Germany follow the Schlieffen Plan to the letter 1914

[575]

Reading a blog (go down to post Monday, July 24, 2024) I've referenced earlier Schlieffen wanted to include the Maastricht "Peninsular" in his Aufmarsch West - not stated but possibly to avoid the Belgian fortification which held up advance for some days. Molkte however removed the Netherlands from the plan of his and also moved one Army south to strengthen the Lorraine front.

As logistics demanded railway lines here be:

You may find the line running from Aachen west through the Maastricht Peninsular north of Liege however there is another line from Düsseldorf to the north of Aachen running west south of Venlo on the border and then west to Antwerp.

The Dutch Army mobilized during the late July - first days of August 1914 and mainly took up positions to defend central Netherlands - book here, look up p. 133.

Would a larger swing through the southern Netherlands around the Belgian fortifications of Liege - Namur and with the prize of investing Antwerp early on - thus no race to the Sea - even in light of logistics difficulties make a German 6 week campaign victorious?

The Dutch would be isolated in Central Netherlands - the Belgians not able to retreat west and without a race to the Sea and possible the Germans may end up not with a total French defeat but a much better situation when the front freeze following the initial weeks.

Of course "friction" will happen and Generals deciding upon the situation as they perceive it will make for unintended changes.

[michelvan]

there was reason why they removed the Maastricht "Peninsular" in Aufmarsch West plan.

one:
The Area were first Armee with there equipment had past wet area and marches of Mass valley.
This would make movement of first Armee nearly impossible.

Two:
The invasion of Netherlands would be reacted by Their Army, leading that German troops have to occupy the Netherlands totally.
Troops needed in attack of Belgium and France.
next to that Germany wanted Netherland as "neutral" trading partner in case of British boycott.

[Max Sinister]

Yeah, unless this was OK for the Dutch (I guess it wouldn't - did they have plans for that case, lordroel ?), this'd mean that the Germans would have one more opponent.

Other than that, the additional army might be decisive, because we know how close it was. Would they go west around Paris too, as originally planned?

[stevep]

Aug 13, 2024 11:54:22 GMT 575 said:

Reading a blog (go down to post Monday, July 24, 2024) I've referenced earlier Schlieffen wanted to include the Maastricht "Peninsular" in his Aufmarsch West - not stated but possibly to avoid the Belgian fortification which held up advance for some days. Molkte however removed the Netherlands from the plan of his and also moved one Army south to strengthen the Lorraine front.

As logistics demanded railway lines here be:

You may find the line running from Aachen west through the Maastricht Peninsular north of Liege however there is another line from Düsseldorf to the north of Aachen running west south of Venlo on the border and then west to Antwerp.

The Dutch Army mobilized during the late July - first days of August 1914 and mainly took up positions to defend central Netherlands - book here, look up p. 133.

Would a larger swing through the southern Netherlands around the Belgian fortifications of Liege - Namur and with the prize of investing Antwerp early on - thus no race to the Sea - even in light of logistics difficulties make a German 6 week campaign victorious?

The Dutch would be isolated in Central Netherlands - the Belgians not able to retreat west and without a race to the Sea and possible the Germans may end up not with a total French defeat but a much better situation when the front freeze following the initial weeks.

Of course "friction" will happen and Generals deciding upon the situation as they perceive it will make for unintended changes.

  Apart from the points michelvan raises there is also another issue.  The memo that Schlieffen originally posted included more troops than the entire German army had in 1914, let alone when it was 1st published so the numbers were somewhat impractical.

  However even if the Germans capture Antwerp earlier there would almost certainly be some 'race to the sea' albeit further west compared to OTL as the primary drive would still be to defeat the French rather than secure the northern flank.  There are questions about whether the plan in any form was practical as the OTL attack pretty much exhausted the German army and overrun its logistics.  As it was that was with the right 'hook' being shortened so it was intended to swing east of Paris rather than west of it which would have been logistically impossible.  Germany might gain the rest of Belgium and some more of France, including probably the Calais region as well as eventually the Netherlands as I doubt it could last inevitably.  However German losses are likely to be heavier and Germany will have additional diplomatic costs and the burden of occupying and supplying the Dutch population as well as not having that nation as a route to bypass the blockage.  Plus it would mean the Dutch forces and colonies outside Europe joining the allies.  Not to mention other neutrals might be distinctly more weary of Germany.

  It could be even worse if the allies react to the wider attack by the French canceling their A-L offensive earlier - which would safe them a lot of men given the horrendous losses suffered OTL - and possibly mean a heavier defeat in some Marne equivalent and the German forces pushed back as far or further than OTL.  Even if the front line ended up as OTL by the end of 1914 or a bit to the west it could be militarily markedly more costly than OTL for them.

  I doubt that the Dutch could hold out as supplying them would be difficult - not just militarily but also things like food and energy imports.  However a fight for a few months or even weeks could tie up a fair amount of German forces and then while they would have Dutch resources and ports again there are the occupation burden.

[575]

Aug 13, 2024 16:06:01 GMT michelvan said:

there was reason why they removed the Maastricht "Peninsular" in Aufmarsch West plan.

one:
The Area were first Armee with there equipment had past wet area and marches of Mass valley.
This would make movement of first Armee nearly impossible.

Two:
The invasion of Netherlands would be reacted by Their Army, leading that German troops have to occupy the Netherlands totally.
Troops needed in attack of Belgium and France.
next to that Germany wanted Netherland as "neutral" trading partner in case of British boycott.

Well to me the idea would be to make the broad swing behind the Belgian fortifications and south of the Dutch main force in central Netherlands.

Why would they occupy the Netherland entirely - it was a question of encircling the French in 6 weeks and thus win the war - not detaching occupation troops though this could be left to follow up troops.

Indeed Moltke wanted to keep the Netherlands outlet open but thats not the issue here.

[lordroel]

Aug 13, 2024 16:50:44 GMT Max Sinister said:

Yeah, unless this was OK for the Dutch (I guess it wouldn't - did they have plans for that case, lordroel ?), this'd mean that the Germans would have one more opponent.

Other than that, the additional army might be decisive, because we know how close it was. Would they go west around Paris too, as originally planned?

Have you read this: Snijders’ Preparations put to the Test: August 1914

[575]

Aug 13, 2024 16:50:44 GMT Max Sinister said:

Yeah, unless this was OK for the Dutch (I guess it wouldn't - did they have plans for that case, lordroel ?), this'd mean that the Germans would have one more opponent.

Other than that, the additional army might be decisive, because we know how close it was. Would they go west around Paris too, as originally planned?

From what I gleaned from the book mentioned the Dutch seemed to want to defend themselves - as stated in the book engineers (troops) had prior to the German move out of Germany already prepared bridges for demolition though a lot of disorder ruled the early days on the Dutch side.

The Dutch also lacked a lot of equipment - according to the book.

[575]

Aug 13, 2024 17:00:27 GMT stevep said:

Aug 13, 2024 11:54:22 GMT 575 said:

Reading a blog (go down to post Monday, July 24, 2024) I've referenced earlier Schlieffen wanted to include the Maastricht "Peninsular" in his Aufmarsch West - not stated but possibly to avoid the Belgian fortification which held up advance for some days. Molkte however removed the Netherlands from the plan of his and also moved one Army south to strengthen the Lorraine front.

As logistics demanded railway lines here be:

You may find the line running from Aachen west through the Maastricht Peninsular north of Liege however there is another line from Düsseldorf to the north of Aachen running west south of Venlo on the border and then west to Antwerp.

The Dutch Army mobilized during the late July - first days of August 1914 and mainly took up positions to defend central Netherlands - book here, look up p. 133.

Would a larger swing through the southern Netherlands around the Belgian fortifications of Liege - Namur and with the prize of investing Antwerp early on - thus no race to the Sea - even in light of logistics difficulties make a German 6 week campaign victorious?

The Dutch would be isolated in Central Netherlands - the Belgians not able to retreat west and without a race to the Sea and possible the Germans may end up not with a total French defeat but a much better situation when the front freeze following the initial weeks.

Of course "friction" will happen and Generals deciding upon the situation as they perceive it will make for unintended changes.

  Apart from the points michelvan raises there is also another issue.  The memo that Schlieffen originally posted included more troops than the entire German army had in 1914, let alone when it was 1st published so the numbers were somewhat impractical.

  However even if the Germans capture Antwerp earlier there would almost certainly be some 'race to the sea' albeit further west compared to OTL as the primary drive would still be to defeat the French rather than secure the northern flank.  There are questions about whether the plan in any form was practical as the OTL attack pretty much exhausted the German army and overrun its logistics.  As it was that was with the right 'hook' being shortened so it was intended to swing east of Paris rather than west of it which would have been logistically impossible.  Germany might gain the rest of Belgium and some more of France, including probably the Calais region as well as eventually the Netherlands as I doubt it could last inevitably.  However German losses are likely to be heavier and Germany will have additional diplomatic costs and the burden of occupying and supplying the Dutch population as well as not having that nation as a route to bypass the blockage.  Plus it would mean the Dutch forces and colonies outside Europe joining the allies.  Not to mention other neutrals might be distinctly more weary of Germany.

  It could be even worse if the allies react to the wider attack by the French canceling their A-L offensive earlier - which would safe them a lot of men given the horrendous losses suffered OTL - and possibly mean a heavier defeat in some Marne equivalent and the German forces pushed back as far or further than OTL.  Even if the front line ended up as OTL by the end of 1914 or a bit to the west it could be militarily markedly more costly than OTL for them.

  I doubt that the Dutch could hold out as supplying them would be difficult - not just militarily but also things like food and energy imports.  However a fight for a few months or even weeks could tie up a fair amount of German forces and then while they would have Dutch resources and ports again there are the occupation burden.

The German Minister of War was not inclined to advocate the numbers Schlieffen demanded but v. Moltke did carry out the offensive with available forces - I asking whats happening.

I don't expect the Germans to win the war in one blow as I already mentioned logistic difficulties that is bound to impede the plan not mentioning the German Army Commanders who had a will of their own. Not to mention lack of communications with frontline units of Moltke and thus having little control of the battle.

Same can be said of French commanders who had been even worse off than in 1940 when they had radio.. though didn't want to use it. Here they didn't even trust their aerial recce except Gallieni.

So probably no stopping the French offensives early I'd guess.

The race to the sea will lack at least one small force that won't be making an appearance here as the majority of the Belgian Army is still around Liege - Namur with one Infantry Division around Antwerp.

As with the Belgian troops in Centra Africa I doubt the Dutch Colonials in DEI/NEI will have much influence on the wider war. Their important contribution will be earmarking the increasing oil production for Allied use as well as rubber.

[575]

Though the Germans may have another Army adversary this is the Dutch of 4 Divisions and a lot of local defence units. And its initially in disarray though mobilized.

The Belgian Army resisted the Germans at Liege - Namur fortresses though ITTL the Germans go west of these and bypass the Belgians leaving the 6 Division in Antwerp and the other 5 and Cavalry possibly pocketed. At least no use of a weeks hammering at the fortifications when the German can bypass them. Little gain for the Allies. (Max - Ludendorff don't need to test the doors here)

[stevep]

Aug 13, 2024 17:04:02 GMT lordroel said:

Aug 13, 2024 16:50:44 GMT Max Sinister said:

Yeah, unless this was OK for the Dutch (I guess it wouldn't - did they have plans for that case, lordroel ?), this'd mean that the Germans would have one more opponent.

Other than that, the additional army might be decisive, because we know how close it was. Would they go west around Paris too, as originally planned?

Have you read this: Snijders’ Preparations put to the Test: August 1914

  Interesting.  It sounds like Snijder seems to have moved quickly from defending the Holland redoubt, behind the flooded dykes to concentrate a lot of forces in the south to seek to deter/oppose any German attack to open the Scheldt estuary but I would assume there wouldn't be time for this in the proposed scenario where Germany invades immediately alongside the invasion of Belgium.

[stevep]

Aug 13, 2024 17:21:35 GMT 575 said:

Aug 13, 2024 17:00:27 GMT stevep said:

  Apart from the points michelvan raises there is also another issue.  The memo that Schlieffen originally posted included more troops than the entire German army had in 1914, let alone when it was 1st published so the numbers were somewhat impractical.

  However even if the Germans capture Antwerp earlier there would almost certainly be some 'race to the sea' albeit further west compared to OTL as the primary drive would still be to defeat the French rather than secure the northern flank.  There are questions about whether the plan in any form was practical as the OTL attack pretty much exhausted the German army and overrun its logistics.  As it was that was with the right 'hook' being shortened so it was intended to swing east of Paris rather than west of it which would have been logistically impossible.  Germany might gain the rest of Belgium and some more of France, including probably the Calais region as well as eventually the Netherlands as I doubt it could last inevitably.  However German losses are likely to be heavier and Germany will have additional diplomatic costs and the burden of occupying and supplying the Dutch population as well as not having that nation as a route to bypass the blockage.  Plus it would mean the Dutch forces and colonies outside Europe joining the allies.  Not to mention other neutrals might be distinctly more weary of Germany.

  It could be even worse if the allies react to the wider attack by the French canceling their A-L offensive earlier - which would safe them a lot of men given the horrendous losses suffered OTL - and possibly mean a heavier defeat in some Marne equivalent and the German forces pushed back as far or further than OTL.  Even if the front line ended up as OTL by the end of 1914 or a bit to the west it could be militarily markedly more costly than OTL for them.

  I doubt that the Dutch could hold out as supplying them would be difficult - not just militarily but also things like food and energy imports.  However a fight for a few months or even weeks could tie up a fair amount of German forces and then while they would have Dutch resources and ports again there are the occupation burden.

The German Minister of War was not inclined to advocate the numbers Schlieffen demanded but v. Moltke did carry out the offensive with available forces - I asking whats happening.

I don't expect the Germans to win the war in one blow as I already mentioned logistic difficulties that is bound to impede the plan not mentioning the German Army Commanders who had a will of their own. Not to mention lack of communications with frontline units of Moltke and thus having little control of the battle.

Same can be said of French commanders who had been even worse off than in 1940 when they had radio.. though didn't want to use it. Here they didn't even trust their aerial recce except Gallieni.

So probably no stopping the French offensives early I'd guess.

The race to the sea will lack at least one small force that won't be making an appearance here as the majority of the Belgian Army is still around Liege - Namur with one Infantry Division around Antwerp.

As with the Belgian troops in Centra Africa I doubt the Dutch Colonials in DEI/NEI will have much influence on the wider war. Their important contribution will be earmarking the increasing oil production for Allied use as well as rubber.

  Ah I wasn't sure if you were suggesting Schlieffen initial plan/memo which called for the raising of much larger forces.  Thanks for clarifying.  Are you assuming the OTL force strength at the start of the war but without that additional army committed to the defence of the A-L region?  Possibly with additional railway construction to help reduce the congestion in the deployment.  Also would you consider the plan to be going east or west of Paris?

  The reason why I thought it might mean the French stop their own offensive earlier was that, as I understand it, while they expected an attack through Belgium they thought the bulk of the German invasion would come through northern A-L.  If the blow in the north is clearly heavier, with an additional army attacking the Netherlands then that might prompt them to realise the danger earlier which would prompt them to curtail their own offensive and use their interior lines to get more forces north faster.

  With the Dutch colonies I'm think less of their military forces than the economic impact of some wealthy colonies being added to the allied cause.  Including their oil production and probably also a fair chunk of the Dutch merchant as well as military navy.

  If the Germans don't occupy the rest of the Netherlands - expecting to win quickly in France and hence decide the war - how much would they need to have garrisoning the border and also the occupied part of the Netherlands?  Probably not a lot especially as the Dutch might not risk much in the way of offensive action but at least would need something.

[stevep]

Aug 13, 2024 17:40:50 GMT 575 said:

Though the Germans may have another Army adversary this is the Dutch of 4 Divisions and a lot of local defence units. And its initially in disarray though mobilized.

The Belgian Army resisted the Germans at Liege - Namur fortresses though ITTL the Germans go west of these and bypass the Belgians leaving the 6 Division in Antwerp and the other 5 and Cavalry possibly pocketed. At least no use of a weeks hammering at the fortifications when the German can bypass them. Little gain for the Allies. (Max - Ludendorff don't need to test the doors here)

  If they do pocket the forces around Liege then can they use railway or roads through S Netherlands and then N Belgium to make up the lack of transport links?  That was why the fortifications were there as it was a natural bottleneck and the Germans put so much effort into capturing them ASAP. I think Belgium successfully managed to sabotage a good chunk of their railway network which mean troops had to march and supplies moved by horse drawn transport.  Otherwise they still have to batter their way into Liege anyway.  They might get Antwerp earlier but I don't think that's really on the primary line of march for Paris.

  Two other points that come to mind.

a)  If Liege is less important then is Ludendorff elsewhere and if so does he get to gain the OTL prestige here, which could have a big impact on his future career or lack of.

b)  By attacking the Netherlands that means they don't have to close the Scheldt estuary and hence if the Germans are still delayed a bit there's a possibility of allied forces getting to and being supported in Antwerp earlier, which poses a potential threat to the northern flank of their invasion into France and also possibly linking up with the supply of a Dutch fortress position.  True not sure what could go there unless some of the BEF was diverted in short order but depending on how flexible British plans and contacts with the Dutch would be that could be an issue.  It would leave the French flank more exposed but might be seen as important enough to do it and might prompt changes in French plans in turn. - Probably not too practical in reality but not sure so asking a question.

[michelvan]

Aug 13, 2024 17:03:35 GMT 575 said:

Well to me the idea would be to make the broad swing behind the Belgian fortifications and south of the Dutch main force in central Netherlands.

Why would they occupy the Netherland entirely - it was a question of encircling the French in 6 weeks and thus win the war - not detaching occupation troops though this could be left to follow up troops.

Indeed Moltke wanted to keep the Netherlands outlet open but thats not the issue here.

i know the area the Germans wanted to march true North of Masstricht (i live near by)
in 1914 it would nearly impossible to move a German Army and there Heavy equipment true that wet land.
the Actual route the First Army took true Belgium was better

If someone invade you homeland, you sitting chair and do nothing ? hell No !
once the Germans over running the Border the Netherlands declare war on Germany and join the Entente !
and now the German Army Commando has serious problem first deal with Netherlands.
other wise BEF and French Troops arrive in Netherland harbours, to support Netherlands Army...

[575]

Aug 13, 2024 18:23:27 GMT stevep said:

Aug 13, 2024 17:21:35 GMT 575 said:

The German Minister of War was not inclined to advocate the numbers Schlieffen demanded but v. Moltke did carry out the offensive with available forces - I asking whats happening.

I don't expect the Germans to win the war in one blow as I already mentioned logistic difficulties that is bound to impede the plan not mentioning the German Army Commanders who had a will of their own. Not to mention lack of communications with frontline units of Moltke and thus having little control of the battle.

Same can be said of French commanders who had been even worse off than in 1940 when they had radio.. though didn't want to use it. Here they didn't even trust their aerial recce except Gallieni.

So probably no stopping the French offensives early I'd guess.

The race to the sea will lack at least one small force that won't be making an appearance here as the majority of the Belgian Army is still around Liege - Namur with one Infantry Division around Antwerp.

As with the Belgian troops in Centra Africa I doubt the Dutch Colonials in DEI/NEI will have much influence on the wider war. Their important contribution will be earmarking the increasing oil production for Allied use as well as rubber.

  Ah I wasn't sure if you were suggesting Schlieffen initial plan/memo which called for the raising of much larger forces.  Thanks for clarifying.  Are you assuming the OTL force strength at the start of the war but without that additional army committed to the defence of the A-L region?  Possibly with additional railway construction to help reduce the congestion in the deployment.  Also would you consider the plan to be going east or west of Paris?

  The reason why I thought it might mean the French stop their own offensive earlier was that, as I understand it, while they expected an attack through Belgium they thought the bulk of the German invasion would come through northern A-L.  If the blow in the north is clearly heavier, with an additional army attacking the Netherlands then that might prompt them to realise the danger earlier which would prompt them to curtail their own offensive and use their interior lines to get more forces north faster.

  With the Dutch colonies I'm think less of their military forces than the economic impact of some wealthy colonies being added to the allied cause.  Including their oil production and probably also a fair chunk of the Dutch merchant as well as military navy.

  If the Germans don't occupy the rest of the Netherlands - expecting to win quickly in France and hence decide the war - how much would they need to have garrisoning the border and also the occupied part of the Netherlands?  Probably not a lot especially as the Dutch might not risk much in the way of offensive action but at least would need something.

Well my idea was that Moltke don't change the basics of the Schlieffen plan thus 3. Army is still party to the great sweep round west of Paris. That would be the plan but things may well go awry as OTL.

From what I've read I'm unsure the French were so clear in mind and sight that they would send a more or less independent force north towards Lille? to get in the German flank. Actually they had quite a force up there in Picardy but that was reserve troops not thought fit for fight - which circumstances would prove different. The Germans from the outset planned for using the Reserve Korps as part of the build up though that would be the second echelon more or less.

It would be faster for Joffre to use those Reserve Corps to build a trip wire and then reinforce though such might also let the Germans get further west than OTL on the Channel coast.

Agree on the Dutch colonies - they were important and would be so to Allied war procurement.

The Netherlands had a smallish Army as outlined so would only require a couple of Reserve Corps to keep in check - I'd guess. The wet terrain is a blessing to both sides. The occupied part of Netherlands would also require some troops but I'm rather in the black on this - I know from a book on Danish drafted into the German Army that some of them were sent to keep the farms in Belgium which the men had left for the service while the women and children stayed behind. Not much on resistance! Actually some made it work quite well as long as they were out of harms way. Might go that was too in Netherland.

From what I've just read it don't seem the Dutch was much prepared for taking the offensive. Also the Government according the Lordroel's link was quite scared of repercussions as said general went his own ways!

[575]

Aug 13, 2024 18:39:15 GMT stevep said:

Aug 13, 2024 17:40:50 GMT 575 said:

Though the Germans may have another Army adversary this is the Dutch of 4 Divisions and a lot of local defence units. And its initially in disarray though mobilized.

The Belgian Army resisted the Germans at Liege - Namur fortresses though ITTL the Germans go west of these and bypass the Belgians leaving the 6 Division in Antwerp and the other 5 and Cavalry possibly pocketed. At least no use of a weeks hammering at the fortifications when the German can bypass them. Little gain for the Allies. (Max - Ludendorff don't need to test the doors here)

  If they do pocket the forces around Liege then can they use railway or roads through S Netherlands and then N Belgium to make up the lack of transport links?  That was why the fortifications were there as it was a natural bottleneck and the Germans put so much effort into capturing them ASAP. I think Belgium successfully managed to sabotage a good chunk of their railway network which mean troops had to march and supplies moved by horse drawn transport.  Otherwise they still have to batter their way into Liege anyway.  They might get Antwerp earlier but I don't think that's really on the primary line of march for Paris.

  Two other points that come to mind.

a)  If Liege is less important then is Ludendorff elsewhere and if so does he get to gain the OTL prestige here, which could have a big impact on his future career or lack of.

b)  By attacking the Netherlands that means they don't have to close the Scheldt estuary and hence if the Germans are still delayed a bit there's a possibility of allied forces getting to and being supported in Antwerp earlier, which poses a potential threat to the northern flank of their invasion into France and also possibly linking up with the supply of a Dutch fortress position.  True not sure what could go there unless some of the BEF was diverted in short order but depending on how flexible British plans and contacts with the Dutch would be that could be an issue.  It would leave the French flank more exposed but might be seen as important enough to do it and might prompt changes in French plans in turn. - Probably not too practical in reality but not sure so asking a question.

The map of raiways in OP show the possibilities though the Dutch had prepared demolitions so this may well delay the Germans. From WWII occupation it is known that repairs of such wasn't a big deal if you had dedicated personnel and equipment for it. Guess the Germans being Germans would have such ready though the effect would be there.

Antwerp I just pointed to because it was an important port for Belgium and a fortified place and the Belgians DID defend the place when retreating from Liege before going on to the borderlands with France.

It might just not get the importance it did.

a) Definately - he might just end up a Corps or Army commander among a lot others.

b) Churchill you know did send the Royal Marine Division to Antwerp to aid the Belgian defences - read of it years back. Here there just mightn't be anybody to aid and in worse case the RMD is lost..

Are you sure the British would walk into a dead end.. well Gallipoli, Irak..

I think the Netherlands would be viewed as a dead end except by the First Sea Lord.. It would be tempting but would trigger a solid German response and I guess the French wouldn't like such diversion.

This is all just a result of my just having read on the subject and wanting to hear You lot - not TL stuff.