Weimar Republic ISOT 9 November 1923 to 9 November 1823

[575]

All of the territories of the Republic are ISOT at the time the Army/Police at Odeonsplatz fires at the Nazi mob marching led by Hitler and Ludendorff.
In order to effect its experiment the Alien Space Bat engineering the ISOT have every Nazi hit by the fire being sorted off the ISOT and remain in situ – the rest is moved along the rest of Weimar Republic 100 years back in time to 9 November 1823.

Situation in Weimar Republic:
Hyper inflation – German economy in ruins

Ruhr area and Rhineland no longer occupied; the Reichswehr Army is contacted by peoples from Ruhr telling that the Franzosen have vanished.

Weimar freed of Versailles clauses among these reparations payments to France and limits on Armed Forces.

Reichswehr Army: 7 Infantry Divisions, 1 Cavalry Division – reserves: former Freikorps

Automobile manufacturers – Tank production about to be reliazed (design initiated 1925 OTL – here earlier) Grosstractor with 75mm gun in rotating turret

The Reichsmarine is the most powerfull Navy in the world:
7x 28cm Pre-Dreadnought Battleships Deutschland/Braunschweig class
1x 24cm Pre-Dreadnought Battleship Zähringen disarmed and hulked
8x Cruisers Bremen/Gazelle class
1x Emden Cruiser laid down 1921 and building – plans for Königsberg and Leipzig class in the works as is projects of new Panzerschiffe/Armoured ships (Deutschland class cruisers) though all these are on hold due to the economic crisis and worked on according the Versailles and Naval Treaties stipulations; things are going to change!
12x Torpedoboats – new boats on the drawingboard to be laid down by 1925

Development areas and industries abroad – Soviet Union, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands Schwitzerland and Italy lost

Aircraft industries in Germany – flying types including

Junkers F 13 – wheel/float plane, 2 pass. (used as bombers in the Bolivia-Paraguay Chaco War 1932-35)
Junkers G 23 – 3 engine airliner, 10 pass.
Heinkel He 1-3 – 2-3 seat wheel/float planes
Dornier Do A – small flying boats
Focke-Wulff – just founded

Germany is lacking oil.

Friedrich Ebert Reichpräsident of Weimar Republic.

Gustav Stresemann Chancellor of Weimar Republic and Min. of Foreign Affairs.

1823 Saar have effectively returned to Germany as have the Prussian 1823 lands of Poland with the Corridor, Danzig and Memel Land.

Austria is very surprised at her loss of hegemony in Germany though still retain such in Luxembourg – this will be the immediate political problem facing Weimar Republic.
If the Austrians try enforce their supremacy in the German Confederation and I'd expect Metternich to so just so for fear of Austrian Empire breaking up in a bout of nationalism like what have been seen in the Med area – Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece since 1820.
With modern weaponry and aerial recconaisance as well as Great War experience the Austrians are little trouble to Weimar Germany.
But how do things play out politically post Austrian defeat? How will Ebert and Stresemann react in this new European and World political situation they have landed within?
I'd expect the post Great War/Versailles German return to previous territories fulfilled might to a large part depend upon those 1823 regimes. Though how about Alsace-Lorraine?

Outside the Great Powers the King of Denmark is surprised at the loss of south Schleswig and Holstein; thinking about the problems involving Holstein according to 1815 Vienna accord demand of an estates assembly that would spread to his other lands that isn't that much of a problem though south Schleswig is – to the King Frederik 6.

However seening the Weimar Germans handling the Austrians in a short matter will certainly have a major effect on Frederik 6.

(to those wondering about the sub-header - Karl Marx born 1818 is overwritten by circumstances!)

[stevep]

   Well a lot depends on who wins out in Germany.  The liberal reformists or the revanchists.  If the former then things could be fairly good, although it would be a hell of a shock to the rest of Europe [and the world] and especially Austria.  If the latter its going to be a very nasty one for most of Europe as their unlikely to stop at Alsace-Lorraine.

  The social policies of the liberal Weimar Germany will shock all of Europe, with things like widespread education, a franchise that includes not only all adult males but also women, social spending on many projects including housing, pensions and the like.  That would also cause turmoil in much of Europe, especially since the aftermath of the French revolution much of the establishment is very conservative.

[575]

Aug 18, 2024 10:01:52 GMT stevep said:

   Well a lot depends on who wins out in Germany.  The liberal reformists or the revanchists.  If the former then things could be fairly good, although it would be a hell of a shock to the rest of Europe [and the world] and especially Austria.  If the latter its going to be a very nasty one for most of Europe as their unlikely to stop at Alsace-Lorraine.

  The social policies of the liberal Weimar Germany will shock all of Europe, with things like widespread education, a franchise that includes not only all adult males but also women, social spending on many projects including housing, pensions and the like.  That would also cause turmoil in much of Europe, especially since the aftermath of the French revolution much of the establishment is very conservative.

I'd expect Government to win out in Germany as the Nazi's have been decapitated in infancy. There's of course the Communist Party to reckon with though the Socialdemocratic Party had a strong hand in forcing Germany through, in cooperation with Army and Freikorps, the widespread unrest and revolutionary attempts following the Armistige 1918 so I don't expect them to be any less here. First on Eberts agenda German consolidation.

[stevep]

Aug 18, 2024 10:09:02 GMT 575 said:

Aug 18, 2024 10:01:52 GMT stevep said:

   Well a lot depends on who wins out in Germany.  The liberal reformists or the revanchists.  If the former then things could be fairly good, although it would be a hell of a shock to the rest of Europe [and the world] and especially Austria.  If the latter its going to be a very nasty one for most of Europe as their unlikely to stop at Alsace-Lorraine.

  The social policies of the liberal Weimar Germany will shock all of Europe, with things like widespread education, a franchise that includes not only all adult males but also women, social spending on many projects including housing, pensions and the like.  That would also cause turmoil in much of Europe, especially since the aftermath of the French revolution much of the establishment is very conservative.

I'd expect Government to win out in Germany as the Nazi's have been decapitated in infancy. There's of course the Communist Party to reckon with though the Socialdemocratic Party had a strong hand in forcing Germany through, in cooperation with Army and Freikorps, the widespread unrest and revolutionary attempts following the Armistige 1918 so I don't expect them to be any less here. First on Eberts agenda German consolidation.

  The Nazis have but their still a relatively small group and there are a lot of other right wing groups or even more moderate ones who with the sudden and massive power imbalance might want 'revenge' for their defeat and a new glorious German expansion.  I'm not expecting a sudden couple by hard liners or even going to war although if the ancient regimes, most likely in France or Austria do something stupid it could quickly spiral into conflict with the militants arguing that "we must defend ourselves" which could morph into a fair level of expansion to "secure peace and bring civilization..."

  I would hope this wouldn't happen but its far from impossible unfortunately.

[raharris1973]

Weimar Germany can dictate/achieve restoration of lost 2nd Reich territories with ease. It automatically can restore the 1815-1918 Russo-Prussian, Russo-German border, simply by inheriting Prussia's eastern lands automatically through their habitual obedience to Berlin and the lack of existence of a Poland.

It can assert sovereignty over Schleswig and Holstein and overpower the objections of the downtime Danes, and anyone choosing to be their allies in 1823....not too many people, with some remembering their weakness/subservience toward Napoleon.

They can compel France to hand-over Alsace-Lorraine, and Netherlands to had over Luxembourg, without anyone able to effectively resist, and in the case of Luxembourg, probably just get the downtime Prussian garrison to obey them.

They can easily sweep aside Austrian formations that try to contest their actions in Germany outside of Austrian imperial lands like toy soldiers.

And, after doing all this, Germany does not have much to be angry about in international affairs. It does not owe anybody reparations. Its economy isn't great but its world context is different. It does not have other economies to be jealous of. Everyone else is poor and backward. Emigration offers no relief.

The divisive issues in Germany will no longer be foreign policy ones but internal social questions and pragmatic debates about questions of methods of survival and coping in this world.


-------

Mitridates the Great:

Some additional comments from other folks elsewhere interesting to note:
And even if the inevitable British whisperer tries to organize an anti-German coalition anyway, that will most likely be treated as an annoying distraction rather than a major problem. After all, it is much more important and immediate to address the needs of German workers, and they surely will be very loud about this demand.

The military will be able to say that, since the Treaty of Versailles does not exist, they can rearm as much as they want: in practice it will probably be a limited rearmament, both because of the different geopolitical objectives (there are no plans for large wars of conquest that require large amounts of soldiers) and the lack of perceived need (major rearmament doesn't seem necessary when all rival armies are little more than musket-wielding rabble compared to yours) and budgetary issues (there will be many places where investment is needed to develop civilian industry and elevate "old Germany"... and each mark destined for the army is a mark that is not invested in that, which is much more important because 1 and 2.).

German trade will flood Europe with goods far superior to those produced in the rest of the world, which makes going to war against these people sound like a bad idea.

The old Mitteleuropa plans are probably resurrected, and beyond that the butterflies 🦋 begin to flutter.

JanWellem:
The reactionary forces in Europe, chief among them the remaining members of the Holy Alliance, the Empires of Austria and Russia, as well as the Tories in the UK, will be in absolute panic mode, once again the spectre of radical republicanism, and make no mistake, for 1820s conservatives, let alone reactionaries even a moderately progressive country like Weimar Germany with a one man, and, oh, the horrors, one woman, one vote franchise, would be considered insanely radical, keep in mind that the infamous Peterloo Massacre happened just 4 years earlier, is haunting Europe, this time accompanied and exacerbated by the spectres of socialism and communism. and, worst off all, there'd be absolutely nothing they could do about it. Industrial magnates, horrified that their workers might start demanding what German workers enjoy - 8 (instead of up 16) hour working days, holiday entitlements, social insurance, freedom of association and the rights of collective bargaining and co-determination - would be banging on Lord Liverpool's door in 10 Downing Street and demand from him to institute legislation that prevents this from ever happening in the UK.

[stevep]

Aug 21, 2024 17:10:30 GMT raharris1973 said:

Weimar Germany can dictate/achieve restoration of lost 2nd Reich territories with ease. It automatically can restore the 1815-1918 Russo-Prussian, Russo-German border, simply by inheriting Prussia's eastern lands automatically through their habitual obedience to Berlin and the lack of existence of a Poland.

It can assert sovereignty over Schleswig and Holstein and overpower the objections of the downtime Danes, and anyone choosing to be their allies in 1823....not too many people, with some remembering their weakness/subservience toward Napoleon.

They can compel France to hand-over Alsace-Lorraine, and Netherlands to had over Luxembourg, without anyone able to effectively resist, and in the case of Luxembourg, probably just get the downtime Prussian garrison to obey them.

They can easily sweep aside Austrian formations that try to contest their actions in Germany outside of Austrian imperial lands like toy soldiers.

And, after doing all this, Germany does not have much to be angry about in international affairs. It does not owe anybody reparations. Its economy isn't great but its world context is different. It does not have other economies to be jealous of. Everyone else is poor and backward. Emigration offers no relief.

The divisive issues in Germany will no longer be foreign policy ones but internal social questions and pragmatic debates about questions of methods of survival and coping in this world.


-------

Mitridates the Great:

Some additional comments from other folks elsewhere interesting to note:
And even if the inevitable British whisperer tries to organize an anti-German coalition anyway, that will most likely be treated as an annoying distraction rather than a major problem. After all, it is much more important and immediate to address the needs of German workers, and they surely will be very loud about this demand.

The military will be able to say that, since the Treaty of Versailles does not exist, they can rearm as much as they want: in practice it will probably be a limited rearmament, both because of the different geopolitical objectives (there are no plans for large wars of conquest that require large amounts of soldiers) and the lack of perceived need (major rearmament doesn't seem necessary when all rival armies are little more than musket-wielding rabble compared to yours) and budgetary issues (there will be many places where investment is needed to develop civilian industry and elevate "old Germany"... and each mark destined for the army is a mark that is not invested in that, which is much more important because 1 and 2.).

German trade will flood Europe with goods far superior to those produced in the rest of the world, which makes going to war against these people sound like a bad idea.

The old Mitteleuropa plans are probably resurrected, and beyond that the butterflies 🦋 begin to flutter.

JanWellem:
The reactionary forces in Europe, chief among them the remaining members of the Holy Alliance, the Empires of Austria and Russia, as well as the Tories in the UK, will be in absolute panic mode, once again the spectre of radical republicanism, and make no mistake, for 1820s conservatives, let alone reactionaries even a moderately progressive country like Weimar Germany with a one man, and, oh, the horrors, one woman, one vote franchise, would be considered insanely radical, keep in mind that the infamous Peterloo Massacre happened just 4 years earlier, is haunting Europe, this time accompanied and exacerbated by the spectres of socialism and communism. and, worst off all, there'd be absolutely nothing they could do about it. Industrial magnates, horrified that their workers might start demanding what German workers enjoy - 8 (instead of up 16) hour working days, holiday entitlements, social insurance, freedom of association and the rights of collective bargaining and co-determination - would be banging on Lord Liverpool's door in 10 Downing Street and demand from him to institute legislation that prevents this from ever happening in the UK.

  That is the logical view for Wiemar Germany but too often people aren't logical.  Although one restraining factor might be that too many non-Wiemar regions taken under their control would mean a lot of people to lift up to 1923 standards.

  If Germany doesn't go off the deep end JanWellem raises some good points about how horrifying Wiemar Germany will be to the bulk of the establishment and also many more conservative socially other elements at all levels.  Both socially and also in many other ideas.  For instance a young Mr Darwin will be amazed at the importance of his books while most of his contemporaries will be bitterly opposed to the ideas presented.  You will probably see some idiots trying something stupid and getting hammered doing it which will further increase tensions.  There were reforming elements in at least some European societies and you are likely to see a lot of pressure for at least some reforms to catch up with Germany economically and technologically.  Going to be a lot of turmoil.

[575]

Aug 21, 2024 22:00:36 GMT stevep said:

Aug 21, 2024 17:10:30 GMT raharris1973 said:

Weimar Germany can dictate/achieve restoration of lost 2nd Reich territories with ease. It automatically can restore the 1815-1918 Russo-Prussian, Russo-German border, simply by inheriting Prussia's eastern lands automatically through their habitual obedience to Berlin and the lack of existence of a Poland.

It can assert sovereignty over Schleswig and Holstein and overpower the objections of the downtime Danes, and anyone choosing to be their allies in 1823....not too many people, with some remembering their weakness/subservience toward Napoleon.

They can compel France to hand-over Alsace-Lorraine, and Netherlands to had over Luxembourg, without anyone able to effectively resist, and in the case of Luxembourg, probably just get the downtime Prussian garrison to obey them.

They can easily sweep aside Austrian formations that try to contest their actions in Germany outside of Austrian imperial lands like toy soldiers.

And, after doing all this, Germany does not have much to be angry about in international affairs. It does not owe anybody reparations. Its economy isn't great but its world context is different. It does not have other economies to be jealous of. Everyone else is poor and backward. Emigration offers no relief.

The divisive issues in Germany will no longer be foreign policy ones but internal social questions and pragmatic debates about questions of methods of survival and coping in this world.


-------

  That is the logical view for Wiemar Germany but too often people aren't logical.  Although one restraining factor might be that too many non-Wiemar regions taken under their control would mean a lot of people to lift up to 1923 standards.

  If Germany doesn't go off the deep end JanWellem raises some good points about how horrifying Wiemar Germany will be to the bulk of the establishment and also many more conservative socially other elements at all levels.  Both socially and also in many other ideas.  For instance a young Mr Darwin will be amazed at the importance of his books while most of his contemporaries will be bitterly opposed to the ideas presented.  You will probably see some idiots trying something stupid and getting hammered doing it which will further increase tensions.  There were reforming elements in at least some European societies and you are likely to see a lot of pressure for at least some reforms to catch up with Germany economically and technologically.  Going to be a lot of turmoil.

As in my OP I referred to Metternich of Austria regarding that country's leading role in the German Confederation and his fears of revolution but also the Great Powers. Those Great Powers in OTL tried to suppress democracy and societal change as such and had in some way obligataged themselves at Vienna 1815 to do so. No absolute European ruler nor even the King of England would like to see their power limited.

Their problem would be enhanced should Austria try enforce its supremacy over the "German Confederation" with a huge defeat suffered to Weimar troops which could mean the transfer of Bohemia/Moravia to Weimar Republic.

The thing is would Weimar be able to stabilize including integrating Saar and eastern Prussian lands and get its democracy running before the 1815 Great Powers have rearmed? The steam engine is developing in 1823 though the screw-powered steamship isn't around the concept is known and practical use just around the corner as will be iron/steel use for hull's.

Breachloader artillery is another matter but breachloader rifles is also worked on - needle guns.

Oil production will be the major headache as the nearest source is in Austrian Galizia (which could be a demand following Austrian defeat) and next in Wallachia which is an Ottoman Vassal which could be tempted into Weimar orbit following defeat of Austria but its a long way to it as it doesn't have access to the Black Sea at the time. USA might trade with the new European Republic but Weimar needs to develop the oil sources in its vicinity if it is to get the use it demand.

1823 map

[stevep]

Aug 22, 2024 8:44:48 GMT 575 said:

Aug 21, 2024 22:00:36 GMT stevep said:

  That is the logical view for Wiemar Germany but too often people aren't logical.  Although one restraining factor might be that too many non-Wiemar regions taken under their control would mean a lot of people to lift up to 1923 standards.

  If Germany doesn't go off the deep end JanWellem raises some good points about how horrifying Wiemar Germany will be to the bulk of the establishment and also many more conservative socially other elements at all levels.  Both socially and also in many other ideas.  For instance a young Mr Darwin will be amazed at the importance of his books while most of his contemporaries will be bitterly opposed to the ideas presented.  You will probably see some idiots trying something stupid and getting hammered doing it which will further increase tensions.  There were reforming elements in at least some European societies and you are likely to see a lot of pressure for at least some reforms to catch up with Germany economically and technologically.  Going to be a lot of turmoil.

As in my OP I referred to Metternich of Austria regarding that country's leading role in the German Confederation and his fears of revolution but also the Great Powers. Those Great Powers in OTL tried to suppress democracy and societal change as such and had in some way obligataged themselves at Vienna 1815 to do so. No absolute European ruler nor even the King of England would like to see their power limited.

Their problem would be enhanced should Austria try enforce its supremacy over the "German Confederation" with a huge defeat suffered to Weimar troops which could mean the transfer of Bohemia/Moravia to Weimar Republic.

The thing is would Weimar be able to stabilize including integrating Saar and eastern Prussian lands and get its democracy running before the 1815 Great Powers have rearmed? The steam engine is developing in 1823 though the screw-powered steamship isn't around the concept is known and practical use just around the corner as will be iron/steel use for hull's.

Breachloader artillery is another matter but breachloader rifles is also worked on - needle guns.

Oil production will be the major headache as the nearest source is in Austrian Galizia (which could be a demand following Austrian defeat) and next in Wallachia which is an Ottoman Vassal which could be tempted into Weimar orbit following defeat of Austria but its a long way to it as it doesn't have access to the Black Sea at the time. USA might trade with the new European Republic but Weimar needs to develop the oil sources in its vicinity if it is to get the use it demand.

1823 map

  Definitely agree that Wiemar is likely to have problems with Metternich and probably most other powers but even the small Weimar official army, let alone the veterans they can call upon will slaughter the 1823 forces.  They might have more issues integrating the Prussian lands to the east, although I think that the more conservative areas were in E Prussia which has come along anyway.

 so it would be more the Polish Corridor which would be from 1823.

  Would it be in Wiemar's advantage to Bohemia to Germany as that would mean integrating the Czechs?  Might it be better establishing it as an independent state under German protection?

  I think Wiemar Germany has a massive advantage for at least a generation.  Both because of the existing industrial establishment and also their cultural advantages with a well educated population, a strong scientific structure, better health care and the like.  Even say Britain or the US would take a long time to really start catching up.  By their nature the more reactionary nations have a massive penalty simply because they don't trust the bulk of their population with the knowledge and abilities that would be needed for their countries to catch up.

  Oil would be a problem but a lot of Wiemar Germany can manage without it, at least in the short term.  They could also use their knowledge in the medium term, say aiding Mexico in assuring its independence in return for access to oil from their Tejas/Texas province.  They would still have a massive edge over everybody else with coal/steam based technology and equipment.  Also things like smokeless munitions and the sheer range, destructive power and accuracy of WWI artillery would make any down-time attack a massacre.  - I know technically Germany has no artillery because of the Versailles treaty but I bet there's a few about and the knowledge and technology to produce more quickly.

  There's quite a lot going on in 1823 and some of the unrest might aid the newcomers as they could find allies or other nations could be distracted by events.  For instance would royal France see the greatest importance being the OTL intervention in Spain or the 'threat' from Wiemar Germany.

  The other big issue is what impact up-time knowledge will have on the 1823 world.  For example while the end of slavery in most European colonies won't be much of a surprise the USCW will be a shock to all elements in the US and how will its leaders and people respond?  The reports of WWI and the collapse of so many empires.  The unification of both Germany and Italy prior to this and the spread of western colonization to many areas, especially in Africa and parts of Asia/Pacific where it had rarely been seen before.  Coupled with all the social changes in the western world and the drastic changes that were occurring in places like Russia and China in 1923.  A lot of this will come generally from books and other sources while a lot of non-German up-timers are going to have some awkward decisions to make.  Do they stay in Germany, where they have a modern lifestyle their used to or go 'home' to a country which even if it exists - Italy for instance or many of the Balkan states don't as well as many outside Europe - they would have both a drastic collapse in living conditions and also may be less than welcome to the places they 'return' to.  Not to mention that they have lost any property, businesses and the like they might have had in their 1923 world.

[raharris1973]

If there is enough political support in Germany for revanchist, revisionist goals, and a combination of resentment and hurt pride against France, plus hubris based on knowledge about the technology gap, could make Germany simply decide it would like to take Alsace-Lorraine back, driving on in with APC and and machine-guns to claim it without Bourbon France having any effective reply.

If the German political parties, left, right and center, collectively acquiesce to even broader expansionist aims than simply restoring Germany's 1914 position, or colonizing "ungoverned" or lightly governed spaces, perhaps more from a calculation, by all, that the anger or displeasure of any of the weak foreign peoples of the downtime world is pretty trivial non-issue compared to raising domestic tensions and rancor with domestic rightists, revisionists, or revanchists by *refusing* and external expansionist or *strong* foreign policy, Germany could go many different ways.

For those responding to the Hitler-ish, Nazi-ish, Ludendorff-ian, Volk-isch segments of the right expanding to the east at the expanse of the vast but weak and primitive .....and also reviled on the German left......Russian Empire could beckon, to build up a strong German continental imperium.

But for others, the perpetual feud with France, which took back Alsace-Lorraine and occupied the Rhineland postwar, and went further to occupy the Ruhr from Jan 1923 until the November 1924 ISOT might loom largest. So, they might argue for more fully crushing, occupying, and dismantling France and Belgium once and for all.

And Alfred Tirpitz, believe it or not, was still a viable and popular political figure in German rightist circles through late 1923. Consistent with his navalist roots, and despite Weimar Germany exploiting Anglo-French divisions in the 1923 Ruhr Crisis, he might take a preemptive security approach, that treats Britain as enemy number one and uses Weimar Germany's time-travel enabled naval and industrial technological supremacy, to crush Pax Brittanica in its crib, and never give it a chance to compete or catch up. The argument for this isn't crazy. Aircraft technology, automatic weapons, motor vehicles, radio, industrial manufacturing, fossil fuel powered steel ships with heavy artillery - even with only modest numbers of these readily available, Germany's monopoly on these and the manufacture of them makes Britain invadeable and its Army defeatable, and the country occupiable. It being an oligarchic, pre-Reform bills era in Britain, gives Germany as an occupier an opportunity to break the nations of the British Isles apart from each other and find collaborators along class and ethnic lines, and hobble Britain's industrial and imperial and diplomatic development, while Weimar Germany centers European and global diplomacy and trade around itself. The Germans can support various decentralizing movements working against nascent imperial cohesion like Irish Catholics, Scots independentists, Luddite workers in manufacturing, "Swinger" workers in agriculture, and Welsh speakers.

Aug 22, 2024 8:44:48 GMT 575 said:

No absolute European ruler nor even the King of England would like to see their power limited.

Good luck having the ever-liked and respected King William IV getting Parliament pay to fund an Army to mount an expedition for an ideological crusade against a German social democracy.

Or even to recover his other, time-subsumed Kingdom of Hanover....They don't even *like* having the personal union with Hanover....

Yeah, good luck to King George IV convincing Parliament to fund an Army and Navy expedition, to redeem the King's, not the United Kingdom of Britain and Ireland's, personal property and domain, even before Parliament dispatches observers to size up the new Germany and reports back regarding ironclad ships, machineguns, and aircraft. "Thanks but no thanks."

Aug 22, 2024 8:44:48 GMT 575 said:

Their problem would be enhanced should Austria try enforce its supremacy over the "German Confederation" with a huge defeat suffered to Weimar troops which could mean the transfer of Bohemia/Moravia to Weimar Republic.

The Austrians may have the smarts to suck it up immediately without any fight at all, or after only a *very* short, perfunctory fight, illustrating the WR's absolute armed superiority clearly. If the Austrians, either with or or without a fight with the Weimar-ians can get to a point where they can start a cordial parley with them, rather than getting the Weimarians embittered, unforgiving, and in a mood to pick the empire apart, can be told on the one hand, "sorry Charlie, you're not top dog in any other part of Germany anymore" but given the consolation prize of Berlin telling them, "but, we support your unitary control of your direct imperial domain, your mastery over Italy, and any agenda you have, little or big, over the Balkans."

Aug 22, 2024 8:44:48 GMT 575 said:

The thing is would Weimar be able to stabilize including integrating Saar and eastern Prussian lands and get its democracy running before the 1815 Great Powers have rearmed?

You're kidding with this question, right? It's not even a question. No matter who is politically in charge or what political issues are up in the air, armed Weimar men with 1923 weapons will be rebelling and crushing any 1823 attackers.

[575]

Sept 6, 2024 1:03:09 GMT raharris1973 said:

If there is enough political support in Germany for revanchist, revisionist goals, and a combination of resentment and hurt pride against France, plus hubris based on knowledge about the technology gap, could make Germany simply decide it would like to take Alsace-Lorraine back, driving on in with APC and and machine-guns to claim it without Bourbon France having any effective reply.

If the German political parties, left, right and center, collectively acquiesce to even broader expansionist aims than simply restoring Germany's 1914 position, or colonizing "ungoverned" or lightly governed spaces, perhaps more from a calculation, by all, that the anger or displeasure of any of the weak foreign peoples of the downtime world is pretty trivial non-issue compared to raising domestic tensions and rancor with domestic rightists, revisionists, or revanchists by *refusing* and external expansionist or *strong* foreign policy, Germany could go many different ways.

For those responding to the Hitler-ish, Nazi-ish, Ludendorff-ian, Volk-isch segments of the right expanding to the east at the expanse of the vast but weak and primitive .....and also reviled on the German left......Russian Empire could beckon, to build up a strong German continental imperium.

But for others, the perpetual feud with France, which took back Alsace-Lorraine and occupied the Rhineland postwar, and went further to occupy the Ruhr from Jan 1923 until the November 1924 ISOT might loom largest. So, they might argue for more fully crushing, occupying, and dismantling France and Belgium once and for all.

And Alfred Tirpitz, believe it or not, was still a viable and popular political figure in German rightist circles through late 1923. Consistent with his navalist roots, and despite Weimar Germany exploiting Anglo-French divisions in the 1923 Ruhr Crisis, he might take a preemptive security approach, that treats Britain as enemy number one and uses Weimar Germany's time-travel enabled naval and industrial technological supremacy, to crush Pax Brittanica in its crib, and never give it a chance to compete or catch up. The argument for this isn't crazy. Aircraft technology, automatic weapons, motor vehicles, radio, industrial manufacturing, fossil fuel powered steel ships with heavy artillery - even with only modest numbers of these readily available, Germany's monopoly on these and the manufacture of them makes Britain invadeable and its Army defeatable, and the country occupiable. It being an oligarchic, pre-Reform bills era in Britain, gives Germany as an occupier an opportunity to break the nations of the British Isles apart from each other and find collaborators along class and ethnic lines, and hobble Britain's industrial and imperial and diplomatic development, while Weimar Germany centers European and global diplomacy and trade around itself. The Germans can support various decentralizing movements working against nascent imperial cohesion like Irish Catholics, Scots independentists, Luddite workers in manufacturing, "Swinger" workers in agriculture, and Welsh speakers.

Aug 22, 2024 8:44:48 GMT 575 said:

No absolute European ruler nor even the King of England would like to see their power limited.

Good luck having the ever-liked and respected King William IV getting Parliament pay to fund an Army to mount an expedition for an ideological crusade against a German social democracy.

Or even to recover his other, time-subsumed Kingdom of Hanover....They don't even *like* having the personal union with Hanover....

Yeah, good luck to King George IV convincing Parliament to fund an Army and Navy expedition, to redeem the King's, not the United Kingdom of Britain and Ireland's, personal property and domain, even before Parliament dispatches observers to size up the new Germany and reports back regarding ironclad ships, machineguns, and aircraft. "Thanks but no thanks."

Aug 22, 2024 8:44:48 GMT 575 said:

Their problem would be enhanced should Austria try enforce its supremacy over the "German Confederation" with a huge defeat suffered to Weimar troops which could mean the transfer of Bohemia/Moravia to Weimar Republic.

The Austrians may have the smarts to suck it up immediately without any fight at all, or after only a *very* short, perfunctory fight, illustrating the WR's absolute armed superiority clearly. If the Austrians, either with or or without a fight with the Weimar-ians can get to a point where they can start a cordial parley with them, rather than getting the Weimarians embittered, unforgiving, and in a mood to pick the empire apart, can be told on the one hand, "sorry Charlie, you're not top dog in any other part of Germany anymore" but given the consolation prize of Berlin telling them, "but, we support your unitary control of your direct imperial domain, your mastery over Italy, and any agenda you have, little or big, over the Balkans."

Aug 22, 2024 8:44:48 GMT 575 said:

The thing is would Weimar be able to stabilize including integrating Saar and eastern Prussian lands and get its democracy running before the 1815 Great Powers have rearmed?

You're kidding with this question, right? It's not even a question. No matter who is politically in charge or what political issues are up in the air, armed Weimar men with 1923 weapons will be rebelling and crushing any 1823 attackers.

No - and its an invitation for debate not just flat rejection.

[raharris1973]

Sept 6, 2024 10:49:20 GMT 575 said:

Sept 6, 2024 1:03:09 GMT raharris1973 said:

If there is enough political support in Germany for revanchist, revisionist goals, and a combination of resentment and hurt pride against France, plus hubris based on knowledge about the technology gap, could make Germany simply decide it would like to take Alsace-Lorraine back, driving on in with APC and and machine-guns to claim it without Bourbon France having any effective reply.

If the German political parties, left, right and center, collectively acquiesce to even broader expansionist aims than simply restoring Germany's 1914 position, or colonizing "ungoverned" or lightly governed spaces, perhaps more from a calculation, by all, that the anger or displeasure of any of the weak foreign peoples of the downtime world is pretty trivial non-issue compared to raising domestic tensions and rancor with domestic rightists, revisionists, or revanchists by *refusing* and external expansionist or *strong* foreign policy, Germany could go many different ways.

For those responding to the Hitler-ish, Nazi-ish, Ludendorff-ian, Volk-isch segments of the right expanding to the east at the expanse of the vast but weak and primitive .....and also reviled on the German left......Russian Empire could beckon, to build up a strong German continental imperium.

But for others, the perpetual feud with France, which took back Alsace-Lorraine and occupied the Rhineland postwar, and went further to occupy the Ruhr from Jan 1923 until the November 1924 ISOT might loom largest. So, they might argue for more fully crushing, occupying, and dismantling France and Belgium once and for all.

And Alfred Tirpitz, believe it or not, was still a viable and popular political figure in German rightist circles through late 1923. Consistent with his navalist roots, and despite Weimar Germany exploiting Anglo-French divisions in the 1923 Ruhr Crisis, he might take a preemptive security approach, that treats Britain as enemy number one and uses Weimar Germany's time-travel enabled naval and industrial technological supremacy, to crush Pax Brittanica in its crib, and never give it a chance to compete or catch up. The argument for this isn't crazy. Aircraft technology, automatic weapons, motor vehicles, radio, industrial manufacturing, fossil fuel powered steel ships with heavy artillery - even with only modest numbers of these readily available, Germany's monopoly on these and the manufacture of them makes Britain invadeable and its Army defeatable, and the country occupiable. It being an oligarchic, pre-Reform bills era in Britain, gives Germany as an occupier an opportunity to break the nations of the British Isles apart from each other and find collaborators along class and ethnic lines, and hobble Britain's industrial and imperial and diplomatic development, while Weimar Germany centers European and global diplomacy and trade around itself. The Germans can support various decentralizing movements working against nascent imperial cohesion like Irish Catholics, Scots independentists, Luddite workers in manufacturing, "Swinger" workers in agriculture, and Welsh speakers.



Good luck having the ever-liked and respected King William IV getting Parliament pay to fund an Army to mount an expedition for an ideological crusade against a German social democracy.

Or even to recover his other, time-subsumed Kingdom of Hanover....They don't even *like* having the personal union with Hanover....

Yeah, good luck to King George IV convincing Parliament to fund an Army and Navy expedition, to redeem the King's, not the United Kingdom of Britain and Ireland's, personal property and domain, even before Parliament dispatches observers to size up the new Germany and reports back regarding ironclad ships, machineguns, and aircraft. "Thanks but no thanks."


The Austrians may have the smarts to suck it up immediately without any fight at all, or after only a *very* short, perfunctory fight, illustrating the WR's absolute armed superiority clearly. If the Austrians, either with or or without a fight with the Weimar-ians can get to a point where they can start a cordial parley with them, rather than getting the Weimarians embittered, unforgiving, and in a mood to pick the empire apart, can be told on the one hand, "sorry Charlie, you're not top dog in any other part of Germany anymore" but given the consolation prize of Berlin telling them, "but, we support your unitary control of your direct imperial domain, your mastery over Italy, and any agenda you have, little or big, over the Balkans."

You're kidding with this question, right? It's not even a question. No matter who is politically in charge or what political issues are up in the air, armed Weimar men with 1923 weapons will be rebelling and crushing any 1823 attackers.

No - and its an invitation for debate not just flat rejection.

I am sorry about the dismissive tone of my response. That was rude.

[575]

Sept 7, 2024 20:54:57 GMT raharris1973 said:

Sept 6, 2024 10:49:20 GMT 575 said:

No - and its an invitation for debate not just flat rejection.

I am sorry about the dismissive tone of my response. That was rude.

Apology accepted.

[575]

My thoughts about Austrian reaction to the arrival of the Weimar Republic is that it will be violating the smooth running of business set up by the "Great Powers" lead by Metternich in Vienna 1815. This "concert" of Europe which had defeated the French upstart - Napoleon - would see to that autocracy would rule the World or at least Europe.

As a result of this state of events the French invasion of Spain 1822 was condoned by the other Great Powers except England and pulled off 1823. Now I don't expect England to declare war on Weimar Germany but its King may be rather pissed of by the state of affairs of his ancestral Kingdom though the present Duke of Brunswick Ernest Augustus may inform him of events in Germany since 1823 among this information the role of Weimar President Ebert in the revolutionary period of Germany following the defeat 1918 and suppression of Communist attempts at gaining power - a role that led to much controversy and anger on the left of German politics!

President Ebert will very much be using a strong hand in defending the Weimar Republic. Thus any attempt of armed aggression against the Republic will be defeated.

I'd expect Chancellor Stresemann to use his skills to restore German economic stability.

Given the European situation 1823 with revolutions ongoing around the Med Metternich might just be stupid enough to resort to armed force once President Ebert tells him to forget Austrian supremacy in "the German Confederation" and of any designs on Saarland.

I don't see Russia doing much about the state of affairs as their neighbour in the West still being a German nation with the Prussian lands just getting incorporated into the Weimar Republic - I'd expect Prussian King Frederich William III to be in Berlin and thus overwritten by the ISOT.
France is occupied in Spain so I'd venture the only armed response to come from Vienna with England sitting it out even if King George is furious - and the PM may be concerned about the future Rule of the Waves. For the last thing Weimar Germany need time to consolidate and build up trade relations though some may still want colonies lost to be returned.

[stevep]

Sept 9, 2024 10:33:22 GMT 575 said:

My thoughts about Austrian reaction to the arrival of the Weimar Republic is that it will be violating the smooth running of business set up by the "Great Powers" lead by Metternich in Vienna 1815. This "concert" of Europe which had defeated the French upstart - Napoleon - would see to that autocracy would rule the World or at least Europe.

As a result of this state of events the French invasion of Spain 1822 was condoned by the other Great Powers except England and pulled off 1823. Now I don't expect England to declare war on Weimar Germany but its King may be rather pissed of by the state of affairs of his ancestral Kingdom though the present Duke of Brunswick Ernest Augustus may inform him of events in Germany since 1823 among this information the role of Weimar President Ebert in the revolutionary period of Germany following the defeat 1918 and suppression of Communist attempts at gaining power - a role that led to much controversy and anger on the left of German politics!

President Ebert will very much be using a strong hand in defending the Weimar Republic. Thus any attempt of armed aggression against the Republic will be defeated.

I'd expect Chancellor Stresemann to use his skills to restore German economic stability.

Given the European situation 1823 with revolutions ongoing around the Med Metternich might just be stupid enough to resort to armed force once President Ebert tells him to forget Austrian supremacy in "the German Confederation" and of any designs on Saarland.

I don't see Russia doing much about the state of affairs as their neighbour in the West still being a German nation with the Prussian lands just getting incorporated into the Weimar Republic - I'd expect Prussian King Frederich William III to be in Berlin and thus overwritten by the ISOT.
France is occupied in Spain so I'd venture the only armed response to come from Vienna with England sitting it out even if King George is furious - and the PM may be concerned about the future Rule of the Waves. For the last thing Weimar Germany need time to consolidate and build up trade relations though some may still want colonies lost to be returned.

  One other aspect that may make Britain/England less angry was that the king was George IV who while pretty reactionary was both very much a flop and also strongly identified himself as British rather than the German identity of the bulk of the dynasty.  This process had started very much with his father George III and also with Hanover cut off for most of the past ~25 years due to being under the control of France or of its allies/puppets the link has been weakened markedly as well.  Also with his only child who was a daughter having died in childbirth and the current heir after the childless other brothers being the young Victoria the link to Hanover will be severed anyway when the current already elderly generation of Hanoverian princes die.

  With Europe pre-occupied with the German crisis as its probably going to be seen I wonder if France will have the time and resources to invade Spain here?  Definitely not if having probably brushed off any Austrian intervention - even if France hasn't tried to support this - the Wiemar republic decides to go for Alsace Lorraine.

[575]

Sept 9, 2024 12:23:09 GMT stevep said:

Sept 9, 2024 10:33:22 GMT 575 said:

My thoughts about Austrian reaction to the arrival of the Weimar Republic is that it will be violating the smooth running of business set up by the "Great Powers" lead by Metternich in Vienna 1815. This "concert" of Europe which had defeated the French upstart - Napoleon - would see to that autocracy would rule the World or at least Europe.

As a result of this state of events the French invasion of Spain 1822 was condoned by the other Great Powers except England and pulled off 1823. Now I don't expect England to declare war on Weimar Germany but its King may be rather pissed of by the state of affairs of his ancestral Kingdom though the present Duke of Brunswick Ernest Augustus may inform him of events in Germany since 1823 among this information the role of Weimar President Ebert in the revolutionary period of Germany following the defeat 1918 and suppression of Communist attempts at gaining power - a role that led to much controversy and anger on the left of German politics!

President Ebert will very much be using a strong hand in defending the Weimar Republic. Thus any attempt of armed aggression against the Republic will be defeated.

I'd expect Chancellor Stresemann to use his skills to restore German economic stability.

Given the European situation 1823 with revolutions ongoing around the Med Metternich might just be stupid enough to resort to armed force once President Ebert tells him to forget Austrian supremacy in "the German Confederation" and of any designs on Saarland.

I don't see Russia doing much about the state of affairs as their neighbour in the West still being a German nation with the Prussian lands just getting incorporated into the Weimar Republic - I'd expect Prussian King Frederich William III to be in Berlin and thus overwritten by the ISOT.
France is occupied in Spain so I'd venture the only armed response to come from Vienna with England sitting it out even if King George is furious - and the PM may be concerned about the future Rule of the Waves. For the last thing Weimar Germany need time to consolidate and build up trade relations though some may still want colonies lost to be returned.

  One other aspect that may make Britain/England less angry was that the king was George IV who while pretty reactionary was both very much a flop and also strongly identified himself as British rather than the German identity of the bulk of the dynasty.  This process had started very much with his father George III and also with Hanover cut off for most of the past ~25 years due to being under the control of France or of its allies/puppets the link has been weakened markedly as well.  Also with his only child who was a daughter having died in childbirth and the current heir after the childless other brothers being the young Victoria the link to Hanover will be severed anyway when the current already elderly generation of Hanoverian princes die.

  With Europe pre-occupied with the German crisis as its probably going to be seen I wonder if France will have the time and resources to invade Spain here?  Definitely not if having probably brushed off any Austrian intervention - even if France hasn't tried to support this - the Wiemar republic decides to go for Alsace Lorraine.

Thanks for the very interesting and important information on King George - as well as Vicky.

Have thought a lot on German aspirations on A-L and yes they may actually want to incorporated it.

I'm not certain that France with part of the Army already in Spain will decide to challenge Weimar Germany once Austria have received a bashing; with Britain out the Continental system have failed miserably and its everybody for themselves.