Interesting "Post-WWI" maps of a German that never was

[spanishspy]

Jun 20, 2016 2:28:35 GMT futurist said:

Jun 19, 2016 4:45:50 GMT spanishspy said:

Wasn't that mostly a Nazi thing?

Eh ... one can argue that the U.S.'s implementation of Manifest Destiny in the 1840s was likewise a case of Lebensraum (albeit a more "moderate" case in comparison to what the Nazis did and wanted to do).

I meant more so that the concept of Lebensraum, when applied to Germany in particular, was a creation of the Nazis; that sort of war of extermination was something that was explicitly and uniquely Nazi in origin. I don't think the Kaiser wanted to go on a war of genocide as Hitler did.

I'm not denying some similarity to Manifest Destiny, I'm just saying that its German application was a product of the Nazi era.

[futurist]

Jun 21, 2016 13:00:22 GMT spanishspy said:

Jun 20, 2016 2:28:35 GMT futurist said:

Eh ... one can argue that the U.S.'s implementation of Manifest Destiny in the 1840s was likewise a case of Lebensraum (albeit a more "moderate" case in comparison to what the Nazis did and wanted to do).

I meant more so that the concept of Lebensraum, when applied to Germany in particular, was a creation of the Nazis; that sort of war of extermination was something that was explicitly and uniquely Nazi in origin. I don't think the Kaiser wanted to go on a war of genocide as Hitler did.

I'm not denying some similarity to Manifest Destiny, I'm just saying that its German application was a product of the Nazi era.

OK. However, I am talking about Lebensraum (living space) in the general sense here. Indeed, the Nazis' version of Lebensraum (living space) was certainly extremely brutal, atrocious, and tragic!

[futurist]

Jun 20, 2016 21:15:54 GMT stevep said:

Jun 20, 2016 2:28:35 GMT futurist said:

Eh ... one can argue that the U.S.'s implementation of Manifest Destiny in the 1840s was likewise a case of Lebensraum (albeit a more "moderate" case in comparison to what the Nazis did and wanted to do).

  I don't know about more moderate but definitely more successful as it was in an earlier period, against non-Europeans [both meaning it faced less revulsion] and against a much weaker opponent.  Such behaviour is fairly rare in world history but not totally unknown.  You could see a similar process, although somewhat more restricted in Australia say.  Elsewhere imperial states, recent and more ancient tended to seek conquests to govern rather than exterminate/expel and replace with new populations.

The U.S. didn't try wiping out ethnic groups in whole or in part like the Nazis did, though. Indeed, please correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know, the U.S. aimed to expel and perhaps sometimes assimilate Native Americans rather than to destroy Native American ethnic groups in whole or in part.

[spanishspy]

Jun 22, 2016 7:47:24 GMT futurist said:

Jun 21, 2016 13:00:22 GMT spanishspy said:

I meant more so that the concept of Lebensraum, when applied to Germany in particular, was a creation of the Nazis; that sort of war of extermination was something that was explicitly and uniquely Nazi in origin. I don't think the Kaiser wanted to go on a war of genocide as Hitler did.

I'm not denying some similarity to Manifest Destiny, I'm just saying that its German application was a product of the Nazi era.

OK. However, I am talking about Lebensraum (living space) in the general sense here. Indeed, the Nazis' version of Lebensraum (living space) was certainly extremely brutal, atrocious, and tragic!

The term 'Lebensraum' is overwhelmingly used in a German context. Generalizing it only will confuse people.

[stevep]

Jun 22, 2016 7:49:07 GMT futurist said:

Jun 20, 2016 21:15:54 GMT stevep said:

  I don't know about more moderate but definitely more successful as it was in an earlier period, against non-Europeans [both meaning it faced less revulsion] and against a much weaker opponent.  Such behaviour is fairly rare in world history but not totally unknown.  You could see a similar process, although somewhat more restricted in Australia say.  Elsewhere imperial states, recent and more ancient tended to seek conquests to govern rather than exterminate/expel and replace with new populations.

The U.S. didn't try wiping out ethnic groups in whole or in part like the Nazis did, though. Indeed, please correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know, the U.S. aimed to expel and perhaps sometimes assimilate Native Americans rather than to destroy Native American ethnic groups in whole or in part.

  It depends on what you mean by wipe out.  The general attitude was to drive them out of any lands they possessed, regardless of the costs to the Indians.  There was a rejection of the idea of assimilation, as demonstrated by the treatment of the 5 'Civilised' tribes.  Even the one section of territory promised to them was seized for white settlers when they desired it. 

[futurist]

Jun 22, 2016 13:04:17 GMT spanishspy said:

Jun 22, 2016 7:47:24 GMT futurist said:

OK. However, I am talking about Lebensraum (living space) in the general sense here. Indeed, the Nazis' version of Lebensraum (living space) was certainly extremely brutal, atrocious, and tragic!

The term 'Lebensraum' is overwhelmingly used in a German context. Generalizing it only will confuse people.

So, should I use the term "living space" instead here, or what?

[futurist]

Jun 22, 2016 15:28:47 GMT stevep said:

Jun 22, 2016 7:49:07 GMT futurist said:

The U.S. didn't try wiping out ethnic groups in whole or in part like the Nazis did, though. Indeed, please correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know, the U.S. aimed to expel and perhaps sometimes assimilate Native Americans rather than to destroy Native American ethnic groups in whole or in part.

  It depends on what you mean by wipe out.  The general attitude was to drive them out of any lands they possessed, regardless of the costs to the Indians.  There was a rejection of the idea of assimilation, as demonstrated by the treatment of the 5 'Civilised' tribes.  Even the one section of territory promised to them was seized for white settlers when they desired it. 

Expulsions, while certainly extremely atrocious, certainly aren't the same thing as genocide, though.

Also, in regards to assimilation, didn't the 1887 Dawes Act promote Native American assimilation?

[stevep]

Jun 23, 2016 0:31:36 GMT futurist said:

Jun 22, 2016 15:28:47 GMT stevep said:

  It depends on what you mean by wipe out.  The general attitude was to drive them out of any lands they possessed, regardless of the costs to the Indians.  There was a rejection of the idea of assimilation, as demonstrated by the treatment of the 5 'Civilised' tribes.  Even the one section of territory promised to them was seized for white settlers when they desired it. 

Expulsions, while certainly extremely atrocious, certainly aren't the same thing as genocide, though.

Also, in regards to assimilation, didn't the 1887 Dawes Act promote Native American assimilation?

  It depends on how extreme it was.  For instance the Turkish actions against the Armenians in 1915 were called a relocation.  Also unlike for the Jews I think the Nazi plans for the Slavs was more enslavement than outright extremination, with them being used as a subject population to supply labour for the incoming German settlers.  As such at least they would still be kept in the lands they grew up in, albeit under pretty brutal 'landowners'.

  Don't know about the 1887 act, as I was thinking of earlier actions by the US.