An Alternate World War for The Netherlands.

[eurowatch]

Part II: The Rise of the Fourth Empire.

"The only Thing necassery for the victory of tyranny, is for free men to do nothing." Swiss president Rudolf Minger.

After the devastation of the first world war, it was hoped that it never would happen again.
The difference between the first world war and the second is not only in the weapons and tactics used, but also in the causes. WW1 was primarily caused by extreme nationalism and an intricate web of alliances.
The cause of WW2 was more simple: revenge.
The war killed almost four million Frenchmen and injured millions more, only to end in a resolution that changed essentially nothing but was still hard enough to make people feel like they had lost.
The National Party led by Jacques Doriot thrifted on all the resentment. Running a far-right platform based on blaming the Dutch and various minorities for everything that had gone wrong during the war, he preached to the masses. Without the Dutch, the Central Powers would not have been able to outflank the Allies badly enough for their leaders to sue for peace. Without the Jews, France wouldn’t be forced to pay back all those loans that had crippled the economy and caused the collapse of their colonial empire. Without the Germans, France wouldn’t be denied her rightful place as ruler of the continent.
His extremist views struck a chord with people and in 1935 Doriot was elected president. From there he began to gradually dismantle the democratic foundation of France while keeping the population happy with state sponsored projects to get the economy going again. His ambition did not end there, and in 1936 he claimed the annual Dutch-German war games were practice for a new invasion of France. To defend against such an invasion the military must be rebuilt into a force that would have made Napoleon proud.
With the risk for a war in Asia and North America growing, niether Berlin nor The Hague was especially willing to confront Doriot about his warmongering or the atrocities he committed against the minorities under his rule, even as their borders were flooded by refugees.
They only began to react when French troops marched into Switzerland in 1938, under the argument that “they speak French, thus are a part of France”. In reality, Doriot’s motive were only partially fueled by nationalism. The economy, despite generous “donation” from the minorities and some shrewd bookkeeping, was starting to tank and raiding the Swiss banks would be enough to keep the money flowing for the coming years.
Rather than take a hard stance against Doriot, the Allies chose to appease him by letting him have Switzerland in return for a non-aggression pact. The image of prime minister Colijn holding up the pact while stating that he had secured “peace in our time” would go on to become widely mocked before the year was over.
Many people forget that Colijn’s plan was not to buy peace, it was to buy time. Commitments in China, Canada and Africa had taken their toll on the Dutch strategic reserves, and even the mightiest military could not wage war without ammunition or weaponry.
In that effect, Colijn succeeded. His appeasement secured the United Provinces precious time to rearm and redirect resources to protect the homelands, avoiding a swift defeat when Doriot allied with Louisiana and invaded the United Provinces.

[lordroel]

Jul 22, 2016 0:11:31 GMT eurowatch said:

Part II: The Rise of the French Empire.

"The only Thing necassery for the victory of tyranny, is for free men to do nothing." Swiss president Rudolf Minger.

After the devastation of the first world war, it was hoped that it never would happen again.
The difference between the first world war and the second is not only in the weapons and tactics used, but also in the causes. WW1 was primarily caused by extreme nationalism and an intricate web of alliances.
The cause of WW2 was more simple: revenge.
The war killed almost eight million Frenchmen and injured millions more, only to end in a resolution that changed essentially nothing but was still hard enough to make people feel like they had lost.
The National Party led by Jacques Doriot thrifted on all the resentment. Running a far-right platform based on blaming the Dutch and various minorities for everything that had gone wrong during the war, he preached to the masses. Without the Dutch, the Central Powers would not have been able to outflank the Allies badly enough for their leaders to sue for peace. Without the Jews, France wouldn’t be forced to pay back all those loans that had crippled the economy and caused the collapse of their colonial empire. Without the Germans, France wouldn’t be denied her rightful place as ruler of the continent.
His extremist views struck a chord with people and in 1935 Doriot was elected president. From there he began to gradually dismantle the democratic foundation of France while keeping the population happy with state sponsored projects to get the economy going again. His ambition did not end there, and in 1936 he claimed the annual Dutch-German war games were practice for a new invasion of France. To defend against such an invasion the military must be rebuilt into a force that would have made Napoleon proud.
With the risk for a war in Asia and North America growing, niether Berlin nor The Hague was especially willing to confront Doriot about his warmongering or the atrocities he committed against the minorities under his rule, even as their borders were flooded by refugees.
They only began to react when French troops marched into Switzerland in 1938, under the argument that “they speak French, thus are a part of France”. In reality, Doriot’s motive were only partially fueled by nationalism. The economy, despite generous “donation” from the minorities and some shrewd bookkeeping, was starting to tank and raiding the Swiss banks would be enough to keep the money flowing for the coming years.
Rather than take a hard stance against Doriot, the Allies chose to appease him by letting him have Switzerland in return for a non-aggression pact. The image of prime minister Colijn holding up the pact while stating that he had secured “peace in our time” would go on to become widely mocked before the year was over.
Many people forget that Colijn’s plan was not to buy peace, it was to buy time. Commitments in China, Canada and Africa had taken their toll on the Dutch strategic reserves, and even the mightiest military could not wage war without ammunition or weaponry.
In that effect, Colijn succeeded. His appeasement secured the United Provinces precious time to rearm and redirect resources to protect the homelands, avoiding a swift defeat when Doriot allied with Louisiana and the United Provinces.

So the French Empire is OTL Third Reich, that is if i am right.

[stevep]

Jul 22, 2016 0:11:31 GMT eurowatch said:

Part II: The Rise of the French Empire.

"The only Thing necassery for the victory of tyranny, is for free men to do nothing." Swiss president Rudolf Minger.

After the devastation of the first world war, it was hoped that it never would happen again.
The difference between the first world war and the second is not only in the weapons and tactics used, but also in the causes. WW1 was primarily caused by extreme nationalism and an intricate web of alliances.
The cause of WW2 was more simple: revenge.
The war killed almost eight million Frenchmen and injured millions more, only to end in a resolution that changed essentially nothing but was still hard enough to make people feel like they had lost.
The National Party led by Jacques Doriot thrifted on all the resentment. Running a far-right platform based on blaming the Dutch and various minorities for everything that had gone wrong during the war, he preached to the masses. Without the Dutch, the Central Powers would not have been able to outflank the Allies badly enough for their leaders to sue for peace. Without the Jews, France wouldn’t be forced to pay back all those loans that had crippled the economy and caused the collapse of their colonial empire. Without the Germans, France wouldn’t be denied her rightful place as ruler of the continent.
His extremist views struck a chord with people and in 1935 Doriot was elected president. From there he began to gradually dismantle the democratic foundation of France while keeping the population happy with state sponsored projects to get the economy going again. His ambition did not end there, and in 1936 he claimed the annual Dutch-German war games were practice for a new invasion of France. To defend against such an invasion the military must be rebuilt into a force that would have made Napoleon proud.
With the risk for a war in Asia and North America growing, niether Berlin nor The Hague was especially willing to confront Doriot about his warmongering or the atrocities he committed against the minorities under his rule, even as their borders were flooded by refugees.
They only began to react when French troops marched into Switzerland in 1938, under the argument that “they speak French, thus are a part of France”. In reality, Doriot’s motive were only partially fueled by nationalism. The economy, despite generous “donation” from the minorities and some shrewd bookkeeping, was starting to tank and raiding the Swiss banks would be enough to keep the money flowing for the coming years.
Rather than take a hard stance against Doriot, the Allies chose to appease him by letting him have Switzerland in return for a non-aggression pact. The image of prime minister Colijn holding up the pact while stating that he had secured “peace in our time” would go on to become widely mocked before the year was over.
Many people forget that Colijn’s plan was not to buy peace, it was to buy time. Commitments in China, Canada and Africa had taken their toll on the Dutch strategic reserves, and even the mightiest military could not wage war without ammunition or weaponry.
In that effect, Colijn succeeded. His appeasement secured the United Provinces precious time to rearm and redirect resources to protect the homelands, avoiding a swift defeat when Doriot allied with Louisiana and the United Provinces.

  Eurowatch

  I don't know the TL other than its obviously a mega-wank for the Netherlands but it sounds like there's a typo in this last bit as it sounds like the French fascists allied with Louisiana and the UP, where the UP is the name for the Dutch empire?  Guessing that either you mean a 3rd ally in the fascist league or that France and Louisiana ally against the UP?

  Also I'm wondering about the size of France, which is obviously a lot larger than OTL if they can lose 8 million dead in WWI, lose the war which presumably means territorial loses as well as economic limitations and still be a viable great power.  Have they annexed Spain or southern Italy to be able to absorb such manpower losses without virtually collapsing?

  The fact that Louisiana seems to be a major power suggests that the US is either non-existent or a lot weaker.  Also that amongst other places the UP seems to rule Canada and India, albeit with some opposition seems to bode ill for Britain?  [Unless possibly its a case where some butterflies means that the 'Dutch' and British have been merged, say in some aftermath of William III [of Britain but checking Wiki he was also William III of the Netherlands which I never realised. ]

[lordroel]

Jul 22, 2016 10:02:48 GMT stevep said:

Jul 22, 2016 0:11:31 GMT eurowatch said:

Part II: The Rise of the French Empire.

"The only Thing necassery for the victory of tyranny, is for free men to do nothing." Swiss president Rudolf Minger.

After the devastation of the first world war, it was hoped that it never would happen again.
The difference between the first world war and the second is not only in the weapons and tactics used, but also in the causes. WW1 was primarily caused by extreme nationalism and an intricate web of alliances.
The cause of WW2 was more simple: revenge.
The war killed almost eight million Frenchmen and injured millions more, only to end in a resolution that changed essentially nothing but was still hard enough to make people feel like they had lost.
The National Party led by Jacques Doriot thrifted on all the resentment. Running a far-right platform based on blaming the Dutch and various minorities for everything that had gone wrong during the war, he preached to the masses. Without the Dutch, the Central Powers would not have been able to outflank the Allies badly enough for their leaders to sue for peace. Without the Jews, France wouldn’t be forced to pay back all those loans that had crippled the economy and caused the collapse of their colonial empire. Without the Germans, France wouldn’t be denied her rightful place as ruler of the continent.
His extremist views struck a chord with people and in 1935 Doriot was elected president. From there he began to gradually dismantle the democratic foundation of France while keeping the population happy with state sponsored projects to get the economy going again. His ambition did not end there, and in 1936 he claimed the annual Dutch-German war games were practice for a new invasion of France. To defend against such an invasion the military must be rebuilt into a force that would have made Napoleon proud.
With the risk for a war in Asia and North America growing, niether Berlin nor The Hague was especially willing to confront Doriot about his warmongering or the atrocities he committed against the minorities under his rule, even as their borders were flooded by refugees.
They only began to react when French troops marched into Switzerland in 1938, under the argument that “they speak French, thus are a part of France”. In reality, Doriot’s motive were only partially fueled by nationalism. The economy, despite generous “donation” from the minorities and some shrewd bookkeeping, was starting to tank and raiding the Swiss banks would be enough to keep the money flowing for the coming years.
Rather than take a hard stance against Doriot, the Allies chose to appease him by letting him have Switzerland in return for a non-aggression pact. The image of prime minister Colijn holding up the pact while stating that he had secured “peace in our time” would go on to become widely mocked before the year was over.
Many people forget that Colijn’s plan was not to buy peace, it was to buy time. Commitments in China, Canada and Africa had taken their toll on the Dutch strategic reserves, and even the mightiest military could not wage war without ammunition or weaponry.
In that effect, Colijn succeeded. His appeasement secured the United Provinces precious time to rearm and redirect resources to protect the homelands, avoiding a swift defeat when Doriot allied with Louisiana and the United Provinces.

  Eurowatch

  I don't know the TL other than its obviously a mega-wank for the Netherlands but it sounds like there's a typo in this last bit as it sounds like the French fascists allied with Louisiana and the UP, where the UP is the name for the Dutch empire?  Guessing that either you mean a 3rd ally in the fascist league or that France and Louisiana ally against the UP?

  Also I'm wondering about the size of France, which is obviously a lot larger than OTL if they can lose 8 million dead in WWI, lose the war which presumably means territorial loses as well as economic limitations and still be a viable great power.  Have they annexed Spain or southern Italy to be able to absorb such manpower losses without virtually collapsing?

  The fact that Louisiana seems to be a major power suggests that the US is either non-existent or a lot weaker.  Also that amongst other places the UP seems to rule Canada and India, albeit with some opposition seems to bode ill for Britain?  [Unless possibly its a case where some butterflies means that the 'Dutch' and British have been merged, say in some aftermath of William III [of Britain but checking Wiki he was also William III of the Netherlands which I never realised. ]

Check out this website called An Alternate History of the Netherlands or this An Alternate History of the Netherlands (and more) blog for more information

[eurowatch]

Jul 22, 2016 10:02:48 GMT stevep said:

I don't know the TL other than its obviously a mega-wank for the Netherlands but it sounds like there's a typo in this last bit as it sounds like the French fascists allied with Louisiana and the UP, where the UP is the name for the Dutch empire?  Guessing that either you mean a 3rd ally in the fascist league or that France and Louisiana ally against the UP?

No! An error managed to slip past my editing! I am terrible sorry for making such a mistake, I Will do my best to make sure it never happens again.

For refrence, the United Provinces is what we would call the Netherlands (in TTL they never changed the name after the Napoleonic Wars) while the Dutch Commonwealth is for the empire as a Whole.

Jul 22, 2016 10:02:48 GMT stevep said:

Also I'm wondering about the size of France, which is obviously a lot larger than OTL if they can lose 8 million dead in WWI, lose the war which presumably means territorial loses as well as economic limitations and still be a viable great power.  Have they annexed Spain or southern Italy to be able to absorb such manpower losses without virtually collapsing?

I Guess I can scale the losses back to about four millions or handwave it away With that France was forced to use a lot of Colonial soldiers?
The peace treaty basicly boiled Down to restoring the 1914 borders, but France and Britian were forced to Accept all blame for the war. The economic chaos was pretty similar to what happened to the Weimar Republic and was temporarly solved the same way.

Jul 22, 2016 10:02:48 GMT stevep said:

  The fact that Louisiana seems to be a major power suggests that the US is either non-existent or a lot weaker.  Also that amongst other places the UP seems to rule Canada and India, albeit with some opposition seems to bode ill for Britain?  ]

The US emerged in 1920 after a breif rebellion due to oppresive taxes and the New Netherlands Army marching in to back them and get the situation under Control (not necasserily in that order). Since then they have been a stalwarts Dutch ally and are really interested in protecting their freedom. They are basicly TTL Finland.
Canada is pure technicly the last remant of the British empire, after the royal Family was forced to flee there to Escape a communist revolution. The other British empire has lost most of its colonies (With the exception of Hawaii, Argentina, the Falklands and some islands in the Bahamas) and hates everything capatalist. The only exceptions are their allies, who are "honourably" communist.

Jul 22, 2016 10:02:48 GMT stevep said:

[Unless possibly its a case where some butterflies means that the 'Dutch' and British have been merged, say in some aftermath of William III [of Britain but checking Wiki he was also William III of the Netherlands which I never realised. ]

There is a great timeline (which name Escapes me at the moment) that had that as its premise. By the end the Anglo-Dutch empire rules half the world.

[lordroel]

Jul 22, 2016 15:15:19 GMT eurowatch said:

There is a great timeline (which name Escapes me at the moment) that had that as its premise. By the end the Anglo-Dutch empire rules half the world.

Well if you ever find it post a link please.

[eurowatch]

Jul 22, 2016 15:34:07 GMT lordroel said:

Jul 22, 2016 15:15:19 GMT eurowatch said:

There is a great timeline (which name Escapes me at the moment) that had that as its premise. By the end the Anglo-Dutch empire rules half the world.

Well if you ever find it post a link please.

Will do.

[lordroel]

Does Japan posse a threat to Dutch Formosa.

[stevep]

Jul 22, 2016 10:11:21 GMT lordroel said:

Jul 22, 2016 10:02:48 GMT stevep said:

  Eurowatch

  I don't know the TL other than its obviously a mega-wank for the Netherlands but it sounds like there's a typo in this last bit as it sounds like the French fascists allied with Louisiana and the UP, where the UP is the name for the Dutch empire?  Guessing that either you mean a 3rd ally in the fascist league or that France and Louisiana ally against the UP?

  Also I'm wondering about the size of France, which is obviously a lot larger than OTL if they can lose 8 million dead in WWI, lose the war which presumably means territorial loses as well as economic limitations and still be a viable great power.  Have they annexed Spain or southern Italy to be able to absorb such manpower losses without virtually collapsing?

  The fact that Louisiana seems to be a major power suggests that the US is either non-existent or a lot weaker.  Also that amongst other places the UP seems to rule Canada and India, albeit with some opposition seems to bode ill for Britain?  [Unless possibly its a case where some butterflies means that the 'Dutch' and British have been merged, say in some aftermath of William III [of Britain but checking Wiki he was also William III of the Netherlands which I never realised. ]

Check out this website called An Alternate History of the Netherlands or this An Alternate History of the Netherlands (and more) blog for more information

  Gods that's big.  Been binging on Rome Total War, got a game at very hard difficulty going as the Greek City states and just taken out the Bruti, so one Roman faction down while the Pontics are being held back, the Macedonians have been largely defeated and just stopped a Carthaginian attack on Messana so looking good but been busy most of today.  Late now but will try and read through or at least skim through tomorrow.

  Thanks.

  Steve

  PS  Like eurowatch I also remember an Anglo-Dutch union but unfortunately like him I can't remember where it is.    Suspect probably somewhere on the AH site as that had so much material there.

[lordroel]

Jul 22, 2016 21:12:46 GMT stevep said:

Jul 22, 2016 10:11:21 GMT lordroel said:

Check out this website called An Alternate History of the Netherlands or this An Alternate History of the Netherlands (and more) blog for more information

  Gods that's big.  Been binging on Rome Total War, got a game at very hard difficulty going as the Greek City states and just taken out the Bruti, so one Roman faction down while the Pontics are being held back, the Macedonians have been largely defeated and just stopped a Carthaginian attack on Messana so looking good but been busy most of today.  Late now but will try and read through or at least skim through tomorrow.

  Thanks.

  Steve

  PS  Like eurowatch I also remember an Anglo-Dutch union but unfortunately like him I can't remember where it is.    Suspect probably somewhere on the AH site as that had so much material there.

Is it this one maybe, its called Anglo-Dutch Empire 

[eurowatch]

Jul 22, 2016 19:31:32 GMT lordroel said:

Does Japan posse a threat to Dutch Formosa?

Japan poses a threat to all of Asia, Formosa is just going to be hit by the full brunt of the offensive while Indonesia has time to mobilise. Fortunantly the Royal Formosan Army and Airforce boost some of the best trained soldiers in the Commonwealth and lots of tanks. To act as failsafe the Battleship Hr. Ms. Koningin van Ceylon (SS-47) and her cruiser taskforce are on constant patrol in the area.

[lordroel]

Jul 22, 2016 21:42:19 GMT eurowatch said:

Jul 22, 2016 19:31:32 GMT lordroel said:

Does Japan posse a threat to Dutch Formosa?

Japan poses a threat to all of Asia, Formosa is just going to be hit by the full brunt of the offensive while Indonesia has time to mobilise. Fortunantly the Royal Formosan Army and Airforce boost some of the best trained soldiers in the Commonwealth and lots of tanks. To act as failsafe the Battleship Hr. Ms. Koningin van Ceylon (SS-47) and her cruiser taskforce are on constant patrol in the area.

So Dutch Formosa is more trusted than Dutch India, also which class does the Hr. Ms. Koningin van Ceylon belong to.

Who controls Hong Kong and Macau in this universe.

[eurowatch]

Jul 23, 2016 5:49:49 GMT lordroel said:

Jul 22, 2016 21:42:19 GMT eurowatch said:

Japan poses a threat to all of Asia, Formosa is just going to be hit by the full brunt of the offensive while Indonesia has time to mobilise. Fortunantly the Royal Formosan Army and Airforce boost some of the best trained soldiers in the Commonwealth and lots of tanks. To act as failsafe the Battleship Hr. Ms. Koningin van Ceylon (SS-47) and her cruiser taskforce are on constant patrol in the area.

So Dutch Formosa is more trusted than Dutch India, also which class does the Hr. Ms. Koningin van Ceylon belong to.

Who controls Hong Kong and Macau in this universe.

India is the least trusted, so every other member is more trusted then them by default.

The Hr. Ms. Koningin van Ceylon belongs to the Keizerin van Brazil-Class, a Class of Battleships build in 1922. They are:
Keizerin van Brazil (SS-46)
Koningin van Ceylon (SS-47)
Prinsess van Hainan (SS-48)
Koningin van Nederland (SS-49)
Beschermer der Boeren (SS-50)
Juweel van India (SS-51)
Note that Nederland is here used to refer to Nieuw Nederland due to that being the only member carrying the name.

The Dutch took over Macau from the Portuguese and have been using it as a trading port ever since while the Germans took over Hong Kong.

[lordroel]

Jul 23, 2016 7:40:00 GMT eurowatch said:

The Hr. Ms. Koningin van Ceylon belongs to the Keizerin van Brazil-Class, a Class of Battleships build in 1922. They are:
Keizerin van Brazil (SS-46)
Koningin van Ceylon (SS-47)
Prinsess van Hainan (SS-48)
Koningin van Nederland (SS-49)
Beschermer der Boeren (SS-50)
Juweel van India (SS-51)
Note that Nederland is here used to refer to Nieuw Nederland due to that being the only member carrying the name.

As long as the Dutch Commonwealth does not build those mega battleships like the British Lion, Germans H-44, Japanese Super Yamatos or American Montana's i am fine with what ever the Dutch build.

Jul 23, 2016 7:40:00 GMT eurowatch said:

The Dutch took over Macau from the Portuguese and have been using it as a trading port ever since while the Germans took over Hong Kong.

Do the Germans also control Kiautschou Bay as they did in OTL or is the German presence in China bigger.

[stevep]

Jul 22, 2016 21:16:34 GMT lordroel said:

Jul 22, 2016 21:12:46 GMT stevep said:

  Gods that's big.  Been binging on Rome Total War, got a game at very hard difficulty going as the Greek City states and just taken out the Bruti, so one Roman faction down while the Pontics are being held back, the Macedonians have been largely defeated and just stopped a Carthaginian attack on Messana so looking good but been busy most of today.  Late now but will try and read through or at least skim through tomorrow.

  Thanks.

  Steve

  PS  Like eurowatch I also remember an Anglo-Dutch union but unfortunately like him I can't remember where it is.    Suspect probably somewhere on the AH site as that had so much material there.

Is it this one maybe, its called Anglo-Dutch Empire 

  I think that was the one I remember at least.  Suspect that if that's it at its height its likely to have more colonial land as a unified N America on top of it is going to make it very, very powerful.

  Gods AH does look different.  I had totally forgotten about Thande!