Map: The last stand, German National Redoubt

[lordroel]

The Alpine Fortress (German: Alpenfestung) or Alpine Redoubt was the World War II national redoubt planned by Heinrich Himmler in November/December 1943 for Germany's government and armed forces to retreat to an area from "southern Bavaria across western Austria to northern Italy". The plan was never fully endorsed by Hitler and no serious attempt was made to put the plan into operation.

Map of the “mountain heart of Europe” from Life magazine, April 9, 1945



Map of “Hitler’s Inner Fortress” in the Alps, from Time magazine, February 12, 1945



Links of interesting

Article by the ATLANTIC SENTINEL called: The German National Redoubt That Wasn’t

Wikipedia article called: Alpine Fortress

[stevep]

That could have been a pig to have cleared them out of if they had done that. I know the US especially were concerned about such a policy being adopted. Wouldn't have had a massive amount of industry in the region so might have been possibly to have cordoned them off and starved them out but could have been politically difficult. Definitely wouldn't have liked to have been a commander ordered to clear out well dug in troops from that sort of terrain.

[lordroel]

Jul 9, 2016 16:26:45 GMT stevep said:

That could have been a pig to have cleared them out of if they had done that. I know the US especially were concerned about such a policy being adopted. Wouldn't have had a massive amount of industry in the region so might have been possibly to have cordoned them off and starved them out but could have been politically difficult. Definitely wouldn't have liked to have been a commander ordered to clear out well dug in troops from that sort of terrain.

Well that why it is good that it was only a myth as General Omar Bradley later said the Alpenfestung myth “grew into so exaggerated a scheme that I am astonished we could have believed it as innocently as we did. But while it persisted, this legend of the redoubt was too ominous a threat to be ignored.”

[Deleted]

stevep said:

Wouldn't have had a massive amount of industry in the region so might have been possibly to have cordoned them off and starved them out but could have been politically difficult.

Not that politically difficult, bearing in mind the Expulsion of Germans in the East (approx 500,000 dead, mostly from starvation)

[lordroel]

Jul 12, 2016 18:09:23 GMT @vonhitchofen said:

stevep said:

Wouldn't have had a massive amount of industry in the region so might have been possibly to have cordoned them off and starved them out but could have been politically difficult.

Not that politically difficult, bearing in mind the Expulsion of Germans in the East (approx 500,000 dead, mostly from starvation)

But would the Allies and the Soviets work together in this giant blockade or would the Soviet srew you Allies, we will clean this up and o we will keep all of that territory.

[stevep]

As Lordroel says there is the political difficulty of Western Allies and Soviets possibly disagreeing over the shares and also the Soviets are more likely to plough in regardless of the costs than the western allies. Also there is the factor that for political reasons the allies want the war over and not just to be able to commit more forces against Japan. If Hitler had agreed to the Redoubt and withdrawn into it then it would have been difficult not to seek to get him quickly.

On the plus side if this had happened the resources put into the Redoubt would have reduced the defenses elsewhere. Also if this was clearly being set up in advance while it might make the fanatics fight on I suspect that a lot of ordinary Germans and army personnel would probably feel deserted and might fight less determinedly, especially on the western front.

[Deleted]

stevep said:

As Lordroel says there is the political difficulty of Western Allies and Soviets possibly disagreeing over the shares and also the Soviets are more likely to plough in regardless of the costs than the western allies.

lordroel said:

But would the Allies and the Soviets work together in this giant blockade or would the Soviet screw you Allies, we will clean this up and we will keep all of that territory.

Given most of this territory is utterly useless to the Soviets, what incentive did they have to stay?

Even the region of Austria they held was far more useful to them, and they pulled out of that.

stevep said:

On the plus side if this had happened the resources put into the Redoubt would have reduced the defenses elsewhere.

Bearing in mind the amount of manpower and resources being squandered on Project Riese, Weingut I, and Fuhrerhauptquartier Siegfried, all unused and unfinished, I think the Alpine Redoubt would speed up the Reich's collapse

[lordroel]

Jul 12, 2016 19:26:21 GMT @vonhitchofen said:

lordroel said:

But would the Allies and the Soviets work together in this giant blockade or would the Soviet screw you Allies, we will clean this up and we will keep all of that territory.

Given most of this territory is utterly useless to the Soviets, what incentive did they have to stay?

Even the region of Austria they held was far more useful to them, and they pulled out of that.

Maybe having control of much larger territory this could change and the Soviet decide to keep their part of Austria and what ever part of the former National Redoubt they have taken.