Borki October 29, 1888 - Russian Imperial Family wiped out in train disaster

[575]

Back in 1997 there was an exebition at Christiansborg Palace, seat of Parliament former Royal Residence about Empress Dagmar of Imperial Russia. One of the items was her letter to her parents of the Borki train disaster in which the Imperial Family survived. Can't remember if that had the story of Alexander III holding the roof of the restaurant waggon for his family to escape.

What would have happened if the Imperial Family had been wiped out?

Of course there was royalty to uphold it in Russia but I stumble upon this interesting piece - forget about the Divine protection and think about this - would railway building slow down in Imperial Russia putting it at a disadvantage as everybody else would be building railways?

The Trans-Sibirian Railwas was in planning - will this delay Russian build-up in the Far East making its position there worse. Though the project was going could the death of the two who made the Imperial Rescript - Tsar Alexander III and Tsarevich Nicholas impede the process and would there be other issues surfacing?

[stevep]

Aug 5, 2024 13:53:38 GMT 575 said:

Back in 1997 there was an exebition at Christiansborg Palace, seat of Parliament former Royal Residence about Empress Dagmar of Imperial Russia. One of the items was her letter to her parents of the Borki train disaster in which the Imperial Family survived. Can't remember if that had the story of Alexander III holding the roof of the restaurant waggon for his family to escape.

What would have happened if the Imperial Family had been wiped out?

Of course there was royalty to uphold it in Russia but I stumble upon this interesting piece - forget about the Divine protection and think about this - would railway building slow down in Imperial Russia putting it at a disadvantage as everybody else would be building railways?

The Trans-Sibirian Railwas was in planning - will this delay Russian build-up in the Far East making its position there worse. Though the project was going could the death of the two who made the Imperial Rescript - Tsar Alexander III and Tsarevich Nicholas impede the process and would there be other issues surfacing?

  A lot might depend on who becomes Czar with the core royalty being wiped out so dramatically.  Also if it had been so devastating you might well have rumours of sabotage, whether as a cover up or to seek to raise sympathy for the dynasty and hostility towards at least some reformists.

  I doubt the railway construction would be massively affected, unless you get a real idiot in control as their simply too important for a major nation of that time, especially one as large as Russia.  If there was a delay in completion of the Trans-Siberian railway that might, other butterflies aside, delay a clash with Japan as the latter planned its war in response to the threat posed by the completion of the railway.

[575]

Aug 5, 2024 16:43:34 GMT stevep said:

Aug 5, 2024 13:53:38 GMT 575 said:

Back in 1997 there was an exebition at Christiansborg Palace, seat of Parliament former Royal Residence about Empress Dagmar of Imperial Russia. One of the items was her letter to her parents of the Borki train disaster in which the Imperial Family survived. Can't remember if that had the story of Alexander III holding the roof of the restaurant waggon for his family to escape.

What would have happened if the Imperial Family had been wiped out?

Of course there was royalty to uphold it in Russia but I stumble upon this interesting piece - forget about the Divine protection and think about this - would railway building slow down in Imperial Russia putting it at a disadvantage as everybody else would be building railways?

The Trans-Sibirian Railwas was in planning - will this delay Russian build-up in the Far East making its position there worse. Though the project was going could the death of the two who made the Imperial Rescript - Tsar Alexander III and Tsarevich Nicholas impede the process and would there be other issues surfacing?

  A lot might depend on who becomes Czar with the core royalty being wiped out so dramatically.  Also if it had been so devastating you might well have rumours of sabotage, whether as a cover up or to seek to raise sympathy for the dynasty and hostility towards at least some reformists.

  I doubt the railway construction would be massively affected, unless you get a real idiot in control as their simply too important for a major nation of that time, especially one as large as Russia.  If there was a delay in completion of the Trans-Siberian railway that might, other butterflies aside, delay a clash with Japan as the latter planned its war in response to the threat posed by the completion of the railway.

I must say I share Your views as I also think the railway building would continue - perhaps at slower progress.

If the Russian appearance in the Far East is delayed somewhat it may as You say the Japanese planned along the progress of the Russian railway building.

Would Japan go for an earlier larger conflict with China if Russia is delayed? The Russian lease of Port Arthur could be delayed for some years and Japan getting a firmer hold on Korea earlier un-contested by Russia.

Russian building of the Manchurian Railway would also be delayed and Japanese influenze in Manchuria increased.

Thus Russia could end up facing a more established Japan in Manchuria barring its way into the Chinese province and effectively Japan might have the problems of logistics the Russians suffered in the OTL Russo-Japanese war?

[stevep]

Aug 5, 2024 21:12:44 GMT 575 said:

Aug 5, 2024 16:43:34 GMT stevep said:

  A lot might depend on who becomes Czar with the core royalty being wiped out so dramatically.  Also if it had been so devastating you might well have rumours of sabotage, whether as a cover up or to seek to raise sympathy for the dynasty and hostility towards at least some reformists.

  I doubt the railway construction would be massively affected, unless you get a real idiot in control as their simply too important for a major nation of that time, especially one as large as Russia.  If there was a delay in completion of the Trans-Siberian railway that might, other butterflies aside, delay a clash with Japan as the latter planned its war in response to the threat posed by the completion of the railway.

I must say I share Your views as I also think the railway building would continue - perhaps at slower progress.

If the Russian appearance in the Far East is delayed somewhat it may as You say the Japanese planned along the progress of the Russian railway building.

Would Japan go for an earlier larger conflict with China if Russia is delayed? The Russian lease of Port Arthur could be delayed for some years and Japan getting a firmer hold on Korea earlier un-contested by Russia.

Russian building of the Manchurian Railway would also be delayed and Japanese influenze in Manchuria increased.

Thus Russia could end up facing a more established Japan in Manchuria barring its way into the Chinese province and effectively Japan might have the problems of logistics the Russians suffered in the OTL Russo-Japanese war?

  Interesting idea in the last point although if Japan pretty much had control of Manchuria one problem Russia would have would be defending the Trans-Siberian line along the length looping around the north of Manchuria.  - Although I'm not sure Japan would go for another war on China until they had cleared their northern flank by reducing the threat from Russia.  Plus until the Qing dynasty fell I suspect trying to take control of all Manchuria would probably mean a long war with China which might well get support from other nations.    It might also make Britain unwilling to go for the alliance with Japan depending on the timing of events.

  Plus Russia would still have serious logistical problems even if the Trans-Siberian was completed before a Russo-Japanese war as they would have to mount attacks markedly deeper into Japanese held territory and supply such forces.

[575]

Aug 5, 2024 21:52:40 GMT stevep said:

Aug 5, 2024 21:12:44 GMT 575 said:

I must say I share Your views as I also think the railway building would continue - perhaps at slower progress.

If the Russian appearance in the Far East is delayed somewhat it may as You say the Japanese planned along the progress of the Russian railway building.

Would Japan go for an earlier larger conflict with China if Russia is delayed? The Russian lease of Port Arthur could be delayed for some years and Japan getting a firmer hold on Korea earlier un-contested by Russia.

Russian building of the Manchurian Railway would also be delayed and Japanese influenze in Manchuria increased.

Thus Russia could end up facing a more established Japan in Manchuria barring its way into the Chinese province and effectively Japan might have the problems of logistics the Russians suffered in the OTL Russo-Japanese war?

  Interesting idea in the last point although if Japan pretty much had control of Manchuria one problem Russia would have would be defending the Trans-Siberian line along the length looping around the north of Manchuria.  - Although I'm not sure Japan would go for another war on China until they had cleared their northern flank by reducing the threat from Russia.  Plus until the Qing dynasty fell I suspect trying to take control of all Manchuria would probably mean a long war with China which might well get support from other nations.    It might also make Britain unwilling to go for the alliance with Japan depending on the timing of events.

  Plus Russia would still have serious logistical problems even if the Trans-Siberian was completed before a Russo-Japanese war as they would have to mount attacks markedly deeper into Japanese held territory and supply such forces.

Agree though I'd expect the timeframe to be something like 1895 to Boxer Rebellion (1900) - which would leave Japan less time to actually move on Manchuria though OTOH also with some dealy in building the Trans-Sibirian Railway the Russians would have less time than OTL 1897 to begin building the Manchuria Railway/Northeast Railway thus both parties would be less well situated in area.

Hence the Japanese would only be making inroads and the Russians not ready to jump at building the Manchuria Railway 1897 thus delaying this and giving the Japanese more time to move into Manchuria - hence not seen as such a threat by the other powers trying to get concessions from China on trade.

The Russians would still build Vladivostok Navy Base so the British may or may not consider an alliance with Japan. During the American Civil War the Sibirian Squadron had been enlarge but the majority of ships retreated following the end of hostilities making for a small squadron untill the early 20 Century so there won't be much of a Russian threat there.

[Max Sinister]

Who'd be the next Tsar?

[575]

Aug 6, 2024 12:05:22 GMT Max Sinister said:

Who'd be the next Tsar?

Grand Duke Vladimir Alexandrovich - Alexander's younger brother who died 1909. Vladimir's oldest son Kirill Vladimirovich would then become Tsesarevich.