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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 12:53:24 GMT
But in May-June 41 against a still officially neutral state you expect to be anally soon it looks totally counter-productive. There are many words to describe the Soviet Union in OTL 1941, but neutral is not one of them. Stalin has been supplying the raw materials that enabled the defeat of France and the Low Countries, the Battle of Britain & the Blitz. A modicum of payback would be nice, with a side-order of humiliation for Stalin, having to rescind a DOW when a greater threat materialises The USSR will be attacked by the UK in OOTB(ITF) though McCarthy will against it, obviously. [McCarthy would prefer to attack Spain, instead ] Unless I'm missing something The space between "an" and "ally" (snigger)  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 18, 2016 13:32:18 GMT
But in May-June 41 against a still officially neutral state you expect to be anally soon it looks totally counter-productive. There are many words to describe the Soviet Union in OTL 1941, but neutral is not one of them. Stalin has been supplying the raw materials that enabled the defeat of France and the Low Countries, the Battle of Britain & the Blitz. Whit Hitler and Stalin in one alliance i wonder who thinks they are in charge of the German-Soviet Alliance. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 18, 2016 13:46:53 GMT
kubocasket Presuming Hitler backstabs Stalin while the best units of the Red Army are fighting the British in say Iran and Afghanistan then I can't see Stalin openly helping a US enemy since they will still want every bit of Lend-Lease aid they can get. Espcially in the 1st couple of years after the attack during which they could still be fighting for their survuival. I meant Stalin backstabbing the Axis powers not the other way around; besides if the Axis are too busy fighting the Allies and hadn't taken the chance to wage war against the USSR then they would take advantage of the Nazi-Soviet Pact that would be reinforced by the Pike operation. Not that they'll forget about that plan, there's a saying that the enemy of my enemy is my friend and the Axis would do everything they can to weaken US will; that or just be content with an isolationist US. Ah your talking about a TL where while Britain attacks Baku you don't have a later German attack on Russia. I suspect this is unlikely but if this did occur then the USSR would be at war with Britain and probably mopping up the ME. True that if despite this the allies still win against Germany then yes I can see Stalin seeking to stab Hitler in the back. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 18, 2016 13:50:29 GMT
But in May-June 41 against a still officially neutral state you expect to be anally soon it looks totally counter-productive. There are many words to describe the Soviet Union in OTL 1941, but neutral is not one of them. Stalin has been supplying the raw materials that enabled the defeat of France and the Low Countries, the Battle of Britain & the Blitz. A modicum of payback would be nice, with a side-order of humiliation for Stalin, having to rescind a DOW when a greater threat materialises The USSR will be attacked by the UK in OOTB(ITF) though McCarthy will against it, obviously. [McCarthy would prefer to attack Spain, instead ] Unless I'm missing something The space between "an" and "ally" (snigger) Agree with the typo. With the other comment I did say " officially neutral". Which would look bad to the rest of the world and mean less co-operation between Britain and Russia due to greater mistrust. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 18, 2016 13:58:40 GMT
I meant Stalin backstabbing the Axis powers not the other way around; besides if the Axis are too busy fighting the Allies and hadn't taken the chance to wage war against the USSR then they would take advantage of the Nazi-Soviet Pact that would be reinforced by the Pike operation. Not that they'll forget about that plan, there's a saying that the enemy of my enemy is my friend and the Axis would do everything they can to weaken US will; that or just be content with an isolationist US. Ah your talking about a TL where while Britain attacks Baku you don't have a later German attack on Russia. I suspect this is unlikely but if this did occur then the USSR would be at war with Britain and probably mopping up the ME. True that if despite this the allies still win against Germany then yes I can see Stalin seeking to stab Hitler in the back. The Soviets Unlike the French and British do not have long range bombers they can use to strike French and British targets in the Middle East. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 18, 2016 14:08:24 GMT
Ah your talking about a TL where while Britain attacks Baku you don't have a later German attack on Russia. I suspect this is unlikely but if this did occur then the USSR would be at war with Britain and probably mopping up the ME. True that if despite this the allies still win against Germany then yes I can see Stalin seeking to stab Hitler in the back. The Soviets Unlike the French and British do not have long range bombers they can use to strike French and British targets in the Middle East. No but, especially if their trusting Hitler not to be stupid enough to attack them while both are at war with Britain, they have a hell of a lot more troops available to attack the ME than Britain has to defend it. Even with the terrain helping the defenders I could see the Soviets occupying most of the ME if they don't get attacked by Hitler fairly soon. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 18, 2016 14:10:18 GMT
The Soviets Unlike the French and British do not have long range bombers they can use to strike French and British targets in the Middle East. No but, especially if their trusting Hitler not to be stupid enough to attack them while both are at war with Britain, they have a hell of a lot more troops available to attack the ME than Britain has to defend it. Even with the terrain helping the defenders I could see the Soviets occupying most of the ME if they don't get attacked by Hitler fairly soon. Iran would join Germany both to safe it from being invaded by the Soviet Union and also to get some Iraqi territory. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2016 10:30:13 GMT
With the other comment I did say " officially neutral". Which would look bad to the rest of the world and mean less co-operation between Britain and Russia due to greater mistrust. Sounds like Britain is the beneficiary of that. Any attempt to intervene in the Middle East by the USSR, or an even more unlikely alliance with Japan, would be a disaster for Stalin, in the long run. "We have ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia!" |
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Post by kubocaskett on Aug 20, 2016 16:00:49 GMT
There's a book on this subject called "Operation Pike: Britain Versus the Soviet Union, 1939-1941" that probably like goes into a lot of depth but unfortunately it's quite expensive; at the cheapest it's like $145 in the US, even the kindle is expensive too!
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 20, 2016 16:24:21 GMT
There's a book on this subject called "Operation Pike: Britain Versus the Soviet Union, 1939-1941" that probably like goes into a lot of depth but unfortunately it's quite expensive; at the cheapest it's like $145 in the US, even the kindle is expensive too! You would assume that kindle books are cheap, even on a subjecht like Oparation Pike. |
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Post by kubocaskett on Aug 20, 2016 16:42:43 GMT
There's a book on this subject called "Operation Pike: Britain Versus the Soviet Union, 1939-1941" that probably like goes into a lot of depth but unfortunately it's quite expensive; at the cheapest it's like $145 in the US, even the kindle is expensive too! You would assume that kindle books are cheap, even on a subjecht like Oparation Pike. Well I did given that Kindle doesn't rely on printed materials; but anyway I just find it outrageous that someone has to spend that much money on something that should have cost a lot less to begin just to gain research from it. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 20, 2016 16:46:45 GMT
You would assume that kindle books are cheap, even on a subjecht like Oparation Pike. Well I did given that Kindle doesn't rely on printed materials; but anyway I just find it outrageous that someone has to spend that much money on something that should have cost a lot less to begin just to gain research from it. Well maybe the research cost a lot, operation pike is not widely known outside those who are interested, i also found these two articles by luck. |
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Post by kubocaskett on Aug 20, 2016 17:31:44 GMT
Well I did given that Kindle doesn't rely on printed materials; but anyway I just find it outrageous that someone has to spend that much money on something that should have cost a lot less to begin just to gain research from it. Well maybe the research cost a lot, operation pike is not widely known outside those who are interested, i also found these two articles by luck. That's pretty bizarre, I thought it would have been fairly know by now but I must be wrong. Still stuff like that book being expensive grinds my gears in that I personally don't believe that books have to be the expensive for the sake of research and spreading knowledge but I digress. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 20, 2016 17:37:00 GMT
Well maybe the research cost a lot, operation pike is not widely known outside those who are interested, i also found these two articles by luck. That's pretty bizarre, I thought it would have been fairly know by now but I must be wrong. Still stuff like that book being expensive grinds my gears in that I personally don't believe that books have to be the expensive for the sake of research and spreading knowledge but I digress. Well one reason why this operation is not widely know is that the allies had many operation some who where only on paper and some who did started that you might forget something like this one if you do not know where to look. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 11, 2021 15:04:51 GMT
Reviving a very old thread as it seems that documents relating to the Second World War, previously classified, have now revealed that the Soviet Union's western allies didn't want to help Moscow fight the Nazis at the start of the war – but were themselves planning their own airstrike on USSR assets (according to the YouTube clip seen below).
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