of other influences was Italian Submarine designs, French DD Leaders Leningrad class build in France and German Submarine designs such as the prototype class VII build in Spain and Soviet Union obtaining blueprints from Germany. The RN Minelaying Sub L-55 that was sunk during the British intervention in the Russian Civil War was raised and became part design inspiration of the Leninets class.

Without Hitler in power the Weimar Republic have to face a growing increase in Soviet Baltic Navy of 3 Battleships - 2 in Northern Fleet and 1 in Baltic. There was also the 4 BC hulls leftover from the Russian Imperial Navy - one being considered build as an Aircraft Carrier! though 3 were sold for scrap to Germany and the last broken up 1931. Two BC's were laid down 1939 but the Soviets had problems procuring the main armament. So a VERY WI!

[575]

Jul 26, 2024 11:39:18 GMT stevep said:

Jul 26, 2024 9:58:34 GMT lordroel said:

But how long would England and France look into holding the limits that the Reichsmarine is allowed be made up if they see the Soviet Union get more aggressive, would they not think, a strong Reichsmarine that is friendly to us is better than a Soviet Navy that is going to patrol at our doorstep.

  They would probably be more willing to accept a stronger German fleet - to a degree possibly more an army - if Stalin was looking distinctly aggressive.  I can't see the Versailles limits continuing to apply.  However if the force starts including stuff with longer range, or especially significant numbers of subs its going to be clear Germany isn't thinking primary of a counter to the Red Navy in the Baltic.  Plus with the nature problems the Soviets would have with 4 fleets scattered around the world all unable to support each other and the primary fleets in Baltic and Black Seas being greatly restricted by geography its going to look less threatening than a large Germany navy which is primarily designed to operate beyond the Baltic.

So ideally the Reichmarine should have limited the Deutschland Cruiser class to some 5,000 NM range instead of the raider range of 10,000 NM to not upset Britain and France..

[lordroel]

Jul 26, 2024 12:01:18 GMT 575 said:

Jul 26, 2024 11:39:18 GMT stevep said:

So ideally the Reichmarine should have limited the Deutschland Cruiser class to some 5,000 NM range instead of the raider range of 10,000 NM to not upset Britain and France..

As long it can handle anything the Soviets might build in the Baltic.

Doubt we will see them in the Pacific supporting allied forces in the Great Pacific War of 1941 to 1945.

[1bigrich]

I think a Weimar Marine fleet in the 30s would depend a lot on WM diplomacy.

Admiral Zeneker was hoping that Germany would rejoin the family of nations, get a tonnage increase and get a capital ship caliber increase to 12in. His 1928 battlecruiser design was based on this hope



It would have been 17,500 tons with 8 x 12in in four twin turrets. Zeneker was hoping the talk of limiting capital ships to 12in guns would prevail and Germany could be permitted that caliber. Of course, that never materialized at First London, though there were some concepts. And Vickers did design a triple turret to use the 12in Mk XIV built-up gun.

With Dunquerque in the MN, the panzarschiffe as built seemed like a dead end.

If diplomacy does prevail, we might see something like Raeder's Design D panzarschiffe.



Design D would have been 19,000 or 20,000 tons, with six 11in like the previous panzarschiffe, in two triple turrets.

Lighter forces would probably depend on diplomacy as well, whether Germany could convince the signatories of Versailles to relax those restrictions.

With increasing Soviet capability, especially in light forces, I think there might be a good chance that would happen. If so, the WM might be a small but balanced fleet in the '30s and '40s.

My thoughts,

[stevep]

Jul 26, 2024 12:01:18 GMT 575 said:

Jul 26, 2024 11:39:18 GMT stevep said:

  They would probably be more willing to accept a stronger German fleet - to a degree possibly more an army - if Stalin was looking distinctly aggressive.  I can't see the Versailles limits continuing to apply.  However if the force starts including stuff with longer range, or especially significant numbers of subs its going to be clear Germany isn't thinking primary of a counter to the Red Navy in the Baltic.  Plus with the nature problems the Soviets would have with 4 fleets scattered around the world all unable to support each other and the primary fleets in Baltic and Black Seas being greatly restricted by geography its going to look less threatening than a large Germany navy which is primarily designed to operate beyond the Baltic.

So ideally the Reichmarine should have limited the Deutschland Cruiser class to some 5,000 NM range instead of the raider range of 10,000 NM to not upset Britain and France..

  I think it depends on their intent and also what other people knew about them.  IIRC there was some argument that they were to secure domination in the Baltic's and some that they and possibly also the later twins were to present a threat to the French in the event of war with them.  Not sure how practical the latter is because any conflict between Germany and France is going to be largely continental and also with limited access to the sea and the possible impact on British opinion such a programme would seem unwise.

  As such the range the ships actually have seem to be ill-fitting to their alleged purpose v the Soviets as it doesn't fit in with operations in the enclosed and relatively small Baltic Sea and apart from any negative impact on relations with the western powers of a longer range than in itself takes resources/tonnage that could have been used elsewhere in a ship for primary Baltic operations.  It depends on what the actual aims of the pre-Hitler government who designed them and possibly their understanding [or not] of the implications of their decisions.

[575]

Jul 26, 2024 15:37:35 GMT stevep said:

Jul 26, 2024 12:01:18 GMT 575 said:

So ideally the Reichmarine should have limited the Deutschland Cruiser class to some 5,000 NM range instead of the raider range of 10,000 NM to not upset Britain and France..

  I think it depends on their intent and also what other people knew about them.  IIRC there was some argument that they were to secure domination in the Baltic's and some that they and possibly also the later twins were to present a threat to the French in the event of war with them.  Not sure how practical the latter is because any conflict between Germany and France is going to be largely continental and also with limited access to the sea and the possible impact on British opinion such a programme would seem unwise.

  As such the range the ships actually have seem to be ill-fitting to their alleged purpose v the Soviets as it doesn't fit in with operations in the enclosed and relatively small Baltic Sea and apart from any negative impact on relations with the western powers of a longer range than in itself takes resources/tonnage that could have been used elsewhere in a ship for primary Baltic operations.  It depends on what the actual aims of the pre-Hitler government who designed them and possibly their understanding [or not] of the implications of their decisions.

I remember reading somewhere that the German Admiralty prior to WWII - but can't remember how prior though think it was before 1933 - that the way of hitting the British at sea was besides Submarines to be done by long-range raiders. So to some degree they were aiming for that with the design.