Operation Pike: Anglo-French plan to bomb the Soviet Union

[gillan1220]

Jul 11, 2021 15:04:51 GMT lordroel said:

Reviving a very old thread as it seems that documents relating to the Second World War, previously classified, have now revealed that the Soviet Union's western allies didn't want to help Moscow fight the Nazis at the start of the war – but were themselves planning their own airstrike on USSR assets (according to the YouTube clip seen below).

Not surprising. We have figures in the West such as General Patton who kept on saying that "We should have sided with the Germans" etc.
It appears that the West may have been interested in letting the Germans and the Soviets beat each other to the point none could recover in the decades to come.

[stevep]

Jul 11, 2021 15:40:37 GMT gillan1220 said:

Jul 11, 2021 15:04:51 GMT lordroel said:

Reviving a very old thread as it seems that documents relating to the Second World War, previously classified, have now revealed that the Soviet Union's western allies didn't want to help Moscow fight the Nazis at the start of the war – but were themselves planning their own airstrike on USSR assets (according to the YouTube clip seen below).

Not surprising. We have figures in the West such as General Patton who kept on saying that "We should have sided with the Germans" etc.
It appears that the West may have been interested in letting the Germans and the Soviets beat each other to the point none could recover in the decades to come.

  That was in large part because Stalin was seen as an, if not the most important ally to Hitler.  He had carved up the bulk of eastern Europe with Hitler and was supplying the Germans with a lot of raw materials to largely negate the allied blockade.  If you totally underestimated Soviet strength, which just about everybody did at the time, it had a lot of logic to it.  Fortunately nothing came of it but how close we came to such operations we will probably never know.

[TheRomanSlayer]

If Operation: Pike was launched, would it have resulted in the USSR becoming a de facto part of the Axis alliance? Because that would have frustrated Hitler's plans regarding the Soviet Union.

[575]

Jul 11, 2021 15:04:51 GMT lordroel said:

Reviving a very old thread as it seems that documents relating to the Second World War, previously classified, have now revealed that the Soviet Union's western allies didn't want to help Moscow fight the Nazis at the start of the war – but were themselves planning their own airstrike on USSR assets (according to the YouTube clip seen below).

Excuse me but there really is nothing new to this; of course that if the West had been able to foresee what would happen then they did wrong but they couldn't.

The Soviets were ready to aid Czechoslovakia in 1938 but neighter Poland nor Romania (or Czechoslovakia) really (and did right according to the Stalin map showed - so they had foresight) did like the idea of the Red Army on their soil!

Remember the Poles had to shove the Red Army out their door in 1922 and it didn't leave Mongolia and others till the fall of the Iron Curtain.

So what the Russian historians argue is "you should side with us against Germany cause we were the good guys". Well sorry for my POW - we just had another F-16 scramble towards Bornholm this friday - third time in a month.

[575]

Jul 11, 2021 17:37:11 GMT TheRomanSlayer said:

If Operation: Pike was launched, would it have resulted in the USSR becoming a de facto part of the Axis alliance? Because that would have frustrated Hitler's plans regarding the Soviet Union.

Would really depend upon the views of Hitler wouldn't it?

I for one don't think he would mind such and for a limited time reap the fruits of it. Of course having defeated France he may well still like to turn east as he wrote in 1923-4 and then the Wallies will have to decide upon allying to the Soviets - who'se talking turncoats..

[stevep]

Jul 11, 2021 17:37:11 GMT TheRomanSlayer said:

If Operation: Pike was launched, would it have resulted in the USSR becoming a de facto part of the Axis alliance? Because that would have frustrated Hitler's plans regarding the Soviet Union.

  Would agree with 575 that it would be a very unstable alliance, which would fall apart as soon as Hitler felt ready to strike east.  Unless the allied plans for attacks on Baku achieved the level of destruction that they hoped for, which does seem unlikely and would make the USSR very vulnerable to the German strike the Red Army is likely to overrun a lot of the ME region.

  It would then also make the following western-Soviet alliance even more unstable than OTL as well.

[lordroel]

Jul 12, 2021 15:09:27 GMT stevep said:

Jul 11, 2021 17:37:11 GMT TheRomanSlayer said:

If Operation: Pike was launched, would it have resulted in the USSR becoming a de facto part of the Axis alliance? Because that would have frustrated Hitler's plans regarding the Soviet Union.

  Would agree with 575 that it would be a very unstable alliance, which would fall apart as soon as Hitler felt ready to strike east.  Unless the allied plans for attacks on Baku achieved the level of destruction that they hoped for, which does seem unlikely and would make the USSR very vulnerable to the German strike the Red Army is likely to overrun a lot of the ME region.

Doubt the British and French had that in their planning, making the Soviet Union vulnerable to a German strike.

[stevep]

Jul 12, 2021 15:11:18 GMT lordroel said:

Jul 12, 2021 15:09:27 GMT stevep said:

  Would agree with 575 that it would be a very unstable alliance, which would fall apart as soon as Hitler felt ready to strike east.  Unless the allied plans for attacks on Baku achieved the level of destruction that they hoped for, which does seem unlikely and would make the USSR very vulnerable to the German strike the Red Army is likely to overrun a lot of the ME region.

Doubt the British and French had that in their planning, making the Soviet Union vulnerable to a German strike.

  The basis thing was that they knew most of the Soviet oil was produced at Baku, which is vulnerable to allied attack due to its location and that if they could seriously impact that it would force Stalin to cut oil supplies to Hitler.  As such depending on how effective such attacks were and how much the Soviets on a pretty much full war footing needed in terms of extra oil themselves there would be an impact on the Germans as well.

[lordroel]

Jul 12, 2021 15:19:25 GMT stevep said:

Jul 12, 2021 15:11:18 GMT lordroel said:

Doubt the British and French had that in their planning, making the Soviet Union vulnerable to a German strike.

  The basis thing was that they knew most of the Soviet oil was produced at Baku, which is vulnerable to allied attack due to its location and that if they could seriously impact that it would force Stalin to cut oil supplies to Hitler.  As such depending on how effective such attacks were and how much the Soviets on a pretty much full war footing needed in terms of extra oil themselves there would be an impact on the Germans as well.

So Germany does not need to ally with the Soviet Union, if the British and French start Operation Pike before Operation Barbarossa in June 1941, then the Germans simply wait when the Soviet Union and the British and French knowing it will weaken all 3 sides.

[lordroel]

Having some of my trolls do some more digging, found this article called: The Controversies of the Targets for Uncle Joe’s Falcons

On 31 December 1939, British General Butler went to Turkey to discuss military cooperation with the Turks against the USSR; the use of airfields and seaports by the British in Eastern Turkey was considered. On January 15, 1940, French Foreign Affairs Ministry’s general secretary Leger informed the US Ambassador to France W. Bullitt of Prime Minister Daladier’s suggestion to send a naval force to the Black Sea so that to blockade Soviet communication lines and conduct air raids against oil wells in Baku. “France won’t break diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union, nor will war be declared. France will destroy the Soviet Union by guns if required,” said Leger. On January 24, 1940, Britain’s Chief of General Staff General Ironside submitted his Memorandum entitled, “The Main Strategy for War” to the War Cabinet. According to his views, the only effective way for Britain to help Finland was attacking Russia from multiple directions; the most important would have been to attack Baku, which was an oil production area so that to cause a national crisis in Russia.

On February 3, 1940, French General Staff issued operational guidelines for General Jenaut, French air force commander in Syria, to start preparations for an aerial attack on Baku, “the outcome of the war will be decided in the Caucasus, not on the Western Front.” On 7 February 1940, the British War Cabinet discussed bombardment of the Soviet oilfields; they opined that “a successful operation could fundamentally disrupt the Soviet economy, inclusive of the agriculture.” The Joint Chiefs of Staff received instructions to draft an appropriate document to that effect. To attack Baku, the British deployed several brand-new Blenheim Mk.IV bomber squadrons to the Middle East.

On March 8, 1940, Britain’s Joint Chiefs of Staff submitted a report to the War Cabinet, “The Consequence of Military Operations Against Russia, in 1940”. The document stipulated for three main areas of operations against the Soviet Union: The North (Petsamo, Murmansk, and Archangelsk); The Far East, and The South, the latter one was given top priority. The report emphasized the most vulnerable targets in the Caucasus (Baku, Grozny, and Batumi). The Royal Navy should have been involved in air operations wherefore aircraft carriers would have been committed to bombing the Soviet oil refineries, oil storage facilities, and port installations in Batumi and Baku, in addition to the main attack on the Caucasus and which would have temporarily destroyed the Russian defenses.

PREPARATIONS FOR COUNTERATTACK

The British Air Force conducted a series of reconnaissance flight missions over the Soviet territory. A brand-new US-made Lockheed 12-A aircraft fitted with three high-resolution aerial photo-cameras covering 18.5-km width from 6-km altitude flew its missions from Habbania airfield near Bagdad. On March 30, 1940, Lockheed 12-A made several circles over Baku and nearby oilfields flying at 7-km altitude. After 4 days, they flew another reconnaissance mission over Poti and Batumi oil refineries where the flak artillery fired 34 76-mm rounds but missed the target. A formal protest was lodged with the Turkish Border Guards Commissar by the Soviet Border Guards. Those missions were flown after 12 March 1940, the date when Peace Agreement between Finland and the USSR had been signed. The Soviet spies informed Moscow from Britain about the Allied plans. A “warm welcome” was being prepared for the Allied Air Force in and around Baku. The air defense corps stationed in Baku consisted of 9 flak regiments, each had 100 85-mm and 76-mm guns, 12 37-mm automatic guns, 25 anti-aircraft machine guns, and 30 motor searchlights. Several hundred defensive air force aircraft were deployed to cover Baku. The Soviet Command began their counterattack preparations, in February 1940.

6 long-range bomber aviation regiments total of 350 DB-3 bomber aircraft were deployed: regiments ## 6, 42, and 83 were stationed to operate from the airfields in the Crimea, and another 3 regiments were committed to operating from the airfields around the Sevan Lake, Armenia. Most pilots (except for regiment # 83) flew their combat missions in Finland. In April 1940, the regiment commanders were ordered to prepare for combat missions accordingly. The navigators plotted their flight plans. The bomber crews flew their training sorties taking off from an airfield near Eupatoria to fly along the Bulgarian coast and further on along the Turkish coast towards hypothetical targets in Abkhazia; and then they would fly back home to Eupatoria along the same route. The first group squadrons were assigned to attack their British targets in Larnaka, Nicosia and Famagusta in Cyprus, and the Haifa base in Palestine. The French targets ordered to attack were in Syria. The second group squadrons were ordered to take off from Armenia to fly over Iran towards Iraq. In the vicinity of Baghdad, they were to split to attack their targets in Turkey and British bases in Iraq and Egypt. The Bomber Regiment # 21 was assigned the main mission: two squadrons were ordered to engage the British Navy stationed in Alexandria and another two squadrons were ordered to attack the Port Said targets. One squadron was ordered to bomb the Suez Canal gates in order to paralyze the British shipping. The French and British bases operated under peace-time-conditions throughout the first five months of 1940, and nobody would have thought about a potential enemy aerial attack.

[TheRomanSlayer]

The real tragedy of Operation: Pike actually being carried out is that Germany would be the biggest winner here. Although given that it is the Western Allies who are launching an attack on the USSR, would we see bigger Red Army defections into what is essentially an Allied-backed version of the Russian Liberation Army? Of course, the main advantage here is that Britain and France wouldn’t be abusing their Soviet POWs. A weakened USSR as a result of Operation Pike could result in a faster and potentially more successful Operation: Barbarossa, unless Hitler is offed and Goering or some random nook take power.

[lukedalton]

Regarding Operation Pike

1) yes the Soviet know before of the attack and were ready...naturally we are talking about 1940 Red armed forces so their capacity make the italian one look professional and the Air Force (AA included) are the worse of the batch, frankly are more a danger for themself than for the Anglo-French in case of counterattack; yes they were battle experienced but their performance on Spain and Finland was abysmall and the general reliability of their equipment not really good. Frankly i still put my money on the RAF and i hardly fear any loss.

2) Italy with the URSS on German side will hardly be involved in the war at his side, not only it will be very difficult for Benny justify a formal alliance with Uncle Joe (sure trade with him is ok as money was needed but not being officially allied) plus both Italy and the URSS covet a sphere of influence in the balkans and i doubt that Mussolini want to play third fiddle to Stalin. Same for Turkey, a formal alliance between Germany and URSS will throw Ankara on the entente embrace and same for Bucharest and Sofia

3) Russia will try to invade MO, enphasis on try, this is not the military giant and well oiled machine of 1945, this is the immediate post Winter War one with a lot of the lesson to digest and a list of problem long from Milan to Palermo. Their principal tank was the T-26 and many of them were not in fighiting condition.

4) URSS being an enemy mean that the nice manners are dropped and the various communist parties will be disbanded and people suspected of being a little too cozy with her will be arrested and the role of the URSS as middleman in buying material in the world market for Germany is over