Interesting "Post-WWI" maps of a German that never was

[lordroel]

Interesting "Post-WWI" maps of a German that never was

These very interesting maps that show Germany future they wanted in the period of 1914 to 1918 come from this website called: The British Dominions Year Book 1918

Map I: Germany's demands in 1915.


Map II: A Pan-German Scheme for the Extinction of France


Map III: The Alleged Conspiracy between the Kaiser and the Archduke Francis Ferdinand, June, 1914


Map IV: The Reconstruction of Europe


Map V: Germany's goals for Africa

[spanishspy]

This strikes me as wartime fearmongering. I doubt the Hapsburgs would unite with the German Empire in that regard, and I doubt the Italians would want half of France.

[lordroel]

Jun 16, 2016 23:50:54 GMT spanishspy said:

This strikes me as wartime fearmongering. I doubt the Hapsburgs would unite with the German Empire in that regard, and I doubt the Italians would want half of France.

Why not, maybe if Italy chose German side they might get it as a reward.

[stevep]

I would agree with Spanishspy here. Most of those maps are rather dubious in background and the idea of Italy taking on so many French subjects seems highly unlikely. They might seek a few million non-European subjects in say Africa or Anatolia because they were seen as easier to rule/abuse but taking over half of France would really stretch their resources. There was a lot of 'ideas' and maps put forward and most I suspect were either by fringe groups or propaganda. Believe the 1st map may be fairly accurate as I think Germany wanted to control a lot of those territories, either directly or indirectly. Ditto some of their aims for central Africa, although I think the range of territory in map 5 seems rather inflated.

There were ideas for a Polish state to be carved largely out of Russian Polish lands but with Austrian Galaica and an Hapsburg king but I very much doubt it would be as huge and unwieldy as the one in map 3 nor could I see the Hapsburg's giving up their German lands as that map supposes.

There were extreme war aims, especially towards the end of the war as the Brest-Litovsk treaty showed but there was also a lot of hot air and propaganda. I think we need to be careful in sorting truth from myth.

[spanishspy]

Interesting how the Germans take Morocco and Tunisia, and the French take Algeria. Perhaps related to how the French had annexed Morocco not too long beforehand, although I can't immediately explain Tunisia.

[lordroel]

Jun 17, 2016 13:02:09 GMT spanishspy said:

Interesting how the Germans take Morocco and Tunisia, and the French take Algeria. Perhaps related to how the French had annexed Morocco not too long beforehand, although I can't immediately explain Tunisia.

Well the Germans once almost went to war over Morocco during the 1st and 2nd Moroccan Crisis's so they want it badly it seems.

[spanishspy]

Jun 17, 2016 14:44:17 GMT lordroel said:

Jun 17, 2016 13:02:09 GMT spanishspy said:

Interesting how the Germans take Morocco and Tunisia, and the French take Algeria. Perhaps related to how the French had annexed Morocco not too long beforehand, although I can't immediately explain Tunisia.

Well the Germans once almost went to war over Morocco during the 1st and 2nd Moroccan Crisis's so they want it badly it seems.

So long as Spain is not hostile it would allow Germany to control the Straits of Gibraltar.

[lordroel]

Jun 17, 2016 16:38:30 GMT spanishspy said:

Jun 17, 2016 14:44:17 GMT lordroel said:

Well the Germans once almost went to war over Morocco during the 1st and 2nd Moroccan Crisis's so they want it badly it seems.

So long as Spain is not hostile it would allow Germany to control the Straits of Gibraltar.

If Germany had won the war i would think that Spain whould jumped at being a new best friend to Germany, as do other countries like Denmark, Norway and even Sweden.

[spanishspy]

Jun 17, 2016 16:40:37 GMT lordroel said:

Jun 17, 2016 16:38:30 GMT spanishspy said:

So long as Spain is not hostile it would allow Germany to control the Straits of Gibraltar.

If Germany had won the war i would think that Spain whould jumped at being a new best friend to Germany, as do other countries like Denmark, Norway and even Sweden.

Mostly out of fear, if Germany is that strong. They'd have their Zollverein.

[futurist]

Jun 16, 2016 21:00:57 GMT lordroel said:

Interesting "Post-WWI" maps of a German that never was

These very interesting maps that show Germany future they wanted in the period of 1914 to 1918 come from this website called: The British Dominions Year Book 1918

Map I: Germany's demands in 1915.

Not enough Lebensraum im Osten if you ask me!

[spanishspy]

Jun 19, 2016 1:39:32 GMT futurist said:

Jun 16, 2016 21:00:57 GMT lordroel said:

Interesting "Post-WWI" maps of a German that never was

These very interesting maps that show Germany future they wanted in the period of 1914 to 1918 come from this website called: The British Dominions Year Book 1918

Map I: Germany's demands in 1915.

Not enough Lebensraum im Osten if you ask me!

Wasn't that mostly a Nazi thing?

[lordroel]

Jun 19, 2016 4:45:50 GMT spanishspy said:

Jun 19, 2016 1:39:32 GMT futurist said:

Not enough Lebensraum im Osten if you ask me!

Wasn't that mostly a Nazi thing?

I do not know, might be but then again it might not be.

[futurist]

Jun 19, 2016 4:45:50 GMT spanishspy said:

Jun 19, 2016 1:39:32 GMT futurist said:

Not enough Lebensraum im Osten if you ask me!

Wasn't that mostly a Nazi thing?

Eh ... one can argue that the U.S.'s implementation of Manifest Destiny in the 1840s was likewise a case of Lebensraum (albeit a more "moderate" case in comparison to what the Nazis did and wanted to do).

[futurist]

Jun 19, 2016 8:08:22 GMT lordroel said:

Jun 19, 2016 4:45:50 GMT spanishspy said:

Wasn't that mostly a Nazi thing?

I do not know, might be but then again it might not be.

Frankly, it appears that Manifest Destiny was an early example/case of a country acquiring additional Lebensraum (living space). Indeed, Adolf Hitler even compared the Russians to "Redskins" on at least one occasion!

[stevep]

Jun 20, 2016 2:28:35 GMT futurist said:

Jun 19, 2016 4:45:50 GMT spanishspy said:

Wasn't that mostly a Nazi thing?

Eh ... one can argue that the U.S.'s implementation of Manifest Destiny in the 1840s was likewise a case of Lebensraum (albeit a more "moderate" case in comparison to what the Nazis did and wanted to do).

  I don't know about more moderate but definitely more successful as it was in an earlier period, against non-Europeans [both meaning it faced less revulsion] and against a much weaker opponent.  Such behaviour is fairly rare in world history but not totally unknown.  You could see a similar process, although somewhat more restricted in Australia say.  Elsewhere imperial states, recent and more ancient tended to seek conquests to govern rather than exterminate/expel and replace with new populations.