Red Dawn 20+ AH.com archive

[lordroel]

From page 60

Matt Wiser

I talked to her earlier today, after the article came out, and hair-raising is right: they skirted Moscow's air defenses to hit the Rybinsk Dam near Cherepovets. Two aircraft on the mission, and hers was targeted on the hydro power plant itself. The second plane was targeted on the flood gates themselves. All eight GBU-15 EO bombs were on target, and not only was the hydro plant wrecked, but the four that blew open the flood gates cut loose a torrent of water downstream. Major flooding as a result, a number of rail and highway bridges washed out, you name it. They got out via Finland and Norway to a tanker East of Greenland.

How'd the FB-111 get over there? The SAC Varks were pretty busy over Cuba, down to Nicaragua and Mexico as well. Had to have had several refuelings on the way, with recovery in Turkey (the Turks were a "friendly neutral") or Israel. Well, given that we've got some radiation areas here...that kinda brought the war home to the Western USSR. Kansas City, Omaha, and the three ICBM sites (Minot, Grand Forks, and Ellsworth) are pretty much normal now, D.C.'s rebuilding is nearly finished, but the Manhattan-Newark area will be a tough job. I'm just wondering where all the contaminated soil got dumped. My guess would be Hanford in Washington state or Savannah River in South Carolina.

Mann: how's the book so far? She was on her 10th mission when shot down, but her backseater had forty-plus over Cuba (you know-experienced pilot/rookie WSO and vice-versa). One of the Cubans that may have been apprehended and she had numerous run-ins with was a guy the POWs in Hanoi called Fidel: and he was a psychopath. He attended to her, and all other female POWs at the Havana interrogation center, personally. This is a guy who in Vietnam tortured one POW to insanity-and the man later died in captivity. I do hope this piece of pond scum was one of those we caught after moving into Cuba: war crimes trials for two wars would be a pleasure to see on TV.

DD951

JN1 said: DD951: My friend in 15 Para was part of the force assigned to drop on Vancouver International Airport, along with II Squadron, RAF Regiment and the Canadian Airborne Regiment, so it’s possible that he got NGS from your ship. The British force involved in the retaking of Vancouver was not particularly big as the core of the British Army in Canada was the 1st (UK) Armoured Division, which the commander of 1st Canadian Army felt was not really suitable for FIBUA, though they did take part in the sweep around the city to the north. Our main force in that battle was 16th (Airborne) Division, which apart from the air drop of 5th AB Bde, fought as leg infantry (much to their disgust).
Remind me what ship was it you were on and what was its call-sign and I’ll ask him.

My ship was the destroyer Turner Joy (DD-951), call-sign BALLROOM. Spent most of the first year and a half of the war up around the San Juans and Vancouver, mostly doing NGFS as once on target, we could plop down about 60 5" shells a minute, and the ship was a little too big to do a lot of the interdiction and raiding work that naval operations in the BC theater involved, although we did get our share of that. The Battle of Vancouver was a pretty busy time- recall quite a few fire missions, as well as a massive attempt using Spetznaz and other light & special-ops forces to hit the allied rear through using a lot of small craft to try and get behind the lines- USN & RCN light forces had a field day with that one. Also took out a Whiskey who's captain must have figured he could do something if he could get at some of the ships supporting the battle off-shore.

BigWillyG

Anyone else on any of the Pegasus class hydrofoils? I was on USS Pegasus and spent most of the war in inlets on the East Coast going after Sov convoys heading to Cuba. They normally let the big ships and aircraft hit the escorts then let us and all the other small or converted craft hit the merchies. Normally worked that way but got into a missil and gun duel with a Cuban Tarantul off Savannah one night. Still not sure how we survived that.

JN1

On a completely different note anybody else think that Anthony E. Zuiker was quite brave setting the third of his CSI franchise in New York (or at least what's left of it)? The whole dead Manhattan issue hanging over everything makes the programme a whole lot darker than the other two, especially when compared to CSI:Miami.
I think making Gary Sinise's character a USMC vet of the war was a good move, as was having him lose his wife in the attack.

I think the best episode I've seen so far was one where the team had to cross the East River into Manhattan. It was really creepy seeing them in full NBC suits, brought back quite a few memories for me I must say.

OOC: Does anybody else have ideas of how the war might have effected popular entertainment?

Panzerfaust 150

Matt Wiser said: Mann: how's the book so far? She was on her 10th mission when shot down, but her backseater had forty-plus over Cuba (you know-experienced pilot/rookie WSO and vice-versa). One of the Cubans that may have been apprehended and she had numerous run-ins with was a guy the POWs in Hanoi called Fidel: and he was a psychopath. He attended to her, and all other female POWs at the Havana interrogation center, personally. This is a guy who in Vietnam tortured one POW to insanity-and the man later died in captivity. I do hope this piece of pond scum was one of those we caught after moving into Cuba: war crimes trials for two wars would be a pleasure to see on TV.

We did, he was one of the bastards Major Ray identified. She was trembling a bit after that one. That led to the "mother of all wet t-shirt contests" that I am still trying to explain to the wife...she saw it on YouTube a week ago with me trying to explain it away...:confused:

TheMann

BigWillyG said: Anyone else on any of the Pegasus class hydrofoils? I was on USS Pegasus and spent most of the war in inlets on the East Coast going after Sov convoys heading to Cuba. They normally let the big ships and aircraft hit the escorts then let us and all the other small or converted craft hit the merchies. Normally worked that way but got into a missil and gun duel with a Cuban Tarantul off Savannah one night. Still not sure how we survived that.

I watched Taurus and Aquila go after a convoy, with all of us in support and backed by a lot of other of other ships, from frigates to battleships. The Soviets couldn't get much past us.....

Matt Wiser

Glad to hear it: she never talked about this slime-bucket to me (or anyone else) but she did mention him in the book. I imagine that some of the former POWs from the POW camp near Hanoi called The Zoo (where the animals looked in at the people) in 1967-68 will be pleased, along with the ones this animal "interrogated" during the war. Who's handling the trials-her preference is for a military tribunal: with no lawyers grandstanding.

Colonel Moreau mentioned one other strike where a dam was the target. This was at Krasnoyarsk in Central Siberia. And this time, her plane definitely targeted the flood gates. This strike did flood the Trans-Siberian Railroad, and washed out a dozen miles of the rail line. And yes, it flooded the city itself as well. This one, she ain't too proud of, but as she said, it had to be done. But she e-mailed me the strike photos her Buff took...the plane overflew Krasnoyarsk itself, and the defenders were so surprised not a shot was fired, nor did any MiGs scramble. No other plane on the mission: solo sortie. The flood reached the city just after the B-52 overflew it.....Two days later, several B-1s visited rail yards east and west, blasting trains that were backed up because of the rail line being out of service. The Trans-Siberian was out of service in that area for a month, she said.

Nothing yet out of Dover AFB, though there's a lot of news media camped outside the base. Anyone seen the CNN report today? You'd think it was the President or SCOTUS Chief Justice who'd just died, with all the newsies outside the main gate at Dover. The Denver Post is saying that if it turns out to be Toni and Robert, they will lie in repose in the rotunda of the State Capitol for people to pay their respects. No word yet on where they'll be laid to rest, though.

DD951

BigWillyG said: ↑Anyone else on any of the Pegasus class hydrofoils? I was on USS Pegasus and spent most of the war in inlets on the East Coast going after Sov convoys heading to Cuba. They normally let the big ships and aircraft hit the escorts then let us and all the other small or converted craft hit the merchies. Normally worked that way but got into a missil and gun duel with a Cuban Tarantul off Savannah one night. Still not sure how we survived that.

The Boeing plant at Renton, WA built four more (Perseus, Phobos, Pleiades, and Poseidon) for service in the BC and Alaska theaters, but they were withdrawn because the amount of flotsam and jetsam, especially partially-submerged logs proved to be too much of a hazard, after the spectacular loss of the Pleiades in September, 1986, and the yard switched to a more conventional gun/missile boat design being built by a number of small local shipyards in Puget Sound.

Pleiades was one of a group of light forces moving to intercept a Soviet raiding force of Tarantuls, Osas, Nanuchkas, and Turyas, a few miles north of Orcas Island, and she was up on her foils at max speed on a very windy day, when she struck a partially-submerged log with her port foil while in a turn- she basically cartwheeled before coming down hard while inverted and sinking with the loss of all hands- think of a hydroplane blowover, like the accident that killed Bill Muncey in 1981.

The Board of Inquiry thought it was some sort of a freak accident unlikely to happen again, but the brass thought the waters too risky for the Pegasus-class and ordered the remaining 3 transferred elsewhere; 1 got shipped to Pearl and the other two to San Diego.

BigWillyG

I remember a little about that. No real details got to us on the East Coast but it was a shame we did good work and the others would have done just as well in the Pacific.

DD951

JN1 said: ↑I spoke to my mate and he distinctly remembers receiving NGFS from a ship with the callsign BALLROOM. You'll be glad to hear that you saved his bacon on more than a couple of occasions. After all Allied intel was slightly askew when it came to what the Soviets had garrisoning the airport; they thought it was held by lightly armed REMFs, when it turned out a Motor Rifle Regiment was holding it.

I remember that day quite well- very busy for us, as we were doing fire missions constantly thanks to the charlie-fox that resulted from that little intelligence failure, until we shot our magazines dry in a little over a couple hours, and it was a good thing we had just restocked our ammo right before going on the line that day- got a target, blasted it with a couple dozen rounds, and shifted to something else. Getting the necessary area coverage with only 3 5" barrels to work with was a bit tricky, but it worked out in the end. Anyway, glad to know our efforts did a lot of good that day.
Last edited: Oct 9, 2009

Matt Wiser

Guys, it's official: Toni has been ID'd through DNA. CNN had the news conference a few minutes ago. No word yet on the remains believed to be Robert's. I would imagine the forensics people at Dover are taking their time with what they have and doing this right. If they do have dental records, it should be enough, if there's no living relatives for DNA. Toni will be posthemously made a Sgt. (E-5), and Robert also, when he's ID'd.

Yeah, Ivan tried bullying his way through the Florida Straits-one of the lectures we got at the Air War College dealt with that. Things got so bad from Ivan's POV that he shifted his convoy route from the Florida Straits to the Windward Passage, then around Cuba to the Yucatan Channel. Where Atlantic Fleet's SSNs were often waiting.....Average attrition on a convoy there was about 20-25%. Lotsa wrecks down there for any deep-sea explorers to look over. One of the Kirovs (Kalinin) is there, just SE of the Caribbean entrance to Yucatan Channel. But no one's looked for her-yet. Then there were the mines planted by subs in the approaches to Vera Cruz and Tampico....Of course, not all of them have been found (or detonated).

Getting ready to crack the next (and next-to-last) Keegan Chapter: this deals with the Northern Theater, the end of the war in North America, and the beginnings of the Soviet breakup.

DD951

BigWillyG said: I remember a little about that. No real details got to us on the East Coast but it was a shame we did good work and the others would have done just as well in the Pacific.

Yeah, it was, and something of an over-reaction from a Navy establishment that didn't want them in the first place, but again, I'm not sure how much use the Pegasi would have been in the Pacific once the BC campaign was over, as once you get outside Puget Sound, the San Juans, and the Georgia Strait, the weather & seas get really nasty- after all, the PNW's where the Coast Guard does their foul-weather rescue training- so Alaska convoy runs would have been iffy if there was a lot of concern about their seaworthiness, while they didn't really have the legs to make most of the other convoy runs, such as Australia, or Japan. Although they did some good work in the brief time they were being used up here, and the east coast boats as well as the two in San Diego had quite an impressive record, the longer range and better seaworthiness of the Yakima-class PGMs that got built by all the little yards that normally built fishing boats were a better fit for the conditions in most of the Pacific operations.

After production at Renton was terminated, I heard that Boeing was going to try to open another production line somewhere in Georgia or South Carolina- know anything about how that turned out?

BigWillyG

I heard about that. Last I heard they decided Boeing should use the workers and materials for more aircraft and bigger ships while the small yards made coastal craft and attack boats.
We had some Yakima's with us and a half dozen other classes. Lots of Grand Banks cod boats with .50s and 20mm on them. I even saw a Canadian trawler with depth charges and a 40mm Bofors during the Cuban invasion, thing killed a Foxtrot with those ash cans although how they detected it I'll never know.
Subs got to be a big problem for us, we were just big enough to warrent a torp but we had no sonar or ASW waepons. Best defense was going full speed and hoping they couldn't track us. A lot of Coast Guard ships had the same problem with subs but they couldn't scoot like us. Saw a cutter about twice our size get cut clean in half by a torp. I still salute all the Coast Guardsman that went out in those.
Last edited: Oct 9, 2009

JN1

Sadly there has not been so much film and TV devoted to our part in the war. Hollywood has, perhaps understandably, not been too interested in non-American stories despite all the British actors over there.

The BBC has produced a drama-documentary about the Battle of the Baltic Exits and ITV produced a mini-series about a fictional RAF fighter squadron.
I have heard that Film Four will be funding a film about the British Army in Canada next year.

JN1

DD951 said: I remember that day quite well- very busy for us, as we were doing fire missions constantly thanks to the charlie-fox that resulted from that little intelligence failure, until we shot our magazines dry in a little over a couple hours, and it was a good thing we had just restocked our ammo right before going on the line that day- got a target, blasted it with a couple dozen rounds, and shifted to something else. Getting the necessary area coverage with only 3 5" barrels to work with was a bit tricky, but it worked out in the end. Anyway, glad to know our efforts did a lot of good that day.

It was a pretty bad day - II Squadron RAF Regiment was decimated, which was a real shame as it was an all regular unit. 15 Para and the CAR shot off most of their ammunition fighting that Soviet MRR, so they really needed that NGFS.
IIRC the USAF and Canadians lost quite a few C-130s keeping the force supplied over the next two days before it was relieved by 2nd Canadian Division. One Canadian C-130 crash-landed on the runway because its crew were so determined to deliver their supplies.

The intensity of the fighting is illustrated by the fact that three Victoria Crosses were awarded (all posthumously), one of which was the Canadian medal.

Panzerfaust 150

Location:Washington DC...We HAD a football team, now it's a
I forgot to do the rundown on Thursday and Friday's articles. Thursday they talked about SAC's missions with regards to GOLDEN SPIKE, which was a concerted effort against the Trans-Siberian and the BAM throughout 1986 to the end of the war. It got costly as the PVO had heavy defenses along both railways due to the proximity to their ICBM fields.

Friday was simply: Final Missions, it was a run down of the cost, and some of the MoH citations for SAC members during the war. Seems there was four. None of them were publicized for obvious reasons, but they were talked about for the first time in many cases. The guy who used his damaged B-52 to draw off some interceptors from a 3-ship raid against Irkut was something..hard to believe he made it back afterwards considering he had three engines out and most of the crew dead or wounded.
Last edited: Oct 9, 2009

[lordroel]

From page 61

Matt Wiser

Thanks for the wrap-up on SAC, Panzerfaust. Colonel Moreau called today: she told me about the Irkutsk mission-she was on it (aircraft commander-only her second mission with her own Buff). Everybody thought that guy who drew off the Su-15s was toast. They were at Goose Bay in Labrador, having landed and were debriefing, when his shot-up Buff came in and belly landed. The copilot and EWO were the only other ones alive: the gunner was wounded, and both the nav and radar nav (bombardier) were dead. The plane never flew again. But the other three Buffs all laid down their bombs: two hit the rail yard with 51 750-pounders, and the other Buff struck the nearby oil refinery....lotsa explosions there. Actually, getting in wasn't as tricky as getting out, if you flew via what was left of China. The Chinese fired a few of their own nukes before the SS-17s and -19s used them as a practice range, and there were a number of gaps in Soviet radar coverage along their southern border. Staging was out of Taiwan in most cases, but some went via Hong Kong. The B-1s were much more survivable, and often went in very, very low. But if you went in via the Northern Route, over the Pole, you had a decent chance of not getting in, or aborting due to heavy enemy activity. SAC never blamed anyone for aborting due to heavy opposition if you flew over the Pole, especially in the early days. Even LeMay, rest his soul, advised CINC-SAC not to blame anyone for aborting: after all, the aircraft commander is the one on scene and making the call.

Well, it's official: Robert has now been ID'd. CNN had it around noon Mountain time, and it was pretty much expected. Their final trip will be via C-17 to Lowry AFB in Denver, with both Toni and Robert lying in repose at the State Capitol for two days. Final burial will be outside Calumet next week. Sen. Mason is acting as NOK for Robert, as efforts to find living relatives have not been successful. Even the FBI got involved, but came up with no one living. All flags in Colorado will be at half-staff until after the funeral, according to the Denver Post. Green Berets from the 5th SFG at Fort Carson will be the pallbearers for both. Trekchu: you'd better contact either the Senator's office, or HQ 5th SFG at Fort Carson if you guys want to be involved in the ceremony. The location for the funeral itself hasn't been released, but the actual Partisan Rock itself is a possibility.

Hollyweird does its own thing: first the Scott brothers' flick tentatively titled Revenge of the Phantom, about my squadron, then Showtime comes with a biopic based on Major Kelly Ann Ray's POW experience in Cuba (no title yet), and now Dogfights is coming to talk about some of the air-to-air and air-to-ground stuff the F-4s did during the war; and some of the latter was pretty crazy, given the folks doing the flying. Kara Sackhoff and her flight members were not the only ones whose sanity was questioned when they got out of the cockpit after a mission, let's put it that way. I'm sure The Mann did some crazy things in a Phantom before making the Hornet transition...didn't you? There were plenty of guys and gals in F-4s doing stuff that would've given the guys at McAir pause....

JN1

Has anyone else heard the story of the European 'defections' to the UK? For example I remember reading a headline story in 'The Scotsman' one morning announcing that six German Navy (Marinefleiger) Tornados and an Atlantic MPA had landed at 'an RAF air base somewhere in Northern England' (actually RAF Leeming). They had apparently been on exercise over the North Sea when they decided to head for the UK rather than back to West Germany.

I also seem to remember some Dutch and Belgian F-16s and some French aircraft making the hop over to Britain. Anybody heard any more?

The Euros at first called them deserters, but they all got pardons after the changes of government.

DD951

JN1 said: It was a pretty bad day - II Squadron RAF Regiment was decimated, which was a real shame as it was an all regular unit. 15 Para and the CAR shot off most of their ammunition fighting that Soviet MRR, so they really needed that NGFS.
IIRC the USAF and Canadians lost quite a few C-130s keeping the force supplied over the next two days before it was relieved by 2nd Canadian Division. One Canadian C-130 crash-landed on the runway because its crew were so determined to deliver their supplies.

The intensity of the fighting is illustrated by the fact that three Victoria Crosses were awarded (all posthumously), one of which was the Canadian medal.
I figured it was pretty intense with the constant calls for fire support, the frantic calls for anything capable of NGFS to get to Vancouver at best possible speed, all the CAS missions overhead, and the efforts to get more 3" and 5" shells there by whatever means possible, but I didn't know things were quite that bad. My hat's off to everyone who survived that.

TheMann

DD951 said: I figured it was pretty intense with the constant calls for fire support, the frantic calls for anything capable of NGFS to get to Vancouver at best possible speed, all the CAS missions overhead, and the efforts to get more 3" and 5" shells there by whatever means possible, but I didn't know things were quite that bad. My hat's off to everyone who survived that.

Some of the B-52s rolling out of Renton during the midparts of the war were being entered into service as soon as they left the plant, and made their first flights with full bomb loads. Yeah, Vancouver got insane. I know some commercial freighters got called out to do supply runs, too.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: Well, it's official: Robert has now been ID'd. CNN had it around noon Mountain time, and it was pretty much expected. Their final trip will be via C-17 to Lowry AFB in Denver, with both Toni and Robert lying in repose at the State Capitol for two days. Final burial will be outside Calumet next week. Sen. Mason is acting as NOK for Robert, as efforts to find living relatives have not been successful. Even the FBI got involved, but came up with no one living. All flags in Colorado will be at half-staff until after the funeral, according to the Denver Post. Green Berets from the 5th SFG at Fort Carson will be the pallbearers for both. Trekchu: you'd better contact either the Senator's office, or HQ 5th SFG at Fort Carson if you guys want to be involved in the ceremony. The location for the funeral itself hasn't been released, but the actual Partisan Rock itself is a possibility.

Well deserved, if you ask me. The guys behind the lines deserve all the accolades they could get, considering what they were up against. Rest in peace, guys, you did your parts, and a spot in Valhalla awaits.

Matt Wiser said: Hollyweird does its own thing: first the Scott brothers' flick tentatively titled Revenge of the Phantom, about my squadron, then Showtime comes with a biopic based on Major Kelly Ann Ray's POW experience in Cuba (no title yet), and now Dogfights is coming to talk about some of the air-to-air and air-to-ground stuff the F-4s did during the war; and some of the latter was pretty crazy, given the folks doing the flying. Kara Sackhoff and her flight members were not the only ones whose sanity was questioned when they got out of the cockpit after a mission, let's put it that way. I'm sure The Mann did some crazy things in a Phantom before making the Hornet transition...didn't you? There were plenty of guys and gals in F-4s doing stuff that would've given the guys at McAir pause....

I did some crazy shit in Phantoms, alright. Our usual attack plan against an Armed Soviet Convoy was to go in real low, like fifty feet above the water if that much. Not easy to do in a fully-loaded F-4, as I'm sure Matt could tell you. When I sunk that Rogov, it was from hitting his ass with a Mark 84, flying at near Mach 1 at maybe a hundred feet off the water. Bastard peppered the back of my airplane with 30mm rounds for that, but I got the thing home and on the ground, and that Mark 84 went right into foredeck and blasted much of the front end of the bow off. Bet that thing sank like a brick.

Us Phantom guys were faced sometimes with equal or superior adversaries, which meant we have to really haul ass. Against those guys, we really had to haul ass. Against a MiG-23 or MiG-25, we could bust his chops fairly easily. Against a MiG-29 or a Su-27, those sometimes got a little difficult, especially the latter - we tried to avoid Flankers as much as possible, in anything. When Eagles turned up on the scene, however, even the Flankers ran like hell. Tomcats usually scared the piss out of them, too.

Matt Wiser

How's reading Major Ray's book going so far, Mann? She almost went on the famous Open Water escape, but had a badly sprained ankle while on a work detail, so she covered for the two who did go. When the Cubans found out her role, they were not pleased, to say the least. She got a major roughing-up before the Cubans sent her to the Isle of Pines and that punishment prison. Two years plus in solitary, with all the pain and fear that went along with it, was the result. I talked to her this weekend (some ID ANG guys are running a field survival exercise near Pocatello, and she had to give one of the Hummers a speeding ticket-she's a deputy sheriff when she's not driving F-15Es, remember) and Kelly Ann did say that she's looking forward to the trials and a chance to confront those scum-suckers in the dock.

The funeral's on Thursday, fellas. The AF hasn't decided if it wants to send a delegation, but given that an AF Lt. Col. ran with the Wolverines for a while, it's likely. Probably CINC-NORAD might show to represent the Air Force. The C-17 leaves Dover tomorrow for Lowry and the procession to the State Capitol. If there's a flyby during the funeral, it'll likely be the 49th TFW and their F-22s (Col. Tanner was in the 9th TFS, 49th TFW, so it'd be the 49th's way of saying "thank you").

Just started Keegan again: he points out that the first rumblings of revolt begain in 1988 in both the Caucusus and in Central Asia. Strikes at first, takeovers of some collective farms, but it was Poland's about-face and unilateral declaration of neutrality that sparked the Warsaw Pact to begin quitting the war. The Czechs followed, soon followed by the Hungarians and Romanians (who decided to toss out Caucescu at the same time in a bloody revolt). The East German Army, which had been the most loyal in the Pact, announced that no more East German units would be headed to North America, and that was followed by the demonstrations in Lepizig and Dresden that began the death knell for the East German regime. When the East German police began firing on demonstators, the East German Army came in on the side of the people, and turned their tanks and guns on the police. GSFG, though at half strength due to commitments in North America, rolled out of its barracks to intervene, and the Bundeswehr seized the opportunity to attack, now that the previous government's neutralist (read: pro-Soviet) policies had been discarded along with the government itself. GSFG never had a chance, and with both West German and British forces moving in, the outcome was never in doubt. Honecker and his cronies fled to Moscow (where some still remain), and formal German reunification was proclaimed at the same time BORDER FURY kicked off in Texas. And while that was going on, outright civil war began in all five Central Asian Republics, starting in Uzbekistan, but soon spread like wildfire all over the five 'stans. At first, rebel bands were poorly armed and led, but when several Soviet divisions raised from the 'stans and training for deployment to North America mutinied and joined the revolts, the rebels benefited from trained leaders (some Kazakh and Uzbek officers who had been in North America at battalion level and below), good equipment fresh from the factories, and both Nationalist and Islamic Zeal, the revolts began spreading all over the Central Asian and Turkestan MDs. And further east, to Siberia (today's Far Eastern Republic).

I got a TV movie being made about the Marine fliers in the war (by Showtime, too ), with me being played by Lucas Black. Not sure how they'll get Lucas' southern accent away (I'm from Seattle, after all , but I hope its good. I hope they include that little takedown of the Rogov. Billion-dollar warship dropped by an older airplane and a bomb that might have cost $3,000.

DD951

TheMann said: Some of the B-52s rolling out of Renton during the midparts of the war were being entered into service as soon as they left the plant, and made their first flights with full bomb loads. Yeah, Vancouver got insane. I know some commercial freighters got called out to do supply runs, too.

Yeah, saw some of those, and the lack of testing caused a few losses- one suffered a total power & engine failure just after dropping its load, and had to ditch right next to us, just as we were coming off the gunline to replenish our ammo.

Some of the stuff I've read over the last few pages, such as all the finds in Cuba and recovering the bodies of those two Wolverines has got me thinking- kind of sobering that even 20 years later, we're still recovering our dead and finding scumbags who have yet to face justice for their crimes. A big thank you to everyone who's involved in that

Matt Wiser

Never did run into Su-27s, though we were told "If you pick one up, get somewhere else-fast, if not sooner." Sound advice in an F-4, A-4, A-6, or A-7. Got two MiG-29s, though, and my MiG-25 kill was a lucky one: bouncing one on takeoff. Given the crappy rear visiblity the Foxbat has, the Libyan (it was one of their "volunteers") never even saw me behind him, and two AIM-9s later....he's down. Those two Tumansky engines had a big IR signature, and the Sidewinders didn't take long to lock on and give me a good tone. Of 15 kills, 9 were AIM-9, three were AIM-7, two were 20-mm, and one was AIM-9/20-mm. And one of the AIM-7 kills was entirely BVR (the Il-20 ELINT bird). I do remember one VMA-211 A-4 driver who got jumped by a MiG-29, though. He just turned inside the MiG, forced an overshoot, and sprayed the Fulcrum with 20-mm. Splash one...

Yeah, it's been a long time coming, but those who thought being in Havana meant escaping justice now are going to face justice. Hopefully it'll be military justice in a tribunal, instead of Federal Court and instant circus with grandstanding defense lawyers.

Remember the CSI: Miami episode in Season I, where a Cuban refugee got tortured and murdered? Horatio found out the man had been a DGI agent assigned to "pacification" in Texas and Oklahoma, and Horatio assumed that either a former guerilla or someone trapped behind the lines had killed him. Turned out the DGI fella was offed by the son of a refugee whom the man had tortured back in Cuba during the '90s.....

Matt Wiser

Glad you're enjoying the book: though when I read it, there were a couple of instances where I had to make sure I held onto my lunch. Those first 36 hours in that Havana Interrogation Center was one of those....It was practically Room 18 at the Hanoi Hilton transplanted to Havana; a couple of former POWs in Hanoi are among the reviewers of the book when it first came out, and it reminded them of that. Then the "punishment" for helping in the escape and covering for it later....When she was transferred from the Isle of Pines to her final POW prison, she thought it was over. Still had six months to go before the blockade caused Fidel to decide that the armistice applied to him, too, and the POWs should be released.

We don't have a reserve weekend at Hill until after the funeral, but I'll be watching from the O-Club at Mountain Home, with a lot of other people from the base. Lisa scheduled her flight time so that she has an early-morning hop before, and a late afternoon one after, so she can watch (one of the benefits of being Wing CO).

I see you're enjoying something other than the F-22..We tangle with the 388th's Vipers all the time. And Lisa's wing, the 366th, does as well. It's always a pleasure for the 419th to kick the Vipers around, as they don't like us reservists, and we think the active duty guys can be a bunch of prima donnas at times, even though half of the 388th's F-16 drivers have less flight time than the most junior pilots in 419-the minimum to join is 2,500 hours, but the most junior Strike Eagle pilot had 3,000 when she joined the outfit. We've got 1/3 of the pilots and WSOs being combat veterans, more flight time put together than they do, and they think they're better than us? 419's proved them wrong time and again.

DD951

Matt Wiser said: Yeah, it's been a long time coming, but those who thought being in Havana meant escaping justice now are going to face justice. Hopefully it'll be military justice in a tribunal, instead of Federal Court and instant circus with grandstanding defense lawyers.

Yeah, grandstanding leftie defense lawyers can be a real PITA to deal with, something that I've had the distinct displeasure of experiencing.

After I left active duty in, March 1991, I spent about a year back at UW finishing my degree, before getting called back to active duty to testify at some of the Las Vegas war crimes trials, which took up the better part of a year, but worth every second of that. After that, I went to law school, got my JD, and after passing the bar, went to work for the King County Prosecutor's Office for five years, before signing on with the U.S. Attorney's Office in Seattle.

Now, to get to the point of this, in 1998, my 2nd year at KCPO, King County Sherrif's Department arrested four scumbags who were cooking meth in the forest near Snoqualmie Falls, and while searching their cabin afterwards, found evidence that they were the survivors of a particullarly nasty band of auxillaries that had been responsible for a number of ambushes, arsons, robberies, murders, and other terroristic acts all throughout the Puget Sound, the worst being the bombings of an elementary school in West Seattle and at Harborview Medical Center in March, 1987.

For whatever reason, the Federal authorities left the prosecution to us, and I was assigned as second chair for the trial. We ended up charging them with probably at least half of the stuff in the book. Some left-wing nutjob lawyer named McGinn volunteered to defend them, and he tried to turn things into a circus. He tried to raise defenses of justification because they were 'freedom fighters' and 'soliders' who shouldn't be tried in a civil court, and it took a lot of work with pretrial motions getting that BS excluded, but even then, they kept trying to raising it during their trial to the point where afterwards, their lawyer was the subject of a disciplinary complaint with the bar association, and got suspended for 18 months due to repeated, egregious misconduct at trial. Still, it it had just be devestating to their egos to be treated as close as to common criminals as their circumstances would allow. (It was also really frustrating making the same handful of objections time after time to just about everything the defense said, despite the judge overruling most of them.) The trial took 14 months, but in the end, they got convicted on all counts and were sentenced to death. The scumbags finally exhausted their appeals a couple years ago, and finally got to go on their hot dates with ropes at the Walla Walla State Penitentiary.

As for their lawyer, soon after he got suspended, one of the investigative reporters for the Seattle PI ran an interesting story on his connections with various disloyal elements during the war, and a couple days later, he decided to take an 'extended vacation' in Switzerland, where I understand he remains to this day.

All in all, even though seeing that justice was served by sending those SOBs got what was coming to them was one of my most satisfying experiences not having to do with my personal life, it was also one of the most frustrating due to the sheer volume of grandstanding and BS that I had to put up with.

JN1


DD951 said: I figured it was pretty intense with the constant calls for fire support, the frantic calls for anything capable of NGFS to get to Vancouver at best possible speed, all the CAS missions overhead, and the efforts to get more 3" and 5" shells there by whatever means possible, but I didn't know things were quite that bad. My hat's off to everyone who survived that.

It turned into almost a mini-Market Garden. My friend hates to think what might have happened if 2nd Canadian Division hadn't fought its way through to relieve them.
Seeing the first Chieftain tanks of The Royal Canadian Hussars (Montreal) fighting their way through a screen of T-72s is something he still talks about.

Btw by this time in the war the Royal Canadian Armoured Corps regiments were using a mixture of British Chieftains and Challengers and American M60s and M1s, with only a relatively small number of Leopard 1s left. A mixture of losses to enemy action and the difficulty of getting spares from West Germany had seen the Leo 1s decline in numbers significantly.

DD951

JN1 said: has anyone else heard the story of the European 'defections' to the UK? For example I remember reading a headline story in 'The Scotsman' one morning announcing that six German Navy (Marinefleiger) Tornados and an Atlantic MPA had landed at 'an RAF air base somewhere in Northern England' (actually RAF Leeming). They had apparently been on exercise over the North Sea when they decided to head for the UK rather than back to West Germany.

I also seem to remember some Dutch and Belgian F-16s and some French aircraft making the hop over to Britain. Anybody heard any more?

The Euros at first called them deserters, but they all got pardons after the changes of government.
Haven't really heard anything about the aircraft, but there were a few ships that were doing stuff their governments probably didn't approve at the time- I recall seeing the West German frigate Emden screening some of the supply and other support ships off Vancouver, and the destroyer Rommel (one of the modified Adams-class DDGs they used) on a couple Austraila and Alaska convoy runs. It'd be kind of interesting to find out how they got halfway across the world to conduct operations in the Pacific at the time.

trekchu

DD951 said: Haven't really heard anything about the aircraft, but there were a few ships that were doing stuff their governments probably didn't approve at the time- I recall seeing the West German frigate Emden screening some of the supply and other support ships off Vancouver, and the destroyer Rommel (one of the modified Adams-class DDGs they used) on a couple Austraila and Alaska convoy runs. It'd be kind of interesting to find out how they got halfway across the world to conduct operations in the Pacific at the time.

When I was in Germany with the wife a few years back, I visited the Rommel in Kiel ( they preserved her as part of the German World War III Museum ) and happened to run across the guy who was her XO back in the day. He said that the neutralist Government never fully trusted the German military ( for good reason as it turned out, even though the motivations were different from the ones the Greens expected ) and was sending the largest warship the Gerries had at the time away on a 'good will' mission in south America. When the baloon went up they had just traversed the Panama Canal and they quickly decided to head up to the US, leaving those that refused to fight on a liveboat in the middle of the last lock.

sloreck

Matt:
The reserve/active thing never changes. When the war started I was called up as Bn surgeon 4/14 (USMC arty, s/p 155mm). Some active guys we supported (USMC or Army) were a little nervous at first about calling in fire it if was close - but our gun crews had worked together for years, and could put a round through the toilet seat in an outhouse. Also, because of where I trained (Charity N.O., shock trauma, etc) I had more experience with penetrating trauma than almost any active duty doc. Unfortunately, we all got very very experienced very quickly. Before I retired, if any docs in my units complained about reserve docs or corpsmen I told them (a) I was a reservist who stayed active after the war, and (b) before they bitched look at the reservist in something other than cammies and then say something when you've checked out their ribbons.

DD951:
Good on you for getting those swine what they deserved. I have to wonder what their lawyer was thinking, if they went in front of a military court they would have been convicted and executed even faster as their "soldierly" activities all violated law of war. I had to give evidence after the war on medical forensics of what we found when I was with 1st FSSG. It broke my heart to detail what had been done to people when their families were in the courtroom. I imagine if we ever get our hands on any surviving senior NK folks, I'll be called of the retired list again to testify about what we found in Guam - the mass grave of dependents on the grounds of Andersen AFB for example.

Of all the things I did during the war, the hardest was treating captured auxiliaries who were wounded. Some of the low level ones had been press-ganged or joined to get food, but the higher ups (and I mean NCO & up) were serious. I remember working to save the life of one auxiliary officer with commissar insignia. We saved him, because that's what we (the medical types) do, but we were all sick about it. However, we were pleased when we heard that 10 month later he was executed by hanging after court-martial.

Matt Wiser

At least there's not too many lefties hanging around; just the hint of possible collaboration is enough to get someone fired, or hounded so bad by picketing vets, ex-guerillas, and people who were in occupied territory that they pack up and leave town, if not the country. College professors have had a nasty habit of finding out that past "auxiliary service" still means a lot, especially when students find out the prof is apologizing for the ComBloc in class! I imagine you've had such things up in the Pacific NW, 951? When I taught AFROTC at UCLA, there were a couple of leftie professors and a dozen or so students who protested on Victory Day, Resistance Day, Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, etc, and they were the most unpopular people on campus. This was four or five years after the war, when I had just gotten promoted to Lt. Col., and I told one of them that he was lucky the war was over, otherwise, he'd probably have been taken out and lynched. (and there were quite a few people there who wanted to do just that: a few ex-guerillas who'd moved to California to start over and take advantage of the benefits Congress voted for guerillas-GI Bill, Vets' benefits, VA hospital access, etc., some vets who'd fought in places like Colorado, New Mexico, Texas, or the Pacific NW, you name it. How the campus PD kept order I don't know) The Governor of CA called for their firing, L.A.'s mayor echoed that, their homes were splashed with movie blood, tires slashed, you name it. Both left before the semester was up, and went to Mexico City, and one later wound up in Havana, making radio broadcasts into the U.S. from Cuba. That piece of pond scum is now in a Federal lockup in Miami, as he was caught in Havana when the Marines landed. His fellow leftie is still in Mexico City. Someday, though....The one in jail is probably wishing he'd stayed in New Zealand, as that's where he was the whole war. The Aussies banned him from entering Australia, the Kiwis had him under surveillance, and the man was a notorious apologist for the ComBloc down there.

You could tell who in the auxiliaries was a true believer and the ones who'd been either press-ganged or joined just to get more food for their families. The latter happily denounced the officers, NCOs, and commissars to the MPs and military intelligence at the EPW compounds. Not to mention the fact that the officers and commissars were much better clothed and fed than the rank and file. Didn't Panzerfaust mention a while back that some of the hard-line members fought amongst themselves in the EPW compounds?

Did anyone see the ceremony at Lowry AFB today when the C-17 landed, along with the motorcade to the State Capitol in Denver? Very impressive, with folks waving flags as the hearses went by, vets saluting, and at the Capitol, Sen. Mason getting out of her limo and shaking hands with the crowd to thank them, the honor guard from the Colorado National Guard, etc. The rotunda opens up tomorrow at 8:00 AM for public visitation.

[lordroel]

From page 62

DD951

trekchu said: When I was in Germany with the wife a few years back, I visited the Rommel in Kiel ( they preserved her as part of the German World War III Museum ) and happened to run across the guy who was her XO back in the day. He said that the neutralist Government never fully trusted the German military ( for good reason as it turned out, even though the motivations were different from the ones the Greens expected ) and was sending the largest warship the Gerries had at the time away on a 'good will' mission in south America. When the baloon went up they had just traversed the Panama Canal and they quickly decided to head up to the US, leaving those that refused to fight on a liveboat in the middle of the last lock.

Thanks for the info- good to see that our comrades in NATO were willing to honor their committments at such personal risk to themselves, even if their governments at the time weren't. Also led to a moment with a bit of historic irony- seeing the Emden and HMAS Sydney working together to successfully prosecute a Charlie I that tried going after an Alaska convoy.

Matt Wiser said: At least there's not too many lefties hanging around; just the hint of possible collaboration is enough to get someone fired, or hounded so bad by picketing vets, ex-guerillas, and people who were in occupied territory that they pack up and leave town, if not the country. College professors have had a nasty habit of finding out that past "auxiliary service" still means a lot, especially when students find out the prof is apologizing for the ComBloc in class! I imagine you've had such things up in the Pacific NW, 951? When I taught AFROTC at UCLA, there were a couple of leftie professors and a dozen or so students who protested on Victory Day, Resistance Day, Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, etc, and they were the most unpopular people on campus. This was four or five years after the war, when I had just gotten promoted to Lt. Col., and I told one of them that he was lucky the war was over, otherwise, he'd probably have been taken out and lynched. (and there were quite a few people there who wanted to do just that: a few ex-guerillas who'd moved to California to start over and take advantage of the benefits Congress voted for guerillas-GI Bill, Vets' benefits, VA hospital access, etc., some vets who'd fought in places like Colorado, New Mexico, Texas, or the Pacific NW, you name it. How the campus PD kept order I don't know) The Governor of CA called for their firing, L.A.'s mayor echoed that, their homes were splashed with movie blood, tires slashed, you name it. Both left before the semester was up, and went to Mexico City, and one later wound up in Havana, making radio broadcasts into the U.S. from Cuba. That piece of pond scum is now in a Federal lockup in Miami, as he was caught in Havana when the Marines landed. His fellow leftie is still in Mexico City. Someday, though....The one in jail is probably wishing he'd stayed in New Zealand, as that's where he was the whole war. The Aussies banned him from entering Australia, the Kiwis had him under surveillance, and the man was a notorious apologist for the ComBloc down there.

You could tell who in the auxiliaries was a true believer and the ones who'd been either press-ganged or joined just to get more food for their families. The latter happily denounced the officers, NCOs, and commissars to the MPs and military intelligence at the EPW compounds. Not to mention the fact that the officers and commissars were much better clothed and fed than the rank and file. Didn't Panzerfaust mention a while back that some of the hard-line members fought amongst themselves in the EPW compounds?

Did anyone see the ceremony at Lowry AFB today when the C-17 landed, along with the motorcade to the State Capitol in Denver? Very impressive, with folks waving flags as the hearses went by, vets saluting, and at the Capitol, Sen. Mason getting out of her limo and shaking hands with the crowd to thank them, the honor guard from the Colorado National Guard, etc. The rotunda opens up tomorrow at 8:00 AM for public visitation.
Saw a bunch of that stuff up here in Seattle for about a half-dozen years after the war ended. All the misdemeanor assault, unlawful assembely, and disorderly conduct charges that the protesters seemed to rack up from the resulting disturbances was some good training for new prosecutors. However, Evergreen State College was a real hotbed of that stuff, combined with an alarmingly high percentage of students, faculty, and alumni that turned up in auxillary units or were engaged in other subversive activity made it a priority target. After several campus buildings were burned in arsons that remained unsolved to this day, the Legislature decided to close the school in 1996.

Caught the ceremony at Lowry on MSBNC during my lunch break today- impressive and sobering. I think they said that they're going to have continual coverage of the visitation and viewing during their news programming through some sort of picture-in-picture setup. Wouldn't be surprised if the other news networks did the same.

Matt Wiser

Any of 'em run afoul of the FBI during the war? After all, the Bureau was in charge of wartime counterintelligence and counterterrorism/sabotage. Unless an area was declared a military zone (like the unoccupied areas of Colorado, Wyoming, or New Mexico, for example), the normal civilian authority was in charge. In a military zone, though, UCMJ applied to both the military and civilians.

Wasn't the cruiser Des Moines busy there as well? ISTR my Air War College notes saying that she was busy in the Pacific NW (she was en route to Seattle when the failed amphib was wiped out), and shuttled via the Canal after things were settled in Panama to the Caribbean: she was busy with NGFS for GULF HAMMER, and the bombardments of Corpus Christi and Brownsville, and bombarded several targets on the Mexican Gulf Coast as well.

I saw the ceremony on CNN. They had the best job of all three news networks. Sen. Mason will give the eulogy at the funeral on Thursday.

Okay, fellas, here's the rest of the Keegan chapter: While the Soviet Union was losing control over the Warsaw Pact, and even within its own house in Central Asia, the U.S. and Allied forces began moving forces north to the Alaska-Canada Theater, to put pressure on Soviet forces in Canada and Alaska, and force the Soviet North American TVD Commander to accept a cease-fire, given that the U.S. Pacific Fleet was interdicting convoys bound for Alaska and inflicting "unacceptable" attrition. Even before the successful conclusion of BORDER FURY, forces began displacing from Texas and moving north. XV Corps from Third Army, XX Corps from Fifth Army, and both II Corps and the ROK Expeditionary Corps from Sixth Army were redeployed north, though the ROKs didn't move until after Brownsville's surrender. In addition, one division from each corps not redeployed was also sent north, along with USAF, Marine, and shore-based Navy air assets. The U.S. First and Eighth Armies (the latter HQ redeployed from South Korea), and the Canadian First Army were preparing for an operation that wasn't expected to begin until May of 1990, but the more pressure put on the Soviets before winter, the better. What happened, though, was completely unexpected.

Word of the surrender in Brownsville had reached the North American TVD HQ in Anchorage on 6 October, and Marshal Yuri Kribov (the third man to hold the post since the war began) was having doubts about being able to successfully hold his positions come spring. With revolts in Central Asia spreading into Siberia, the naval situation in the North Pacific fast becoming critical, and not only was his supply situation going from bad to worse, he had a vibrant, some would call exuberant, guerilla movement in the territories he controlled (and some would call control a nominal term). With continued exhortations from Moscow to not only hold his positions, but in the spring, push through the American-Canadian defenses to the U.S. border and beyond, "to bring about the final victory of socialism", the Marshal quietly decided that he'd had enough. He was responsible for a nominal force of 60 divisions, but only 40 were at or near combat-effectiveness, and the others ranged from units that existed only on paper, to those completely unfit for operations. Marshal Kribov solicited opinions from his Front and Army commanders, and while there were those who felt the Allies could be given a bloody nose, most felt that the time had come to end the war, and present Moscow with a fait accompli.

As U.S. and Allied forces were pouring into the Pacific Northwest and the unoccupied areas of Alberta, a forward outpost of the 116th Armored Cavalry Regiment (ID NG), just north of the Montana-Alberta border crossing at the northern terminus of I-15, was surprised to see a Soviet UAZ jeep approaching their position under a white flag. The occupants of the jeep were Marshal Kribov's deputy Chief of Staff, and his air force and naval counterparts. They requested a meeting with the Allied Theater Command to discuss a cease-fire and orderly surrender of Soviet forces in Alaska and Canada. General Schwartzkopf, who had just been summoned north to take charge of the entire Northern Theater, met the Soviet delegation at Malmstrom Air Force Base near Great Falls on 14 October. Schwartzkopf's instructions from the Joint Chiefs were clear: unconditional surrender was the only possible outcome. To illustrate the fact that more forces were arriving in theater daily, he had the Soviet delegation watch as the 14th Armored Division (II Corps) passed by the base on I-15 as it headed north to the border. The Soviets were told that certain KGB, GRU, and military officers were wanted for war crimes, and that all prisoners in POW and labor camps were to be released upon arrival of Allied teams that would parachute in to take over the camps, pending the arrival of ground forces, and that until Allied ground forces or guerilla units arrived, the Soviets were responsible for maintaining civil law and order. Kribov told his delegates to stall for time, as he needed to neutralize the KGB throughout the region. That was accomplished on 19 October, and Kribov himself flew to Malmstrom AFB on 21 October to sign the cease-fire document. All hostilities in North America were to cease at 2000, Eastern Standard Time on 22 October 1989. Both commanders signed, and with the stroke of a pen, the war in North America was over. U.S. and Allied forces then moved in to disarm the Soviets, guerilla units came out of their "Partisan Areas"-areas in Alaska and Canada where there were no Soviet forces, and a semblance of normal U.S. or Canadian authority was maintained, inmates of POW and labor camps were freed, and aid began moving in by sea and air to the formerly occupied territories to benefit the civilian population, and to ensure that disarmed Soviet forces themselves had enough to eat. The Stars and Stripes were raised in Anchorage on 24 October by the 9th Marines, 3rd Marine Division, in Fairbanks the next day by the 173rd Airborne Brigade, and in Juneau the same day by the 24th Marines, 4th Marine Division. Calgary and Edmonton were liberated on 24 October, with the Canadian Airborne Regiment landing by air in Calgary, and the British 5th Airborne Brigade arriving in Edmonton. In all areas, the handover was peaceful and orderly, and while the task of picking up the pieces and beginning to rebuild would be enormous, the war was still not over. It would take civil war in the heart of Russia and the Far East to force the old men in the Kremlin to acknowledge that the war they had started had ended.

Okay, fellas, here's the rest of the Keegan chapter: While the Soviet Union was losing control over the Warsaw Pact, and even within its own house in Central Asia, the U.S. and Allied forces began moving forces north to the Alaska-Canada Theater, to put pressure on Soviet forces in Canada and Alaska, and force the Soviet North American TVD Commander to accept a cease-fire, given that the U.S. Pacific Fleet was interdicting convoys bound for Alaska and inflicting "unacceptable" attrition. Even before the successful conclusion of BORDER FURY, forces began displacing from Texas and moving north. XV Corps from Third Army, XX Corps from Fifth Army, and both II Corps and the ROK Expeditionary Corps from Sixth Army were redeployed north, though the ROKs didn't move until after Brownsville's surrender. In addition, one division from each corps not redeployed was also sent north, along with USAF, Marine, and shore-based Navy air assets. The U.S. First and Eighth Armies (the latter HQ redeployed from South Korea), and the Canadian First Army were preparing for an operation that wasn't expected to begin until May of 1990, but the more pressure put on the Soviets before winter, the better. What happened, though, was completely unexpected.

DD951

sloreck said: DD951: Good on you for getting those swine what they deserved. I have to wonder what their lawyer was thinking, if they went in front of a military court they would have been convicted and executed even faster as their "soldierly" activities all violated law of war. I had to give evidence after the war on medical forensics of what we found when I was with 1st FSSG. It broke my heart to detail what had been done to people when their families were in the courtroom. I imagine if we ever get our hands on any surviving senior NK folks, I'll be called of the retired list again to testify about what we found in Guam - the mass grave of dependents on the grounds of Andersen AFB for example.

Of all the things I did during the war, the hardest was treating captured auxiliaries who were wounded. Some of the low level ones had been press-ganged or joined to get food, but the higher ups (and I mean NCO & up) were serious. I remember working to save the life of one auxiliary officer with commissar insignia. We saved him, because that's what we (the medical types) do, but we were all sick about it. However, we were pleased when we heard that 10 month later he was executed by hanging after court-martial.

Never said the guy was a very good, or smart lawyer- IIRC, one of the charges in the ethics complaint against him was violating the duty of competence. However, considering that he was a ‘fellow traveler,’ he & his clients just might have been delusional enough to believe that they were ‘soldiers’ acting under the laws of war, or at least the rather… warped interpretation that the Soviets, especially the KGB which ran most of the auxiliaries, seemed to follow on paper, and should have been treated as POWs. But again, they never tried arguing any sort of diminished capacity defense, so there was no psych evaluation to see whether or not they were playing with a full deck, not that it would have likely done them much good. Under WA law, in order to argue insanity or a similar diminished capacity defense, a defendant must suffer from a mental disease or defect (sociopathy and other antisocial personality disorders don’t count) and as a result of that disease or defect they must (1) be unable to distinguish right from wrong; (2) be unable to perceive the nature of their actions; or (3) believe God told them to do whatever. Somehow, I don’t think they could have demonstrated that.

And I hear you about the bad memories- saw a lot of that up in BC, the San Juans and the north Puget Sound area. One of the things we did was to respond to ‘raids’ there- rescuing any survivors, recovering the dead, searching for intel, and salvaging anything of military value from the wreckage… some of the stuff I saw on those landing parties, was, well, a lot like the stuff the Nazis did. One thing that I don’t get is that despite all the experiences with the Nazis- the atrocities, suffering, and hatred- the Soviets had during World War II, they seemed hell-bent on doing the same stuff to people who hadn’t really done anything to them before the war, much less than the German civilians in World War Two- WTF happened over there. A few times, some of the enemy troops responsible would stay behind and try sniping at the landing parties from the ruins- lost some men that way, although we gave as good as we got- I took out a few with my M-14 myself. Regardless of who they were- Spetznaz, KGB, auxiliaries, Red Army, or Naval Infantry, all of the ones we cornered were rather disinclined to surrender. Funny thing, that.

It was really tense when we did capture some of them. A few days after the Point Roberts Massacre- something that probably would have made even mercs from the 30 Years War, or Roman Legionaries puke had they seen it, we stopped a cabin cruiser acting suspiciously nearby. Turns out, it was full of auxiliaries from a particularly nasty unit that had been heavily involved in the massacre, and we took them into custody, somewhat reluctantly. In retrospect, it was probably fortunate for all of us that the Bosun pointed out that our yardarms weren’t really suitable for hanging people, before anybody got a bright idea. Still, a military commission dealt with that scum quickly enough.

The stuff about having to testify about what was done to people in front of their relatives hits a little too close to home- see, right when the war started, a bunch of small children got evaced from Texas to keep them out of the line of fire, and a bunch of them ended up in some sort of group home in an old summer camp. near Seattle. We'd visit them quite a bit, have them come on board when we were in port for a few days, write letters back and forth, that sort of stuff. Anyways there were these two lovely little girls, one from Houston and the other from San Antonio, who were 4 & 6 respectively when this all started, that I grew close to. Once the war was over, we found out that their families didn't make it, and my fiance and I ended up adopting them. While testifying at the Vegas trials, one of the people who's jobs it was to investigate these things gave me reports on what happened to their families- as you can imagine, it wasn't pretty. Since then, I've lived in dread of them asking exactly what happened to their birth families- given the details, it's not something you'd ever want to tell your kids, but again how can you not answer the question of it's asked? Fortunately, they haven't asked yet- don't know if it's because they don't really remember their biological families, or they've been able to satisfy their curiosity by extrapolating from what's generally known about how the Soviets treated civilians caught behind the lines in that theater.

DD951

Matt Wiser said: Any of 'em run afoul of the FBI during the war? After all, the Bureau was in charge of wartime counterintelligence and counterterrorism/sabotage. Unless an area was declared a military zone (like the unoccupied areas of Colorado, Wyoming, or New Mexico, for example), the normal civilian authority was in charge. In a military zone, though, UCMJ applied to both the military and civilians.

Wasn't the cruiser Des Moines busy there as well? ISTR my Air War College notes saying that she was busy in the Pacific NW (she was en route to Seattle when the failed amphib was wiped out), and shuttled via the Canal after things were settled in Panama to the Caribbean: she was busy with NGFS for GULF HAMMER, and the bombardments of Corpus Christi and Brownsville, and bombarded several targets on the Mexican Gulf Coast as well.

I saw the ceremony on CNN. They had the best job of all three news networks. Sen. Mason will give the eulogy at the funeral on Thursday.

Dont really know about any of them in particular having run-ins with the FBI- not something I've looked into, but I wouldn't be surprised- there's an unsually high number of volumes of the Federal Reporter from the war years and the 3-4 years after that, with an unusually high percentage of opinions dealing with criminal appeals, so it'd be possible to find out if someone was willing to sort through all that. A little surprised that someone hasn't written an article or book about that- I have some friends and contacts on the faculty at both the UW and Seattle University law schools who'd let me know if something popped up in a legal journal, and some others in the History and Political Science Departments at UW who'd let me know about any published works in those fields.

Ran into Des Moines a few times on a few NGFS missions- she had a big role in clearing the way for the Canadian armored division that relieved the Vancouver airport and breaking up a division-sized Soviet armored reinforcement/counterattack effort against the airport before it got there- from what I've heard about the fighting there- that would have overrun the British and Canadian paratroopers that took the place had it gotten through. However, she didn't spend that much time in BC or the San Juans, but rather, other parts of the theater- after all, a Forrest Sherman DD was considered to be uncomfortably large for a lot of that.

JN1

OCC: I'm in the process of reading a book about the 1984 Miner's Strike and it made me think that in TTL it won't happen for a number of reasons:

1. The National Government is going to be very concerned with energy security, so there will not be any programme of pit closures (one of the catalysts of the strike).

2. The PM will not be looking for a confrontation with the NUM in what is wartime.

3. Despite the union being led at the time by Communists (Scargill for example) the majority of the NUM membership were not. If the UK is at war then IMVHO most miners will support the war effort. Anybody who tries to stir up a national strike without a ballot will find themselves on a plane to the Isle of Man.

One effect this may have on the future is that the NUM will not fracture, there will be no DUM and there may well be more pits and heavy industry in the UK of 2009 ITTL than in @, the war will certainly help the steel industry in the long run.

Matt Wiser

Did you guys escort either 3rd or 4th Marine Divisions up to Alaska once the theaterwide cease-fire was signed? I bet the welcome was twofold: Alaskans grateful for their liberation, and Russians probably relieved that the whole thing was over, even if they had lost.

Panzerfaust, any of the auxiliaries ever show any remorse? Even on the gallows? The ones at the Cannon AFB EPW compound were despised by just about everyone: those of us at the base, the Army and Marines fighting nearby in Clovis, and even the ComBloc EPWs had no love for the auxiliaries-at least the unrepentant ones. Btw, Major Ray says "thanks for Key West." She really needed to face those animals, and the party afterward. She hasn't had a nightmare since. Don't blame her for the now-infamous Youtube video. I've seen it, so has Lisa. (I thought she'd kill me for looking at it, but she understood) When things in Cuba settle down (you still have a few die-hards causing trouble for the occupation force and the Provisional Government), I won't be surprised if a number of ex-POWs do go back.

Another note from Colorado: seems someone found Col. Tanner's F-15A. It's in Sheriff Lori Sheppard's jurisdiction, and she and a couple of deputies went to check it out. They found the tail, parts of the fuselage, and both engines. There was unexploded 20-mm ammo found as well, so they called in EOD from Fort Carson-who'll be there tomorrow.

DD951

Matt Wiser said: Did you guys escort either 3rd or 4th Marine Divisions up to Alaska once the theaterwide cease-fire was signed? I bet the welcome was twofold: Alaskans grateful for their liberation, and Russians probably relieved that the whole thing was over, even if they had lost.

Panzerfaust, any of the auxiliaries ever show any remorse? Even on the gallows? The ones at the Cannon AFB EPW compound were despised by just about everyone: those of us at the base, the Army and Marines fighting nearby in Clovis, and even the ComBloc EPWs had no love for the auxiliaries-at least the unrepentant ones. Btw, Major Ray says "thanks for Key West." She really needed to face those animals, and the party afterward. She hasn't had a nightmare since. Don't blame her for the now-infamous Youtube video. I've seen it, so has Lisa. (I thought she'd kill me for looking at it, but she understood) When things in Cuba settle down (you still have a few die-hards causing trouble for the occupation force and the Provisional Government), I won't be surprised if a number of ex-POWs do go back.

Another note from Colorado: seems someone found Col. Tanner's F-15A. It's in Sheriff Lori Sheppard's jurisdiction, and she and a couple of deputies went to check it out. They found the tail, parts of the fuselage, and both engines. There was unexploded 20-mm ammo found as well, so they called in EOD from Fort Carson-who'll be there tomorrow.

I wasn't involved in escorting the 3rd & 4th Marine Divisions to Alaska after the cease-fire; when it ended, Turner Joy was about halfway between Pearl and San Francisco, escorting a convoy from Japan in on the last leg of its voyage.

For what it's worth, only a couple of the auxiliaries we caught showed any remorse or regrets- they were both guys who got press-ganged during one of the 'raids'- think the commissar of that unit wanted a couple of personal servants, although not sure why in the world he would have picked them. Other than that, all the ones we caught were almost fanatics, and just about everyone hated them.

Panzerfaust 150

Matt Wiser said: Panzerfaust, any of the auxiliaries ever show any remorse? Even on the gallows? The ones at the Cannon AFB EPW compound were despised by just about everyone: those of us at the base, the Army and Marines fighting nearby in Clovis, and even the ComBloc EPWs had no love for the auxiliaries-at least the unrepentant ones. Btw, Major Ray says "thanks for Key West." She really needed to face those animals, and the party afterward. She hasn't had a nightmare since. Don't blame her for the now-infamous Youtube video. I've seen it, so has Lisa. (I thought she'd kill me for looking at it, but she understood) When things in Cuba settle down (you still have a few die-hards causing trouble for the occupation force and the Provisional Government), I won't be surprised if a number of ex-POWs do go back.

I don't man, my wife just has a jealous streak..we kissed and made up......Anyhow, as for the Auxiliaries I dealt with, it was about 50/50. Many were scared kids who had bought the "arise ye oppressed masses" line and all the other crap their professors or "community activists" (not all of them were involved in that, but some were) were shoveling. The reality? Very different and those folks were usually simply misguided fools who were grateful to us for not shooting them and getting them off the battlefield unharmed.

As for the other half? Mix of 60s Weathermen diehards and their kids, leftist radicals, you name it. Those folks were dangerous. To everybody. We had one smuggle a frag grenade into an EPW enclosure and toss it into a passing truck..before the MPs could do a damn thing, the QM company who's truck it had been hosed down the enclosure with .50 cal fire. Not pretty. We found out what had happened from the survivors. It was fairly early in the drive south so we weren't segregating prisoners by service, just rank at that point. We learned to do so, because the other ComBloc EPWs HATED them. They had no discipline, and tended to cozy up to the few KGB prisoners we had. No, that 50% showed little to no remorse.

Matt Wiser

Glad to see you kissed and made up. Btw, she and the other ex-POWs there are looking for the idiot with the camera. I believe the term "busted kneecap" is what she and the others are saying. And I don't blame 'em. Her live-in boyfriend, who's ex-Air Force (CSP), wasn't too thrilled, either, but he understood that all the ex-POWs had a lot of steam to blow off.

Anyone catch the procession down from Denver to Calumet today? All the news networks (and even C-SPAN) had it live. Lots of people lining I-25 in both lanes to watch, and from overpasses. The Patriot Guard was waiting at the church where Toni and Robert will lie in repose overnight, and the service is at the High School Gym-and even then the crowd's expected to be larger than the gym's capacity-they'll be setting up loudspeakers. The actual burial will be at the rock itself, where Ardvark and Col. Tanner are buried. Btw, Sheriff Lori Sheppard called: the Fort Carson EOD guys not only found unexpended 20-mm ammo in the wreck, but two AIM-7s and an AIM-9. The EOD techs gathered all the ordnance and blew it up in a controlled demo.

I'll bet that by that time, convoy duty was largely boring. Even the Atlantic convoys in '89 were pretty tame, though the occasional sub attack did happen from time to time. By that time, Soviet naval attrition had been frightful from their POV.

JN1

On the morning of the 15th August, 1988 those of us assigned to El Alamein Company, the provisional company formed from 7 Black Watch assembled at Dreghorn Barracks in Edinburgh. About half of my section were original members, but the rest were drawn from the other platoons of D Company.
We were issued with a few extra pieces of equipment, including Charlie Gs, extra GPMGs and even a couple of Fifty Cals, before being put aboard requisitioned buses and sent off to Jedburgh. The road south was packed with military vehicles carrying troops and equipment, while once we close to Jedburgh there were also a lot of civilian vehicles heading north, despite fuel rationing.

The Borders town of Jedburgh had been made the centre of operations of troops coming from the north. It was absolute chaos will hundreds of troops from dozens of units seemingly going in all directions with apparently little control from anyone. The most unusual unit I saw was a mounted unit formed by a Borders based Home Service Force battalion which they used to patrol the more intractable parts of the Southern Uplands.

After what seemed like an interminable delay, but was in fact only an hour, our company commander, Captain John Ferguson, found someone who seemed to be in charge and we were finally given our assignments. My ten man section found itself guarding a Vehicle Check Point on a minor road on the outer perimeter, reinforcing two rather frightened looking police officers. On talking to both constables I learned that they had been given a box containing two old Webley Mk.IV revolvers and fifty .38/200 rounds. Their sergeant had told them that they were under no circumstances to load the revolvers, or take them out of the box unless it was an emergency.

I had a good look at the ground around the VCP and I can’t say I was too happy. We were quite isolated and there was a wood nearby from where any enemy could engage us from. Perhaps this isolation was why we had been given a GPMG on a SF mount as well as a Bren gun.

While we hung around, checking the odd civilian car that passed our way, we did see quite a lot of aircraft flying overhead. Apart from the ubiquitous helicopters, the most common aircraft was the Harrier GR.3. Not surprising really, as the RAF had deployed a squadron of them to the old airfield at Charterhall. However we also saw Tornadoes, F-16s, Jaguars, Buccaneers, Hawks and even Hunters passing over.
Occasionally in the distance we would hear low rumbles and spot the odd column of smoke rising into the air, evidence that the air force was doing more than just flying over us trying to look like they were busy.

At this point I suppose it would be best if I explained how ‘Operation PYTHON’ was organised. Reports from local HSF troops and air reconnaissance had located where the largest group of Soviet paratroopers were located, the rest were just scattered individuals easily dealt with. However as soon as was possible a cordon was thrown around this group to hopefully pin them in place, as soon as was practical a second cordon was set up followed by a third.
The inner cordon was exclusively manned by regular troops, while the middle cordon was made up of a mix of regular and Territorial troops. We HSF troops were use to make up the majority of the outer cordon; I guess it was all we were trusted with.
The hunter troops, initially 45 Commando and two battalions of the Parachute Regiment, though they were soon joined by 41 Commando and two more regular infantry battalions, would start their sweeps from the outer cordon moving inwards, hoping to catch any Soviet stragglers caught between the cordons. Supplementing those moving across the ground were air mobile troops and motorized troops, some equipped with light armour, who patrolled the roads.

The Vehicle Check Points had a vital role to play in this scheme. We were supposed to prevent any civilians from entering the danger zone and were also supposed to check all vehicles coming out to make sure no Soviets paras were aboard. We were also, to some extent, serving as tethered goats.

*

After a few hours I could tell that my section was beginning to get board. Every civilian vehicle between the middle and outer cordon had by now left, so we had nothing to do but stand around in the August heat and it was a particularly hot summer.
I was beginning to get a bit worried as this was just the sort of moment that an enemy might chose to attack, but I needn’t have worried too much as the girl manning the Bren gun was still very much alert. She suddenly yelled out that she had seen someone crossing the road a couple of hundred meters away.
I saw a few figures in the distance and brought up my SLR so I could have a look at them through the SUIT optical sight. To my surprise they were carrying what were clearly AK rifles and wearing Soviet uniforms.

“F**k me, they’re Russians!” I shouted in surprise while I fumbled with the SLR’s safety catch.

The Bren gunner was quicker off the mark and immediately opened fire. I saw two of the enemy collapse as I brought up my own weapon; by the time I opened fire several other members of the section were also firing their rifles and the GPMG gunner also now belatedly opened up, so I’ve no way of knowing whether it was my bullets that took out another enemy para.
While most of the section were blasting off their magazines at fleeting enemy targets the lance-corporal who served as second in command of the section had kept her head and was calmly reporting the small engagement into our Clansman radio.
By the time I managed to get everyone to cease-fire we had all blown off about two magazines each and the GPMG had gone through an entire belt. Not bad for an engagement lasting all of about two minutes!

As it is now time to go and make my dinner, I think that would be an appropriate time to close this part of my tale.

JN1

IC: I was in Dundee on Monday for HSF Association business and I had a couple of hours to kill afterwords so I headed down to the city centre to visit the bookshops. I managed to pick up a copy of the Osprey Combat Aircraft volume on 'USAF F-4 Phantom II Mig killers of World War Three'. Guess who's aircraft was included in the profiles section? Yup, our very own Matt.
I noticed that the Osprey campaign series is starting to cover some of the battles from WW3.

OOC: Actually it was 'USAF F-4 Phantom Mig killers 1965-68'.

JN1

I’ve been working up a provisional orbat for the British Army in Canada. It needs a lot of work, but I thought I’d post what I’ve done so far.

ORBAT 15th September 1984.
1st (UK) Armoured Division.
7th Armoured Brigade.
12th Armoured Brigade.
22nd Armoured Brigade.

5th Airborne Brigade.

ORBAT 1st January 1989.
I (Br) Corps.

1st (UK) Armoured Division.
7th Armoured Brigade.
12th Armoured Brigade.
22nd Armoured Brigade.

16th Airborne Division.
1st Infantry Brigade (Air-landing).
5th Airborne Brigade.
44th Airborne Brigade.

48th Gurkha Brigade.

1st ANZAC Division.

This is a very bald orbat for the moment. I need to do a bit more research, hopefully filling it out down to regiment/battalion level. I also need to look at an orbat for the resurrected BAOR once the Euros rejoined the war; from what I remember we deployed II (Br) Corp plus our remaining armoured divisions (3rd, 4th, 7th, 11th). I’ll need to look into what else was deployed both to Canada and Germany. I’ll also need to add the RAF Regiment squadrons which ended up in Canada.

OOC: I wonder just how large a force we can justify sending to Canada? If anyone has any suggestions as to how big the British Army in Canada (BAC) could be then I’ll add extra formations.

Matt Wiser

Glad to see the Osprey book's out: the author was here at both Hill and Mountain Home interviewing several of us who had F-4 time during the war. I haven't seen it yet, but I hope it's tail no. 73-0512, the plane I flew most often during the war, and was 335's Squadron CO's bird at the end. (mainly because I was running the squadron, and so....) It's now at the Castle AFB museum. The Air Guard in Missouri flew her for a while after 4th TFW got F-15Es, and she got saved from AMARC due to her record. At least the 131st TFW from St. Louis kept up the shark's mouth artwork and the MiG kill markings on her. Too bad most of the F-4s that survived the war and postwar ANG or AFRES service got used as targets on the range, or as clay pigeons in missile shoots at White Sands or Eglin....I do remember when the author left the room where he'd interviewed Lt. Col. Kara Sackhoff; the man left shaking his head. I guess he couldn't believe the stuff she did-and he wasn't the only one.

For a squadron that did mainly air-to-ground stuff, we had our share of aces. There were even two ace teams that specialized in helos. One had eight, the other six; and all of their kills were Hips or Hinds. Unfortunately, one crew was KIA, the other was shot down and only the WSO was recovered: he had a broken leg when the PJs found him. The pilot was never found-he's still MIA. I still drink a toast to him: he was my bunkmate at Williams and later on, at Kirtland once we retook the Alberquerque area.

How many of you guys saw the funeral today on TV? The O Club at Mountain Home was dead quiet during the service and final burial. Sen. Mason gave a very moving eulogy, the Governor said a few words, and the CO of the 5th SFG presented Sen. Mason with a Green Beret, and both Toni and Robert were posthemously made honorary Green Berets. The Patriot Guard was there, as some lefties had said they would try and disrupt the service, but nothing happened. (if anyone was so foolish as to try, there would've been a lynching...) The final service was at the rock, with full military honors, and the 49th's flyby was the finale.

DD951

Caught the funeral on TV too- just stirring. Good thing that if there were any lefties there planning something, they had second thoughts- having that mar the ceremony would have been beyond disgusting.

Matt Wiser

It would've been really stupid for any lefties to try something; there was some internet chatter about disrupting the service or the procession, or so the Denver Post said. But it's a fair bet all the Patriot Guard bikers scared 'em off.

The Russian Republic rep was also in Colorado: the other two remains found were ID'd as Soviet, and were ID'd basically via checking unit records. A VDV Sergeant and a SAF crew chief (also a Sergeant) were the two Soviet remains found. None of the two had NOK living in the Russian or Far East Republics, so they'll be buried in the nearby ComBloc cemetery.

Panzerfaust, since the Russian Republic and the rump USSR border's pretty wild, how are things on the USSR-Far Eastern Republic border? Just as wild? I gather they have a little bit of everything nuclear-wise, because they had a lot back in the day: the Soviet Pacific Fleet's missile subs, both Air Force and Naval Aviation bombers (Backfires and Bears), and both IRBMs and ICBMs. From what their ambassador said on CNN recently, they're proud of being independent from Moscow (or St. Petersburg, for that matter) and are more than willing to fight to keep it. Have they been, shall we say, cooperative on POW-MIA matters, postwar obligations, and the like?

trekchu

A buddy of mine is flying out of Elmendorf AFB, and he says that it's essentially the Wild West all over again out there, since neither Government had the will or the resources to really police that border.

[lordroel]

From page 63

Matt Wiser

He must be a Blackbird or U-2 driver to get that far. One thing I bet the Rump USSR is regretting is their UN boycott: they stopped attending for several years, and blew their chance to veto admission of former Soviet Republics, the Russian Republic, and the FER. The ultimate irony happened a year ago when the FER was elected to a Security Council term, much to the Rump USSR's chagrin. There was a meeting about some of the Chinese regional warlords using CW on each other, and you could tell on CNN the hatred the FER's ambassador and the Soviet one had on their faces; they just glared at each other-you could tell that both wished the other would drop dead right then and there. To say both states despise each other would be a major understatement.

Trekchu: did you see some of your old buddies on the TV coverage of the funeral? There were a bunch of fellas with a 14th AD flag alongside the parade route from the church to the high school. And a couple members of the Patriot Guard flew 14th colors on their Harleys.

Hey Mann: it's official now: you can call Kelly Ann Ray Lt. Colonel now. The reserve Lt. Col. list came out today, and she was on it. And no, I won't be losing her. She stays in 419, just with the rank to go with the job.

trekchu

I saw a few guys, but none from my Company. We are meeting up for a reunion in a few weeks though. The buddy in Elemendorf can't tell me what he is actually doing up there, but I suspect he is a U-2 driver.

Matt Wiser

Either that, or he's flying something more....exotic. The war didn't put an end to the Skunk Works at Lockheed-Burbank, though the Soviets did try a couple of times-and failed. Aurora might be what he drives, but then again, the U-2 and SR-71 missions are classified, so that might explain things, even if the wartime imagery they took has been declassified.

Well, fellas, the last Keegan chapter has been a good read, and how he got Russian Republic and FER sources who had been in the Kremlin to talk is amazing. When word of the Brownsville Cease-Fire reached the Kremlin, the Politburo's first response was to order the arrest and execution of both CINC-Ground Forces and the Chief of the General Staff. (both were classmates of Marshal Kribov, so that partially explains his decision to quit) The Kremlin also ordered that "the most brutal means" be employed to suppress the revolts now spreading into the Caucasus and the Ukraine in the West to the Far Eastern provinces in the East. All that did was increase the scope and speed of the rebellion, and when Marshal Kribov surrendered his forces in North America, a coup took place in Moscow, led by Gen. Pavel Shavaryin, the new CGS, and involving the 2nd (Taman) Guards MRD and the 106th Guards Air Assault Division from Ryazan. While the Kremlin leadership escaped by train to Kubyshev and the Volga Supreme Command Post, Shavaryin declared the establishment of a Russian Republic, and offered an immediate armistice with the U.S. and its allies. About half of the remaining divisions of the Soviet Army, half of the SAF and Voyska PVO, a third of the Strategic Rocket Forces, and the bulk of the Navy, sided with the General and his "Provisional Military Government of the Russian Republic." The Soviet leadership controlled most of the remaining armed forces west of the Urals, though the FER had sizable ground, air, and naval forces at the disposal of Marshal Vasily Konstantinov, CINC-FAR EAST, who ordered his forces to repel, by force, any attempt by either Soviet or Russian forces to enter FER territory. Konstantinov, who had dreams himself of taking power over all of Russia, also offered an armistice with U.S. and Allied forces, and after discussion between Raven Rock, London, and Ottawa, with the other allies being consulted, those offers were accepted on 20 October 1989. The Soviet leaders denounced both officers as traitors, but had to bow to reality, and the ComBloc sent delegates to the UN in Geneva, where they met U.S. and Allied representatives on 26 October. The Allied demands were simple: an immediate end to hostilities, exchange of POWs, and payment of war reparations from those governments the Allies held responsible for the war. The various ComBloc delegates soon watched as the Mexican delegates signed a separate armistice with the U.S., as a coup attempt had taken place in Mexico City. It failed, but it sparked the insurgencies that continue in Mexico today. The Soviets then watched as Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Bulgaria all signed similar deals with the Allies, leaving the Soviets, Cubans, North Koreans, and Libyans without armistice agreements. A general armistice was soon agreed to, as the Soviets had no choice, with the Civil War now spreading like a wildfire, and pen was put to paper, with the Third World War ending on 30 October 1989. However, as is well known, both Cuba and North Korea felt the armistice didn't apply to them, and Allied operations against both (mainly air and naval, with an amphibous operation to liberate Guam in November-December 1989) continued, with the North Koreans accepting on 17 December 1989. Cuba continued to hold out, mainly due to demands by Fidel Castro that, in the view of U.S. Secretary of State James Baker, "were made by someone who didn't realize he'd fought a foreign war and lost." However, the U.S. naval blockade, and continuing air action against targets in Cuba, forced Castro to agree that the armistice applied to him, and hostilities with Cuba ended on 4 March 1990. For all intents and purposes,though, 30 October became Victory Day in the U.S., Canada, and the allied countries, and is now a national holiday in both the U.S. and Canada.

Well, where were you guys when it was over on 30 Oct? We were at Fairchild AFB, enforcing the cease-fire in B.C. and wondering if we'd go to Alaska, but someone else got the call for that. Orbiting over Kamloops, we got a radio call that everybody hoped would come: "Break, Ohio, Ohio, Ohio, Break." That was the code for "Cease all hostilities with Combloc." And there was so much cheering on the radio it was jammed, as everyone was hollering. I had to tell the flight to knock it off, we still have a patrol to fly, and there'll be a party on the ground. Sure enough, when we got back to Fairchild, there was one base-wide party in progress. That night, there was an impromptou fireworks show, CSPs shooting tracers in the air from their machine guns, and some now-discarded fraternization regs being broken in places. There also was one mighty confused B-52H crew from the host wing, the 92nd BW, wondering why everyone on base was getting crazy, as they came in and landed near midnight. They had flown the last SAC Eastern Express mission of the war, hitting a Soviet-held section of Siberia. Their SATCOM message from SAC hadn't been received for some reason, and they didn't know the war had ended about a half-hour after they dropped their bombs. That crew wised up pretty fast. The party for the cease-fire in North America was pretty crazy, but this one was wilder than that. Then where did they send us when it was all over? We didn't rejoin our parent wing, not yet. Nope, it was back down to the Mexican border, and the El Centro Naval Air Facility in the Imperial Valley. Seemed Baja had broken away from Mexico City, and they were asking for U.S. protection....

DD951

When the armistice was signed on the 30th, the Turner Joy was about 8 hours out from Pearl, in a group of a couple cruisers and 8 or so destroyer/frigate types- shortly after the cease-fires, this group of ships, which had been escorting a convoy to San Francisco, handed off the merchies to coastal forces about 100 miles from the Golden Gate, and then did an UNREP and turned around, to become part of the TF assembling for the operation to retake Guam in Hawaii. Tried to have as much as a party as we could, but wasn't that much, between the unavailability of booze, the need to maintain Condition 3 steaming, and Guam hanging over our heads- the war not being quite over for us being a real downer. About all we could do was have the cooks go all out in creating a special meal, and an extended movie night. The real blowout party for us took place in early January, when we docked at Subic and got a few days of liberty following the liberation of Guam, as we got sent farther west to help clean up some of the leftover messes in SE Asia.

trekchu

We were just shipping out to back south when word reached our Division. Never before and never after was I that drunk for that long..... My head still aches when I think of it.

sloreck

Was MAGTF surgeon on the Tarawa on "the day". We knew we were scheduled for the Guam Op, so that put a bit of a damper on celebrations - however the CO gave extensive liberty and San Diego is just over the bridge from Coronado. It was shortly after this the Red Cross contacted me & told me about my family (wife & 2 sons)- and I made the decision to stay with the Navy & my Marines as they were my family now. Was a recalled reservist, my boss expedited my transfer to regular status as a favor to me, done in 2 weeks. Buried myself in work until we went to Guam & back.

Have discussed my family reunion in N.O. with those of us who made it thru, and later remarriage & new family in other posts.

Panzerfaust 150

Matt Wiser said: Panzerfaust, since the Russian Republic and the rump USSR border's pretty wild, how are things on the USSR-Far Eastern Republic border? Just as wild? I gather they have a little bit of everything nuclear-wise, because they had a lot back in the day: the Soviet Pacific Fleet's missile subs, both Air Force and Naval Aviation bombers (Backfires and Bears), and both IRBMs and ICBMs. From what their ambassador said on CNN recently, they're proud of being independent from Moscow (or St. Petersburg, for that matter) and are more than willing to fight to keep it. Have they been, shall we say, cooperative on POW-MIA matters, postwar obligations, and the like?

The FER is even in more of a mess than the USSR. Lots of rads drifting north from China have dusted their coastal cites, and much of the interior is well, defacto independent from the central government. They are doing their best to honor their war obligations..but seeing as how much of that government is bought and paid for by various Japanese and Korean corporations. They want a place to do business with little trouble. So, in parts of the FER, it's very well policed, and the Japanese and Korean corporate Mercs run things with an iron fist. In others...it's the wild west.

As for where I was on 30th October? I was closing up shop in Brownsville and preparing to get transport north to Reno for my reassignment to the prosecutorial investigation team. And I was there and at the Tier II trials for the next three years till I demobbed. Then, I get a civilian contractor job doing the same damn thing which kept me in cash while I finished my Bachelors and Masters as well as my teaching cert. I got married during this time too. All in all, it all worked out. But yeah, the trials were the worst for me. I still have some PTSD issues from my part in helping to build the case against Khvostov.

Matt Wiser

Southeast Asia messes...didn't some of the Chinese warlords turn to piracy when they got a hold of some PLA-Navy ships and subs? ISTR a CNN story from mid '91 where 7th Fleet had to blockade some island-Hainan, I think, because the local air and naval commanders had gone marauder. Just like those fundie types in Yemen, charging tolls to get into or out of the Red Sea, until Nimitz launched some air strikes, and Salem gave them 350+ 8-inch rounds....Indonesia (or what calls itself Indonesia) has piracy trouble as well, and we all know what's going on with Somalia.

One thing about being sent down to El Centro was that both Lisa and I could check up on family. She's from Mission Viejo in Orange County, and I'm from a small town near Fresno, so once the squadron was settled in at El Centro, I gave ourselves 48 hours' leave to check on family. Everybody in the family (Mom, grandparents, aunt, and most other family) was fine. Just glad it was over. Lisa's parents were OK, but her older brother was a Marine officer in 3rd Marine Division up in the Pacific NW, and they hadn't heard from him since a week before the cease-fire in the Northwest. It turned out he'd stepped on a mine the day before the surrender up there, and Chuck died before he got to a hospital. Hell of a thing-go through four years of war, only to get killed a day before it was over. Her sister Joanne was a Navy Lt. on U.S.S. Bigelow out of Jacksonville, supporting the Cuba blockade, and occasionally going in close and bombarding some target in Cuba. Brad, her younger brother, was in the Army, going through Helicopter training-he's a CWO-4 now, flying AH-64s with 24th ID at Fort Stewart. Her dad had tried to re-up, as he was ex-Navy (didn't serve in SEA, but was in the Sixth Fleet in both '67 and '73), but he was turned down because of his job-he worked for McDonnell Douglas in Long Beach-he worked during the war on the secondary F-15 line and later on the C-17 program. Joanne has some pretty interesting stories about being a 90-day wonder (Navy OCS), then going to a destroyer fresh out of mothballs, convoy duty, GULF HAMMER, supporting the Corpus Christi op, then BORDER FURY. When she joined the ship along with three other female officers, the skipper hadn't been told he was getting women, but made do.
951, when did Turner Joy get women? Just about every Navy ship during the war, except for subs, had female officers and crew.

Anybody else seen the alternate histories that have come out in the last few years, you know, the ones that ask "what if there'd been no World War III?" With a Whimper, Not a Bang, is the one that has the Cold War ending in the late '80s and early '90s, without a shot being fired, due to a reformist leader in Moscow letting things open up. Isn't there one or two that have the Cold War still going on?

trekchu

I've read With a Whimper, Not a Bang. It's a very enjoyable read, but the post-Cold War world is a bit ASB Imo. There is no chance we'd cut defence Spending like that...

Matt Wiser

You're right about With a Whimper, Not a Bang; no way would we cut the military like that. One of my non-flying officers who works in the Wing Ops office (she's a schoolteacher and a grad student at BYU) said that for an AH, it could be worse. Oh well, it's better than those that ask what if Ivan won? We all know the answer to that without having to read those, don't we?

Panzerfaust, has the FER been invited to this symposium you're headed to on POW-MIA matters? I would reckon they would have info on some of the SAC losses over Siberia-or maybe not, if they're not entirely in control of some regions. No doubt they have MIAs whose homes are now in their territory, and families asking for info on their loved ones. Who's technically in charge there, anyway? I remember reading that Marshal Konstantinov got himself killed trying to lead one of his armies over the Urals to get into European Russia, and the FER had their own civil war for a while as a result. Technically, the FER's still run by the military, correct? But with all this Japanese and ROK influence....At least nobody popped a nuke during all that unpleasantness.

Well, if any of you guys are going to be at Scott AFB for the National Victory Day air show (weather permitting), both the 366th and the 419th are sending aircraft. The 366th has the "MO" tailcode, while 419 has the "HR" (Hill Reserve); don't know yet if I'll be going, but if the AF Chief of Staff says "Bring your bird, that ex-POW of yours, and your wife's bird", we'll be there. There's going to be a lot of flying: Thunderbirds, Blue Angels, the Army's Golden Knights parachute team, plus warbirds from WW II, Korea, Vietnam, and WW III. If I could, I'd take my F-4, but the final FAA certification hasn't come yet. Mann, if you're going, look for an F-15E with the HR tailcode decked out as a Wing CO's bird. That's mine.

trekchu

You have problems with your FAA certification? Lemme make some calls. Let's see if we can't speed that up, because I am definitely going to be there.

DD951

Matt Wiser said: Southeast Asia messes...didn't some of the Chinese warlords turn to piracy when they got a hold of some PLA-Navy ships and subs? ISTR a CNN story from mid '91 where 7th Fleet had to blockade some island-Hainan, I think, because the local air and naval commanders had gone marauder. Just like those fundie types in Yemen, charging tolls to get into or out of the Red Sea, until Nimitz launched some air strikes, and Salem gave them 350+ 8-inch rounds....Indonesia (or what calls itself Indonesia) has piracy trouble as well, and we all know what's going on with Somalia....

....951, when did Turner Joy get women? Just about every Navy ship during the war, except for subs, had female officers and crew.

Anybody else seen the alternate histories that have come out in the last few years, you know, the ones that ask "what if there'd been no World War III?" With a Whimper, Not a Bang, is the one that has the Cold War ending in the late '80s and early '90s, without a shot being fired, due to a reformist leader in Moscow letting things open up. Isn't there one or two that have the Cold War still going on?

Yeah, the SE Asia messes- we were out there for about 8 months- escorting merchies who were being attacked by pirates, helping the Phillipines retake the Spratlys from a bunch of Vietnamese diehards- took down a a couple Vietnamese PT boats there, shooting up some pirate land bases in the former PRC & Indonesia, and even sunk or captured a few pirate fishing boats & power boats. The warlord ex-PLAN pirates were pretty nasty- actually a lot like the nastier auxillary units- they'd often capture ships, kill the men, children, and old women, but keep the younger adult women for their own purposes- basically they had the same playbooks the Soviets dud. The warships they had- a whole assortment of FAC types, and even a couple Anshan and Luda destroyers- kept the RAN, U.S. forces in SE Asia, and the Taiwanese busy for a couple years- there was a nasty fight where a couple of US destroyers, William C. Lawe and Mullinnix, along with a few Taiwanese Fletchers and Gearings got fairly shot up in a melee with a flotilla of pirate FACs and an Anshan destroyer. The subs weren't that big of a problem as between the Taiwanese, some air-strikes, and agressive use of a P-3 squadron, the subs under pirate-warlord control were taken out fairly quickly as far as I know, not that many of the ones they had were operational. The Hainan blockade finally broke them, but that was after I left active duty.

As for women, we were one of the first ships to get them- there were two, Laurel Sakamoto and Kristina Swensen, among the batch of newly-commissioned NROTC cadets sent to commission her that I was part of. Both of them were assigned to the communications department. Those two were the only two we had until there was a big personnel rotation in mid-1986- Captain Richardson was promoted to take command of the new cruiser Thomas S. Gates, and took Swensen with him. (Unfortunately, neither of them survived the war- the Gates got hit by a trio of Shipwrecks during an attack on the America CVBG and went down with all hands.) After some modifications to the crew quarters, we generally had about 4 women as junior officers, and about 3 dozen enlisted women, most of whom were assigned to communications, or as radar & sonar operators. Sakamoto stayed on for the entire war, and eventually became the communications officer, as well as the most senior of the female officers.

I've heard about some of those alternate histories, and I don't think they're all that plausible. I mean, we all know exactly how ruthless and fanatical the hard-liners that ran the Soviet Union were, and those writers haven't really given a satisfactory explanation how any truly credible potential reformist leaders could have gotten into power, without being purged beforehand, or being quickly deposed. Besides, from what we've learned postwar, by the 80's, the USSR was so broke and internally fouled up that they were at the point where either some sort of foreign adventurism to distract the populace and refill the treasury by looting other countries was needed, or discontent and economic distress was going to get to the point where even the savage and ruthless internal repression the Soviets were willing to use wasn't going to be enough to prevent a general revolt, and the Soviet leadership probably wasn't about to let that happen- after all, they'd certainly be familiar enough with the personal consequences of that, given all the revolutions they helped engineer over the years. Furthermore, that repression was probably what was keeping the USSR together for so long, and the changes a reformist would make would probably cause the Soviet Union to disintigrate. Considering how messy the disintigration of the communist block, the USSR, and the falls of communist governments were, their dying convulsions probably would have sparked a bunch of regional wars all throughout Eastern Europe and the USSR.

Matt Wiser

Thanks for the offer, and I'll need it. The main issue isn't with the inspector, it's a FAA attitude that says "You warbird jockeys don't need working radars. That's what ATC is for." Well, ATC sometimes misses those Cessnas and Beechcrafts flying around, and sometimes the extra pair of eyes in back doesn't catch 'em. A working radar would be a plus in that. The inspector actually agrees with me that I do need the radar, especially in airspace like the L.A. area, which is pretty crowded. I doubt the F-4 will be ready in time for the Victory Day show at Scott anyway, but if that last issue with the FAA can be taken care of, that'd be neat. Since Mann's got an A-7, he doesn't have to worry about that problem...but there's at least four other Phantoms in private hands now, and we've all got the same problem. What are they worried about at the FAA anyway with us F-4 guys having working radars? We threw out the missile fire-control stuff anyway, and it's not like the radar's powerful enough to interfere with an airliner.

Watch for Lt. Col. Kelly Ann Ray's bird when you guys get to Scott: She'll be there, and her F-15E will have the POW-MIA emblem for nose art. She wants to advertise that an ex-POW drives this airplane. My wing CO's bird will have all fifteen red stars painted on the side. Lisa's will have 12, as she was my second WSO-my previous one and I had three before having to go skydiving over southern Colorado. We even had a decal manufactuer come by both Hill and Mountain Home during the movie filming; they got pics of my Wing CO's bird, Kelly Ann's, Lisa's and Kara Sackhoff's. The decal sheet's going to be titled "Mountain West F-15Es: Hill and Mountain Home." All three scales: 1/32, 1/48, and 1/72, so Modelers beware!

Looks like some in the FER are asking about MIAs: Lisa got a letter postmarked Ulan-Ude, FER today. The writer's brother was an Su-24 navigator shot down over New Mexico in 1986, and he was asking for any info on Su-24s that she (he thought a Wing CO was a pilot) had shot down. We're checking our logbooks for an Su-24 loss that corresponds to this writer's info: 7/24/86, near the Plains of San Augustin (the VLA radio telescope array-a heavily defended area, btw). I'm pretty sure that's one of ours, but we're checking anyway, and so is Kara.

Matt Wiser

Thanks for the help, though that warbird won't be there. It won't be ready in time-working on her is a weekend only project-when there's no reserve time. One of the Community Colleges in Salt Lake has an aircraft maintenance department though, and they're giving her a through going over as a class project. We'll just take our F-15Es to Scott.

Hey 951, was Hong Kong still as wide open as it was before? My cousin Jacqui (CO, VA-165 on Nimitz) says things are pretty back to normal-Taiwan didn't want it back in '97, too much on their plate as it was, so the Brits maintain control to the present, and the Portuguese kept Macao, with Canton being a local version of Beirut for a while, until the Brits decided enough was enough, (refugees, stray artillery fire, etc.) and occupied Canton. Incidentally, SAC staged some of the Eastern Express Missions via Hong Kong-tankers flew out of Kai Tak IAP on many occasions to refuel the bombers over the heart of China, and the CIA station there had a nasty little mini-war with both the KGB and GRU. (both sides fished bodies out of the harbor quite often) Jacqui's enlisted sailors say Hong Kong's still a great liberty port, whatever that means to an AF guy.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: Thanks for the help, though that warbird won't be there. It won't be ready in time-working on her is a weekend only project-when there's no reserve time. One of the Community Colleges in Salt Lake has an aircraft maintenance department though, and they're giving her a through going over as a class project. We'll just take our F-15Es to Scott.

Damn. I was hoping to see your F-4 again. Oh well. My A-7 is being flown up by a guy who was my squadron XO back during the war who I kept in touch with, it'll be there, though it isn't performing. I'm personally taking my F-22 there, along with four other pilots including the squadron CO. We're also sending two F-111Fs, which are doing the close air support demonstration. Be forewarned - you know what a F-4 doing a bombing run looks and sounds like, the Vark doing it is a lot bigger and louder....

Panzerfaust 150

Matt Wiser said: Panzerfaust, has the FER been invited to this symposium you're headed to on POW-MIA matters? I would reckon they would have info on some of the SAC losses over Siberia-or maybe not, if they're not entirely in control of some regions. No doubt they have MIAs whose homes are now in their territory, and families asking for info on their loved ones. Who's technically in charge there, anyway? I remember reading that Marshal Konstantinov got himself killed trying to lead one of his armies over the Urals to get into European Russia, and the FER had their own civil war for a while as a result. Technically, the FER's still run by the military, correct? But with all this Japanese and ROK influence....At least nobody popped a nuke during all that unpleasantness.

Yep, they're gonna be there, and my diplo credentials arrived...they're holding it in March..St. Petersburg in March...can we say damn cold?

Matt Wiser

Russia in March....as they used to say on Hogan's Heroes, "Take plenty of winter clothing." Any specific topics up for discussion, or is this the first of several meetings? I'd bet there's several unexplained SAC losses that are up for resolution, among other things. Not to mention the "special camp" at Baikanour that was supposedly there for the NASA people....And on the other side, there's quite a few vets now getting letters from Russia or the FER asking about MIA cases. Kara got one today from Smolensk, asking about a MiG-23 pilot missing since 1988 over Texas; a father asking about one of his sons.

Yeah, you're not the only one disappointed the F-4 won't be ready in time, but a local debut at either Hill or Mountain Home, OTOH...And Mann, you will see Lt. Col. Kelly Ann Ray at Scott: we've been told all four of our Beagles will be in close proximity on the ramp. Just look for the two Wing CO birds from the 366th and the 419th. Lisa's F-15E has the squadron markings from the 391st TFS, the Bold Tigers.

Farthest west I've been was Isley AFB on Saipan for a two-week reserve deployment. We flew against the 36th TFW from Andersen AFB on Guam-and those guys didn't flinch. They're supposed to get F-22s in a year or two. But did we get our licks in? You bet. And we've got the gun-camera footage to prove it.

[lordroel]

From page 64

JN1

Matt,
Nice to hear about Hong Kong, from personal experience I know that it is a great posting.
I transferred over to the Territorial Army from the HSF after the war when I was offered a commission (a friend conveniently lost my medical records ). I ended up in my local yeomanry regiment, which sent a reinforced troop to HK to serve with the resident RAC squadron.
I've also been seconded for a year to the colony's government. It's a very enjoyable and rewarding posting for a Civil Servant. During my time there I was also attached to the Royal Hong Kong Regiment (The Volunteers) as a squadron 2.i.c. They were a great bunch of lads to worth with, extremely enthusiastic and very well trained.
The regiment still had Ferret armoured cars when I joined, though they received six Foxes by the time by the time I left.

The Gurkhas still make up the majority of the infantry part of the HK garrison these days, with one British battalion rotating in and out along with an armoured squadron equipped with the CVR(T) family.

sloreck

Matt - funny you should mention Isely, my dad flew B-29's out of there in WW2.

Spent some time in Yokuska as XO of the Naval Hospital there. My (2nd) wife & I & our kids got to travel a fair amount. Saw lots of Japan (Nippon subarashi desu), Korea, Hong Kong & Taiwan. Before I got remarried CATF surgeon for an ATF doing a a WESTPAC sort of showing the flag around (as in "we're baaaack"). Some of our Marines got to do some boardings in the South China Sea dealing with pirates (as DD951 talked about).

Anyways, we had 2 weeks in Perth where the grunts did some dry land stuff with the Aussies and since I was CATF (not MAGTF) staff on that cruise, I had lots of leisure time & liberty. Found out that even Aussie sheilas can drink you under the table, and then......well this is a family board so I'll say no more.

Matt Wiser

Didn't they get some heavy armor when the Brits decided enough was enough and occupied Canton? I was at Luke AFB transitioning to the F-15E when that happened, and I remember the news footage of Challengers rumbling through the Chinese countryside. The warlords didn't have anything to stop 'em, and those guns ripped Type-59s apart like a hot knife thru butter (they also wasted some T-34s and JS-3s too-a pity as those were museum pieces) A side benefit to taking Canton was that it helped a lot with the piracy issue-seems some of the pirates in the South China Sea had Canton as their home port. Jacqui was Ops Officer of VA-52 on Carl Vinson when that happened: she told me that 7th Fleet offered to help, but the Brits declined. They sailed off towards Singapore to help deal with some of the pirate nests in Indonesia when the carrier was turned back. Seems the British reconsidered the offer, and two days later, they're flying strikes into the Canton area. The A-6s and Hornets were pretty busy for a week or so. Why Ivan didn't nuke Canton, nobody knows, unless the missile targeted on the city didn't fuze or something. But the Soviets blasted the PRC big time when that went down. Anyone here seen the Google Earth or Digital Globe images of what used to be Beijing or Shanghai? (shudder) And the images of what used to be the PRC's ICBM bases look like the surface of the moon....

Well, we're leaving tomorrow for Scott: the show starts on Friday, and they want everyone there at least 24 hours before. Safety briefs for those flying, practice for the T-Birds, Blue Angels, etc., you name it. And there'll be some war trophies on display: MiG-29s, Su-24s, Su-25s, Hinds, you name it. A couple of 'em may fly, too.

Now that the Hurricane season's winding down, Bob Ballard's going back to the Gulf of Mexico to look for the Kirov. NOAA really wants to see if there's any radiation leakage from the wreck, and Ballard wants to do a full photo survey of her. And see if the rumors the book Blind Man's Bluff raised are true: that Naval Intelligence has already been to the wreck and pulled some stuff off of her.

DD951

Never got to Hong Kong myself, but had a buddy on the Tattnall, which did around that time, and he said that things were pretty much as they were- Soviets & their allies didn't bother the place during the war, except for a couple merchies that got picked off by passing submarines and the spy war. Some of the warlords & pirates did poke around the place, but the Brits saw them off without too much trouble- guess those characters found the free-for-all chaos of Canton more conducive to their activities.

Did get to Macao, and it, was well, an interesting place as you might expect- did have a little over four dozen sailors up at Captain's Mast for coming back from liberty intoxicated, with illegal tatoos, carrying contraband, with their uniforms trashed, or running afoul of the SPs or local cops.

As for being a great liberty port for the men, generally means that there's a lot of ways to get drunk, laid, and pick up interesting stuff for cheap in the port, although that's somewhat vicarious knowledge, as a lot of those things involve activities that aren't exactly becoming of an officer and a gentleman, if you get what I mean....

JN1

Matt,
There was a regiment of Challenger 1s assigned to the garrison in HK, 1 RTR, IIRC, for a while. They were used when we occupied Canton, but in the end we decided that they were too heavy for most roads and bridges in the region.
With the right ammunition the Scorpions and Scimitars assigned to the armoured squadron were a serious threat to any Chinese tank. Plus the squadron had a troop equipped with eight Strikers; their Swingfire missiles will make a real mess of anything that the Chinese warlords have. These days the Army Air Corps has a squadron of Apache AH.1s based at RAF Sek Kong.

Matt Wiser

Well, I'm at Scott, and the O-Club is pretty busy. The last time this place had so many visiting aircrew was that first Victory Day air show in 1990, so the barkeep says-and he's been here for all of 'em. Lisa and Kara got here ahead of Me and Kelly Ann (we had to drive down to Hill from Utah-so the first two F-15Es were well on their way when we got to the base), but we're all set up near a C-5M from Travis AFB. Just after we arrived, the Thunderbirds did a low-level flyby before they landed, and those F-16s are a pretty sight. Then the Blue Angels arrived, and the Golden Knights in their C-31 (Fokker F-27 Friendship) showed up after that. Right across from us is one of the Wyoming ANG's C-130 "Bombers." Remember, those guys who rolled bombs and artillery shells out the cargo bays of their Herky-birds? They're getting brand new C-130Js, but one of the old C-130Es is still going to be around as a flying museum. Some warbirds also arrived, the B-25s that were regunned and flew in Arkansas and Missouri, a couple of P-51s that were also regunned-one of 'em is the Hip-killer, and that old gentleman with his Sopwith Camel-he and his family are here-I wonder how they enjoyed the Gulfstream ride? Haven't seen Mann and his F-22 yet, but he'll show. But then again, it's pretty crowded. The only F-22s we've seen yet are the ones from the 1st TFW out of Langley AFB near Hampton Roads-the ones with the "FF" tailcode.

Did anyone catch CNN this morning? They had a crew down in Caracas, interviewing those behind the "comedy hour", as we like to call it. Even after all this time, they're still defiant, maintaining that they were on "the people's side", and that the ComBloc's defeat "was a sad day for humanity." One of them said that Victory Day "is the day Fascism won and mankind lost." Ugh....they still make me puke, even after twenty-plus years. One of these days, that radio station ought to eat either a JDAM or a cruise missile (or a dozen-just leave it a smoking hole in the ground). FYI they also had a crew in Mexico City, and the lefties there are saying the same thing. Someday....those idiots will have to run somewhere else, because the M-1s will be knocking on Mexico City's door.

Oh, guess who was also on base? He was surrounded by a bunch of guys in black suits and ray-bans, but there was no mistaking him: Col. Ernesto Bella, Cuban Army (ret.). He and his family were getting a tour from the base CO here, and they stopped by where our F-15Es were parked. Col. Bella was a little nervous about meeting Lt. Col. Kelly Ann Ray, but she said "You're not one of them, so I guess you're OK." He told me that the last time we saw each other, I was reaching for an AKM to drill him in that diner in Sallida, CO, along with several other evadees. Col. Bella remarked that it was unusual to have a husband-and-wife team who run fighter wings, but I told him to look across the tarmac, as Col. Cindy Moreau and her husband each flew their own B-52s, from Castle and Mather, respectively, to the show. "The tactical fighter community's not alone in that department, Colonel. Look at SAC over there." He also said that he's not going back to Cuba, even though Fidel's gone and Raoul's in the slammer. But he did say the next time he sees Raoul, it'll be at

Matt Wiser

Well, I'm on my laptop on the tarmac at Scott, and man, this place is busy! The Thunderbirds took off not too long ago for their practice, and everybody stopped what they're doing to watch. Base personnel, those of us here for the show, VIPs, even the Blue Angels are watching. Even though it's a practice, man, it's great. My only complaint is they're Viper drivers. Albino Eagles (C models) would be much, much better as T-Bird mounts.

Well, the POW-MIA Center called me before I left Hill: seems some kids playing by the Trinity River south of Dallas found wreckage of an F-4E. The plane was excavated, and it was my former CO's bird. Looks like from what they've found so far that he never did eject, and went in with the plane. His wife lives in some town south of Pittsburgh, and looks like Lisa and I will be going to another funeral soon.

I think I saw Mann's F-22 and the F-111 show up this morning. Haven't been able to get over there yet, but I'll show up. Still looking for his A-7, though.

Anyone looked around Canton since the British moved in and look for a dud ICBM warhead? From a Soviet POV, targeting Canton did make some sense. Or is the countryside still too wild for a NEST team (or their British counterparts)?

Matt Wiser

OK, guys, the welcome party in a C-141 hangar just wrapped up, with reminders for everyone to obey the 12-hour rule! There's about a hundred aircraft here, not counting the demo teams (T-Birds, Blue Angels, plus the USAF, Navy, and Marine Corps Heritage Flights: ever see a P-51, P-47, F-86, F-4, F-15, F-16, and F-22 all in the same flight? If not, you're missing a treat). We've got a mix of B-52s here: J models only a year or two old, a few surviving Gs (the 97th BW at Eaker AFB in Arkansas still has 'em, but they'll be getting Js next year, so this is the G's swan song), and some Hs that are a combination of original and war-built models. The B-1s are here from Ellsworth and Grand Forks, while B-2s from Whiteman are going to be flying by each day of the show. And there's TACAIR from all over: Albino Eagles, Beagles from not just us and the 366th, but the "4th but 1st", my old wing, Vipers, A-10s, F-111s, and Raptors. Throw in the Navy, Marines, a few Canadians, and even some RAF guys who stopped by on the way home from a Red Flag (Tornados from the Dambusters-617 Squadron). It's going to be a great show.

Hey Mann: I saw you, but didn't get a chance to talk to you. Seems there were quite a few Marines ribbing you about leaving the Corps for the AF. Btw, check the nose gear wheel well on your F-22: Kara left a tag there: a 366th TFW decal stuck to the inside of the wheel well. And Kelly Ann left a 419 one on the inside of the left nose gear door. If you ever come west to use the range at either Wendover or Nellis, us "Weekend Warriors" in the 419th will be happy to arrange a proper western welcome. And have we flown against Raptors? You bet: the Fighter Weapons School at Nellis has a few.

Sloreck: If your dad could see it, he wouldn't recognize the place. Isley AFB is modern, with two 15,000 foot runways. Lots of ramp space and hardened shelters for the 450th TFW's F-15Es and F-16s, and they share the base with the Army Aviation for IX Corps, so lots of AH-64s, UH-60s, and CH-47s on their side of the base. Kobler Field in the northern part of the island is the civilian international airport, but the Northern Marinas ANG has a facility there-no flying unit, but they do want to become a flying unit and at least get C-130s.

JN1

Matt,
I can't say too much about it, but during my first tour in HK my troop was part of the escort for some boffins. The rumor mill said that they were from Aldermaston, the place where British nukes are built.
I'm afraid I can't say whether they found anything though.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: OK, guys, the welcome party in a C-141 hangar just wrapped up, with reminders for everyone to obey the 12-hour rule!

Yeah, I have to avoid violating that rule, but tonight I stayed off the alcohol. I gotta fly tomorrow, and I'd like to make fun of the guys who drank too much and aren't at 100% tomorrow. There always is a few.

Matt Wiser said: There's about a hundred aircraft here, not counting the demo teams (T-Birds, Blue Angels, plus the USAF, Navy, and Marine Corps Heritage Flights: ever see a P-51, P-47, F-86, F-4, F-15, F-16, and F-22 all in the same flight? If not, you're missing a treat).

With me in the F-22, and my former backseater in the F-16. It was good to see Alan again, boy. The last time him and I met in person is when we were both F-16 jockeys, and that was a LONG time ago. He's still a black kid from Detroit when he's in the F-16, showing off like crazy. I gotta imagine that the ATC guys must have had a Hernia or two when he did that aileron roll over the Mustang flyer. And yeah, it's humbling to see just how far technology has come. Though its even more humbling to see the aerobatics guys showing off. And I'd forgotten how loud Fat Albert is when he's using the JATO bottles to do a fast takeoff.....:cool:

Matt Wiser said: We've got a mix of B-52s here: J models only a year or two old, a few surviving Gs (the 97th BW at Eaker AFB in Arkansas still has 'em, but they'll be getting Js next year, so this is the G's swan song), and some Hs that are a combination of original and war-built models. The B-1s are here from Ellsworth and Grand Forks, while B-2s from Whiteman are going to be flying by each day of the show.

Yeah, the row of bombers should have a pic taken of them, then sent to the Mexicans and the other Reds still out there, just to say "We haven't forgotten the past, and your fate is coming. It's in the bomb bay, courtesy of the United States Air Force."

I noticed that Cleopatra is here, too - The B-1B with the all-female flight crew. Still has that all-female flight crew, too, and they are still ridiculously good looking, and that B-1 still flies well. One of them recognized me from the old days, too. I hadn't flown with the ladies since Brownsville, but they still knew me. My guess is that one of them saw the callsign on the Raptor and thought "is that the same flier?" and it was. The lead on Cleopatra is apparently in line for a star on her shoulder too. I wonder how some of the old dogs woulda thought of that, a female general.

Matt Wiser said: And there's TACAIR from all over: Albino Eagles, Beagles from not just us and the 366th, but the "4th but 1st", my old wing, Vipers, A-10s, F-111s, and Raptors. Throw in the Navy, Marines, a few Canadians, and even some RAF guys who stopped by on the way home from a Red Flag (Tornados from the Dambusters-617 Squadron). It's going to be a great show.

And you forgot our special guests from the other side of the Atlantic, remember? The SAAF sent four of their nice new Tornados out there, too. the flight leader is that South African kid who was flying feet over the water in the Caribbean, and now 20 years later is a Colonel commanding the SAAF's elite 2 Squadron. His daughter is a SAAF pilot too, apparently. They aren't doing anything too crazy, because they've only had the Tornados a few weeks and haven't fully gotten to know them yet. Sensible chap.

So those RAF boys are from the Dambusters? Oh, I bet they'll have a show for us. Did they bring any ordinance with them? The Dambusters were on when I was in Europe. They expended a fleet of captured Soviet Armor by blowing them up with the Tornados for a demonstration. What a show that was. I hope somebody has something for them to blow up, and that everybody in the vicinity has earplugs.

And yeah, it's gonna be a great show. I was watching the Thunderbirds, Blue Angels and Snowbirds (they got F/A-18s for the Snowbirds now too) practice and was awed by it. I mean, I have lots of time in several different aircraft types and am no slouch, but those guys got me covered, and I am not ashamed to say that, braggadocio be damned.

Matt Wiser said: Hey Mann: I saw you, but didn't get a chance to talk to you. Seems there were quite a few Marines ribbing you about leaving the Corps for the AF.

Yeah, the jarheads were ribbing me about being a blue-suiter now. My response to the Marine pilots was that I am reaping the rewards of that decision now, flying the greatest plane in our arsenal and commanding a fighter wing instead of listening to some jarhead rant about needing close air support. They couldn't really top that, so they went out and ribbed my old buddy in the F-16s. It seems he gave 'em kinda the same response, too. I saw you too, but I was busy with Alan and the South Africans, not to mention the base commander and those jarheads, to get out there and see you. My bad. I'll fix that tommorrow.

Matt Wiser said: Btw, check the nose gear wheel well on your F-22: Kara left a tag there: a 366th TFW decal stuck to the inside of the wheel well.

My crew chief pointed that one out to me, and I musta admit my first thought was "where is that son of a......" At least you put it in a spot my crew chief isn't gonna be too angry about.

And by the way, check your Eagle's right rear nose gear door. There is a 354th TFW decal on the inside of your nose gear door. I know that little trick, too.

Matt Wiser said: And Kelly Ann left a 419 one on the inside of the left nose gear door.

I eyeballed her doing that, but got stopped by the base commander before I could catch up to her. That kinda bummed me, Major - excuse me, Lieutenant Colonel - Ray is my kinda flier, my kinda woman in general. I always like meeting such people.

Matt Wiser said: If you ever come west to use the range at either Wendover or Nellis, us "Weekend Warriors" in the 419th will be happy to arrange a proper western welcome. And have we flown against Raptors? You bet: the Fighter Weapons School at Nellis has a few.

I will take you up on that sometime, Matt. And I'll be glad to kick your ass, I assure you. I may have a star on my shoulder and a kid flying Talons, but I can still fly that F-22 better than just about all of my pilots, and I know my Southern girl very well, thank you.

Matt Wiser said: Sloreck: If your dad could see it, he wouldn't recognize the place. Isley AFB is modern, with two 15,000 foot runways. Lots of ramp space and hardened shelters for the 450th TFW's F-15Es and F-16s, and they share the base with the Army Aviation for IX Corps, so lots of AH-64s, UH-60s, and CH-47s on their side of the base. Kobler Field in the northern part of the island is the civilian international airport, but the Northern Marinas ANG has a facility there-no flying unit, but they do want to become a flying unit and at least get C-130s.

I was in reading the AF times today, and one of the guys commanding out trash-hauler fleet says that the Northern Marianas ANG has 3 C-9B and 8 KC-135R aircraft on the way. They are gonna become a flier unit, apparently to help the Navy guys get stuff back and forth from Subic Bay, Yokosuka, Hiroshima and Kaohsiung to Hawaii and the lower 48.

Matt Wiser


Well, the first day's over and done, and man, a ton of flying! You didn't just see the regular Heritage Flights do their flybys, but SAC debuted one as well: first time I've seen a B-17G, B-24J, B-29 ("Fifi" from the CAF), B-52G, B-52H, and B-1B come over, one after another. Too bad the G model Buffs are going to the boneyard next year...those birds belong in museums instead of baking in the desert. And I noticed Cleopatra, too. Those gals still are lookers in their flight suits. Of course, all three teams, plus the Golden Knights, and the various demos from TAC, plus the Navy and Marines meant there wasn't any time when someone was in the air. The Cobra Chicks (4-229 Aviation) arrived this morning with a pair of AH-64Ds and a Blackhawk, and that unit is still all-female. By choice, apparently. But when you see their record during and since the war, can't argue with success. They apparently hand-pick everyone who wants to join the unit, so they get the best.

Yeah, my WSO and I found that decal. We'll keep it on until after the show, then the crew chief back at Hill will remove it. Kelly Ann was the subject of a lot of attention: seems Showtime's been promoting the movie, and she's been signing autographs, doing some TV interviews for St. Louis and Chicago TV, etc. One thing is that patches and decals for the 366th, the 419th, and our respective squadrons are selling like hotcakes.

Anybody catch the VIP stands? Medal of Honor winners from WW II, Korea, Vietnam, and WW III, Senators and Congresscritters (many of whom are vets), and a ton of brass.

Well, if a dud ICBM warhead was found, it's something nobody would want to advertise. It might make the warlords want to see if there's another-something that would make the British Far Eastern Commander stay up nights. At least nobody's worried about any loose Chinese nukes: the Soviets slagged the known nuclear-weapons storage areas hard. I saw in an Air War College report when I was there about that subject that one particular target-a storage site for IRBM warheads (as an example)-took two fully-MIRVed SS-17s. That's 6 550 KT warheads on each missile. To say nothing of the actual launch sites for their IRBMs and ICBMs. The Google Earth images of those targets look like the surface of the moon, even 24 years later....

JN1

Talking of the Dambusters, last I heard they were flying Lancer B.1s (the British version of the B-1B), rather than Tornado GR.4s. Got a picture of one of their aircraft somewhere.

They actually took out some dams in the western USSR with them during the war.

Here we are, knew I had one:


Matt Wiser

That's strange, because the lead Tornado has 617's insignia painted beneath the pilot's name beneath the canopy. Unless he did a tour with 617 and their B-1s before going to Tornados....thus we assumed the Tornados were from 617. Unless there's a reserve unit flying on 617's base, perhaps?

Again, the end-of-day party wrapped up a couple of hours ago, with the usual exhortations to observe the 12-hour rule! Those of us from either the 366th or the 419th are static display only, but when a flight surgeon tells everyone to observe the rule, you do so out of habit. And I think this is the first party where any of the Cobra Chicks (a) didn't drink the place dry, and (b) kept their clothes on. (there's a first time for everything) Lt. Col. Kristen Vansen knows their unit's history, and their reputation on and off the battlefield follows them anyplace they go. They just got back from occupation duty in Cuba, and only had 48 hours' notice of the show.

There's a lot of tagging going around, so Mann, be warned: the guys flying Albino Eagles have no love lost for you Raptor folks. The 33rd down at Eglin and the ANG's 131st from Lambert Field in St. Louis have been tagging inside the wheel wells of every F-22 they can find. They don't like us Strike Eagles either: we found decals from both outfits in the main gear wheel wells of all four of our Beagles. The feeling's mutual, and the favor has been returned.

The two top Navy Aces are here, both are now retired, but one still flies as a test pilot for Grummann, so they came in a company F-14 that's used for test work. Too bad Paul Belliard isn't around: the top ace overall with 49 kills died in a T-38 crash after his first shuttle flight. The top female aces are here as well: both AF and Navy gals are here-the former's an F-15 instructor pilot for the Oregon ANG, the latter's a Super Hornet squadron CO at NAS Cecil Field. The AF gal has 24 kills, the Navy gal 23. You go, ladies! The only ace not here's the top F-4 driver, Col. John Schriver: he had 27; he's normally a crop-duster in Indiana, but flew for the Indiana ANG out of Fort Wayne. He did make the Phantom Phanatics get-together in San Antonio earlier this year. I tried recruiting the Albino Eagle gal to join the 419th, but her CO wants her to take over the ANG's Albino Eagles at Portland. Ah, well, you can't win 'em all.

Anyone notice the camera crew following Cleopatra's crew around? They the subject of a documentary in progress or what? There's been a lot of attention to the female aircrews this year for some reason: not just Kelly Ann, but both Lisa and Kara have been interviewed repeatedly by local and national media, and the same goes for a lot of the others. They asked me "How's it feel to be married to a wing commander?" And I reply "Ask my wife. Whatever she says, I feel the same way." Some of 'em didn't know that we're the first married couple in the AF to be wing COs, even if one of the two is running a reserve wing. Colonel Moreau and her husband have been getting the same treatment.

JN1

It's probably one of two things. Either as you suggest its someone who is ex-617 Squadron, or its a 'Zap'. 617 was one of the first squadrons to operate the old GR.1 before it re-equipped with the Lancer in the early '80s.

JN1

NEWS FLASH!

Just heard something from a friend in the regular army (being regimental adjutant has some advantages). Apparently a Chinese warlord has launched an armoured incursion into the Canton area of the HK Crown Colony (we formally anexed it, plus the New Territories in '99).
The raid ran into a company of Gurkhas; from 1st Battalion, 7th Duke of Edinburgh's Own Gurkha Rifles I believe; which fought them to a stand-still and held on long enough until RAF Harrier GR.9s and AAC Apache AH.1s arrived and cut the Chinese to pieces.

This raid has been taken very seriously - one of the Gurkha battalions from Brunei is currently in the air heading for HK, as is the Spearhead battalion in the UK (currently 1 Royal Scots). My pal tells me that 24th Airmobile Brigade has been put on alert for deployment to HK.

The warlord who chose to launch this raid better watch out as it looks like we are getting ready to launch a punitive raid in retaliation.

[lordroel]

From page 65

TheMann

JN1's not joking. My Executive Officer just called me, telling me that the USAF is going to Defcon 4, watching out for any responses to Britain's raids. Damn it, I hope they don't cut my vacation short here.

DD951

JN1 said: NEWS FLASH!

Just heard something from a friend in the regular army (being regimental adjutant has some advantages). Apparently a Chinese warlord has launched an armoured incursion into the Canton area of the HK Crown Colony (we formally anexed it, plus the New Territories in '99).
The raid ran into a company of Gurkhas; from 1st Battalion, 7th Duke of Edinburgh's Own Gurkha Rifles I believe; which fought them to a stand-still and held on long enough until RAF Harrier GR.9s and AAC Apache AH.1s arrived and cut the Chinese to pieces.

This raid has been taken very seriously - one of the Gurkha battalions from Brunei is currently in the air heading for HK, as is the Spearhead battalion in the UK (currently 1 Royal Scots). My pal tells me that 24th Airmobile Brigade has been put on alert for deployment to HK.

The warlord who chose to launch this raid better watch out as it looks like we are getting ready to launch a punitive raid in retaliation.
That stuff is still going on in China?! Wonder if they're ever going to rebuild what's left of their country, or if because of some humanitarian disaster or some warlord finally pushing too far, they're going to get carved into spheres of foreign influence like they were before WW IIr?

Matt Wiser

I just got off the phone with a friend at PACCOM: the AF alert is geared mainly to Pacific Command: the two wings that were in Korea prewar are now based in Taiwan, and they're on alert. So is the 36th TFW on Guam, the 450th on Saipan, and the 18th TFW on Okinawa, along with the 43rd Bomb Wing on Guam. It's a Pacific Command alert only, fellas. Don't be surprised, though, if a carrier gets moved to the Hong Kong-Canton area "as a precaution." Cell phones are nice, btw, as are friends in the right places (F-4 RTS classmate).Incidentally, there were 36 of us in our RTS class (3-84) before the war. There's 16 of us left.

Mann: it was nice finally to meet you in person. Hope you didn't mind talking with a reservist. A lot of regular AF types (or regulars in any service branch, for that matter) don't like reservists, even though in many cases, we've got more experience over time than the regulars. Still having 1/4 to 1/3 of my air and ground crew having wartime experience is a plus, and we're not the only unit with that advantage. For an ex-Jarhead, you're pretty cool, even for one who's a Brig. General. At least you haven't let the fact that you've got a star go to your head-unlike some folks I've served with. And I hope you don't mind spending some time with a fella who's primary mission is air-to-mud: making things on the ground burn, bleed, and blow up (in no particular order, of course!). And working things out with the 366th is no big problem-I ask my wife to solve a problem on her end if the issue involves her wing and us. Too bad her opposite number across the ramp at Hill-the 388th TFW-isn't as understanding: he's an Academy grad, and has little use for reservists, OCS grads, or both. Fortunately his XO is an ROTC grad, so he's much more understanding. We're both counting the days until the 388th's change-of-command ceremony.

Anyone see the Cobra Chicks' demo today? Those gals know how to drive their helos. If they were nasty back in the day as Cobra drivers, imagine how they'd be today in their Longbow Apaches. And they still paint a cobra head prominently on their AH-64s; unit pride, I'd say. I mingled around, and talked with Lt. Col. Vansen, their CO (she's Monica Vansen's younger sister, btw), and they still have a few wartime fliers in the unit-gals who are CWO-4 and still flying. And yes, she's well aware of her unit's reputation, and that videos shot during the war of their off-duty...adventures, shall we say, have made it to youtube. Kelly Ann Ray was with me, and she remarked, "Join the club," referring to her party in Key West.

There were a few war trophies on display: MiG-29, MiG-23, Su-17, Su-24, Su-25, and Mi-24 being the most notable. They also have on display a few wrecks, and the MiG-25 wreck on display was Libyan-and it was my kill! I recognized the Libyan serial number as the MiG-25 I nailed at Cannon AFB a week into PRAIRIE FIRE, and saw the wreck after we retook Cannon. Small world....I thought it'd been scrapped by now, but AF intelligence got a hold of the wreck for examination, and here it was today.

JN1

Well its hit the news, the BBC News Channel is running pictures of troops from 24th Airmobile Bde boarding planes at RAF Brize Norton. There isn't any footage from HK yet, the hinterland between the old crown colony and Canton is not all that safe for news crews (ITN lost one last year) and the Royal HK Police and army are not keen on wasting resources protecting journalists.
It is likely, however, that some will embed with 24th Airmobile Bde.

sloreck

Just heard from an old jarhead bud that the current WESTPAC ARG (23rd MEu I think) is moving most ricky-tick to the HK area. I'm sure our Brit friends can handle this, but it pays to be prepared, and we owe a debt to our old country allies.

Matt Wiser

Ah, the final day of the show's done. Now the post-show party gets going, before everybody flies out tomorrow. Quite a few ex-POWs were here, and Kelly Ann isn't the only one still flying; there were about a dozen still on duty-mostly reserve, but a few active duty ones still flying every day. That old fella in the Sopwith Camel did a little routine, and the AF Chief of Staff gave him his long-overdue DFC for his work during the Raven Rock mess. The two P-51s also did some flying, and that guy who flew into Williams AFB with his A-1, offering his services was also here-even though his son now flies the plane-it's back on the warbird circut.

Ever see a B-52 and a B-1 do a mock bomb run, one after the other? I hadn't, until today. Not the thing one wants to see if you're an enemy. But if you're the guys who've requested heavy iron as air support, then it's very comforting. Sure am glad SAC not only kept the Buffs, but had the good sense to order production restarted. Btw, Cleopatra's not the only all-female bomber around: One of the Buffs at the show (410th BW from K.I. Sawyer AFB up in Michigan) has an all-female crew. The pilot's a vet (she was a 1st Lt. when the war ended), but the crew has combat time-they flew in Cuba.

Three teams, plus the Golden Knights doing their jump routine-long day. And that's not including all the other flying. Sure am glad we were static display only this time around. There was a lot of attention around both the 366th Wing CO's bird, and my own bird from the 419th. All those red stars painted on the side of each bird.....Too bad my F-4 hasn't been formally certified, otherwise it'd be here as well.

So Canton's a Crown Colony along with Hong Kong? I guess the Brits didn't want to shove more troops in, otherwise they would've occupied the territory in between, unless frequent sweeps, along with the occasional "punitive expedition" are felt to be enough. What's the RAF strength in the area? I remember reading somewhere that a ship south of Taiwan reported that two MiG-19s were buzzing them, and they screamed for help. Two ROCAF F-104Gs (they still had them at that time) responded, and destroyed both MiGs. Just how many of these warlords have their own air forces? It had better be very few.

zakueins

Has anybody picked up "The Third World War-1985" by Tom Clancy? He's been working on a book for every year of the war (with about two books for '86 and '87). I've been reading the book in hardcover, and it's proven to be very interesting.

One of the big ones was that he's claims that there was recordings of the Politburo's discussions during the time, made by the head of the KGB. The big ones was that the Russians were very, very scared that if they let any sort of "liberalization" trend would cause them to be lined up against the nearest wall and shot-either by the People or more "hard-line" Communists. He quotes a statement by the head of the Agricultural Ministry-"If we just let the peasants triple their private plots, we'd have export crops of potatoes and wheat."

He also notes the GRU's assessment-that in less than four years, the USSR and Warsaw Pact couldn't win a war-nuclear or conventional-against the United States, let alone the US and NATO. There was a "window of opportunity", in the words of the KGB's head, that they could engage the enemy. He noted that there was some surprises in the technology-the accuracy of Soviet ICBMs was higher than anybody else expected, the SA-11's unique thermal/optical imaging and beam-riding guidance system that caught quite a few pilots unaware, the MiG-23 could hold it's own against early generation F-16s.

It's been a good read so far. Anybody else got it and have some opinions?

Matt Wiser

He's right about the SA-11: those things were downright nasty. One thing we always checked before going into high-threat areas was what types of SAMs we'd be up against, and if the SA-11 was on the Threat Board, you knew it could get...interesting. SA-11s were a main reason for tripping one's G-Meter on our F-4s (in our squadron, anyway). As far as the MiG-23 goes, I never ran into any of the Flogger-K version, which seems to be the one you're referring to. And I don't think anyone in our squadron did, either. The MiG-23s that we ran into in 335, and in the Marine Air Group we were attached to for the duration, were usually the MF or ML (-B or -G) version in air-to-air, but on occasion, the ground-attack version (BN or BM) would find itself in our gunsights. One of the MiG-23s I nailed was a Cuban ground-attack version, while the others were all fighters-and Soviet. Soviets, Cubans, and East Germans were all nasty in the air, the others, though....Libyans, Syrians, some Angolans, and even Mexicans, well, a very few were good, most were fair to mediocre, and some downright shouldn't have been in the cockpit at all.

Speaking of Clancy, doesn't he have access to sources that most authors still don't have? He's talked to defectors who are still in witness protection if I'm not mistaken. A lot of writers in and out of government have said it was that failed Soviet harvest in 1983-84 that made the Politburo decide on war. And the paranoid old men in the Kremlin were afraid that if they did liberalize, the whole Soviet system as they knew it would be over. Hence sending the liberalizers to the Gulag if unfortunate, or a firing squad if not. And those men in the Kremlin are wholly responsible for all the death and destruction that resulted. Some of those AHs that have the Cold War just petering out in the late '80s or early '90s seem a bit naive, given Soviet character as we all know, don't you think?

Well, the party's just wrapped, and next year's Victory Day show will be at Scott for the last time, and that's the prelude to the following year, because D.C's supposed to reopen, and Andrews AFB will be the permanent home of the show. For those of you who did make it to Scott, it's been fun meeting you, and for those who didn't, well, try and make it next year.

zakueins

It was the -K and -M spec of MiG-23 (checked his footnotes-he quoted the Osprey MiG-23 vs. F-16 book that came out a few years ago and some of the declass AF reports). And, he also cited a few reports of the SA-11, I think your name showed up, too.

He cites a lot of interviews and such, including the Petrecov Archives (remember when the news was made public-eight huge steamer cases of microfilms from about '81 to '97, and one of the requirements that he gave the CIA was that the entire war history was to be made public within two years). The war vote was almost entirely on age lines-the "old guard" voted for war, the "new guard" voted against, and most of the "against" were proposing some very moderate reforms.

He cites a lot of defector information, as well. Apparently, he did nearly three years on just the interviews alone.

Matt Wiser

I haven't spoken with him, but if he's got access to after-action reports, then I'm not surprised my name came up. That defector's name does ring a bell, wasn't he somebody who got out as the Soviet Civil War wound down, and he and his family got out via some "black" air operation, a few minutes ahead of the KGB? Some made-for-TV movie told his story (with some changes for security, of course). But that cabal in the Kremlin has earned so many death sentences from various parties, you'd have to get in line to carry out the sentence your courts imposed.

The Osprey books are pretty accurate, though a favorite F-16 technique is something Ivan taught his own boys to avoid F-15s (or any other "teenaged" fighter): it's known as a Doppler Break. If locked up by a Doppler Radar (like the APG-63 on the F-15), you do a 90 degree break, and that causes the radar to break lock. The fact that the MiG-23 had poor look-down/shoot-down capability helped a lot. And having all-aspect AIM-9Ls didn't hurt, either. We didn't get the -9L until 1987 and PRAIRIE FIRE, btw. But all of my heat-seeker kills were from dead six anyway. The Mann had more MiG-23 encounters than I did, so he may be able to chime in on this subject.

I finally ordered the Osprey book USAF F-4 MiG Killers of World War III. The author was a decent guy, but when he left the room where he'd been interviewing Kara, he was shaking his head in disbelief. A lot of folks have had that reaction when they find out the stuff she did during the war. At least the guy who wrote the book on the USAF's F-4 Units was much more understanding. And he did know what she did; IIRC he was a reporter in a press pool with V Corps during the war, and the AF ALOs mentioned Kara's call sign a lot. Which was, "You won't believe what this crazy F-4 pilot does, but she gets the job done."

DD951

Matt Wiser said: So Canton's a Crown Colony along with Hong Kong? I guess the Brits didn't want to shove more troops in, otherwise they would've occupied the territory in between, unless frequent sweeps, along with the occasional "punitive expedition" are felt to be enough. What's the RAF strength in the area? I remember reading somewhere that a ship south of Taiwan reported that two MiG-19s were buzzing them, and they screamed for help. Two ROCAF F-104Gs (they still had them at that time) responded, and destroyed both MiGs. Just how many of these warlords have their own air forces? It had better be very few.

When was that- I heard a story about that happening to one of the destroyers sent to help clean up the post-war East Asia messes, either the Bausell or the William C. Lawe, both really old Gearing FRAM Is the Navy dug out of the back corners of navy yards. These MiGs had some bombs, and were apparently mulling over whether to attack when they were taken out by the ROCAF fighters- just in time, because those ships would have been screwed if the MiGs did attack, since they had no real AAW capability other than a couple bolt-on machine guns, a really lucky shot with the old 5"/38s, or any Stingers that may have been acquired through unofficial requisitions.

Changing the subject a bit, finally got that gun-camera footage DVD in the mail- some of the most intense and craziest combat scenes I've ever seen; if Hollywood tried putting some stuff like that in a movie, they'd be mercilessly mocked by the critics.:cool: Some really crazy pilot was making a strafing run on a Turya right behind the Krivak we took down, just as we hit the forward magazines, causing it to blow up, and the camera got all that on tape. That madman was flying right through the danger space of our gunfire, and he was damn lucky he didn't catch one of our overs or some debris from the spectacular fireworks display that Krivak turned into. Still, I think that particular clip is going to be a hit at our upcoming crew reunion. Thanks for sending it over.

JN1

Matt,
In theory everything between HK island and Canton is the 'Crown Colony of Hong Kong', but at the moment we're only really policing the old colony and Canton itself in anything like strength. The rural area in between is dotted with platoon and company bases from which patrols are mounted.
The long term plan is to recruit the locals into the new police force and form a new volunteer regiment in Canton.

I remember the rural area being a bit like the Wild West. I fired my personal weapon more times there in two tours than I did during the entirety of WW3!

The RAF has a small, but significant presence in HK. At RAF Sek Kong there is 84 Squadron, which is equipped with the Merlin HC.3A, 3 Squadron RAF Regiment, the Royal Hong Kong Auxiliary Air Force is also based there, as is an Army Air Corps squadron of Apache AH.1s. The fixed with force is based out at the new airport at Chep Lap Kok; it's not a well known fact but about 50% of the finance from the airport came from the MoD.
There are usually two fighter squadrons in residence there: 1 (F), which is equipped with the Harrier GR.9 and 3 (F) which has the Typhoon FGR.4, plus there is a detached flight operating a pair of VC10s and two Hercules. However the number of HAS on the military side of the airport indicates that it was built to house more than two squadrons.
I wouldn't be surprised if more RAF squadrons were on their way there now.

Matt Wiser

Guess the ex-PLA generals who became warlords didn't like the idea of someone else coming in and imposing law and order. How do the ordinary Chinese like being a Crown Colony? Making a lot of money must make a bunch of 'em happy. Even if the trip between Hong Kong and Canton by sea is a lot safer than by land....At least the ones who have MiGs at their disposal don't use them very often. The ROCAF pounds on those who play with their MiGs over international waters. And I believe once even Abraham Lincoln had to send a strike in to "teach a lesson" to a warlord whose air arm had been hounding passing ships on one occasion. There's even the occasional shore bombardment, and the ROC Marines have had to land a few times to deal with such travesties.

Ah, what a weekend, but it's nice to be back at Mountain Home and Hill. We have a reserve weekend coming up at Hill, but I've done a lot of prep already for that, but one of Lisa's squadrons is going down to Nellis for a Red Flag, but it's not Kara's. Kara runs the 391st, the Bold Tigers. The Wild Boars of the 390th are going. The 389th is sending a pair of Strike Eagles down to NAS Miramar for their show next weekend, so those in San Diego or SoCal will see the Beagles, and one of the F-15Es will be flying.

Anyone know why the most lethal SAM in the Soviet arsenal never made it to North America? I'm talking about the SA-10/12 family. We were briefed on it, and knew if it locked onto your plane, you were in for a ride as you tried to avoid it, and if you didn't, well, you were skydiving. But to my knowledege, none of the Grumbles ever made it over here. The most advanced one we saw was the SA-11 for battlefield use, but none of the "heavy" SAMs. SA-2s and -3s did show, but nothing more advanced. Curious...

zakueins

One of the guys that got Colonel Vladimir Petrecov out is a FOAF of some guys around here. Ran into him at a dinner party and got a chance to chat him up. Definite sea story (the difference between a sea story and a fairy tale? A fairy tale starts "once upon a time", and a sea story goes "no shit, this really happened"), and he was only able to talk about the stuff that's been declassified. Mainly that they were suprised by what they got from Petrecov-they were thinking "mid-level KGB guy with some files", and not "guy that had access to ALL the files and brought a lot of copies out with him". Namely that he surprised them at their second meeting with the first steamer trunk. "Get me and my family out," he said, "and you can get five more cases."

Did you get a chance to read the chapter in Osperey F-4 book when some of the Central Aviation pilots got ahold of a few F-4s and did some DACT in Siberia? I remember reading MiG Pilot-My Third World War by a guy that defected near the end with his MiG-29 that just about every Soviet pilot was impressed by the few American aircraft they got (he personally got to fly an F-4 and an F-16). He liked the MiG-29, but was just impressed by the quality they got in the US planes. He had some great stories of the, ah, more...interesting characteristics of the MiG-29 ("interesting" as in "if something went wrong, people die

JN1

Matt,
The ordinary HK Chinese and Canton Chinese seem pretty happy. They're not too bothered about who is in charge, or who's flag flies above Government House so long as there is Law and Order (though the Triads are tolerated to a degree) and they're left alone to get on with life. They're a pretty industrious bunch and very hard working. The Colony is rich enough to pay for a lot of infrastructure projects that will link HK and Canton, such as new railways and roads. The HK government also pays a significant proportion of the costs of the garrison, for example they paid 75% of the cost of the five Peacock class patrol ships based there.
HK is well on the way to being self-sufficient, apart from defence, and should be once Canton is properly on its feet and all the damage caused by the war is properly repaired.

As an aside if the Portuguese ever think about leaving Macao, we'll probably buy it from them.

Hasn't the ROC moved back onto the Mainland in a big way these days?

Edit: Forgot to add the RN presence in HK (probably comes from being an army bloke!).

The permanent presence at HMS Tamar (the naval base) is the 6th Patrol Craft Squadron, made up of the 5 Peacock class ships (HMSs Peacock, Plover, Starling, Swallow and Swift). They're small, but powerful ships, well capable of standing up to anything the local warlords can put to sea these days. The Royal Marines maintain the 3rd Raiding Squadron, equipped with a variety of fast craft, many heavily armed, plus 47 Commando, RM.
There are usually a few visiting frigates, or destroyers in the harbour from the RN's Far East Squadron (which is based in Singapore). Last time I was in HK the LPD HMS Bulwark, a couple of Type 23 frigates and a Type 43 destroyer were visiting.

Matt Wiser

Yeah, I did read that chapter. Fortunately they never did get an F-14 or F-15, otherwise it would've been trouble. The half-dozen F-4s that were shipped back to Russia were all "hangar queens" that the AR ANG or TX ANG had to leave behind when their fields were abandoned in the early days of the invasion. And fortunately the two F-16s were early models-one was a Block 5 and the other a Block 10-by that time the C model was beginning to come into service, and when GD relocated the factory to the old North American factory in Columbus, OH, they went mainly to the C/D version. I had two MiG-29 kills, and both were flown by drivers who apparently didn't think an F-4 would take on a MiG-29. Wrong. One was an AIM-7 kill, the other AIM-9. At least the guy nailed by Sidewinder had a good chute, because that was one debrief I would've liked to hear. The one hit by Sparrow just fireballed-no chute. Tough luck, Ivan. Kara was the squadron champ when it came to MiG-29s: 4 kills and a pair of probables; granted, two of the kills were guys bounced on takeoff, but a kill's a kill.

Isn't the good colonel still in witness protection? Rumor has it that the KGB still has a price out on his head-and they don't care what condition he's in when/if they get him. I do remember Clancy saying that when the interview was done, it was at "an undisclosed location." Some of those files, if properly used, no doubt have fallen into the hands of the appropriate war-crimes investigators. Our friend Panzerfaust probably would know what to do with these files-or refer us to someone who would be willing to start prosecutions.

The Triads probably know how far they can go before the law comes down on them, no doubt. And there's probably still some banditry in the countryside between Canton and Hong Kong, I'd expect; getting a Chinese police force or "Royal Canton Rifles" formed and in the field would help matters. The fact that there's a lot of military hardware fallen into the hands of criminals makes things worse-we've had bank and armored car robberies here where the bad guys were wielding RPGs and other heavy weapons the ComBloc abandoned during LONG RIFLE and BORDER FURY. As for the ROC on the mainland, they do control Fujian Province, which is across the Taiwan Strait, and one other province, on the north end of the Strait. It's a fair bet that the ROC doesn't want to bite off more than it can chew. Some of those warlords have enough firepower to give the ROC military a run for their money, and so a secure Taiwan Straits is probably enough for the ROC government for the time being. At least Taipei has the UN seat back-they're considered to be China at the UN. And the Soviets wonder now why when they ask for a Security Council resolution on something they want (like condemning the Cuba operation) they get four veto votes nowadays?

zakueins

Found it in the Clancy and Keegan books. They were holding the SA-10/12s as a part of the BMD systems both in Russia and in "taken" territories. ADA officers weren't authorized to release their SA-10/12s for anything short of incoming TBM and ICBMs, and they had the same PALs that they had for nukes and were controlled by KGB Security officers. Their officers did destroy their missiles except for one in Texas.

The Japanese worked with US techs to figure it out and I think Mitsubishi built a version of the SA-10/12 for their own use. It turned out to be a "great" missile for high altitude aircraft intercepts, but useless for BMD in any form.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: Mann: it was nice finally to meet you in person. Hope you didn't mind talking with a reservist.

Same here, and no I don not mind talking to reservists. Reservists who flew in the defense of the country and both got shot down and lived to not only tell about it but get back up and go fly again are always people I like. You and I may fly different planes, have different ranks and backgrounds, but we do have one thing in common we whupped Red ass, and even when we had problems of our own, we still got back up and got back in the sky. Any WWIII vet is a person I'm nice to, and I frankly don't give a damn what rank that person is. We were always newbies at one time.

Besides, you got some great stories, sir, and you are technically not far behind me in terms of rank, and I'm not rude to fellow fliers if they are not rude to me. Why should I - one day I might be flying escort for you, and I always figure being the good guy pays. I save the annoyances for the guy who runs the 4th TFW back at Seymour-Johnson. The guy, being frank, a bit of a jerk.

Matt Wiser said: A lot of regular AF types (or regulars in any service branch, for that matter) don't like reservists, even though in many cases, we've got more experience over time than the regulars. Still having 1/4 to 1/3 of my air and ground crew having wartime experience is a plus, and we're not the only unit with that advantage.

Mine has a bit of that advantage - two of my Majors are wartime veterans, and the guy commanding my A-10 wing has three DFCs. Us survivors aren't gone yet, far form it. My buddy in the F-16s is a war survivor, too. Him and I got six in F-4s, then he got four more in F-16s before the war ended.

Matt Wiser said: For an ex-Jarhead, you're pretty cool, even for one who's a Brig. General. At least you haven't let the fact that you've got a star go to your head-unlike some folks I've served with.

Thank you for the compliment. You aren't bad yourself, quite the opposite. I've known a few Colonels that let their rank get to their head, too. I think that us war survivors just remember that at one time we all got into situations that made us question our sanity and what we were capable of. I know what you can do, and that to me counts for more than the insignia on your shoulders. I use that philosophy with all the guys under my command. I'm firm with them and they have to do their jobs well, but when they get it right I acknowledge that they got it right. I learned long ago not to just consider rank. I was a major who got thrown into commanding a wing in the middle of the biggest war in human history - I learned that lesson the hard way.

Matt Wiser said: And I hope you don't mind spending some time with a fella who's primary mission is air-to-mud: making things on the ground burn, bleed, and blow up (in no particular order, of course!).

I did my fair share of air to mud, too, and I had to escort bombers in at low level a bunch of times, too. I don't look down on single-engine or air to mud drivers. I know better than that. Besides, you got one of the best strike platforms in the USAF, and you're a reservist. That means somebody with stars on his shoulders likes you. I was kinda hoping when we had to deal with Cuba that you and your wife's units would get called up for it, because it woulda been me or one of my fliers watching your backs.

Matt Wiser said: And working things out with the 366th is no big problem-I ask my wife to solve a problem on her end if the issue involves her wing and us. Too bad her opposite number across the ramp at Hill-the 388th TFW-isn't as understanding: he's an Academy grad, and has little use for reservists, OCS grads, or both. Fortunately his XO is an ROTC grad, so he's much more understanding. We're both counting the days until the 388th's change-of-command ceremony.

Ah, you got that problem too, huh? The guy who runs the 4th TFW back home is the same - an Academy-grad Colonel who thinks learning at the academy and in training teaches you better than the school of hard knocks. His XO is a female Lt. Col who knows her business at least. I deal with her instead of her boss if I can help it.

Matt Wiser said: Anyone see the Cobra Chicks' demo today? Those gals know how to drive their helos.

Nice to see that hasn't changed. Not that I figured it would, mind you. The Cobra Chicks are known for being both the wildest partiers and the most insane helicopter pilots in the Air Force.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: The Osprey books are pretty accurate, though a favorite F-16 technique is something Ivan taught his own boys to avoid F-15s (or any other "teenaged" fighter): it's known as a Doppler Break. If locked up by a Doppler Radar (like the APG-63 on the F-15), you do a 90 degree break, and that causes the radar to break lock. The fact that the MiG-23 had poor look-down/shoot-down capability helped a lot. And having all-aspect AIM-9Ls didn't hurt, either. We didn't get the -9L until 1987 and PRAIRIE FIRE, btw. But all of my heat-seeker kills were from dead six anyway. The Mann had more MiG-23 encounters than I did, so he may be able to chime in on this subject.

That is about right. The MiG-23 was awful if you went at it from the rear or from blow him. The big difference, as you pointed out, was the -9L Sidewinders. I got 'em a little before Prairie Fire - we were doing a lot of air defense sorties at that point, which probably explains why we got 'em before you did, Matt - I got two MiG-23s by coming up from their six and below them - it's like a sitting duck that way. The MiG-23s the Africans had were the old versions, and these to be frank were crappy airplanes driven by pilots that generally ranged from mediocre to god-awful. The Reds learned quick here, though - the original MiG-23s were soon upgraded, and the upgraded versions, particularly the MLDs, could be trouble if they had a competent pilot at the controls. Mexican and African ones were anything to worry about, but Russian and East German ones were.

Matt Wiser said: I finally ordered the Osprey book USAF F-4 MiG Killers of World War III. The author was a decent guy, but when he left the room where he'd been interviewing Kara, he was shaking his head in disbelief. A lot of folks have had that reaction when they find out the stuff she did during the war. At least the guy who wrote the book on the USAF's F-4 Units was much more understanding. And he did know what she did; IIRC he was a reporter in a press pool with V Corps during the war, and the AF ALOs mentioned Kara's call sign a lot. Which was, "You won't believe what this crazy F-4 pilot does, but she gets the job done."

Dude, most of the guys who flew F-4s - me included - had authors and movie guys shaking their heads in disbelief. As I see it, we had older aircraft designs. Good planes, but the newer stuff was better, and as a result we had to drive the Phantoms hard to get the jobs done, so we did drive the hell out of them. It was good training though, because when we switched planes we then knew how to drive the crap out of our aircraft, which meant it was a matter of feeling out what the new planes could do.

Matt Wiser

Just wait until you get sent out west to Wendover or Nellis to use the range; we'll be waiting. How'd it feel to meet Lisa and Kara? Kara has three DFCs and an Air Force Cross (something about SAM-busting in a non-Weasel Phantom), and Lisa is about the prettiest Wing CO you'll ever meet. (I'm certainly biased, but other guys have said that). She was mighty glad to fill in the three open stars on the side of the Wing CO's bird for the 366th. Not that many female double aces around still flying, and I know two of 'em.

You mean the Army, don't you? The Cobra Chicks are 4-229 Aviation, part of XVIII Airborne Corps. They still fly hard and (reportedly) party hard. Those gals were pretty busy during the invasion of Cuba and supporting the occupation force, but since things have cooled a bit down there....still, getting home with only 48 hours' notice of the show and finding that the Army Chief of Staff had "required their presence" at Scott meant they had to find some folks who would defer their leave until after the show.

The guy running 4th TFW is a jerk, I'll admit. I flew with him in 335, and he's as stubborn and obnoxious as they come. He was upset that an OCS grad (me) was made squadron XO when that slot....became available, and really pissed when I took over the outfit after the CO was MIA. I'll bet he's the one who got that pipsqueak from the IG's office to come and have a look at the squadron-whom General Tanner sent to Michigan's Upper Peninsula as a result. The fella kinda reminds me of Frank Burns on MASH, if you get the idea. Oh, and he never did become XO after I took over the squadron. One of the other Captains got the job. A few weeks later, he asked for a transfer, and I sent him up to Glasgow AFB in Montana, where he joined a NJ ANG F-4 outfit that was up there, supporting the Pacific NW campaign. I hated to burden those Guardsmen with the jerk, but at least he was out of my hair.

We never ran into the MLD (Flogger-K) version, thank heaven. Flogger-Bs or -Gs (or the export version the "Volunteer" units flew) were the MiG-23s we encountered the most. The Russians, Cubans, and East Germans were the most dangerous. The others....like I said earlier, some didn't even belong in the cockpit of a trainer, let alone a fighter. But one of mine was a head-on shot with AIM-9L, and I bet the last thing he thought was "F-4s don't carry all-aspect missiles!" Wrong, Fidel (the vic was Cuban). He's still unconfirmed, though: solo sortie, though if anyone out there hunts or fishes along the Red River north of Wichita Falls and finds what's left of a Cuban MiG-23, let me know.

[lordroel]

From page 66

Matt Wiser

Hey Mann: how difficult was it for you to get kill confirmation? With the rule that you either had to have gun-camera film or at least one eyewitness in another aircraft, it could be hard to get confirmation at times. Especially if you were flying solo (say, escort for an RF-4C or a Navy RF-8G)...At least you had an advantage when you were in Hornets: with the videotape recording your HUD display, getting gun-camera was easy for you guys. The F-4E still had those 16-mm cameras left over from the SEA days. And speaking of which, our CO when the war began was a Vietnam Vet: he'd been a 1st Lt. in 1972, and flew 240 missions over SEA during his tour, but never saw a MiG. The first MiG he saw in combat was on D+1, when that Phoenix airdrop turned into a turkey shoot. Too bad he got himself killed during ADVENT CROWN in '86....

The deadliest SAMs for us were in order: SA-11 (nasty, period), SA-13 (best heat-seeker Ivan had), SA-8 (radar with optical backup), SA-6 (still deadly if you didn't pay attention, even though its fangs had been pulled in Lebanon during the '82 war), and SA-9 (it too, could kill you if you weren't paying attention-it was lethal against choppers and a decent heat-seeker). SA-2s and -3s that Ivan brought in for rear-area defense we knew about from SEA and the '73 Yom Kippur War, so as long as you knew what to expect, your chances were pretty good. Especially if the Weasels were around. As far as SA-7s or -14s went, well, nobody in 335 got shot down by those shoulder-fired missiles, but people came back with damage from them, myself included. Kara came back twice with unexploded SA-14s in her plane.....My shoot-down was a dual SA-6/57-mm AAA event: we took SAM damage and lost an engine, and got sprayed with Triple-A, and thus had to go skydiving. If you guys want to see an intact SA-2 site that's kept as a museum, and you're in OKC, Tinker AFB has one. They built the base museum adjacent to the site, so not only do they have a very impressive collection of aircraft, but a fully intact SA-2 SAM site. I was down there for Tinker's open house last year (I love doing airshows) and the day before, went thru the museum. The manniquins they have in the control van make the site seem like it's ready to go. The museum at White Sands Missile Range has every Soviet SAM that made it to North America on display as well, and it's worth a visit to see both our stuff and theirs-including a SCUD.

So the SA-10s and -12s were held in the TBM defense mission. That makes sense. They never did try shooting at SR-71s with 'em? Both the -10 and -12 could've given an SR an interesting challenge, but since the SR-71's usual tactic if fired on was to accelerate, the missile wasn't able to cope with the high closing speed.

Matt Wiser

Here's something that was a familiar sight in the skies: A Cuban Su-17. They weren't Fitter operators prewar, but before the invasion, the Cubans formed three regiments of Fitters that flew from Day One to the end. The interesting thing is that none of the Fitters ever flew from Cuba: all from Mexico and then bases in occupied territory. The Mann probably has some stories 'bout encountering these guys, whether Soviet, Cuban, or East German flown, but the only ones I saw were on the ground as Rockeye CBUs tore 'em apart. (OOC: Thanks to John "Maverick" Lacey over on the what-if modelers board for the artwork)



JN1

Never saw a Cuban Fitter, but I did see a Tornado F.3 of 603 (City of Edinburgh) Squadron down a Soviet one during a raid on Rosyth. Since the Soviets had used chemicals on the previous raid we had to rescue the pilot from a lynch mob. Facing up to that mob was scarier than fighting Soviet paras.



Matt Wiser

Chemical bombs? There wasn't much use of Chemical Weapons in North America, though there were a few isolated instances of their use. The Russians at Denver secured one of their flanks by lacing an area with Scud-delivered CW, and there were a few attempts at using gas on some guerilla camps, but not much else. But some of the stuff that SAC used on their EASTERN EXPRESS missions into Siberia, however...Bigeye VX gas bombs, especially on several of the "closed" cities in Siberia that were nuclear-weapons R&D centers. And Ivan did use some gas, delivered by either Spetsnatz or by Fifth Columnists (who were often summarily executed if caught with the stuff) in a few cities (Chicago, Detroit, San Francisco).

BigWillyG

Matt Wiser said: Here's something that was a familiar sight in the skies: A Cuban Su-17. They weren't Fitter operators prewar, but before the invasion, the Cubans formed three regiments of Fitters that flew from Day One to the end. The interesting thing is that none of the Fitters ever flew from Cuba: all from Mexico and then bases in occupied territory. The Mann probably has some stories 'bout encountering these guys, whether Soviet, Cuban, or East German flown, but the only ones I saw were on the ground as Rockeye CBUs tore 'em apart. (OOC: Thanks to John "Maverick" Lacey over on the what-if modelers board for the artwork)

Saw one of those go down in the Gulf end of the war. We were with a squadron of ships raiding the Mexican coast when Ivan stoped sending regular convoys. Thing came in low over the group with bombs and ate a 76mm shell from one of the Perry's. I'll never forget how it exploded into a fireball feet over the water.

Matt Wiser

Near the end of the war? There weren't many of those Fitters left by that time. Maybe a short Regiment (20-30 aircraft, and the ComBloc was getting very short of spare parts and replacement pilots, kinda like the Luftwaffe in 1944-45) if I remember my Air War College notes.

Hey 951, glad you liked the DVD. The guy you mention happened to be the fellow I replaced as CO of the 419th. He was a newly-promoted Captain at the time. He didn't want to give up his Thud, but he went to F-4s just fine, and got used to having a WSO in the back.

JimmyRibbitt

Sigma7 said: OOC: I HAVE seen the movie and this whole thread is flawed from the jump as it presumes the war started in 1985, despite the fact that the film's own literature says it takes place "in the near future" (ie; sometime after 1985) and there's ample evidence both OTL (to a point) and IN the movie itself that it couldn't possibly take place in 1985:

That depends. If Jimmy Carter had been re-elected in 1980, it all could have happened sooner, as Carter would have likely looked the other way when the Commies overran Central America. It would have likely startd in the 1982-1985 time frame, when either Andropov or Chernenko were running the USSR, the both of them were more hard-line then either Brezhnev or Gorbachev.

If figure the war starting in 1983, if Carter had been re-elected, but it would have also caused quite a backlash that would have keep the Democrats out of the White House for a long time.

With Carter looking the other way, the Cubans and Soviets could have built up the forces needed for a war to begin in 1983.

Here is my list of Presidents, for this timeline, and beyond, beginning with Carter

39. Jimmy Carter 1977-1983 (killed when DC is nuked)
40. Walter Mondale 1983-1985
41. Ronald Reagan 1985-1993
42. George Bush Sr 1993-2001
43. George Bush Jr 2001-2009
44. John S McCain 2009-2017
45. Sarah L Palin 2017-2025
46. George P Bush 2025-2033 (nephew of George Bush Jr)

I ffigure the democrats would be ousted for a long time, on account of letting the Commies overrun Central America until it was too late. I figure a lot of Democrats, at least the ultra-liberal ones, would have left the country, after the war, to go to either Mexico or Cuba.

I think the ultra-liberal Dems would have been seen in the same light as the lefty "colloborators", and would have left America.

JN1

Matt,
The Soviet and East German air forces hit many of our ports and airfields with chemical weapons. I mentioned a while back being involved in the decontamination of Rosyth.
Civillian casualties were pretty heavy, but the Soviets eventually switched back to HE when we returned the favour on East German airfields and Soviet bases in the Kaliningrad Oblast.

trekchu

So that was you? When I was in Germany a while back I heard about it.

JN1

Not me personally. Sorry, a bit of squaddie black humour.

The Crabs did quite a bit of bug spraying in retaliation. I can't say anybody enjoyed doing it, but we couldn't let the Soviets think they could get away with doing it to us with impunity.

BigWillyG

Matt Wiser said: Near the end of the war? There weren't many of those Fitters left by that time. Maybe a short Regiment (20-30 aircraft, and the ComBloc was getting very short of spare parts and replacement pilots, kinda like the Luftwaffe in 1944-45) if I remember my Air War College notes.

Hey 951, glad you liked the DVD. The guy you mention happened to be the fellow I replaced as CO of the 419th. He was a newly-promoted Captain at the time. He didn't want to give up his Thud, but he went to F-4s just fine, and got used to having a WSO in the back.

They were? Explains why I only ever saw the one. By and large I was happy during the war to not see any Combloc aircraft. Pegasus was a fine ship but outside of the 76mm and maybe the odd stinger we had nothing to defend against aircraft with. Alot of the small craft got sunk by aircraft early in the war before we got fighter cover.

Matt Wiser

I don't think anyone was proud of it; the SAC crews that series of articles in the Cleveland Plain Dealer who talked said dropping Bigeye VX bombs was the hardest thing they did, short of dropping a B-43 or B-61 nuclear weapon (which is alleged to have happened on the still-classified Moscow mission). But as Panzerfaust said, and the crews echoed him in the piece: "we did what we had to do." The two known nuclear strikes in the vicinity of Moscow were from ALCMs, one of the articles pointed out.

Saw this on CNN today: seems a site of one of the late and unlamented Gennady Bratchenko's atrocities in Louisiana was found over the weekend. A mass grave with about 2,000 bodies was found near Alexandria, where the new Interstate 49 is being built. The grave was found during work on the highway, and now the project's on hold in that area while the grave is properly excavated, remains checked to see if they have any ID on them, and captured records checked to see when this grave was...filled. After his war-crimes conviction, they practically had to drag Bratchenko to the gallows, and he struggled every foot of the way.

Here's one of the planes the 419th flew: it's artwork depicting one of the Thuds that the wing flew. It's dated two years before the shooting started, but it's representative of the F-105s flown by 419 for that first year of the war. (OOC: Thanks to John "Maverick" Lacey over on the what-if modelers page for the artwork)



JimmyRibbitt

The Red said: I was a member of the militant tendency protest movement to try and get Britain out of the War.Thatcher wanted us all shot as traitors but I managed to get political refuge in the Soviet Union after the war.

The British did execute William Joyce ("Lord Haw Haw") after WWII for making broadcasters similar to what the lefties did in WWIII, so yes, you would be subject to execution in Britain, for your opposition to the war, just as Lord Haw Haw was hanged in January of 1946.

That UCLA prof, and that leftie film maker would also be subject to execution in Britain, if the Brits ever get their hands on them.

Matt Wiser

Kinda hard to get replacement aircraft and spare parts when your convoy lanes to Cuba and Mexico finally got cut, and the oil refineries in occupied territory (Texas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana) were bombed or later on, retaken. Near the end, they had some fuel from Mexico, but SAC's B-52s and B-1Bs saw to them going off line-indefinitely-just before the end. Not to mention the fact that airfields in occupied territory were often visited by TACAIR.

That UCLA prof is still in a Federal Lockup in Miami, and he's probably going to face a trial for Treason. Seems some of the lefties caught in Cuba are turning on each other....not to mention stuff the guy wrote while in Mexico City and in Havana that the Marines found in the fella's Havana apartment. The question then becomes whether or not the U.S. Attorney will ask the AG if he can ask for permission to make it a capital case. (Thank-you to the online edition of the Miami Herald) That filmmaker still ranting from Caracas will get his, sooner or later.

Did anyone notice something during the Victory Day celebrations, wherever you were? A news story saying that the Baja statehood bill is now before the Senate? I didn't notice it until I was looking at the papers that came while we were off at Scott AFB, but looks like next year, there'll be a 51st star on the flag.

sloreck

Matt - don't envy the guys doing the forensics on the mass grave they just found. Did some of that doing the war, and recently when i was pulled out of retirement (all 6 months of it) to go to Cuba with the Marines & was there when they opened the 2 we found at Gitmo.

When I was with 4/14 at the beginning of the war (recalled reservist 24hrs after it started) and later with Charlie Med 1st FSSG we never had red crosses on our BAS or Hospital tents, or any other "Geneva Convention" identifiers except the GC ID cards. Our forces found out the hard way the first few days of the war that the red crosses were merely target indicators for the COMBLOC forces - I personally saw a Mississippi ANG Field Hospital that had been hit on day 3 - they were away from anyone else & clearly marked, and thoroughly trashed. By day 4 the word was out at least among all Navy/Marine units that no red cross used anywhere - persons, vehicles, tents etc. When I went to San Diego to join Charlie Med I found out that on day 1, before counterstrikes stopped it, the Mexicans had hit around Balboa Naval Hospital with artillery (as well of course as trying to hit the Navy bases etc) - fortunately they mostly knocked trees down in the park but trying to hit Balboa was deliberate.

I'm sure the folks in the SD area will be happy to see Baja an official US state, no more worries from that direction.

Oh, and BTW, I mentioned there was a prof here on this campus a few vets had some suspicions about. Turned out the fingerprints got him - he had exchanged identities with someone who must have disappeared during the war who had no close family (or none that survived). During the war he was a senior official in designing the "educational" program for middle & HS students in the occupied areas and also for "ensuring" it was taught properly - loss of tenure was not the penalty for failing to meet standards, transfer to more socially responsible work in a camp was. FBI arrested him using his real name in front of 150 students during a lecture - he cried like a baby when then led him away & I understand his lawyer is trying to play lets make a deal to get the death penalty off the table.

TheMann

Well, it looks like we're gonna gain our 51st state. Congress has passed the statehood bill for Baja California to become a state, and the analysts say the Senate is a formality, that its been settled. The President is in favor of the idea, too. Puerto Rico has also set a date for voting on its status for early next year, and the Cuban expats in Miami want Cuba to become the 52nd or 53rd state. We'll see how well that goes down in Cuba itself.

I'll be quite happy to say hello to our friends in the new state of Baja California, fairly soon.

Matt Wiser

Sloreck: yeah, I don't envy those guys a bit. We had some of that in New Mexico and Texas, during PRAIRIE FIRE and LONG RIFLE. Fort Sumner, Tucumcari, and Clovis in New Mexico, along with Amarillo and Canyon in Texas are the ones I remember (though I'd personally rather not). Mainly because there was RF-4C imagery that showed those graves before they were filled in....stuff one doesn't want to see, period. And the ComBloc had a nasty habit of firing or bombing anything showing a Red Cross. The Mexicans in the San Diego area didn't get very far: an armed citizenry and 1st Marine Division saw to that. Not to mention the Navy and Marine air from Miramar, El Toro, North Island, etc. S-3s as light bombers? Since the Mexicans there didn't have much in the way of air defense, the Vikings got to haul some iron (the guys at North Island). Then they got pushed back south and Tijuana was shelled into rubble by naval gunfire and 1st MarDiv as a reprisal. (as far as folks in Baja are concerned, that was the first strike against the government in Mexico City)

Mann: I can't wait, either. DOD has said that the "hardship duty" designation will remain for the time being. (lobbying by the pro-statehood folks in Baja, perhaps?) How hard was it for you to get kill confirmation (or easy, for that matter)? It took up to 24 hours to get those 16-mm strike camera films developed at times-depending on how busy the film lab was. Even a statement from the WSO wasn't considered enough for verification: you needed either gun-camera film or the wingie to verify the claim. And were any of your kills Su-17s? All the ones I saw were on the ground-and getting torn up by either Mark-82 Snakeyes or Rockeye CBUs, though I did strafe a couple with 20-mm.

I wonder if that Prof was crying croccodile tears? The only thing these lefties are sorry about is either being caught or that their side lost. (usually) The remarks those lefties in Mexico City and Caracas said before Victory Day are enough to make one puke. They still can't bring themselves to admit that the cause they advocate is so despised here, and the fact that it was settled-on the battlefield-twenty years ago. One of these days, though, we'll settle things with Mexico City-once and for all.

DD951

Matt, Sloreck-

Saw some of that mass-grave stuff in BC & the San Juans as well- worst was what happened at Pt. Roberts- not only was that a massacre of every last man, woman, and child the commies (mostly auxiliaries, with a few KGB types calling the shots) could get ahold of, they took their time going about things, often borrowing a few pages from medieval Europe, especially when it came to those involved in local government, business leaders, and professional types, and they also entertained themselves with most of the women between about 12-13 and probably 70 before killing them. From what I've heard, out of the few dozen survivors, most still have severe PTSD or other psychological issues. Even 20 years later, just thinking about what I saw when I went ashore with the landing party responding to the distress call (Turner Joy was one of several ships that responded, hoping to catch the enemy and land a couple companies of Marines to drive the commies away) makes me want to go grab a bottle. Having to testify about that at the Vegas war crimes trials was one of the most difficult things I've ever done.

As for the ex-auxiliaries, sympathizers, and most Soviet military types, only a handful of the ones I've come across in my professional capacity (or military back then) have shown anything resembling genuine remorse for their actions. Not sure why that is- interesting question for a psychologist or a priest, I suppose.

[lordroel]

From page 67

zakueins

Couple of Dad's friends have been down in Baja California to organize the police departments down there, and was over at Dad's place when a few were over for dinner.

Biggest issue-corruption. And, I don't mean the "mysterious free beer" that an officer occasionally gets. They gave everybody a year to get clean, offered to help get officers clean and legit (with lessened punishment), then started the IAB sweeps and "false flag" operations. They found gear missing, cars missing (including impounded ones), guns missing, etc, etc. And, a lot of "justice for sale"-a pretty girl can get away with murder if she puts out well enough.

Major department in Baja, they did a sweep in Ensenada. Two thirds of the PD there was busted on charges that is going to put a lot of them in jail for at least 15-20. One of the "special weapons" teams was pretty much a armed auxiliary for the drug cartels!

The corruption goes hand in hand with a second issue-piss poor salaries. A starting officer is getting paid what a lieutenant used to get paid. And benefits are now actual benefits, they're starting with medical support through the MPs and Army units there (big credit has to be given to the MP and CID units, without them a lot of the cops wouldn't know how to do anything...).

One big thing that they're helping with is the "sweat equity" efforts of the Engineers and Peace Corps to get things like better roads, easy-to-maintain water supplies, power, that sort of thing. Lot of petty pilferage, and they're getting good at handling it. By the time the state vote gets tallied, I suspect most of the major villages are going to have at least one full, all-weather road in them.

TheMann

DD951 said: Matt, Sloreck-

Saw some of that mass-grave stuff in BC & the San Juans as well- worst was what happened at Pt. Roberts- not only was that a massacre of every last man, woman, and child the commies (mostly auxiliaries, with a few KGB types calling the shots) could get ahold of, they took their time going about things, often borrowing a few pages from medieval Europe, especially when it came to those involved in local government, business leaders, and professional types, and they also entertained themselves with most of the women between about 12-13 and probably 70 before killing them. From what I've heard, out of the few dozen survivors, most still have severe PTSD or other psychological issues. Even 20 years later, just thinking about what I saw when I went ashore with the landing party responding to the distress call (Turner Joy was one of several ships that responded, hoping to catch the enemy and land a couple companies of Marines to drive the commies away) makes me want to go grab a bottle. Having to testify about that at the Vegas war crimes trials was one of the most difficult things I've ever done.

My family knew of Port Roberts and my father told me one of the times we met at home. Hearing about that was bad enough. I hope whoever the animals were who did that are long dead. Preferably, somebody cut their manhood off and let them bleed to death, the pigs. I can understand about wanting to grab a bottle, trust me. I'm glad the amphib attempt on Seattle because a SNAFU. If not, what could have been in Seattle does not bear thinking about.

JimmyRibbitt

Matt Wiser said: That filmmaker still ranting from Caracas will get his, sooner or later.

I wonder when the Brits will mount an operation to get him. The hanging of Lord Haw Haw in 1946 proves that the Brits have zero tolerance for that kind of stuff, regardless of what nationality the perp is(Lord Haw Haw was an American), I would not be surprised if the Brits are looking for him now. If the Americans don't get him, the Brits will. All I gotta say to this guy is "Be afraid, be VERY afraid".

Matt Wiser

As far as the state vote goes, all that's needed is Senate action on the statehood bill, then the President signs it. It becomes effective on the Fourth of July. Having been in southern Baja (La Paz) I can tell you it's a lot better than in Esenada-having LeMay AFB and a Naval Station down there helps. La Paz is now half a military town and half a resort nowadays. ISTR once they had to bring in a Marine Regiment down from Camp Pendleton to Esenada to get a hold on things (at the mayor's request), but it looks like they're finally making progress. As for jobs, extending I-5 from the old border down to La Paz is going to put a lot of people there to work, and they've already started some of the work. And the territory's beginning to form their National Guard, and I bet some people will join the Guard just to get a decent part-time job and some money in their pockets. Don't know how the Army's helping out, but the AF has teams in Mexicali, La Paz, and Esenada to help form their Air National Guard. (They'll probably get C-130s or C-27s-they need transports more than tacair, and LeMay AFB handles the air defense side pretty well, anyway) Question, though: any of the drug cartels have ties to the government in Mexico City? It'd be a cheap way to make life difficult for the new state, since Mexico City is in no position to take Baja back militarily. The FBI's been investigating the possiblity-at least that's what I heard last time I was down there on a two-week TDY.

Hardly anyone who's been involved in that has expressed a shred of remorse. Only Colonel Bella has, to my knowledge, and he's testified at a few trials for the prosecution. Whoever got his family out of Cuba and here to the States probably got a case of whatever they drank from him. (SEALs or Delta, methinks) How'd you guys finally deal with those raids? Air or naval strikes on the ports where those commandeered fishing boats and yachts came from would be my guess. Personally, why those people don't show any remorse is something a shrink is going to have to answer, but a lot of them would've fit in with an SS unit in WW II. So fanatical and devoted to "the cause", that anything was possible. You do hear a few of 'em, btw, on the radio from Mexico City on occasion, unfortunately. At least the ones we picked up in Cuba are going to have to explain themselves to a jury-and it'll take a miracle for 'em to get away with anything less than a life sentence. More than a few qualify for the death penalty....

DD951

Mann- Yeah, that was pretty awful, but at least the people responsible are for the most part dead, but AFAIK, your suggested method of execution wasn't taken up (although that would have been literally an eye for an eye in a few cases.) The apparent reason for the whole thing is equally disgusting- apparently the Soviets got some bad intel that an SIGINT/ELINT intercept team & a SF detachment who had been a real thorn in their side were operating out of there, and sent in a large force under the command of some sort of KGB Spetznaz equivalent to get them. Pt. Roberts was too lightly defended- an understrength NG platoon, local cops & border patrol types, & an informal militia of armed citizens- didn't stand a chance despite inflicting about a hundred casulties, and it was inexcusable considering how isolated it was- apparently an Army 2-star got sacked over that debacle. The troops the Soviets were looking were never there, so the commander, a KGB type, ordered the massacre to work out their frustrations and teach an 'object lession,' and unfortunately, they happened to be unusually creative in their sadism and had all too willing accomplices. Afterwards, I understand the KGB unit running the show, even among the KGB, enjoyed a reputation similar to that of the Dirlewanger division among the SS.

Turner Joy captured one batch of auxiliaries who were involved a few months later- didn't realize who they were until we boarded them after they surrendered, otherwise we'd just have blasted them out of the water on the spot. Probably the only reason we didn't take care of them ourselves was that a chief boatswain's mate pointed out that our yardarms weren't really suitable for hanging people, and that created enough of a pause for the CO & OOD to realize that executing them on the spot would cause us to get caught in enough bureaucratic and legal entanglements to make our lives needlessly complex. We ended up turning them over to Army MPs when we docked in Everett a few days later to refuel and reprovision; a military commission at Ft. Lewis found them all guilty of assorted war crimes, treason, and murder, and sentenced the lot to death- they ended up being shot rather than hanged, largely because nobody wanted to expend the effort to build a gallows, or ship them all the way across the state to where the closest one was (Walla Walla State Penitentiary, in the SE part of the state). A second batch got captured by another destroyer, the Decatur, and met a similar fate. As far as it can be determined, most of them either got killed in the small craft actions or in the fighting in Vancouver, although the commanders responsible survived long enough to face justice in Las Vegas. There's probably still a few out there who've managed to find some hole to crawl into, but there haven't been any leads about them in the last 10 years I've heard of. Hopefully, someone we grabbed in Cuba will have been involved or know something, & if not, there's still a few other places to look.

Agree with you about Seattle, especially since that would have been my family and friends going through that butchery....:eek:

Matt- the raids were a constant problem until Vancouver was liberated, as the units involved were commandeered for the Soviet defenses. They at first had a few big nests around the Fraser River, but gave those up after we shot up one in a bombardment mission carried out by the gun destroyers we had (Turner Joy, Hull, Bausell) supported by a couple other ships, and the really big one got napalmed by A-6s out of Whidbey. After that, they went to all sorts of little decentralized groupings of no more than 3-4 boats, which even though they were mostly hit when spotted, were like trying to stomp out an ant nest. They had to be interdicted by naval & air patrols- near constant gunboat & FAC action, while a lot of troops were tied up providing garrisons, while what were essentially town militias formed out of local cops & citizens given some training and armed with M-1s & M-14s out of the warehouses were formed in most of the north Puget Sound communities, to about 20 miles inland from the coast or front-lines.

JimmyRibbitt

Matt Wiser said: As for jobs, extending I-5 from the old border down to La Paz is going to put a lot of people there to work, and they've already started some of the work.

What about the portion of old Mexico 1 that is freeway from Tijuana down to Ensenada? That could be given the I-5 designation now, and I-5 could be extended as far down as Ensenada right now.

And what are they going to do with old Mexico 5 running from Mexicali to San Felipe? I could see upgrading to interstate status and making is some kind of x10 interstate as a spur from Interstate 10, starting in Palm Springs and going down to San Felipe, or maybe even paving the dirt road section of Mexico 5 down to where it would meet I-5 on the Baja peninsula and make that an Interstate. Either make it an x10 interstate, or designate it is I-11.

Maybe make old Mexico 3 from Enenada to San Felipe into an x05 Interstate and call it I-705. And old Mexico 2 from the Tijuana to the border with the Mexican state of Sonora into an Interstate and call it Interstate 6. Then when they eventually go in to get rid of the commie regime in Mexico, once and for all, the nothern tier of Mexican states could be annexed, and I-6 could then be extended all the way to El Paso, Texas through Sonora and Chihuahua.

trekchu

It's been a long time since I last was down there ( Summer 95ish ) and doesn't it still need a lot of infrastructure that will keep construction busy for the next decade? I should usually know, but since my company is still busy on other projects.... ( Mind you, someone must have given the folks in charge in Cuba my Office number. )

JN1

JimmyRibbitt said: I wonder when the Brits will mount an operation to get him. The hanging of Lord Haw Haw in 1946 proves that the Brits have zero tolerance for that kind of stuff, regardless of what nationality the perp is(Lord Haw Haw was an American), I would not be surprised if the Brits are looking for him now. If the Americans don't get him, the Brits will. All I gotta say to this guy is "Be afraid, be VERY afraid".

Sadly in his case we don't have the death penalty any more. The last capital offenses (treason and b*ggering the Monarch's sister) were abolished by the House of Lords a few years back.
During the war the Emergency Powers Act did allow for execution, usually by firing squad, but those powers lapsed in 1990. We'd need a special act of Parliament, which is not impossible. Alternatively we could just arrange for him to have a 'little accident'.

OCC: B*ggering the Monarch's sister was really a capital crime until around 1999, I kid you not!

Matt Wiser

Not sure how they'll do it, but Lisa and I were down in San Diego about the time the Marines went down to Ensenada, and the condition of the road was a big complaint from the Marines' POV. We were visiting her sister Joanne, who was then assistant TAO on the assault carrier Belleau Wood, when that happened. I believe that the plan to extend I-5 will involve making that stretch of road Interstate standard, and new construction (obviously) down to La Paz. The other highway from Mexicali south is probably going to be a spinoff of I-8, instead of I-10. Not sure how they plan on handling old Hwy 2, but a lot of federal money is getting poured into infrastructure projects down there in advance of statehood. Of course, the reaction to all this in Mexico City is about what you'd expect. "How dare the gringos steal more of our land!" is the most common one, but one of the rebel groups issued an online statement that AP picked up, basically saying that if Baja wants to leave and become a U.S. State, let them. After all, the government in Mexico City still refuses to acknowledge being on the losing side in the war, even after twenty years, so what else should the "illegitimate government" expect? And that government wonders why it's fighting half a dozen different insurgent groups? (hint: not all of them are U.S. sponsored, despite Mexico City's claims-voiced every year ad nauseaum at the UN)

What was it that blowhard moviemaker said a few weeks ago, after the Cuba op finished and he went down to Caracas and that paranoid ex-paratrooper/President-for-life? "The auxiliaries were the minutemen", or some other nonsense. He had the gall to say it when he was interviewed by some Dutch TV channel and CNN showed it here....the idiot doesn't know when to shut his mouth. Such things can haunt one later-say, at trial....

I think Panzerfaust a while back mentioned that the scum-sucker Khvoshtov was compared by his own superiors to Dirlewanger, and that his brutality was counterproductive to the KGB's "pacification" efforts. Too bad that scum's own KGB rivals didn't bump him off, or a lot of people in the Houston area would still be alive. There were repeated attempts on the man's life, and one time a whole town paid for a failed hit-the town of Freer in South Texas was burned to the ground in reprisal. Though he was hanged, the NASA people had more appropriate suggestions for disposing of him-all shuttle related.

DD951

Matt Wiser said: I think Panzerfaust a while back mentioned that the scum-sucker Khvoshtov was compared by his own superiors to Dirlewanger, and that his brutality was counterproductive to the KGB's "pacification" efforts. Too bad that scum's own KGB rivals didn't bump him off, or a lot of people in the Houston area would still be alive. There were repeated attempts on the man's life, and one time a whole town paid for a failed hit-the town of Freer in South Texas was burned to the ground in reprisal. Though he was hanged, the NASA people had more appropriate suggestions for disposing of him-all shuttle related.

At least two... groups... who were considered Dirlewangers by their superiors, Khvoshtov (& his cronies) and the group responsible for Pt. Roberts, and those same superiors either chose to do nothing or couldn't do anything about them.... Makes one wonder exactly what was going on in the Combloc chain-of-command- were they all perpetually drunk from constantly drinking vodka or something, or was that entire group just that depraved?

Matt Wiser

That whole cabal from the Kremlin on down was pretty nasty. There was a lot of back-stabbing (literally) in both the Politburo and the Central Committe, the defectors say, with the hard-liners doing just about all of it. How these guys thought they could do stuff that was right out of the Nazis' playbook for Barbarossa and we'd just roll over is beyond me. I'll bet they were thinking like Hitler and his cronies did: with their ideology and not their brains. The only sane ones were on the Soviet General Staff, who said that if they didn't win within six months, they wouldn't win at all. The Politburo ignored the military's advice and decided on war, because that failed grain harvest in '83 scared the hell out of them. They figured that one or two more harvests like that, and they'd be the ones facing a revolution. Some writer said that "wars are begun by frightened old men", a while back. Well, you had a bunch of 'em in the Kremlin.

Incidentally, if one looks at that bastard Khvoshtov, I'll bet that some of the attempts on his life came after his own boss wrote in his diary about Khvoshtov's activities being "counterproductive". Considering he had his own enemies in the KGB (not to mention the GRU), a few of the attempts to kill him probably came from his own side. The resistance certainly needed no encouragement to try and kill him, but his own superiors had...misgivings about him. If those misgivings were translated into action...? Too bad all of those involved on that side are dead, and couldn't be interrogated about this affair postwar.

Joanne, Lisa's sister, had an interesting story from the Cuba blockade in '88. Seems her destroyer, U.S.S. Bigelow (DD-942) had a skipper who was pretty bored on blockade duty, and they were due to return to Jacksonville for a few days, so he went in close to the port of Banes, on the north shore of Cuba, and gave the port a 5-inch wakeup call at 0230 one July morning, to the tune of 270 5-inch rounds. They blasted some oil storage tanks, a few warehouses near the docks, sank a Soviet freighter, and generally raised a lot of hell. They got clean away, but the Skipper didn't. His squadron commander gave him a royal dressing-down for going off half cocked on that foray. But CINCLANT had the last word, and awarded the man a Silver Star. Joanne was OOD during Battle Stations, and she saw it all, including the fireworks when the oil tanks blew. A couple of other tanks they hit didn't have oil, but they spilled about 5,000 gallons of Molasses....hell of a thing to clean up after sunrise. Inmates at the nearby POW camp said later that the first thing they knew something was up when the oil tanks went sky-high, and though the Cubans made the POWs clean up some of the damage, they felt it was worth it.

DD951

Well, that figures, a mix of ideologues who were willfully blind to everything but their own agenda and whatever it took to get it done, political players willing to go with just about anything for power's sake, and those who didn't like it but were afraid to rock the boat lest they found some of those knives in their backs. Talk about a perfect storm. I'd imagine that if anyone ever gets a hold of the old Politburo & Central Committee papers and/or the personal papers of those individuals, it'd make for some interesting reading as to how out of touch with reality they were- their decison-making and information processing might almost be farcial if it wasn't for the utterly horrific consequences that had.

Matt Wiser

It was a perfect storm, and a lot of death and destruction was the result. One of the defectors said on CNN a couple years ago that the Politburo simply refused to listen to bad news that came from North America, and like Stalin, sometimes had those bringing bad news shot. It wasn't until '87 that the KGB began to consider the possiblity that the ComBloc would lose the war, though the GRU knew after the Spring-Summer '86 offensive failed that an outright ComBloc victory was out of the question. Incidentally, the GRU had three directors in that '87-88-89 time frame. They were....relieved, shall we say. (the defectors use the term liquidated, but the result is the same) One KGB Chairman also met that fate, along with two Defense Ministers and two Chiefs of the General Staff. When I was at the Air War College, some of those defectors were the most listened to speakers, and the stuff they told us would make your hair stand up. The galling thing is that the rump USSR still won't admit that they lost the war. Oh, they brag about starting it, but they won't admit losing. Since we're still technically at war with them...remember, there's an armistice, not a permanent peace treaty. We do have peace treaties with the Russian Republic, Far East Republic, and most of the rest of the former Soviet republics, but that rump Soviet state? Not likely anytime soon.

The effects on their war effort here were just as bad: three CGs of their North American TVD were...relieved, along with several Front and numerous Army and Divisional COs. The Air Force wasn't as bad off purge-wise, but they did lose several very high-ranking officers who dared suggest that there was no way to win, and that the Soviets would be well advised to cut their losses and get whatever kind of settlement they could-especially after PRAIRIE FIRE and LONG RIFLE. Admrial Gorshkov, the CINC-Soviet Navy, who'd promised his forces would be able to interdict the U.S.'s sea lines of communication, was one of the earliest purge victims, after the debacles at New Orleans and Seattle.

How'd you like the Bigelow going in close and giving Banes a 5-inch wakeup call? CINCLANT thought it was a good idea, even though the nearby coastal SSM battery could've made it the last thing that skipper did. But even the missileers were caught napping.

TheMann

Bigelow got might lucky that battery was caught napping. We were always worried about that, because the interdiction forces were generally older vessels that didn't have the modern capabilities of the newer ships. But then again, if there was any time to do it, 0230 is about the time. Nobody is at their best at that sort of hour, unless you are either nocturnal or an insomniac.

As for the Russkies, we knew full well even during the war that people capable of doing some of the things they did have to be unstable and capable of turning on each other. It was after the war when we found out just how much they did turn on each other. It's a wonder they got as far as they did when you consider the number of fuckups they made and the amount of resistance we put up. The sieges in Denver and Vancouver shoulda given the morons a clue, because the old guards shoulda remembered the siege at Stalingrad.......

sloreck

The really sad thing is that the Sovs could have purchased enough grain to prevent major disruptions, but that would have required "admitting" that collectivized agriculture didn't work - instead they started a war that killed millions, including my first wife & sons, and partitioned their country.

TheMann

sloreck said: The really sad thing is that the Sovs could have purchased enough grain to prevent major disruptions, but that would have required "admitting" that collectivized agriculture didn't work - instead they started a war that killed millions, including my first wife & sons, and partitioned their country.

Most people don't realize that until WW1 & the subsequent revolution, Russia was a net exported of grain and without starving the population to do it.
Pride Goeth Before The Fall, I believe is the term here. And we could have provided them with all they needed and then some, and how hard would it have been to allow larger private plots? We found out post-war that allowing bigger private plots for everyone would have dramatically increased their food production....

Matt Wiser

0230 is a good time to do some mischief. That's also the time we got...interrupted on that off-road weekend and the escapade of the naked CSP gal. Too bad we weren't cleared for night work, otherwise there would have been plenty of opportunities to give the ComBloc all sorts of grief at night. But that was the Marines and the 27th TFW's job with the A-6s and F-111Ds. Btw, Mann, the Showtime movie about Kelly Ann Ray has its broadcast premiere the day after Christmas, so set your VCR. And if any of you guys want autographed copies of her book, I'll let her know, and she can send 'em out. The Scott brothers' movie has been retitled Wings of the Phantom, and should open Memorial Day weekend. They've already invited alumni from the 335th to the premiere in Hollywood, myself and Lisa included. There's going to be a paperback book as a movie tie-in, but nobody's come up to do the interviews yet. Oh, and Kara has issued you a challenge, Mann. She says "I can whip that old guy in his new F-22." If you get called for a Red Flag, she'll be waiting.....

I think it'll be a cold day in hell before those Politburo and Central Committee records see the light of day in the West; a lot of those guys are still alive, and have war-crimes indictments hanging over them.

Remember that the KGB was all for the invasion, and the KGB Chairman basically quoted Hitler before Barbarossa: "Kick in the door, and Capitalism's whole rotten structure will come crashing down." The GRU had misgivings, the defectors say, but knew which way the winds were blowing, and supported the decision (none of the GRU's top staff wanted a bullet in the back of the head). The General Staff's misgivings are well known. Hence the frequent purges of that institution....

TheMann

Matt, tell Major Ray that I just put in a request to take my Wing to Red Flag. If I get that authorization, it's on. This "old guy" can still dust his young bucks in these F-22s, and she ought to remember that I HAVE shot down Cuban AF planes in my Raptor. I like challenges, and believe me, she's gonna get all she can handle, friend.

And thanks for the heads-up on the movie. I'll have to set my DVR, because I'm gonna be in Indianapolis that weekend. I asked for the weekend of the Indy 500 off as I usually do, and I got it. I also have a standing offer from Andretti-Green Racing for a VIP pass to the Indy 500, and they've got a pair of souped-up Honda S2000s for me and an old squadron mate who is now Indiana ANG to run in the Road Car 500. It's gonna be a blast, I'm sure. :cool:

BigWillyG

Not to move onto a different point of discussion but I've been thinking of somthing and wonder if anyone can give me more info.

In June of '85 we raided a rather poorly defended convoy and had a Polish container ship defect to us. Right after our missile salvo we moved in and this ship immediately raises a US flag and goes over all radio channels telling us not to shoot because they wanted to defect. One of their escorts, some ancient destroyer I think it was a Kotlin, must have heard them and starts turning weapons on them. Thing was crippled from a Harpoon so it took them awile and by the time they did that this Polish freighter had rammed and cut them in half. We were too stunned to do anything while that happened but as this Kotlin sinks we go up to this ship and she sent a boat over to tell us they were out of Gdansk and wanted to defect.
Turned out she was loaded with M-46 130mm and S-23 180mm guns with shells to go with them. When we got her back to Savannah those guns were offloaded and I heard they got sent to Texas and used by US artillery. It somthing I think of alot and I never knew what happened to those guns.
Anybody serve Combloc artillery during the war out in Texas or know what batteries got them?

trekchu

My Division had some of those, and more were used close by near the end.

As for the Poles, the later in the war it was the more often they simply raised a white flag instead of fighting.

[lordroel]

From page 68

Matt Wiser

You mean Kara, don't you? She will be waiting, along with the 391st TFS, the Bold Tigers; that's the squadron she runs. Lisa just about had a coronary when she found out the challenge had been issued, but she's game as well. Oh, and Sarah Fisher Racing invited Kara, Lisa, and Kelly Ann to the Indy 500, and I'm tagging along. We've got Lisa's '73 Mustang and my '69 Mercury Cougar convertible to bring to the show. Kara's squadron did the flyover for the Phoenix Indy 250 back in March, and Sarah found out the squadron CO's a girl, so she issued the invite. Wings of the Phantom hits the theaters that weekend, but we'll be at the Premiere the week before. It's good to see the 2003 and '07 Indy 500 champ and the '06 IndyCar champ playing host to the AF this time (last two years Sarah had the Army as her guests). And don't be surprised if Lt. Col. Kelly Ann Ray does show up when Kara jumps you. She's game as well.

Take a look at the Rag-Tag Circus (83rd ID); they used a lot of captured ComBloc hardware from the Missouri campaign all the way to the end on the Rio Grande. I'm sure some of that stuff BigWilly talks about got issued to the 83rd-especially a few of the 130-mm guns. The ALO for that division wound up having the desk across from me at HQ TAC when I "flew a desk" there; he has some crazy stories about that outfit, and how upset they were if the air and artillery strikes they called in were too effective (less opportunites for battlefield scavenging and "acquiring" new vehicles...). The ad hoc outfit made up of WW II armor from that collector wound up being part of the 83rd for a while, and the Army's history says that's where they got the idea for "appropriating" ComBloc vehicles and equipment.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: You mean Kara, don't you? She will be waiting, along with the 391st TFS, the Bold Tigers; that's the squadron she runs. Lisa just about had a coronary when she found out the challenge had been issued, but she's game as well.

She was right to have a coronary. There is a reason they call the Raptors unbeatable. I hope she's prepared for the whupping I'm gonna bring down on them. My F-22 guys are really, really good, too.

Matt Wiser said: Oh, and Sarah Fisher Racing invited Kara, Lisa, and Kelly Ann to the Indy 500, and I'm tagging along. We've got Lisa's '73 Mustang and my '69 Mercury Cougar convertible to bring to the show. Kara's squadron did the flyover for the Phoenix Indy 250 back in March, and Sarah found out the squadron CO's a girl, so she issued the invite. Wings of the Phantom hits the theaters that weekend, but we'll be at the Premiere the week before. It's good to see the 2003 and '07 Indy 500 champ and the '06 IndyCar champ playing host to the AF this time (last two years Sarah had the Army as her guests). And don't be surprised if Lt. Col. Kelly Ann Ray does show up when Kara jumps you. She's game as well.

Well, me and my buddy are likely gonna be in the Road Car 500 race, assuming I can qualify the supercharged S2000 in the race. I'm going up to VIR next weekend to take it for a test drive. Marco Andretti is gonna be giving me points on how to drive it. My buddy is testing it right now at IRP right now. AGR invited my buddy - Michael Andretti was a tank driver in the war, don't forget (27th Armored from the Pennsylvania NG, ended the war a Lt. Col), and they don't often forget many of the other warriors it seems. Hence, my friend called and asked me if I'd like to run too.

I'll be watching for Kara and Kelly. I hope they like watching me run in the road car race. It's a Honda S2000 with racing bodywork, car number 32.

Matt Wiser

Oh, we know a few things about the F-22: we've played with the F-22 guys in the Fighter Weapons School at Nellis, and have actually beaten them a time or two. Knowing the airspace in the various ranges in Utah and Nevada (where we do much of our flying) pays off very well at times. Even if Kara has to swarm you guys to get a shot at your F-22, she'll do it. And watch out for Lisa's Mustang at Indy: a gold '73 Mach I Mustang with black trim-she'll be driving, not me, but Kelly Ann will be at the wheel of the Cougar.

That Soviet cabal in the Kremlin-Keegan has some nasty words for them in the final chapter. "Never has so much bloodshed been laid at the feet of so few, who are unrepentant and unapologetic at all the death and destruction they caused." He has similar words for the now-unlamented and deposed Castro regime in Cuba, and the ultra-leftist government in Mexico City. (he wrote the book before we settled scores with Fidel, so keep that in mind) Not to mention that he feels that Western Europe redeemed itself somewhat in 1987-89, especially after the neutralist governments fell in West Germany, Italy, and the Low Countries, for example. Keegan feels that if the Greens had not heeded the advice of the Bundeswehr and resigned en masse, the West German Army would've been fully justified in a Coup d' Etat, given that half of the Green ministers were Soviet agents or otherwise on the Soviet payroll. (and the Greens were quick to realize that the majority of West Germans were appalled that their government was a paid stooge of the Russians and wanted no part of that was a major factor, once revealed, and that if there had been a coup, the military would've had popular support) The French, though, dropped their pretense of neutrality in 1987-88, and large amounts of NATO-standard tank, artillery, and small arms ammo began to be shipped across the Atlantic in convoys escorted by French and U.S. warships, something that Keegan calls "Better late than never." The U.S.'s Middle Eastern, Far Eastern, and Australian/NZ allies were much more reliable from Day one. And the U.K's contribution he praises to the utmost. Of course, China was a different story.....but at least the EASTERN EXPRESS missions were able to refuel over what had been PRC airspace on their way into Russia. And those SAC crews who did have to force-land or bail out over China found the Chinese who found them to be very receptive, willing to help, and most of them got out via Hong Kong, though a few got to the coast and caught a junk for Taiwan. (incidentally, read the book Down in China: The Baron 55 Story, for an excellent account of a SAC B-52 crew's 7-month odyssey in the chaos of China in 1987-88, and their trek to Hong Kong. If someone hasn't made a movie about this crew, somebody ought to)

And the U.S. and Canada? All we had to do was hold out (incidentally, that was the assessment of both the GRU and the Soviet General Staff, something the Politburo was definitely not interested in hearing). Which we did. Though the U.S. did pull back from world affairs for the first few postwar years, the need for oil and raw materials for postwar reconstruction meant that the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps were always out on the sea lanes, and on occasion, taking decisive action to protect the free flow of shipping. But as some posters here have already mentioned, within a few months of the end of the war, the Navy and Marines were "showing the flag" and saying "We're back" in a big way. While there's still a great deal of work to be done in the Manhattan-Newark blast zone, the signal for the world that the U.S. has largely rebuilt from the war will be D.C.'s reopening, Keegan feels. But he does say that the U.S. will likely settle old scores with Mexico at the very least, and will be watching and waiting for the ultimate end of the rump USSR. Until that happens, the war won't be totally over, in the minds of many Americans (and I'm one of them).

Matt Wiser

Mann: Kara will be practicing as she's able. She does go down to the Nellis Range areas and ask if any of the F-22s the FWS have want a pickup fight. More often than not, they accept. She's nailed a couple, so watch out. And if she brings the rest of the Bold Tigers to the party...they're always ready to cut a few Raptor jockeys down to size. (and they've done it, too; the CO of the F-22 section at FWS was one of their "victims." And no, he wasn't too happy about it) Last time the AF Chief of Staff visited Mountain Home, he and Lisa talked about the job she had running the 366th, and Kara's name came up. He said "Oh. That Kara." (her reputation from the war still rings bells among higher-ups) And Lisa said "Yes, sir. That one. And I wouldn't trade her for anyone else right now." Lisa does want Kara to get her shot at bird Colonel, so she can become Wing Deputy for Operations, then XO, then CO.

At least the Russian Republic and the other ex-Soviet republics did away with that collective agriculture nonsense. One irony is that the rump USSR buys their produce through third parties to help get through their periodic food shortages (which are common), but they won't deal directly, as they don't recognize any of the former Soviet Republics, Russia, or the FER as independent. Given that the FER, Russia, and the rump USSR all have nukes, and that they despise each other's existence.....anyone know if the Ukraine still has nukes? They did have a couple of ICBM bases and some Backfires IIRC, not to mention some SS-20s, and Army, AF, and Naval tactical nukes.

Sadly, that mass grave found during the I-49 construction looks like it's Gennady Bratchenko's handiwork. He was active in that part of Louisiana, and the bodies date from that time period (late '85 to mid '87). All were bound, blindfolded, and shot in the back of the head, execution-style. The bodies will be reburied in a grave near the right of way for I-49, according to CNN. A lot of relatives of people still missing in that part of Louisiana have been showing up to give DNA samples so that an attempt can be made to ID remains, as the bodies have nothing on them in terms of ID, just what's left of their clothing and that's it.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: Mann: Kara will be practicing as she's able. She does go down to the Nellis Range areas and ask if any of the F-22s the FWS have want a pickup fight. More often than not, they accept. She's nailed a couple, so watch out. And if she brings the rest of the Bold Tigers to the party...they're always ready to cut a few Raptor jockeys down to size. (and they've done it, too; the CO of the F-22 section at FWS was one of their "victims." And no, he wasn't too happy about it) Last time the AF Chief of Staff visited Mountain Home, he and Lisa talked about the job she had running the 366th, and Kara's name came up. He said "Oh. That Kara." (her reputation from the war still rings bells among higher-ups) And Lisa said "Yes, sir. That one. And I wouldn't trade her for anyone else right now." Lisa does want Kara to get her shot at bird Colonel, so she can become Wing Deputy for Operations, then XO, then CO.

If a 15-Echo jockey can take a Raptor, than the jockey isn't trying. This old dawg has a rep like Kara's. She can talk all the smack she likes, Colonel. I'm still gonna blow her away. I practice frequently, too, and my F-16 jockeys know their business. I hope she's getting ready. She's got too much of a rep to be a walkover.

Matt Wiser said: Sadly, that mass grave found during the I-49 construction looks like it's Gennady Bratchenko's handiwork. He was active in that part of Louisiana, and the bodies date from that time period (late '85 to mid '87). All were bound, blindfolded, and shot in the back of the head, execution-style. The bodies will be reburied in a grave near the right of way for I-49, according to CNN. A lot of relatives of people still missing in that part of Louisiana have been showing up to give DNA samples so that an attempt can be made to ID remains, as the bodies have nothing on them in terms of ID, just what's left of their clothing and that's it.

Damn. Well, I hope know they can get some proper burials. Yet another example of why we really oughta find and kill every single motherfucker who ever gave shoot to kill orders. They all deserve to die, if you ask me, especially those animals who did that to women and children. I don't know how a man can do that and tsill live with himself.

zakueins

Was working through Victor Davis Hanson's "The Great Patriotic Wars" while we're doing stress testing on the Altair II CM here (probably going to be ready for the first launches start of next year). He made some really great comparison of the three big battles-Denver, Great Planes, and the various resistance movements-with the three big battles of the "Great Patriotic War"-Stalingrad, Kursk, and the various "resistance" groups in conquered Russian territories.

His biggest one was Great Planes/Kursk-anybody disagree that the Soviets were suddenly playing the role of the Nazis? Apparently, the NG general in charge (Stollings, I think) ran over everybody, including regular Army guys, in how the battle was to be run. The Soviets expected maybe 600 or so tanks, mostly M-60s and what they got (after all the deception plans) was about 1100 tanks, 500 of them M-1s. The Soviet general was so completely snookered that by the time he realized what was going on, most of his best tanks had been destroyed-and they were on the defensive the rest of the war (he got shot, three weeks later-good riddance).

Oh, for all you space fans out there, I'm heading to Kennedy next week, we're doing a lift of Ishtar-5 up to Freedom by middle of November on a Jupiter-242. Once they get her fully kitted out, they'll have another tug for the Lunar run. They're already talking about expanding Lunar City to a permanent population of 100, and my company has a big part of that contract. Yay!

Matt Wiser

The guys at Nellis don't like it when she shows up-especially when the F-22 boys are busy: that's her style in dealing with Raptors. It works well enough....the senior F-22 FWS instructor there owes her a case of Sam Adams when he challenged her....and lost. (she still hasn't collected) Be very careful if you get jumped by F-15Cs, -15Es, or F-16s. She'll be around, like a lion stalking a herd of antelope, waiting for the right moment. The guys she nails never know what hit them until they hear her on the radio calling the shot. And ACMI doesn't lie.....

I agree completely: anyone involved with "rear area security" on the ComBloc side forfeits their right to live. Some of the Cubans now awaiting trial are accused of such activities, and there's plenty of evidence against them all. Now, which ones will flip on their buddies if it means a 40 year sentence in a 6x9 cell instead of a trip to the gallows? Having been on an E&E and witnessed what happened to civilians behind the lines, you get no complaints from me when those guys wind up in the dock. Hell, the only one who's shown any remorse is Colonel Bella, and that's mainly because he was an ex-guerilla fighter himself. The DGI, KGB, and GRU types, though....those people need to be done away with.

That NG General was Schwartzkopf's deception planner, if the various books are right. Schwartzkopf had Fifth Army from Fall '86 until the end of the war, but he listened to that fellow's ideas. Having accurate intelligence (how we got it all is still classified to this day-a 1980s version of ULTRA, anyone?) and the best of the SR-71 and U-2 imagery helped a lot. It was beating back that Wichita attack that laid the groundwork for PRAIRIE FIRE. Impaling a tank army and a pair of combined-arms armies on a well-fortified and dug in defense does have an impact....and having the PRAIRIE FIRE op plan ready to go once Ivan's attack stalled was a big help. No time for the ComBloc to organize a coherent defense until Fifth Army was on the Oklahoma state line, and past it in several places. I'll bet both Zhukov and Koniev were flipping in their graves....

JN1

Anyone hear some of the crazy stories about what The Resistance got up to during the war? Some of them sound like something out of Hollywood, e.g. the story that says that two teenage boys pretty much took out the Soviet garrison in a small town without any outside help, though it was said to be a suicide mission.
It's attributed to the famous Wolverines, but even for them it sounds a bit crazy.

If it is true then my respect for the Resistance grows even more.

Btw 24th Airmobile Brigade is now on the ground in Hong Kong, so watch this space for further news.
Talking of HK I've been offered a job as the 2.i.c of the new Canton Volunteers (planned to be very similar to the existing Royal HK Volunteers). It means being away from home for two years (how long the posting lasts) and being a full-time officer rather than a Territorial; I'll also be bumped up to Acting Major with a promise of the rank becoming substantive after a year.
I must say the prospect of being involved in the training of a new regiment is very attractive, as is the pay - the HK government would pay me as a substantive Major from day one and the allowances for serving in the Colony are excellent.

On the downside it means leaving my job in the UK for two years; even the Civil Service might not keep my post open for that long; leaving my family and friends for a long time, plus I've finally met a girl I like a great deal. I doubt that at this stage of our relationship she would want to move to HK.

I've a lot of hard thinking to do over the next few days.

Matt Wiser

They didn't take out the entire garrison, just entertained them. Colonel Bella in his book confirms what Sen. Mason says in hers; it was the two brothers, Jed and Matt, and they got themselves killed. But they killed a GRU general and a hotshot VDV colonel in the process. Btw, the General they killed was Gennady Bratchenko's brother. He was known in Southern Colorado as the Terror of Trinidad. Not to mention having a habit of WP'ing towns suspected of harboring guerillas, and giving the various "rear area protection" forces a free hand in going about their....business, shall we say? Until his death was confirmed by Colonel Bella after his defection, this Bratchenko was one of the first on the most-wanted list (which was compiled during the war), and one of the first to be crossed off of it. A few of those met premature ends thanks to either the resistance, SOF raids, or TacAir. A very few got killed in the occasional intramural blood-letting that the GRU and KGB waged with each other. Not as many as we would've liked, but some of the guilty parties paid before the war ended.

Has the book Down in China been printed over in the U.K.? That Buff crew spent several months going from northern China to the Hong Kong border; warlords, bandits, you name the obstacle, they had to get past it. The USAF air attache in Hong Kong was quoted in the book: it was the scruffiest crew he ever saw. Everyone was filthy, hadn't had haircuts in two or three months, and all were packing Chinese AK rifles. They said in the book that the Chinese (whether warlords, those claiming to be PLA-still loyal to the vaporized government in Beijing, and so on) were surprised at seeing a female SAC crew member (the copilot). She found out that using her feminine charms saved their bacon more than once. Then-Capt. Laura Regan is now CO of the 416th BW at Griffiss AFB in New York, and the photo section has her office wall, showing a map of China with the E&E route, a Chinese AK on the wall, and her Air Force Cross for the successful E&E. (some parts of China make the Wild West seem tame by comparison) They also found out that having her have a similar last name to President Reagan's made things easier in some places, as the Chinese thought she was somehow related to him. (who wants to delay a President's daughter or niece?) But a warlord tried to kidnap her, thinking that would get the U.S. to recognize his "liberated area" as a country. Needless to say, he failed. When I taught AFROTC, it was required reading for Juniors, and no doubt it's on the AF Academy's reading list. Rick Atkinson of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution (he was with the Washington Post, but was out of town on invasion day, and missed the nuke) is the author.

It's official: Bob Ballard has found the Kirov wreck. He had a news conference via ship-to-shore radio today on CNN: the wreck's about halfway between Havana and New Orleans, and the ship's on her port side in about 1800 feet of water. No radiation leakage detected so far, but the soil samples taken by the mini-subs and ROVs need to go to a lab for analysis. Ballard also said that some of the radar antennae are missing and some of the SS-N-19 missile tubes have been forced open and the missiles are gone. Which makes the theory that Naval Intelligence has been there already very plausable, but will the spooks confirm that? Not very likely. Ballard's now on his way to check out a Victor and a Charlie in the same general area for NOAA.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: They didn't take out the entire garrison, just entertained them. Colonel Bella in his book confirms what Sen. Mason says in hers; it was the two brothers, Jed and Matt, and they got themselves killed. But they killed a GRU general and a hotshot VDV colonel in the process. Btw, the General they killed was Gennady Bratchenko's brother. He was known in Southern Colorado as the Terror of Trinidad. Not to mention having a habit of WP'ing towns suspected of harboring guerillas, and giving the various "rear area protection" forces a free hand in going about their....business, shall we say? Until his death was confirmed by Colonel Bella after his defection, this Bratchenko was one of the first on the most-wanted list (which was compiled during the war), and one of the first to be crossed off of it. A few of those met premature ends thanks to either the resistance, SOF raids, or TacAir. A very few got killed in the occasional intramural blood-letting that the GRU and KGB waged with each other. Not as many as we would've liked, but some of the guilty parties paid before the war ended.

I know at least one of them bit the dust during Prairie Fire thanks to my guys and a squadron of A-7s we were covering. Lieutenant-General Marko Ariknayev, KGB. One of the A-7s got him with a Mk-82 during a run on a command post near Abilene, Texas. Good thing we got him, too - two A-7s and a F-18 didn't come home from that, and the two A-7 drivers were both KIA. The two squadrons got unit citations for that. Ariknayev is (apparently) the cocksucker responsible for the orders against civilians in the Abilene area, and his responses to rebel attacks was usually killing civilians. In at least a few cases, his men torched would break into a house and bind the family, then torch their house with them in it. He was also one of the first to be crossed off the list of people who really needed killing.

Matt Wiser said: Has the book Down in China been printed over in the U.K.? That Buff crew spent several months going from northern China to the Hong Kong border; warlords, bandits, you name the obstacle, they had to get past it. The USAF air attache in Hong Kong was quoted in the book: it was the scruffiest crew he ever saw. Everyone was filthy, hadn't had haircuts in two or three months, and all were packing Chinese AK rifles. They said in the book that the Chinese (whether warlords, those claiming to be PLA-still loyal to the vaporized government in Beijing, and so on) were surprised at seeing a female SAC crew member (the copilot). She found out that using her feminine charms saved their bacon more than once. Then-Capt. Laura Regan is now CO of the 416th BW at Griffiss AFB in New York, and the photo section has her office wall, showing a map of China with the E&E route, a Chinese AK on the wall, and her Air Force Cross for the successful E&E. (some parts of China make the Wild West seem tame by comparison) They also found out that having her have a similar last name to President Reagan's made things easier in some places, as the Chinese thought she was somehow related to him. (who wants to delay a President's daughter or niece?) But a warlord tried to kidnap her, thinking that would get the U.S. to recognize his "liberated area" as a country. Needless to say, he failed. When I taught AFROTC, it was required reading for Juniors, and no doubt it's on the AF Academy's reading list. Rick Atkinson of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution (he was with the Washington Post, but was out of town on invasion day, and missed the nuke) is the author.

One correction there, Matt. Major General Regan is one of my superiors now. Two stars on her shoulder, and she's one of the people in charge of the Sixth Air Force. Met her last month in Virginia. Brave woman, she is, and she's got the attitude that says "I can be your best friend or your worst enemy - choose wisely." Her office still has the map, the AF Cross and the AK, though. She's still qualified in the BUFF and apparently is also cleared for the Lancer and the Vark.

Matt Wiser said: It's official: Bob Ballard has found the Kirov wreck. He had a news conference via ship-to-shore radio today on CNN: the wreck's about halfway between Havana and New Orleans, and the ship's on her port side in about 1800 feet of water. No radiation leakage detected so far, but the soil samples taken by the mini-subs and ROVs need to go to a lab for analysis. Ballard also said that some of the radar antennae are missing and some of the SS-N-19 missile tubes have been forced open and the missiles are gone. Which makes the theory that Naval Intelligence has been there already very plausable, but will the spooks confirm that? Not very likely. Ballard's now on his way to check out a Victor and a Charlie in the same general area for NOAA.

Hmmm. I knew that Kirov was sunk, but as I recall a RN SSN and a pair of Canuck SSKs got the bastard off Cape Hatteras. Maybe it's a different Kirov, perhaps. Interesting about the missing SS-N-19s. Maybe the Cubans tried to get them, though in 1800 feet of water that's kinda hard. Yeah, the spooks like to know everything but not tell anybody else. I don't like those guys much, as you can probably tell.

DD951

Not surprised that ONI or some of their colleagues would pick over Kirov- those ships were bad news, and could be a serious threat to anything short of a full-on CVBG (the ones with full-size carriers, not the reactivated Essex-class ones), assuming they had a proper screen and air cover (and everything was working), as they had more raw missile firepower than any surface combatant we had, and even more than the abortive strike cruiser proposals of the 1970's, not to mention some very good AAW & point defenses by Soviet standards. (A Ticonderoga was a better AAW ship because of Aegis.) Frunze did a real number on several of the Alaska convoys the few times Ivan let it out to play as the centerpiece of a surface action group, and the entire TF that made the Vladivostok raid breathed a sigh of relief when we got word that one of our fast-attack boats (Bremerton, IIRC) took it out in the preliminaries- the only things that made us more nervous were the prosepects of facing down a multi-regiment Backfire and/or Badger raid using AShM's or a Soviet attack boat sneaking into the middle of the formation.

As for scumbags who got it before the end, I can add a KGB colonel by the name of Yazov who had a major hand in Pt. Roberts, and supposedly had a preferred method of reprisals against the civilian population that involved lining the hostages up against a wall and torching them with flamethrowers while making the rest of the locals watch in an effort to deter the population from supporting the allied forces, who got it from somebody's 5" shell during a NGFS mission at the Vancouver Airport.

There was also a rumor about another KGB colonel by the name of Petrov in Texas (Houston, San Antonio, & Dallas-Ft. Worth), and nearby areas, who had a similar MO- as the story goes, he was inspired to do that by a talk he had with that Phelps character. At the time, most of us on the Turner Joy, and those I've talked to since thought it was propaganda, because it seemed just a little too far over the top, even for the Soviets, but after some of the stuff I've read here, I have to wonder... Does anyone here know whether that stuff with the flamethrowers actually happened in either case, and if so, whatever became of that Petrov?

zakueins

Hey, any of you guys catch "Bookwise" on PBS this morning? Turns out that Colonel Bella is doing an autobiography, with a huge section on his time in WW III. He was on for an interview, looks to be in good shape if a bit thin. Joked with the interviewer about how his wife kept trying to keep him fed-no matter how much he ate, never gained a pound...

Answered a lot of questions about the book. Said that he hated a lot of what he had to do mid-war and beyond and kept trying to tell his KGB superiors that they were, in his words, "bathing in kerosene and dancing near the fire". He kept noting that the reprisals were doing nothing more than making people think that they had nothing to lose. That made his problems of keeping control so much harder-and, the KGB head of the area tended to regard him as little more than a sepoy solider, not worth listening to.

Apparently, the plan was to "keep a light hand and not kill the goose that laid the golden eggs", when he was assigned-round up the usual suspects, take away most of the guns, put "suitable and appropriate authorities in place", that sort of thing. He learned a few months later that the KGB/GRU had entirely different plans from the beginning and were planning on doing a full purge and clean of the area-round up religious figures and "break up the kulaks" sort of thing.

About the time of the Last Stand of the Wolverines, he was about to post his resignation. From the post-attack purges, he was lucky that the letter had burned in the attack and he kept trying to enforce military regs throughout, ordered a few executions, and felt like he was pushing a greased pig uphill. When he was captured, he offered to testify in as many war crime tribunals as he could. Became a Roman Catholic during his confinement, and is "active in the local community" sort of thing.

Great stinger line at the end-interviewer asked him about his politics now, and he said (quoting from memory here)-"I remain, in many ways, a socialist. I believe that there must be something better than the capitalist system that devours it's weakest members and discards them like the bones of a stripped cow. But, the alternatives that I have seen have all been paved by the unmarked graves of thousands of innocent people who's only sin is to not have been perfect before the Communist Moloch. Perhaps when the Millennium happens, there will be peace. But, until then, America and capitalism and freedom are the best of all systems for man."

Book's supposed to come out in March of 2010. Already have my copy pre-ordered on Amazon.

Matt Wiser

Colonel Bella wasn't captured: he defected. For those latecomers to the thread, after my E&E, several of us evadees got over the Rockies with a couple of resistance people as guides (Lori Sheppard, now a County Sheriff, was one of 'em). We were in Sallida, CO, where 7th ID (L) was based, and after our IDs were verified, got sent to a cafe that was doing a big business with the divisonal HQ in the town. All 12 of us were eating our first real meal since before shootdown, when this Cuban Colonel comes in, escorted by MPs and some Military Intelligence types. Instinctively, we all reached for our weapons (AKMs or AK-74s "acquired" from our time with the resistance), but the MI guys said "Take it easy, guys, he's a defector." They took a table near us and while waiting for their order, this Colonel starts talking. He really started talking after his meal was brought in. Although his English is very good, he talked mainly in Spanish. Not knowing Spanish, I only got his name: Bella. Lisa and I met him at the Victory Day air show at Scott AFB and one thing he told me was "I know about you, Colonel. And your escape-and-evasion." "How's that, Colonel?" "Simple: there was a Spetsnatz team doing some of what you call LRRP. They took some very excellent photographs of you and your party on your trek across the Rockies.The photographs and report arrived on my desk a few days before my defection." Turns out he came over with some files in his briefcase, and that report was one of 'em. Sheriff Lori Sheppard, when I called her about it, thought one of the group was a traitor. But she went back to where Bella said the photos were taken (by helicopter), and it's a location that anyone could observe traffic over the pass, and not be seen.

That Petrov name sounds familiar. Not sure what for, but his name was kicked around the targeting cell in 335 on more than one occasion as a high-value target to go after. Someone wanted him dead, but we never did go after him. Nor did we know why he was important enough for a full squadron strike to go after (which was on the table). Phelps, though, had more lives than a cat: people from Kansas to Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Texas more than once tried to kill him. And the F-111s went after locations where he was staying at least twice with the goal of sending him to face the hellfire he kept preaching about. And what was the KGB thinking when they started listening to him? "My enemy's enemy is my friend?" Sometimes that works, sometimes your new friend is more of a liability than an asset. If you judge someone by the number of attempts on his life, Phelps was certainly a liability by that score. When your new friend attracts a good many would-be assassins.....Just how big was the KGB's protection of him, anyway?

Hey Mann: the Scott Brothers sent us a DVD with some early footage from Wings of the Phantom, and the finished product will be great! They did include Kristy Swanson's scene as the naked CSP gal, and even though it was firelight for illumination, she was fully displayed, shall we say. They had to ask us twice if that incident happened: they heard about it, but thought it was a wartime legend. When they finally talked to the gal at K.I. Sawyer AFB up in Michigan, they got her side of the story. And yeah, she was really pissed that she and her boyfriend were....interrupted. Two Cubans KIA, one WIA and captured, and a few did get away-but the Apache trackers got 'em later. I do wonder if that Cuban refused repatriation at war's end. Knowing his likely reception amongst his fellow EPWs when they found out his story, the DGI wouldn't believe it if he did go back.

DD951

Matt Wiser said: That Petrov name sounds familiar. Not sure what for, but his name was kicked around the targeting cell in 335 on more than one occasion as a high-value target to go after. Someone wanted him dead, but we never did go after him. Nor did we know why he was important enough for a full squadron strike to go after (which was on the table). Phelps, though, had more lives than a cat: people from Kansas to Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Texas more than once tried to kill him. And the F-111s went after locations where he was staying at least twice with the goal of sending him to face the hellfire he kept preaching about. And what was the KGB thinking when they started listening to him? "My enemy's enemy is my friend?" Sometimes that works, sometimes your new friend is more of a liability than an asset. If you judge someone by the number of attempts on his life, Phelps was certainly a liability by that score. When your new friend attracts a good many would-be assassins.....Just how big was the KGB's protection of him, anyway?

If that Petrov was indeed one of those sick SOB's that the KGB liked to use to run rear-area 'security' , than that'd certainly have made him a priority targer, and if the stories I heard about his fondness for using flamethrowers in his work were true, then I'd imagine he'd really shoot to the top of the targeting lists. Don't know why the Soviets wold have hired Phelps- I'd have thought that religious fundamentalist leaders and people that far to the right would have been near the top of their purge lists- maybe they'd thought he'd be a 'useful idiot' to help with the terror tactics the KGB decided to go with. As for him being more of a liability than an asset, I doubt that the Soviets really thought along those lines considering the number of sick bastards of that ilk they had working for them. Maybe Panzerfaust knows something more about this, or Petrov, from his work dealing with war crimes, or Col. Bella's book might have something on the 'thinking' that was going on with the other side.

On the subject of Phelps, and the other collaboraters that the Russians turned over, or got picked up in Cuba, hear anything about whether a descision to try them in federal court or hand them over to military commissions has been made yet?

Matt Wiser

Not sure how this sicko wound up working for Ivan, but he apparently thought that the invasion was "God's Punishment" for everything he saw wrong, and the ComBloc was going to "purify" America. Like they say, you pay your money and take your chances. The KGB took a chance-and this weasel drew assassins like sugar does for ants. There were at least nine known assassination attempts on Phelps and his followers (they always traveled together with their KGB detail), not counting the F-111 strikes. He and his bunch were on a plane that left Brownsville, so the story goes, near the end. ISTR they did wind up in Moscow. As for Petrov, the only reason we didn't go after him was that we were very busy with our usual tasking (CAS, BAI, counter-air, and CAP). They gave the mission to VMA(AW)-121 instead. Never did find out if they got him or not.

The ones the Russian Republic handed over (all 5 of 'em) are due for military tribunals, as are the ones we picked up in Cuba who were active collaborators during the war. The lefties who went to Cuba after the war will probably wind up in Federal Court. At least that's what 419's legal officer thinks. (he's a high-priced lawyer in Salt Lake in his civilian job, so at least I asked him that question when he was in uniform-otherwise I'd get a bill) The Cubans accused of war crimes are going the military route as well. Since they're technically POWs, they get a general court-martial. A sizable leftie community still resides in Moscow, out of reach of the Russian Republic, not to mention us. But the ones still in Mexico City, though....one of these days, we'll settle scores with the Mexicans, and the lefties there, too. At least Managua had their coup a few years after the war ended, and those who wound up there either went to Cuba, Moscow, or posed for rifle fire along with the previous regime's leadership.

I noticed a new book from Osprey listed on Amazon: M-1A1 Abrams vs. T-80: Battle on the Plains. Folks tend to forget that the Battle of Wichita was the first combat use of the M-1A1 with the 120-mm cannon. (1st and 3rd ADs) Those 120s opened up the T-80 like a can opener, and the Army couldn't get enough of 'em as PRAIRIE FIRE got rolling. But Israeli Military Industries came up with an improved 105-mm sabot round that was almost as good as the 120, and the M-1s and M-60s used those rounds until the end. Those rounds were good enough that Ivan got the PLO to try an attack on the IMI plant-which failed miserably. I know 3rd ACR got the M-1A1s before LONG RIFLE (I flew over 'em enough), but anyone else here get those early -A1s?

zakueins

Lucky enough, my CO (Major Blundton, the best help a young butterbar like me could ever have) drove an M-1 throughout the war, gunner than OCS post-war. According to him, the Guinness Book of World Records "Longest Distance Tank Kill" was done by a M-1A1 in 3rd AD against a T-80 with the "super-sabot" round at 6,300 meters (he was in 1st AD). There were still some problems with the -A1's recoil buffers-they had a few failures, including a very spectacular one that blew through the ammo box (didn't set off the rounds, fortunately). But, the crews loved them-in theory, the -A1s were assigned to platoon COs, but they were usually given to the best gunners in the platoon.

The -A4 I commanded was great. Best tank in the world.

Matt Wiser

One of the ALOs with 3rd ACR said that in 3rd ACR during Winter '86-Spring '87 (during the buildup for PRAIRIE FIRE), the whole Regiment was reequipped with -A1s. They didn't unleash their tanks until the offensive got underway, but when they got let loose.....And when Lt. Col. Monica Vansen led 3/3 ACR into Waco, she rode in an -A1, with Cavalry Stetson, yellow ribbon, and all. I'll bet John Ford (the great director of Westerns) was looking down and smiling. The Marines were upset that they had only basic M-1s (1st, 2nd, 3rd MarDivs) or M-60s, but they did a good enough job with 'em. The Cubans and Nicaraguans III Corps initally faced during PRAIRIE FIRE never knew what hit 'em when 3rd ACR started shooting those big 120s. 1st Cav and 23rd Mech ID didn't get them until before LONG RIFLE, though, and only one Brigade in each division got the -A1s, the other two still had -1s in both. (5th Marine Division had M-60s-they started out with M-48s, but got M-60s by 1987)

Anyone here read Tom Clancy's Fighter Wing? He went down to the 347th TFW at Moody AFB in Georgia for his tour of a fighter outfit. 9th Air Force's Rapid-Response Wing is pretty good: two F-15 squadrons (one C and one E), an F-16 squadron, a Eagle Weasel squadron (the new F-15G), plus a B-52J and a KC-135R squadron each. (How they got SAC to allow Buffs and tankers to be OpConned to TAC I don't know-the last two AF Chiefs of Staff came out of SAC) And across the tarmac is the 16th Special Ops Wing with their brand-new Pave Ospreys to go along with their tried and true HC-130s. Technically, they're special ops, but their main tasking is Combat Rescue-being classed as a spec ops unit means they got higher priority for new equipment.

Fox greenlit Wolverines for next season. It's going to be based on the Wolverines, and Sen. Mason is going to be a technical advisor on the pilot-her run for Governor of Colorado is going to interfere with her working with the full season, but they found some SF types who did work with other guerilla bands to handle that job. (thank-you to Entertainment Tonight-which my wife watches)

[lordroel]

From page 69

Kevin in Indy

Got word that my nephew the Marine has been deployed to Hawaii - now my wife wants to go visit! By the way, happy birthday to and thank God for the USMC!

I was talking with my dad over the weekend and we touched on the subject of recycling. He saw metal drives and paper drives as a Boy Scout in WW II and saw city condemnation / reclamation procedings as a retiree in WW III. Some of the vacant lots were torn down to bare dirt and planted in veggies. I recall reading on earlier posts that some of you guys acquired some vintage rides - I know we had some scrapyards harvested for steel (which didn't hurt the post-war manufacturing recovery) - did any of you have hard times getting parts?

TheMann

I know a few people had troubles, but during the war everybody knew that all of the production capacity we had would be needed and that as a result everybody's cars had to keep running. Only stuff that was beyond saving got melted down where I was - and the local cops got a lot less worried about safety laws during the war, simply because everybody needed their cars, trucks and bikes, and new car production was much reduced, so they just let most of it be. The fact that the ComBloc pigs wrecked so much and stole so much didn't help, though.

Ah yes, the pathetic attempts by Combloc-ally Arabs to attack the Israelis. How many times did they try, and how many times did they fail miserably? The first time the Israelis held 'em on the heights, barely. But after that the Egyptians started playing the field and eventually sided with us, and the Israelis got lotsa good info for the second time the Syrians, Jordanians and Iraqis tried to hit them. They never even got over the border......

The Israelis were great at security, but I still think the South Africans are the kings at that. They came into the North American theatre (after raping the Cuban regiments Fidel stupidly left in Angola when the war started - we made sure he had no way or resupplying them) and while their divisions didn't have the armor for front-line material, their Rooivalk and Ratel APCs were wicked at base defense. Something with a 105mm gun that goes 70 miles an hour is not good news for a raiding party. And the Combloc learned that the hard way a bunch of times.

DD951

Matt Wiser said: ↑Not sure how this sicko wound up working for Ivan, but he apparently thought that the invasion was "God's Punishment" for everything he saw wrong, and the ComBloc was going to "purify" America. Like they say, you pay your money and take your chances. The KGB took a chance-and this weasel drew assassins like sugar does for ants. There were at least nine known assassination attempts on Phelps and his followers (they always traveled together with their KGB detail), not counting the F-111 strikes. He and his bunch were on a plane that left Brownsville, so the story goes, near the end. ISTR they did wind up in Moscow. As for Petrov, the only reason we didn't go after him was that we were very busy with our usual tasking (CAS, BAI, counter-air, and CAP). They gave the mission to VMA(AW)-121 instead. Never did find out if they got him or not.

The ones the Russian Republic handed over (all 5 of 'em) are due for military tribunals, as are the ones we picked up in Cuba who were active collaborators during the war. The lefties who went to Cuba after the war will probably wind up in Federal Court. At least that's what 419's legal officer thinks. (he's a high-priced lawyer in Salt Lake in his civilian job, so at least I asked him that question when he was in uniform-otherwise I'd get a bill) The Cubans accused of war crimes are going the military route as well. Since they're technically POWs, they get a general court-martial. A sizable leftie community still resides in Moscow, out of reach of the Russian Republic, not to mention us. But the ones still in Mexico City, though....one of these days, we'll settle scores with the Mexicans, and the lefties there, too. At least Managua had their coup a few years after the war ended, and those who wound up there either went to Cuba, Moscow, or posed for rifle fire along with the previous regime's leadership.

Thanks for the info on the tribunals- DOJ in DC is keeping things under very tight wraps- they're not telling those of us in the US Attorneys' Offices across the nation anything yet, and they probably won't unless they decide to let us handle some of the wartime collaborators, but I understand why they're being so secretive so far. It's not something I want to go into too much detail on an open forum, but since the war's been over for almost 20 years, and the federal courts are functioning, there's a potential constitutional objection to trying them by a military tribunal, and the top-level people want to make sure the responses to that are solid before proceeding and avoiding any embarassming complications such as the media going off half-cocked on a leak, or worse, getting surprised by a judge buying that argument. Even though there are a few of those I'd like to take a crack at, a military tribunal would be the most efficient way to deal with them, and the administration wants to keep it that way without getting derailed by some left-over leftist, or some wet-behind-the-ears recent law school grad who wants to make a name for himself but is too young, naive, and inexperienced to realize exactly how big of a can of worms he'd end up trying to open.

Matt Wiser

As far as military spares went, in 335, we initally got spare parts the hard way: F-4s that came back from a mission too badly shot up to repair, so the maintenance folks stripped them for usable parts. AMARC also helped a lot in getting aircraft parts to whoever needed them, big time. There were two main sources of new F-4 parts, though: Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI), which refurbishes the IAF's F-4s, and Mitsubushi Aircraft in Japan, which built the F-4 (and F-15) under license, and it didn't take long for them to get their F-4 tools and jigs out of storage and get cracking, first on new parts (wings, fuselage components, etc), but later on, new airframes. By 1988, half of the birds in our squadron were new-build Es from Japan. The ferry route was that JASDF pilots flew the birds to Okinawa, then USAF pilots took over, and they flew down to the Philippines (Clark AB), then east with tanker support to Kwajaelin, then Wake, Midway, and then Hickam AFB in Hawaii, before going to the West Coast. Those were really long hops....

The Israelis and Egyptians did a good job: the Egyptians kept Suez open (with covert assistance from the Israelis), and made sure that Libyan maniac stayed put in his own border. Jordan's King Hussein tolerated the Iraqis and Syrians in their attempted attack on the Golan, but he was pro-American, and Amman was one of a number of Mideast spy dens (Cairo was the other), where agents from both sides dealt with local agencies (and each other-often violently). King Hussein also warned the Israelis that the attack was coming, and they did get ready-they started too late (Deja vu? That happened in our case, remember? Too little, too late in getting ready) One of the spy murders in Cairo even made CNN once: seems a GRU agent was tossed into the Nile River wired to a cement block, the wire broke, and the body bobbed up in down across from one of Cairo's ritziest restaurants, much to the chagrin of the diners.

As far as the two muscle cars my wife and I have, no, not a problem in getting parts. Car and Driver magazine has had features on "Wheels of the War", and you'd be surprised how many cars from the '60s and early '70s still are going strong. If they start up the old Cannonball races again, it'll be a coin-toss as to which car we'd take. And I wouldn't call either the Mustang or the Cougar "vintage." "Classic Muscle" would be more like it. Kelly Ann Ray normally drives a Jeep, but she's taking some of the book and movie proceeds and buying an Olds 442 convertible from a classic car dealer in Vegas. Nuthin' wrong with old-fashioned muscle, even if Ralph "the Mouth" Nader still wails about 'em from time to time. He said once that in the wartime scrap drives, they all should've been sent to the crusher. He got hooted down for that more than once.

TheMann

It wasn't just the F-4s and F-15s that came from Asia, either. My last F/A-18 needed new engines late in the game, and they came to us on a freighter, made by Samsung Techwin in South Korea. I also know that the Turks, British and Koreans made F-16s for the war effort.

As for the parts problem, my new Corvette has never had problems finding stuff, of course. My brother has a '68 Mustang fastback, which he salvaged during the war. All he could get for it for an engine with a Pro-Stock engine from a builder in Oklahoma that had been ravaged. It still has that huge 500-cubic-inch monster motor. One of the AF crew chiefs tuned it for E85 fuel when he was off-duty apparently, and it runs fine. It's as fast as f**k, too. He ran in the Silver State Classic two years ago, won his class and finished third overall. :cool: Nader at least knew not to support the ComBloc or anything stupid like that, though he's still a pain in the ass. Not like any of us care. I love my Corvette, my brother likes his Mustang. Speaking of which, my dad tracked down a Lola T70 from the UK, a mess of course, but he wants to fix it. I wish him luck doing it. Good on Lt. Col Ray, a woman like that deserves the sort of car that gets attention, and a Olds 442 will do that. If they were to ever do a Cannonball again, I'd have to enter just for kicks.

Matt Wiser

I think the dividing line is that if the offenses alleged took place during the war, they get handled by the military. If the offenses took place postwar (like those running that radio show out of Havana, for example), it goes to Federal Court. But 419's legal officer wouldn't touch any of those cases if he was a regular criminal-defense lawyer. He said that a lot of JAG lawyers personally would rather prosecute than defend in a war-crimes case, but if they're ordered to defend a war criminal or wartime collaborator, even if the person's guilty, they say "Yes, Sir", and give their client the best defense they can, even if they know the defendant's guilty as hell. Some civilian lawyers do specialize in defending war-crimes defendants or accused collaborators, but if they've got politics, they keep it to themselves. Unlike prewar leftie lawyers....

sloreck

I got a vintage car in the weirdest way. When I transferred as MAGTF surgeon on the Tarawa, I was sent TAD to Baja to give some lectures to the Navy docs working with the Marines there. On the way back stopped at a cantina with a couple of HMs & while there the cooks son (10 y/o) fell out of a tree & broke his wrist (actually distal radius). She was freaked as medical services for the locals outside of the few big towns were always slim, and less with the war. We checked him over & even without XRay was obvious what the problem was - so I got some lidocaine out of a unit-1 numbed him up & reduced the fracture & put on the proper splint. Wrote out instructions with a "take care of this" note to the nearest US unit. Anyways she & husband were so grateful, they showed me old car been in some dudes garage forever, he was long gone & they said take it. It was a 1954 Hudson Hornet not bad shape. Got lucky again & for 2 six packs got a Marine driving back to Lejeune with an empty tank transporter to haul it back.

Long story short stored it until the end of the war, then had it restored with a little customizing - its my summer ride, and always turns heads. Its a dark metallic green with plates that say GRN HRNT.

Matt Wiser

At least Ralphie was one of those "patriotic liberals" as they liked to call themselves. Not every liberal was a leftie, far from it. And to prove it, a lot of 'em joined the military, or were with the Resistance. The ones who called themselves "Progressives" were the ones that the FBI kept an eye on, and a lot of them wound up in the slammer. A good many are still there-being found out as fifth columnists will do that. And they've also found out that the other cons despise traitors.

Any news on the A/FX program? The F-111s and early F-15Es need replacing soon, and the Navy needs an A-6 replacement. McDonnell Douglas has the F-25 Demon II prototype, while Grummann has the F-26 Sabrecat as their entry. Now the Congresscritters are trying to get the AF and Navy to buy the same plane, but remember the F-111 program's early days? The Navy version got cancelled for being underpowered, too heavy, and lack of manuverability. Anybody want to bet that the AF will buy the F-25, and that the Navy and Marines will get the F-26 (or F/A-26)? Too bad that when whichever one enters service, us WW III vets will either be flying desks or have retired.

Kelly Ann goes down to Vegas next weekend to pick up the car. Too bad the IndyCar championship was run a couple weeks ago, otherwise she'd be able to take in the race while she's down there. Now that was a real wall-to-wall race, with Tony Stewart barely edging out Sarah Fisher for the race win and the series title. Having a tribute to WW III's vets before the race was pretty nice, with the Thunderbirds doing the prerace flyby. One of the Cobra Chicks' Apaches was there too: I believe the Army sponsors Ryan Hunter-Ray's car along with Casey Mears. (why he's not driving for Penske like his Dad did....) Sarah didn't have a bad year: winning at Michigan and Kentucky, and runner-up at Indy (to Tony Stewart). That Patrick gal who drives for Andretti-Green didn't do bad either: she won at Nashville and at Phoenix.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: At least Ralphie was one of those "patriotic liberals" as they liked to call themselves. Not every liberal was a leftie, far from it. And to prove it, a lot of 'em joined the military, or were with the Resistance. The ones who called themselves "Progressives" were the ones that the FBI kept an eye on, and a lot of them wound up in the slammer. A good many are still there-being found out as fifth columnists will do that. And they've also found out that the other cons despise traitors.

To be fair, I am a social liberal, largely because the war taught me very well that one's skin color means absolutely fuck all to their professionalism or ability to fight. Nader is an idiot, but he's not a traitor. Most of them aren't. And yes, more than a few used the war to prove that liberal doesn't mean "traitor" or "pussy".

Matt Wiser said: Any news on the A/FX program?

The F-25 Demon II apparently flies well but isn't as stealthy as the F-26. It carries more ordinance, though. I'm not sure which one is gonna get the call. I know the F-111s in my unit are all getting upgraded to the F-111H standard now, and that comes with F-15E avionics and late-model GE engines. I suspect that the Vark and the Strike Eagle are gonna be around for a while yet.

Yeah, it is kinda disappointing that we'll never get to fly the next gen of fighters. I love my F-22 though. At least I'll be able to ask my kid how they fly, because he's close to getting his clearance to be a pilot.

Matt Wiser said: Kelly Ann goes down to Vegas next weekend to pick up the car. Too bad the IndyCar championship was run a couple weeks ago, otherwise she'd be able to take in the race while she's down there. Now that was a real wall-to-wall race, with Tony Stewart barely edging out Sarah Fisher for the race win and the series title. Having a tribute to WW III's vets before the race was pretty nice, with the Thunderbirds doing the prerace flyby. One of the Cobra Chicks' Apaches was there too: I believe the Army sponsors Ryan Hunter-Ray's car along with Casey Mears. (why he's not driving for Penske like his Dad did....) Sarah didn't have a bad year: winning at Michigan and Kentucky, and runner-up at Indy (to Tony Stewart). That Patrick gal who drives for Andretti-Green didn't do bad either: she won at Nashville and at Phoenix.

Smoke and the Bombshell (OOC: Bombshell is the base's name for Fisher) know their business, though the star of the show at Vegas was that Canuck dude Robert Wickens. That kid has 'Indycar Champion' written all over him. If only that idiot Busch would get out of the way from time to time. Danica knows her business too, though I'm sure she would admit that she gets outclassed by the Andrettis and that Brazilian guy Kanaan a little too often. As for Mears, Greg Moore is headed to Ganassi for next year, so a spot is open. Hopefully Casey is on top of that one like a pack animal.

Part of me gets a little embarassed with all of the tributes that guys like us get - I mean, we were just doing what we had been trained to do, defend our country. Yeah, we had the hairy spots at times, and both of us know what it's like to have to punch out of an airplane that is disintegrating. And yeah, it's a dangerous business and we are among the lucky ones who are still walking God's green Earth, but perhaps after 20 years......oh, screw that, I like getting free beers and getting away with speeding tickets and being treated like a celebrity. I guess I'm just too humble for my own good at times.

DD951

Well, here's hoping that the wartime collaborators can get sent before a military commission as customary, without anyone trying anything that would complicate things- after all, one of the great unstated advantages of military tribunals is that there's much less room for grandstanding, and much more focus on the evidence and law. Believe me, having dealt with just one grandstanding leftie lawyer in a prosecution of that sort of traitor is more than enough of that to put up with in a lifetime.

Oh, and I think that Kelly's going to love her 4-4-2. Back in the early 70's, had an uncle with a '69 convertible, red, white interior & top, fully loaded, really fast, handled great, and even got halfway-decent gas mileage (on a trip from Denver to Seattle, averaged about 17-18 MPG, no joke- must have had a fairly high rear-end gear in it.) Only drawback it had was that it was saddled with a Turbo 400- that slushbox really did suck a lot of power and took the fun and sportiness down a notch or two. Unfortunately, one night, while parked outside a restaurant, it became collateral damage in a high-speed chase- some drunken yahoo in a old truck was driving fast & erratically, lost control, and wrecked it & several other parked cars.

Just hope that none of the trim pieces get damaged- aftermarket support for the 4-4-2 & Cutlass (or the Skylark/GS) isn't as good as it is for the Chevelle & GTO, but still the GM A-bodies have the best support of all the mid-size stuff from back then. It could be worse- could be going for some of the early '60s stuff, a full-size, an AMC, or most post-war Ford products outside the early T-Birds, Mustangs & Cougars- the people trying to restore that stuff have to spend a lot of time at swap meets, or looking at classic car trader magazines, eBay, & Craigslist trying to track down NOS stuff, used items in good condition, and parts cars to find everything they need- spent a lot of time helping a buddy from the Turner Joy track down stuff for the '64 Galaxie 500XL with a R-code 427 he restored. At least I don't have that problem with the '71 Malibu I'm turning into a SS clone in my spare time.

Matt Wiser

You're not the only one; did you see Nancy Grace on her CNN show? That woman was practically livid when one of her guests raised the idea of putting wartime collaborators in Federal Court. I'm all in favor of giving them a fair trial-in military court. No grandstanding lawyers, no turning things into a media circus for the cameras, and all the rest. Anyone know the lowest sentence the military's given for collaboration? 419's legal officer thinks it was only five years, but he doesn't remember the details. Some of these folks picked up in Cuba or handed over by the Russian Republic are eligible for the death penalty, and given the attorney general we've got, anyone care to bet that he agrees with DOD (who's saying "Give 'em to us.")? The military appeals process is shorter, which is probably going to influence the AG's decision.

Kelly Ann is going to love that 442. I did tell her to come back up I-15 with as few speeding tickets as possible. Fighter pilots are all alike: the need for speed and all that: Lisa's on a first name basis with the Mountain Home PD and Elmore County SO it seems-they've pulled her over enough times when she drives that Mustang-but they're afraid of what might happen if they give the Wing CO over at the air base a ticket, so 90% of the time, she gets a warning. I know some of the troopers who work I-84 and I-15, because I take the Cougar down to Hill, and I've gotten pulled over more than once. (yeah, I consider the 75 MPH speed limit to be the minimum....) Being in uniform when I drive to and from Hill does help, but not always.

Ballard's back in the news again: he found a Charlie-II cruise missile boat about 300 miles south of Mobile. Only this boat's missing its bow and part of the conning tower. No radiation leakage, according to CNN, but they're taking water and bottom samples to be sure. He's pretty sure one of our fast-attack boats got in a pair of Mark-48 hits, because a single torpedo couldn't have done that much damage.

Moore should fit in at Ganassi with Scott Dixon, all right. Stewart's staying with Newman-Haas with Jeff Gordon (who won the '98 and '03 Indy 500s). Sarah, of course, runs her own team with herself and Katherine Legge from England (who was second to Sarah at Kentucky-first time an all-female team got 1-2 in any major race circut, but Danica lost to Sarah at Michigan by .0221 of a second), and Danica's staying with AGR for another three years. (Penske was bidding for her services, along with Newman-Haas, remember) Penske's going to a three-car run, so Casey Mears should fit in with Helio and Gil De Ferran, and he'll have his dad in the pits calling the shots. That all-Aussie team (Will Power and Ryan Briscoe) has been a serious threat the last two years, and Power won Indy in '06 for Penske, so he knows what he's doing.

DD951

Matt Wiser said: You're not the only one; did you see Nancy Grace on her CNN show? That woman was practically livid when one of her guests raised the idea of putting wartime collaborators in Federal Court. I'm all in favor of giving them a fair trial-in military court. No grandstanding lawyers, no turning things into a media circus for the cameras, and all the rest. Anyone know the lowest sentence the military's given for collaboration? 419's legal officer thinks it was only five years, but he doesn't remember the details. Some of these folks picked up in Cuba or handed over by the Russian Republic are eligible for the death penalty, and given the attorney general we've got, anyone care to bet that he agrees with DOD (who's saying "Give 'em to us.")? The military appeals process is shorter, which is probably going to influence the AG's decision.

Not really a fan of Nancy Grace, because of her own grandstanding on TV- if she were still actively practicing, she'd get into some hot water with the bar association if she said half the stuff she does about a case she's involved with. Having said that, however, I can understand why'd she go off- a lot of people would be livid if someone did succeed in getting them bumped into federal court. I mean, we can handle them if we have to, but still, we wouldn't have jurisdiction over war crimes that couldn't be put into normal criminal charges such as treason, murder, racketeering, theft, ect., the thing would turn into a circus, and the scumbags would almost certainly try to use the proceedings as a soapbox to boast about what they did and try to put America on trial, and all that crap... :mad: Only thing worse would be to have a military conviction tossed on appeal because the constitutional argument to try them in federal court turns out to be correct, so that's why DOJ's being cautious- they want to make sure they can beat that argument before handing anyone over to the military.

Actually, the lowest sentence I've heard for collaboration was about 2 and a half years- that went to some people who got press-ganged into the auxillaries and spent their time in the motor pool, painting rocks, on KP, that sort of stuff. A few cases of that nature ended up in federal and state courts, with the same outcomes.

Matt Wiser

Well, if Ms. Grace was my prosecutor, I'd sure want her. No surprise CNN has her on their network, she's good for ratings. A lot of the auxiliaries who'd been press-ganged or joined just to get three square meals a day happily turned on the hard-core types, and most of 'em got immunity from prosecution in exchange for their testimony. I still remember those in the EPW compound at Cannon after we retook the place: Intel, the JAG folks, AF OSI, FBI, U.S. Marshals, etc. were all interviewing the auxiliaries, and they had no honor among thieves: the rank and file were turning on the hard core right and left. But the auxiliaries, as long as they were in the EPW camp, were not trusted-and my crew chief wasn't the only one who wanted to toss any one of 'em down the intake of a Phantom. Even when we were offered a bunch to work on the base (under guard, of course) as day laborers, janitors, etc., the Marine Air Group CO (we were under MAG-12 during the war) said "No way in hell." It wasn't until after the war that those who turned on the leadership were released, and only then after the various trials were concluded. Still, if someone has "auxiliary" service linked to them, they'd better have proof they were press-ganged or had cooperated with postwar prosecutors, because hardly anyone's forgiven or forgotten what they did at the KGB, GRU, or DGI's bidding. And no one forgives if someone conceals "auxiliary" service, as some college professors have recently found out....some get arrested, and some get driven out of the country.

DD951

Matt Wiser said: Well, if Ms. Grace was my prosecutor, I'd sure want her. No surprise CNN has her on their network, she's good for ratings. A lot of the auxiliaries who'd been press-ganged or joined just to get three square meals a day happily turned on the hard-core types, and most of 'em got immunity from prosecution in exchange for their testimony. I still remember those in the EPW compound at Cannon after we retook the place: Intel, the JAG folks, AF OSI, FBI, U.S. Marshals, etc. were all interviewing the auxiliaries, and they had no honor among thieves: the rank and file were turning on the hard core right and left. But the auxiliaries, as long as they were in the EPW camp, were not trusted-and my crew chief wasn't the only one who wanted to toss any one of 'em down the intake of a Phantom. Even when we were offered a bunch to work on the base (under guard, of course) as day laborers, janitors, etc., the Marine Air Group CO (we were under MAG-12 during the war) said "No way in hell." It wasn't until after the war that those who turned on the leadership were released, and only then after the various trials were concluded. Still, if someone has "auxiliary" service linked to them, they'd better have proof they were press-ganged or had cooperated with postwar prosecutors, because hardly anyone's forgiven or forgotten what they did at the KGB, GRU, or DGI's bidding. And no one forgives if someone conceals "auxiliary" service, as some college professors have recently found out....some get arrested, and some get driven out of the country.

With Ms. Grace, it' s just that the way she comports herself on TV would run afoul of parts of the rules governing legal ethics and courtroom practice concerning publicity, decorum in the courtroom toward witnesses and opposing counsel (not to mention the judge & jury), what sort of arguments one can make from the admissible evidence, and not being deliberately inflammatory if she tried it in court- at the very least, there'd be a mistrial (and if she was a prosecutor, a mistrial due to her engaging in misconduct would make it impossible to retry the perp, since it would be double jeopardy)- what makes for good TV isn't necessarily good, or even ethical legal practice.

As for those auxiliaries who got 2 and a half, as far as I know, they were ones who cooperated but didn't have anything useful beyond a confession to their own activities to offer and hadn't really done anything nasty, engaged in combat, been involved with POWs or civilian detainees or anything beyond non-combat scut work at a base, or didn't cooperate but had only been in for a brief period, and hadn't been involved in anything- basically weren't considered important enough by a temporary special prosecutor to bother with doing more than the minimum to convict them and only put in enough effort to get a sentence at the low end of the range; most of them probably should have gotten at least twice that. However, that guy soon found out the DOJ no longer required his services, and last I heard, he was doing divorces, personal injury, some DUI and criminal defense in a particularly nasty part of South-Central L.A.; a couple mid-level JAG officers involved in the military side of things got relieved for cause at about the same time, although I don't know exactly why, or where they ultimately ended up.

sloreck

I'm just as hard core on collaborators as anyone, given my personal history. Having said that anyone who was genuinely press-ganged in to the auxiliaries AND never did the bad stuff - was motor pool, cook etc. probably should have been let off with some sort of monitoring probation and of course made to cooperate fully. After all when they knocked at your door & said come now how much choice did you have, especially if you had family that would be punished if you ran. Those who volunteered (for any reason) needed to do jail time, and those who even shot at troops in combat ALL should get the needle - period. For the torturers etc, well suspension of the "cruel and unusual punishment" line in the Constitution would have been appropriate. The Vikings had one called the living corpse.....

Matt Wiser

A lot of the rank and file (the ones who'd been press-ganged or joined just to get three meals a day) got some kind of deal (immunity in exchange for testimony, probation, etc.) from the prosecution. The ones who didn't take the offer were the ones who did 3 to 5. The hard-core ones either got death (richly deserved), multiple life sentences, or a number of years so long they'd be dead before even a chance at seeing a parole board. Then again, many of the hard-core met a violent end at the hands of the resistance, or were done in by SOF raids. At least those hauled into military court found out how despised they were, because there were members of their own units, locals, ex-POWs, and even EPWs testifying against them. Then there was the occasional intramural blood-letting, as some units fought each other. But none of 'em showed any remorse AFIK. The rank and file, though, were quite different

TheMann

DD951 said: Well, here's hoping that the wartime collaborators can get sent before a military commission as customary, without anyone trying anything that would complicate things- after all, one of the great unstated advantages of military tribunals is that there's much less room for grandstanding, and much more focus on the evidence and law. Believe me, having dealt with just one grandstanding leftie lawyer in a prosecution of that sort of traitor is more than enough of that to put up with in a lifetime.

Amen here, too. I can understand some people saying that the commissions are biased if they know little about it - I mean, when the defense and prosecution and judges all have the same employer, its natural that they will want to think you guilty - but the tribunals do a much better job of presenting evidence than many civilian courts. It would be better if once in a while somebody told these grandstanding showboats in court that their job is not to make themselves look like heroes. If I'm paying a lawyer $500 an hour, he better do his god damn job more than act like a Broadway performer or Robert DeNiro.

DD951 said: Oh, and I think that Kelly's going to love her 4-4-2. Back in the early 70's, had an uncle with a '69 convertible, red, white interior & top, fully loaded, really fast, handled great, and even got halfway-decent gas mileage (on a trip from Denver to Seattle, averaged about 17-18 MPG, no joke- must have had a fairly high rear-end gear in it.) Only drawback it had was that it was saddled with a Turbo 400- that slushbox really did suck a lot of power and took the fun and sportiness down a notch or two. Unfortunately, one night, while parked outside a restaurant, it became collateral damage in a high-speed chase- some drunken yahoo in a old truck was driving fast & erratically, lost control, and wrecked it & several other parked cars.

Was that in Seattle? When I was a kid, my dad's '65 Buick Riviera got wrecked in a chase just like that, and one of the other cars that hit - by a drunk-ass moron in a pickup - was a red 4-4-2 convertible. Jeebus, your dad and mine might have been victims of the same drunk! Good lord, what a small world it is.

I learned to drive in my dad's '80 Corvette. He had that car, except a friend of his loaned it from him, and the car got blown up by some Combloc ammo when they raided the Navy Piers in Seattle during the SNAFU amphibious raid. Dad wasn't happy about that. But after the war, on one of his flights delivering airplanes for Boeing (to the AF in this case - a KC-767 in this case, he said), he found a '75 Lamborghini Countach LP400 in a barn. A guy had hidden it there during the war to stop it from being looted apparently, but he died in the war, and the farm owner had no use for it. My dad shipped it home - though the train he shipped it home on derailed, thankfully the car wasn't smashed to pieces - and while it took him years to fix it, he did it. He couldn't get the original motor for it, though - so a 5000QV unit from another wrecked Countach went in. It's painted silver, and he made his own scoops for extra air cooling from scraps Boeing had left over. You can probably guess how much he loves that car.

DD951 said: Just hope that none of the trim pieces get damaged- aftermarket support for the 4-4-2 & Cutlass (or the Skylark/GS) isn't as good as it is for the Chevelle & GTO, but still the GM A-bodies have the best support of all the mid-size stuff from back then. It could be worse- could be going for some of the early '60s stuff, a full-size, an AMC, or most post-war Ford products outside the early T-Birds, Mustangs & Cougars- the people trying to restore that stuff have to spend a lot of time at swap meets, or looking at classic car trader magazines, eBay, & Craigslist trying to track down NOS stuff, used items in good condition, and parts cars to find everything they need- spent a lot of time helping a buddy from the Turner Joy track down stuff for the '64 Galaxie 500XL with a R-code 427 he restored. At least I don't have that problem with the '71 Malibu I'm turning into a SS clone in my spare time.

Yeah, finding many of the pieces is a pain. Not many guys make NOS stuff for rarer restorations. Getting it for most GM stuff is fairly easy. It's harder for Ford (aside from the Mustang and T-Bird, of course) and Chrysler. Don't even try for AMC stuff, rarer than hen's teeth.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: Kelly Ann is going to love that 442. I did tell her to come back up I-15 with as few speeding tickets as possible. Fighter pilots are all alike: the need for speed and all that: Lisa's on a first name basis with the Mountain Home PD and Elmore County SO it seems-they've pulled her over enough times when she drives that Mustang-but they're afraid of what might happen if they give the Wing CO over at the air base a ticket, so 90% of the time, she gets a warning.

Ah, so I'm not the only person who gets away with an inconceivably large number of speeding tickets. Hell, I got a warning just last night. I was driving my pickup ('05 GMC Sierra) home from Raleigh after picking up my daughter from a friend's party (she had a couple too many and called me - good girl), got nailed for 67 in a 45. Cop recognized me and let me off with a warning. I take such things seriously, though. I'll save it for when I go to Indy in May.

Matt Wiser said: I know some of the troopers who work I-84 and I-15, because I take the Cougar down to Hill, and I've gotten pulled over more than once. (yeah, I consider the 75 MPH speed limit to be the minimum....) Being in uniform when I drive to and from Hill does help, but not always.

Yeah, when I'm in the Corvette on the highway, I usually keep it up around 90 or so......though Lord knows I was on a first name basis with the Florida Bureau of Law Enforcement's Daytona Beach division. The North Carolina State Troopers know me, too. Some of them rather don't like having fighter pilots push themselves and their cars, but I think all of them know we drive fast but not stupid. You can be perfectly safe at 90 or horribly unsafe at 55, and the police know the difference.

Matt Wiser said: Ballard's back in the news again: he found a Charlie-II cruise missile boat about 300 miles south of Mobile. Only this boat's missing its bow and part of the conning tower. No radiation leakage, according to CNN, but they're taking water and bottom samples to be sure. He's pretty sure one of our fast-attack boats got in a pair of Mark-48 hits, because a single torpedo couldn't have done that much damage.

I wonder which of our SSNs got that one. Two top hits from the bow means somebody snuck up on him. Perhaps a Seawolf or a good LA class? Or maybe a steel-balled Ohio driver? I know USS Michigan got a Soviet CV and lived to tell about it - brave guy, doing that with a boomer. I don't think any of the Charlie class subs survived, did they?

Matt Wiser said: Moore should fit in at Ganassi with Scott Dixon, all right. Stewart's staying with Newman-Haas with Jeff Gordon (who won the '98 and '03 Indy 500s). Sarah, of course, runs her own team with herself and Katherine Legge from England (who was second to Sarah at Kentucky-first time an all-female team got 1-2 in any major race circut, but Danica lost to Sarah at Michigan by .0221 of a second), and Danica's staying with AGR for another three years. (Penske was bidding for her services, along with Newman-Haas, remember) Penske's going to a three-car run, so Casey Mears should fit in with Helio and Gil De Ferran, and he'll have his dad in the pits calling the shots. That all-Aussie team (Will Power and Ryan Briscoe) has been a serious threat the last two years, and Power won Indy in '06 for Penske, so he knows what he's doing.

Moore and Dixon will be like two peas in a pod, and even Cheapo Ganassi knows that those two are good guys, though he has a lot of making up to do with me for ditching Jimmy Vasser and Alex Zanardi at the same time because both wanted more cash. Stupid idiot. Gordon and Stewart is ALWAYS a deadly combo (especially when Smoke is pissed off - how he didn't get a penalty for ramming Davey Hamilton out of the race at Milwaukee is beyond me), and NHR know their business. I hope Paul Newman gets well soon, though. Mario is doing a good job helping his best friend, but Newman is the great guy of the paddock. Met him at Miami last year, a great man all around. Hopefully he's back when the series gets to Charlotte next year.

I don't where Sarah found Katherine Legge, but that's another case of two peas in a pod, and both are really good, though Kat kinda struggles at some tracks. (But so does Danica, for that matter.) The Australia Squadron guys are pretty good too, though Briscoe needs to stop crashing cars or Rupert is gonna eventually fire him. Murdoch isn't the most patient man, after all. So Helio is taking over from Little Al? Can't say that's a bvad choice, though it ain't gonna be the same without Little Al around, but he's earned his retirement after 21 seasons. Hopefully he's got team ownership in his future though. Hell, Penske owes it to him, considering they ran together for sixteen seasons, three Indy 500s and a series title, yeah Roger should help him into that game.

It came out today that Vasser and Zanardi are gonna set up their own team, complete with help from a couple Australians who want to go beat up on Murdoch's boys. Give 'em hell, Alex and Jimmy, and make sure you beat up on Ganassi's crew, teach 'em why he shoulda reupped on your contracts.

Matt Wiser

Having a good relationship with the Mountain Home PD and the County Sheriff helps, especially given that the Police Chief and the Sheriff are both vets. Highest ticket I've gotten was on the I-84: 91 in a 75, just past the Utah line, though. And that time, the uniform did not help.

Looks like things will be looking up at Hill: that snobby CO of the 388th TFW got booted upstairs to a desk job at TAC HQ, so his XO (ROTC grad) is taking over the wing. I get along a lot better with the XO than his boss, so the active-reserve relationship is going to be a whole lot better. The XO is another vet: F-16s in 1988-89, with 12 kills (he flew with the 363rd TFW in Texas and a few strikes into Northern Mexico), so I think we'll get along fine. The base commander's an Academy grad, but at least he knows the AF isn't just for those who went to the Mile High School (Colorado Springs). The fact that the Reservists on his base outfly the active boys and girls in their F-16s helps, too. I think the old 388th CO also didn't like the fact that the "Weekend Warriors" got the best of him personally more than once. It felt good taking down that snob. Oh, and Kara nailed the F-22 Fighter Weapons Squadron CO today. He was RTB after "expending" all his ordnance, except for guns, whe he saw a lone F-15E below him. The guy couldn't pass up an easy kill, so he went down on the -15E. It was Kara's wingmate. Kara was waiting upsun, radar off. She just came down on the guy and "shot" two Sidewinders. The range telemetry doesn't lie. He now owes her two cases of Sam Adams.

Not sure who did kill that Charlie, but there's a history of the sub force coming out next year. Chances are, we'll find out who got what and when. Except for Blind Man's Bluff, and plenty of mention in the Navy's official history of the war, there hasn't been much else about the sub force; mainly because many of the LA-class boats that fought in the war are still in service. Be glad we decided to go straight from the LA-class boats to the Seawolfs-there's still plenty of trouble out there, and keeping an eye on the boomers the Russian Republic and the FER have is still necessary, even though those missiles are likely aimed at each other and not us. Ballard's now on the hunt for a Victor about 200 miles South of New Orleans.

Too bad about Tony Renna, though; he got killed in '03 testing at Mid-Ohio for Penske, after Little Al had a concussion at Indy, and he was going to fill the seat while Al recovered. When Sarah expanded her team, she had a choice between Katherine and Leilaini Muntier, and Katherine turned out to be a fine choice. Leilani does drive Sarah's Indy Lights car, though. Just as long as IndyCar keeps A.J. Foyt IV off the track; how many times has he crashed and taken out two or three others? Danica slugged him at least once after a crash at Phoenix last year, and Sarah did the same after taking her and de Ferran out at the '06 Indy 500. Sarah's also got unfinished business with Jacques Lazier-he put her into the wall twice-at Indy and at Michigan ('02 and '03)

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: Having a good relationship with the Mountain Home PD and the County Sheriff helps, especially given that the Police Chief and the Sheriff are both vets. Highest ticket I've gotten was on the I-84: 91 in a 75, just past the Utah line, though. And that time, the uniform did not help.

Sometimes the cops don't really care if you have a uniform on. I've had that problem too. And yes, having good relationships with the local PD and County cops help.

Matt Wiser said: Looks like things will be looking up at Hill: that snobby CO of the 388th TFW got booted upstairs to a desk job at TAC HQ, so his XO (ROTC grad) is taking over the wing. I get along a lot better with the XO than his boss, so the active-reserve relationship is going to be a whole lot better. The XO is another vet: F-16s in 1988-89, with 12 kills (he flew with the 363rd TFW in Texas and a few strikes into Northern Mexico), so I think we'll get along fine. The base commander's an Academy grad, but at least he knows the AF isn't just for those who went to the Mile High School (Colorado Springs).

Yeah, it always feels good when somebody you don't like has to go to a new post so that you don't have to deal with him or her again. I don't quite understand why some of the active duty guys hate on the reservists. It makes no sense - we're all fighter pilots, and one day, that "Weekend Warrior" might save your ass. I have a reserve F-16 squadron at Seymour-Johnson, and these guys who their business. I personally make no distinction between active duty and reservist pilots if they know how to fly and know the rules. And the overwhelming majority do.

Matt Wiser said: Oh, and Kara nailed the F-22 Fighter Weapons Squadron CO today. He was RTB after "expending" all his ordnance, except for guns, whe he saw a lone F-15E below him. The guy couldn't pass up an easy kill, so he went down on the -15E. It was Kara's wingmate. Kara was waiting upsun, radar off. She just came down on the guy and "shot" two Sidewinders. The range telemetry doesn't lie. He now owes her two cases of Sam Adams.

If she wants to get me and my boys, she'll have to do much better than that. I don't pass up easy kills, but I know a decoy when I see one, and that one's fairly obvious. A lone anything just cruising is too damned obvious. And flying radar-off always raises my suspicions too, because the radars these things have are designed to see everything, and if something is out there that isn't producing a radar signal, that to me says trouble, too. I've seen F-16 and F-15 pilots play that trick on each other. I don't think Kara will get that kill again.

Matt Wiser said: Not sure who did kill that Charlie, but there's a history of the sub force coming out next year. Chances are, we'll find out who got what and when. Except for Blind Man's Bluff, and plenty of mention in the Navy's official history of the war, there hasn't been much else about the sub force; mainly because many of the LA-class boats that fought in the war are still in service. Be glad we decided to go straight from the LA-class boats to the Seawolfs-there's still plenty of trouble out there, and keeping an eye on the boomers the Russian Republic and the FER have is still necessary, even though those missiles are likely aimed at each other and not us. Ballard's now on the hunt for a Victor about 200 miles South of New Orleans.

Ballard is astoundingly good at finding things, so I don't doubt he'll track down that Victor. And its good to know that somebody is watching out for whether we have those nasty Soviet nukes leaking radiation into the Gulf.

And I hope that along the way Ballard finds a Sovremenny down there with its bow blown off. That would likely be the one that Alabama got with her big 16-inchers during the war. We were trying to stop that amphib assault group, and while the subs and us were working well and more than a few AShMs had been shot off, there was still other ships out there. So the surface ships moved in hit the convoy. Larwence and Towers opened up on 'em with the five-inchers, which the Soviets responded with shooting a coupe anti-ship missiles at 'em. They got the hell out of Dodge and called Alabama and Massachusetts, which were with the forces at the time. Alabama got there first and opened up - and I know she hit that Sovremenny because I was on my way back (from blasting that Rogov) and was about to strafe the bastard when all of a sudden I saw a glint, then evrything forward of the bridge disintegrated in one massive explosion. I jerked around it, and could see behidn me a second later another big blast, and the thing sank like a stone. I was over Alabama a minute or so later, and she was firing away. I later found out that she had smoked that Sovremenny and a Krivak that was after the SSNs with her big guns. I can only imagine what one of those shells would do to a Krivak.

Matt Wiser said: Too bad about Tony Renna, though; he got killed in '03 testing at Mid-Ohio for Penske, after Little Al had a concussion at Indy, and he was going to fill the seat while Al recovered. When Sarah expanded her team, she had a choice between Katherine and Leilaini Muntier, and Katherine turned out to be a fine choice. Leilani does drive Sarah's Indy Lights car, though. Just as long as IndyCar keeps A.J. Foyt IV off the track; how many times has he crashed and taken out two or three others? Danica slugged him at least once after a crash at Phoenix last year, and Sarah did the same after taking her and de Ferran out at the '06 Indy 500. Sarah's also got unfinished business with Jacques Lazier-he put her into the wall twice-at Indy and at Michigan ('02 and '03)

Renna's dad, Major Paul Renna, is one of our own, too. He's a F-16 pilot for the Indiana ANG and a war vet, and my buddy Col. Murphy is his commanding officer. Mark was at Tony's funeral, and Major Renna hasn't been the same since, he tells me. You woulda guessed that after Moore and Tommy Kendall cheated death within two weeks of each other in rollover accidents that Indycar woulda wised up and mandated better roll bars. At least they have now, but it took Tony dying far too young to do it. The rule book is written in blood is what one of my reservists, who is a railroad engineer in his civilian life, has said to me about safety rules. I agree with him, though in not the same way I would guess.

It's official today - Al is going into a team boss job. Sure enough, he's got a deal to buy two new PC35 chassis' from Penske, and he's looking for at least one driver, hopefully two. Way to go, Little Al.

I didn't know that Sarah had to choose between Legge and Leilani Munter. Damn, that would be a hard choice for me, in more ways than one. As for Quattro, that kid can drive, but he's like Briscoe - lots of talent, lots of speed, NO sense of when to slow down so that you don't crash. There is a reason that Foyt IV destroyed the Indy Lights championship a few years back. He's like his grandpa, then. He'll eventually learn, and when he does we'll see more of him again. And Sarah can deck him again.

[lordroel]

From page 70

DD951

TheMann said: Amen here, too. I can understand some people saying that the commissions are biased if they know little about it - I mean, when the defense and prosecution and judges all have the same employer, its natural that they will want to think you guilty - but the tribunals do a much better job of presenting evidence than many civilian courts. It would be better if once in a while somebody told these grandstanding showboats in court that their job is not to make themselves look like heroes. If I'm paying a lawyer $500 an hour, he better do his god damn job more than act like a Broadway performer or Robert DeNiro.

The military commissions actually do very good job fair and efficient- the issue with trying this latest batch of collaborators we got from Russia & Cuba is whether it's constitutionally permissible to try them in a military tribunal for things other than war crimes since its 20 years after the fact and the civil courts are functioning fine. My instinct is yes, but there's a substantial argument the other way, and DOJ wants to have it beat before handing anyone over to the military, lest the convictions get tossed because of that and double jeopardy makes it impossible to retry them in federal court, leaving justice to whatever county prosecutors can figure out under state law under the circumstances.

With the showboating, I've found that generally occurs when a lawyer has a political axe to grind, in personal injury cases, and a few criminal defense attorneys who use it to try to obsfucate things when they don't have much else to work with.

Was that in Seattle? When I was a kid, my dad's '65 Buick Riviera got wrecked in a chase just like that, and one of the other cars that hit - by a drunk-ass moron in a pickup - was a red 4-4-2 convertible. Jeebus, your dad and mine might have been victims of the same drunk! Good lord, what a small world it is.

It was my uncle, but it was near Seattle, at a local landmark diner along Highway 99 in Kent.

I learned to drive in my dad's '80 Corvette. He had that car, except a friend of his loaned it from him, and the car got blown up by some Combloc ammo when they raided the Navy Piers in Seattle during the SNAFU amphibious raid. Dad wasn't happy about that. But after the war, on one of his flights delivering airplanes for Boeing (to the AF in this case - a KC-767 in this case, he said), he found a '75 Lamborghini Countach LP400 in a barn. A guy had hidden it there during the war to stop it from being looted apparently, but he died in the war, and the farm owner had no use for it. My dad shipped it home - though the train he shipped it home on derailed, thankfully the car wasn't smashed to pieces - and while it took him years to fix it, he did it. He couldn't get the original motor for it, though - so a 5000QV unit from another wrecked Countach went in. It's painted silver, and he made his own scoops for extra air cooling from scraps Boeing had left over. You can probably guess how much he loves that car.

Yeah, finding many of the pieces is a pain. Not many guys make NOS stuff for rarer restorations. Getting it for most GM stuff is fairly easy. It's harder for Ford (aside from the Mustang and T-Bird, of course) and Chrysler. Don't even try for AMC stuff, rarer than hen's teeth.
It would be a bit hard to find anyone making new NOS stuff (ooc: NOS: New Old Stock- surplus parts inventory, service replacement parts, & stuff sold over the parts counter for dealer or owner-installed upgrades from back then, but never used; very highly prized in restorations), but the reproduction market isn't very good. There's a couple places that specialize in Chryslers, and Year One has a good selection of stuff for the more popular Chryslers.

Sucks about your dad's Corvette, although that Lamborghini sounds like quite the find. Afraid I didn't have anything so exotic to learn how to drive in- got a hand-me-down '75 Mailbu from my grandfather that had so many problems it must have been built on a Monday. Got rid of it as soon as they started selling new cars again after the war- got a good deal on a Sonoma extra-cab 4x4, since I happened to need a truck at the time.

Matt Wiser

Kara knew the man's habits, studied them, his plane, everything. She knew to present him a situation where he couldn't pass up an easy kill. (he has a reputation for that) She'll study you, your tactics, your plane, and find a way to beat you. And Kara has friends at Seymour-Johnson, Mann; so be warned. She will be well prepared.

Funny thing, that; the active-reserve rivalry disappeared during the war, only to come back postwar, once the Guard and Reserve were released from active duty and back to reserve status. I met a vet who'd been in both WW II and Korea-he was a Sgt. in the 40th ID during the Philippines campaign in 1945 and a 2nd Lt. in Korea. Same thing after both: rivalry between regulars and Guard (or Reserve) prewar, ends while the shootin's going on, comes back when it's done. We're all on the same side, but that snob who will be leaving the 388th couldn't get it out of his head-that the reserves fly just as good as the regulars, in many cases are more experienced than the regulars, and not every unit CO went to Mile High (OCS/ROTC slang for the AF Academy).

Sarah's team still drives the Dallaras, and her team's record proves that they still work very well. Andretti Racing, Dale Coyne Racing, Team Australia, and A.J. Foyt Motorsports have also had plenty of success with the Dallara. Btw, did you hear that Sarah hired her old team owner, Derrick Walker, to help run the shop and be their chief race strategist? I imagine it'll take some getting used to: Sarah giving Derrick orders instead of the other way around.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: Kara knew the man's habits, studied them, his plane, everything. She knew to present him a situation where he couldn't pass up an easy kill. (he has a reputation for that) She'll study you, your tactics, your plane, and find a way to beat you. And Kara has friends at Seymour-Johnson, Mann; so be warned. She will be well prepared.

Good, I hope she does prepare and work on tactics. I like a challenge. She better remember who she's up against though. I've got many, many hours in my F-22, I know exactly what it can do and what I can do. I can hand any of my guys their backsides. The star on my shoulder does not mean I've lost anything at the controls. I'm analyzing her actions, too. And you better believe that I know people at Mountain Home......

Matt Wiser said: Sarah's team still drives the Dallaras, and her team's record proves that they still work very well. Andretti Racing, Dale Coyne Racing, Team Australia, and A.J. Foyt Motorsports have also had plenty of success with the Dallara. Btw, did you hear that Sarah hired her old team owner, Derrick Walker, to help run the shop and be their chief race strategist? I imagine it'll take some getting used to: Sarah giving Derrick orders instead of the other way around.

Derrick's Indycar team went belly-up because those fools Takagi and Gugelmin brought sponsors who didn't pay up. He's still got a championship-contender Indy Lights team, too. I do get the feeling that Derrick and Sarah's operations will end up being one entity when Derrick hangs it up, but he's not done in Indycars just yet. Walker and Sarah, however, is a good pairing - neither one is arrogant, and both supremely respect the abilities of the other. Tony Cotman is taking the straegist for Legge's car - they'll have the best strategy around, no two ways about that. (Though the PacWest boys are getting better all the time in that regard, and Rahal seems to do good at that as well......)

They have had success, but Lola still owns the roost and Panoz, Swift and Riley and Scott are far ahead now of where they were a couple years ago. Foyt only took the Dallara because they were ex-Ganassi units and cheap - Foyt's squad in decent, but not great. BTW, Vasser announced his new squad, too. Him and Alex Zanardi driving, no surprises there, but I WAS a bit surprised to hear that they have cash for a third car. Paul Tracy is in it - I'd guess the Thrill from West Hill shook a few trees and got some money for him and Jimmy. The team's Australian benefactor looks like Santa Claus, I swear, but his money's green.

Matt Wiser

Lisa told me something like that. Kara's made no secret of her wish to take down a one-star in a Raptor, and she'll find a way. Kara's embarassed a couple other Raptor drivers at Nellis, and they don't like her at all. One of 'em is a 16-kill ace in F-15s, in 1988-89, and getting "killed" by an F-15E driver is a sober object lesson in not getting overconfident. All of her F-22 "kills" have been against guys who were overconfidient. In combat, that kind of attitude can get one popped into the bag. This week, though, she's giving lessons to the Singapore AF guys who are here: Mountain Home has a squadron of F-15SGs that the Singapore AF has here for training, and a few of 'em were pretty cocky from their A-4 days. They will find out the F-15 is a whole different beast from the A-4.

Ballard generally finds what he looks for; but his first postwar expedition in '95 was for the Bismarck, not any WW III wrecks. The Germans hired him to find the ship in that case. He's been on retainer for the Navy in going for WW III wrecks, along with his work for National Geographic.

Anyone see this on CNN yesterday? They went back to Missouri and found that armor collector who loaned his vehicles to the Army during that ComBloc Summer '86 offensive-the one that got within artillery range of St. Louis, but no further. He's got a lot more in his inventory than what he had back then, and most of the vehicles are restored to running order. Both Panthers (with T-62 and T-55 kills) sit next to an M-48A5 (also with tank kills-it was a USAR vehicle), while a Missouri Guard M-60 is parked next to a T-72 and an early model M-1. He's also got numerous APCs and lots of uniforms, web gear, other equipment, and small arms on display. And a range out back, where for a fee, one can use AKs, RPKs, heavy machine guns, etc. One of the Panthers is back in its WW II livery, while the other has the improvised paint job the Army slapped on back in '86. Might be worth a look-see going to or from Indy next year.

trekchu

My kids are bugging me about that very museum for months now. I wish I could come with my own early-model M1 to his museum, complete with kill rings on the barrel.

Matt Wiser

That museum's gotten to be a pretty decent tourist attraction along I-44. Right off the Interstate is a T-72 and an M-60, parked so they're facing each other. This guy's got enough armor of various types that he could equip his own armored brigade. As for the WW II stuff that has armor kills? He did follow the German tradition of painting kill rings-they're in red on all the armor he donated to the Army. The CNN story had him quoting a captured Soviet officer who was dumbfounded that the tank that knocked out his T-62 (from a Cat III Motor-Rifle Division) was a Panther, and a Cuban who wouldn't believe an old M-48 in the hands of a bunch of reservists killed his T-72.

Speaking of armor, anyone here ride on the M-551 Sheridans, either with the 82nd Airborne or with one of the other units the Army issued Sheridans to? There's a Sheridan in front of the NG Armory in Mountain Home (F Troop, 2nd Squadron, 116th ACR) and one guy told me that a Sheridan was a vehicle that you either loved or despised. They were up in the Pacific NW, and had a lot of windy mountain roads along the Canadian-U.S. border, so they were handy. Trouble was, that thin aluminum armor couldn't take even heavy machine-gun fire, let alone something like an RPG. And heaven help you if you ran into heavy armor. They got Sheridans straight out of depot storage in California, and went up to the border. Stayed with Sheridans until some Bradleys came off the assembly line and got sent their way, and they were glad to get the even the IP M-1 (with most of the -A1's features, except it still had the 105 instead of the 120). And most troopers were glad to get rid of the Sheridans, but some stayed until the end.

It's official: NF4512 is now properly FAA certified. Which means I can take my very own double-ugly up anytime I please. We had a check flight today, and the inspector wrote out the paperwork on the ramp at SLC International right then and there. Just as long as I go by the radar restrictions in controlled airspace, everything's OK. She gets her public unveiling at Hill in two weeks, but first, the Salt Lake Community College kids get to give her a brand-new paint job.

Ballard found the Victor, and no news on any radiation leakage, but they did take samples from the bottom around the wreck, and water samples as well. She's just off the continental shelf in 1300 feet of water. He's still got some exploration time, and the CNN story said he'll be looking for various wartime wrecks in the two weeks he's got left.

TheMann

I got a question from a friend, for any of the armor guys here.

A friend of mine sent me a picture of him and his father helping defend Fort Collins, Colorado, during the siege of Denver. His pictures of some of the weapons included what I think are M103 tanks. Can anybody confirm or deny this? If its true, it's rather remarkable that the giant slug was even considered for the job......

trekchu

Ugh. Sheridans. We had some in my Company that had served on them during their stint in 'Nam, and they hated these things. Never myself though.

EDIT: As for the M103s, I heard that too, from a replacement who had family in Denver. Once the siege was over he got compassionate leave and tracked down his folks, and he said that he saw them.

Matt Wiser

M-103s? Three possible sources: the Sierra Army Depot near Susanville in California, the Barstow Marine Corps Supply Center, also in California, and Yuma Proving Ground in Arizona. Easy enough to get them on a train and sent to the Denver area for the former two. Given as their 120-mm ammo had been in storage for many years, they probably had as many duds as ones go off.

I did a little digging online and found out what happened to Yuma Proving Ground's M-103s; seems they got issued to a unit of USAR guys made up of ex-armor people from Phoenix and Tuscon, and they were sent to New Mexico to hold the line on the Rio Grande. As the war went on, their ammo improved (either Rock Island Arsenal or the Hawthorne Army Ammunition Plant in Nevada) and those 120s tore apart anything they hit. They were even issued a beehive round for antipersonnel work (1,500 nails in each round), along with a Sabot round, HEAT, and WP. When 40th ID arrived from California, the 85th Tank Battalion (Provisional) was attached to 40th ID, and they fought in New Mexico and later on, in El Paso, for the rest of the war. The 85th never did get any modern armor, so they fought with their M-103s all the way to the end. The battalion also had a scout platoon, and guess what the scouts were equipped with? Yep, Sheridans and M-113 ACAVs. That 120-mm on the 103 may have been old, but it got the job done.

Here's a pic of one of the survivors at YPG (OOC: this was really photographed at Yuma Proving Ground sometime in the 1990s):


TheMann

So, some M103s made it the entire war? I bet my buddy will want to heat that. Thanks a million, Matt and Trekchu.

Anyways, I flew in an exercise today with my F-22 and F-16 guys. Four F-22s against 16 F-16s, which are guarding A-10s that are trying to fly over and attack the base. I got three F-16s for sure, and probably at least two more. And my F-16 fliers know their business. I think whatever Major Ray can toss at me, I'm ready for.

Matt Wiser

Depending on if it's a Reserve weekend or not, you mean, but if it is when you show up, Kelly Ann Ray won't mind coming to the party. I may have to pull some strings to get an invite for 419, but I do know a few people at Nellis...Lt. Col. Ray got her Olds 442 convertible yesterday, and drove all the way back from Vegas to Pocatello-without getting a ticket, she said. Be glad Nevada and Utah both have 75 MPH limits on their rural interstates...though she did 80-85 on occasion. Going thru the Virgin River Canyon on I-15 in that little stretch of Arizona was a little tricky: lot of truck traffic in there, she said, but she did get a lot of appreciative honks from truckers.

Those M-103 tankers must've been a tough bunch, whether it was on the Rio Grande or in the Denver Perimeter. To go all the way to the end in those beasts....though I do pity the guys in the Sheridans, though..not too many of them made it. Still, the Rio Grande was a sideshow until PRAIRIE FIRE-but that didn't mean much to those fighting on both sides: the soldiers fought just as hard and the losers were just as dead as those killed in the big battles.

Sheriff Lori Sheppard called today: seems some rancher checking on his stock found the wreckage of an F-4 on his land, scattered across a ravine. I asked her to check to see if what the serial number on the tail was, and it came back as 73-0515. That's the one I was shot down in. Fort Carson EOD had to be called, as there was at least one unexploded AIM-7 and some 20-mm ammo as well that hadn't cooked off. 512 gave me a good ride to the end once I got back to the squadron, but 515 was my first bird once I reported to the 335th out of the F-4 RTU....The county historical society wants to put a few pieces on display, once the EOD guys wrap up their work.

TheMann

So, you found your old bird, huh? Congrats. Hopefully you can get a piece or two of it as a "remember me by". Lt. Col Ray got her 4-4-2 and managed to get back home without a speeding ticket? That's a surprise. I woulda expected her to set off every cop radar along the route. Well, I know I would have.

JN1

M103s, eh? I've always thought it was a very impressive tank.
Our equivalent was the FV 214 Conqueror heavy tank, which was armed with the same 120mm gun as the M103. Sadly most ended up as hard targets on firing ranges and only six gun tanks survive (1 at the Bovington Tank Museum, 1 each at IWM Duxford, Musee des Blindes in Saumur, the Royal Museum of Army in Brussles, Kubinka of all places and the Littlefield Collection).
As memory serves only the Bovington and Duxford tanks are runners, though I wonder if the Littlefield tank saw any service in WW3?

I do know that some of the more modern exhibits at Bovington, such as the Conqueror, an M103A2 (ironically enough), the FV4211 Experimental Chieftain (which had an aluminium hull and Chobham armour), an M60A1, and AMX-30, an old Centurion and a Swedish S-Tank, amongst other things were all pressed into service and used to guard various installations near the museum.
The museum keeps most of its exhibits (including the oldest WW1 era tanks) in running condition and in most cases their armament is still operational.
The museum is well worth a visit (OCC: I've been their once and it is fantastic).

FV 214 Conqueror



FV4211 Experimental Chieftain.

Btw anybody hear about the German Army unit based in the UK? Until the mid '90s the Heer used to have a unit based in Dorset which had about 40 Leo1s and latterly Leo2s. They were there to take advantage of the Lulworth Gunnery Range and a bit like the Luftwaffe training unit in the US they took a vote and decided that they were temporarily 'British' until sanity once again prevailed in West Germany.
They proudly crossed over the Channel as part of the Army Group we sent to help liberate Eastern Europe when NATO was re-founded.

DD951

Anyone know how bad were losses among the M-103s- those things look like huge targets, and although AFVs aren't my speciality, the armor doesn't look like that much more than an M-60 had from the articles on it I've found online?

On a slightly different topic, Matt, now that Col. Ray has her 4-4-2 back home, any more details about the car that you can provide?

Matt Wiser

Not sure about their losses as a whole, but the 85th managed to "scrounge" (read: steal) some reactive armor and install it on their vehicles. They were mainly used defensively, to keep the ComBloc (mainly Cat II and III Soviets and Cubans) on the east side of the Rio Grande. Nobody crossed the river in their sector and lived to get back to the other side if they had anything to say about it.

Colonel Ray's going to have the car painted: it was tan when she got it, but she'll have it repainted red. Being a deputy sheriff in civilian life, she ought to know better. The car is not a stick shift, but automatic. (the previous owner had it converted from stick to auto) The car's a 1970 model, and she'll have one other modification if it can be done: she wants a modern radio/CD/tape player installed.

The tail of 515 is pretty much intact, and both the AF Academy and the Wings over the Rockies Air Museum in Denver want it now. Lori's going to send me some pieces by FedEx, while one of the engines, an ejection seat found about a half-mile away, and a few other pieces go to the local museum in Walsenberg. Lori took the Sheriff's office helo up on a hunch to have a look around, and found an unexploded SA-6 in a ravine about a mile away from the crash site. I do remember seeing two missiles come up, one missed, but the second one didn't. This might be the one.

Osprey's got another WW III book coming out: USAF F-15A/C Units of World War 3. Nice to see the Albino Eagles getting their story told, but they also need to do one on the F-15E community, as McAir did produce at Long Beach enough for two wings' worth in 1986-89 (450th TFW-now at Isley AFB, Saipan, and the 357th TFW-the old "Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney" of 8th AF fame back in WW II-now at Randolph AFB near San Antonio).

JN1

Matt,
I've seen that Osprey are also planning to release Tornado F.2/F.3 Squadrons of World War Three and RAF and Fleet Air Arm Aces of World War Three in the New Year, plus there is to be an edition of the Campaign series covering the Battle of the Baltic Exits. I'm hoping they'll also tackle the Buccaneer, Harrier and Jaguar soon and maybe do something on the ground defence of the UK, perhaps in the Elite, or Men at Arms series.
Btw the improvised defences of Denver have been covered in the Fortress series.

Any news on the Littlefield Conqueror? It would have been able to use the same ammo as the M103s and IIRC it would have better armour; spare parts might have been a problem though.

DD951

Well, the add-on reactive armor certainly would have helped things, as were the type of Soviet/Cuban units they faced.

I'd imagine that finding the wreckage of your old airplane would be an interesting experience. Any idea on what sorts of pieces Sheriff Sheppard's going to be sending you?

As for the 4-4-2, they do look nice in red, even if that color's a cop magnet, although can't say that I'm too happy with the previous owner. As for putting a modern radio/tape/cd player in it, there's a couple ways to do it without cutting up the dash. There's a couple companies, Custom Autosound & Ken Harrison Enterprises that make AM/FM tape players that fit in the original radio opening and look kind of retro, and can be set up to control a CD players. If Col. Ray wants to leave the original radio in place, there's another outfit, Secret Audio, which makes a radio tuner with an optional CD changer that can be put in whatever inconspicious place suitable, and is controlled by a remote control panel mounted on a bracket, which can be rigged to fold up under the dash if desired; there's also a handheld remote control unit for it. All of these things can be ordered direct from the manufacturer, or through most of the major reproduction parts suppliers. Unfortunately, GM A-bodies aren't set up in ways that allow a bolt-in installation of a standard modern CD/stero unit in the dash without cutting stuff (although I have seen people selling replacement dash bezels set up for modern radios for Mustangs & 68-82 Corvettes.)

[lordroel]

From page 71

Matt Wiser

There was a Soviet general who was captured-he may have been Chuikov's grandson-who compared Denver to Stalingrad. He compared the ComBloc besiegers to the Sixth Army, and the defenders to the old 62nd Army. Granted, the defenders ranged from regular Army, CO NG and USAR, Marine reservists unable to join their units, and armed civilians who got more heavily armed as they picked up abandoned weapons off the battlefield. But they got the job done. Not having read the Osprey book on the siege, I do hope the author paid attention to the C-130 and C-123 crews who flew in supplies, evac'd wounded and civilians, and took 50% casualties in the process, and the Army helo crews (mainly CH-47s) who did the same. While the siege was lifted somewhat after the failure of the '86 Summer Offensive, it wasn't completely broken until PRAIRIE FIRE.

Well, I got the package from Lori Sheppard today; it consisted of the pilot's control stick, some parts from the rear fuselage and the right wing, and a tire, along with the right main landing gear. Not sure how I'll display this stuff, though. And the AF Academy has claimed the tail, though the Denver museum has already said "See you in court." Another sign of normalcy, don't you think? Personally, I think the AF Academy should get it, but looks like the lawyers will be involved. My WSO at the time was an Academy grad, and that's the basis of their claim. The EOD folks had to blow up the unexploded SA-6, though-the local museum in Walsenberg has the fragments, Lori said.

Weren't the Denver defenders using M-103s more as pillboxes than as tanks? There were some CO NG M-60s inside the perimeter, so they did have some mobile armor. I flew over Denver numerous times in '86 after returning to the squadron, and you could see the M-60s on the Pave Spike.

zakueins

For all of you space fans, Ishtar-5 made it to orbit safe and sound. We put her through her paces, and the next Freedom/Moon mission, she'll be the tug to go there and back.

Always wonderful to see a launch, the Jupiter's are almost as good as watching the Shuttle go up. I can confirm that they're doing a whole new system for manned launches in the next ten to fifteen. Basically the Shuttle as it should have been-huge winged booster to get the shuttle proper into the air and up high before firing it off. They're talking about twenty-five ton cargo capacity-or about thirty people, and that will make a lot of the space launches a lot better. Even the stretched Orion-IIs can only carry eight and that's a big damper on getting stuff done in orbit.

And, yep, they're going to expand the Moonbase to about 110 permanent population by 2015. That'll cover the LUNOX, observatory, and various research programs without a hitch.

BigWillyG

Anybody here see the Irish Brigade in action? I just got back from an historical conference and started talking to Dr. Henry McMahon who's in the same period of study as myself and I asked him how he lost his hand. Turns out he's a WWIII vet just like me. Told me he was a captain and lost it during the relief of the siege of Denver. Joined up when Dublin sent the brigade to help the US fight after the Soviets bombed Dublin and Cork a few times and used gas on the Belfast docks. That gasing apperently helped end the troubles more then anything else. Pictures of gassed children turned everyone agaisnt the Combloc on the Island, republic and North. He told me that the Provos broke up after that when it was revealed home much Combloc support they had. Lots of ex-Provos and ex-Protestant militants joined either the brigade or the British army to fight the Sovs.
I'd never paid much attention to the land war or smaller political events during the war and found our conversation interesting. Anybody ever seethe Irish troops or fight alongside them? Closest I got was seeing Irish involvement was LE Deirdre coming into Savannah with a convoy in '84.

Angel Heart

Since I was born in 1987 the only thing I know from the war are stories of my dad. He, grandpa, my uncles and many others were drafted to the Yugoslav People's Army fighting the Soviets. Almost all of them were KIA and my dad lost his left eye and spent three years in a prison camp somewhere at the ass of Siberia.

BigWillyG

Angel Heart said: ↑
Since I was born in 1987 the only thing I know from the war are stories of my dad. He, grandpa, my uncles and many others were drafted to the Yugoslav People's Army fighting the Soviets. Almost all of them were KIA and my dad lost his left eye and spent three years in a prison camp somewhere at the ass of Siberia.
I've heard horror stories about the war in the Balkans. Hows the place now? I went on a dig in the Balkans 5 years back and the political situation was a tad confused to say the least.

Matt Wiser

Didn't the Irish Brigade wind up along the Mississippi? ISTR a news article datelined "somewhere along the Mississippi River" showing the Irish brigade arriving at the front lines. It was the Arizona Republic running the story, after I returned to the squadron from a thirty-day leave following the E&E. Those guys were mainly light infantry, but a battalion's worth of loaned M-48A5s (with the 105-mm gun) gave them some integral armor. Given their opposition (Cat II or III Soviets), it was enough.

Did anyone catch Larry King Live last night? Colonel Bella gave his first prime-time interview, and it was interesting. Among other things, he mentioned that General Bratchenko was considering offering a reward for the Wolverines' capture, but given the amount of popular support they had, it was a nonstarter, and that Bratchenko personally "interrogated" Daryl, the Mayor's son who led that VDV company to the Wolverines' hideout (and was ambushed). Colonel Bella also said that while he felt that reprisals against civilians were a good idea at first, their lack of impact led him to believe such things were counterproductive. Bratchenko, though, was enthuasistic. Larry asked him about how he felt, now that the Cuban Communist regime is a thing of the past, about possibly returning home, even if only for a visit; and his response was that "While I would like to see Cuba again as it rebuilds, my home is in the U.S. now, but I would visit after Cuba has its first free and fair election." And when he was asked about his feelings towards socialism, he echoed his previous interview, believing that "Socialism was a fine theory that should have worked, but given the millions of corpses socialism created, it is worse in practice than in theory."

Bowden's book on the female helo pilots, Chopper Girls: Female Helicopter Pilots in World War III, hits the bookstores a couple weeks before Christmas: time for me to order a copy. The Cobra Chicks are the most famous example, but there's plenty of others from all of the services.

LeX

I was a Hind pilot, a Kapitan. My gunner was pretty good, but one day a lucky shot put our gun out of action. We had run out of rockets, and as we turned to fly back to base, a MANPAD made a wreck of our "flying tank." The locals were fucking pissed. I didn't blame them, but we were pretty pissed ourselves. At least I was. My buddy only made it a few minutes at best after we crashed; he was wounded and trapped in the cockpit. At least the locals weren't able to drag him out and feed him to the dogs. I took my AK-74U and ran. Two days, sixity kilometers, and eight Americans later I ran out of ammo. Some of those damned "indiginous personnel" were waiting for me beyond a ridge. I decided to charge them with my last grenade, but slipped just as I was getting to the top. the depinned nade fell out of my hand as I rolled down the ridge; thank god it was faster than me. The explosion must've convinced the Americans I was done, and that's what saved me.

OOC: Are we only allowed to be americans?
"He has been assigned to his service by the law; to doubt his worthiness would be to doubt the law."

JN1

OOC: Are we only allowed to be americans?
OOC: I think we can be what we like. I'm a Brit.

Lots of ex-Provos and ex-Protestant militants joined either the brigade or the British army to fight the Sovs.
IC: They didn't find a lot of friends initially, there were too many British soldiers who had served in the 'Emerald Toilet' (as they called it) for that. Never served alongside any ex-paramilitaries myself, but I do on occasion remember serving with troops from the Royal Irish Rangers and the North Irish Horse; boy could those guys put the drink away when they were off duty!

Btw my regular contact has told me that we've started operations against that Chinese warlord that caused trouble in Hong Kong. The RAF are currently bombing his forces and H.Q. Land operations are also underway, but OPSEC precludes me from saying any more.
Should be on the news tomorrow though.

BigWillyG

IC: They didn't find a lot of friends initially, there were too many British soldiers who had served in the 'Emerald Toilet' (as they called it) for that. Never served alongside any ex-paramilitaries myself, but I do on occasion remember serving with troops from the Royal Irish Rangers and the North Irish Horse; boy could those guys put the drink away when they were off duty!

The fellow I talked with said somthing similar. He also said most of the Provos went over the border to join the brigade or other Eire forces rather then serve the crown. They wanted to fight the Sovs but they didn't want to fight for the British.

BigWillyG

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Didn't the Irish Brigade wind up along the Mississippi? ISTR a news article datelined "somewhere along the Mississippi River" showing the Irish brigade arriving at the front lines. It was the Arizona Republic running the story, after I returned to the squadron from a thirty-day leave following the E&E. Those guys were mainly light infantry, but a battalion's worth of loaned M-48A5s (with the 105-mm gun) gave them some integral armor. Given their opposition (Cat II or III Soviets), it was enough.

I believe so. The good Dr. talked about being in the Mississipi area early on. He was commander some light infantry scouts. The most armor he ever got to use was old Saladin armored cars. Apparently they got sent to help relieve Denver after cutting their teeth in Miss. Higher command also wanted a good infantry force for the street fighting in the Denver suburbs. That might have been a mistake according to the Dr. , going from Cat II and III to Cat I was a nasty shock. They were a good force but not trained or equiped for the fighting they were put into there. Lots of KIA and WIA there.

JN1

BigWillyG said: ↑
IC: They didn't find a lot of friends initially, there were too many British soldiers who had served in the 'Emerald Toilet' (as they called it) for that. Never served alongside any ex-paramilitaries myself, but I do on occasion remember serving with troops from the Royal Irish Rangers and the North Irish Horse; boy could those guys put the drink away when they were off duty!

The fellow I talked with said somthing similar. He also said most of the Provos went over the border to join the brigade or other Eire forces rather then serve the crown. They wanted to fight the Sovs but they didn't want to fight for the British.
I doubt they found a lot of friends in the defence force either. It wasn't just members of the British Army that were murdered by the IRA, but also the Irish Army and the Garda.
A lot of my former comrades won't have shed any tears for provos who were killed in the relief of Denver. Must have been a bit of a shock for them too, fighting a stand-up battle rather than, say, waiting until the Soviet troops were off duty and shooting them in the back instead.

A lot of them may have died fighting the Soviets, but that doesn't stop them being murderous scum, IMVHO anyway. If few of them came back after the war then the Soviets did the world a favour.

The Saladin was a good armoured vehicle, the 76mm gun is capable of taking out most Soviet armoured vehicles and will even worry a lot of their MBTs. We used them on internal security duties along with Saracen.

Matt Wiser

I noticed the Brits are pounding said warlord near Canton (it made CNN and Fox News); This might be a good chance to see if the British-raised Chinese forces do well in combat. If the "Royal Canton Rifles" have any armor, it's probably either excess Cheftains or Centurions, unless there's any ex-PLA Type-59s that have been modernized.

I talked to an ALO who was at Denver (he got there by Parachute in Summer of '86, halfway thru the siege), and he said the Irishmen were tenacious fighters. Rumor was that some were ex-IRA, but most of 'em were guys who wanted to stick it to the Russians, one way or another. One thing that came in handy during the siege was extensive use of Armored Cars (you know, Brink's or other armored car companies you see hauling cash to and from banks) as improvised APCs. Some Army engineers welded on improvised RPG screens, added steel plate across from the fuel tank, and otherwise made them a little more survivable. Not much good against a 115-mm or 125-mm tank round, but if you ran into a BMP or infantry with RPGs and/or ATGMs, you still had a chance.

That Hind Pilot posting earlier was lucky; if he'd been caught by the resistance people he'd been chasing from the air, based on many accounts of guerillas, he would've been summarily executed. When I did my E&E with the guerillas in Southern Colorado, I remember one time, just one, where a prisoner was brought into camp for interrogation, and after they finished, he was shot, then and there. There were several women in the group who took personal revenge on Russians and Cubans (they made no distinctions) before killing them, and Lori Sheppard simply had a habit of having those under her command not take prisoners at all. When the SF made contact with guerilla bands and provided SF teams, weapons, ammo, etc., it took a long time before the resistance people could be convinced to bring in a prisoner for the Green Berets to have a chat with.

Here's some artwork lifted online that must've been in the Osprey F-4 book mentioned earlier: They got it right when the artist did 73-512. (OOC: Thanks to John "Maverick" Lacey over on the what-if modelers board)


sloreck

That Hind pilot had nothing to complain about. Even with regular forces, certain groups of combatants have always had a hard time surrendering. As far back as the U.S. Civil War snipers were almost never allowed to surrender, which has continued to be a "tradition". Likewise machine gunners esp during WW1 but also WW2 did not have too much luck surrendering. Shooting up resistance folks with a Hind and then expecting mercy, not going to happen.

My dad was in B-29's during WW2 & he knew what would happen to him if he bailed out over Japan.

DD951

Ran into a few Irish soldiers myself- a couple months before the final attack on Vancouver, Turner Joy had to help extract a platoon from the Gloucestershire Regiment who got cut off while on a recon patrol & needed a ride out of there before things got too sticky for them. Anyways, I was rather surprised to hear about a half-dozen of them speaking with Irish accents, and I was a bit curious as to why there'd be Irishmen in an English regiment of the British Army, but I suppose that little tidbit about how Ireland ended up in the war would explain things. (Don't have any idea what part of Ireland they were from, but I don't suppose they were ex-IRA militants if they joined the British Army.)

I concur that Hind pilot was lucky to have escaped- a lot of people, not just the guerillas, weren't known for taking a lot of prisoners, especially in areas where a lot of atrocities had become known to our forces. I know that until the liberation of Vancouver, the vast majority of enemy prisoners taken in the BC campaign were people who got picked up at sea by the Navy, either fished out of the water or were on small craft taken as prizes, and even then, things got interesting on a few occasions, as on several occasions that we bagged a boatload of prisoners, usually Spetznaz, KGB/GRU special ops types, or auxiliaries, but also sometimes just normal sailors or soldiers, there were some in the crew who, shall we say, would have refused to accept a surrender, somehow missed the signal of it, or thought that there was an attempted escape or violent resistance going on, if left to their own devices.... Not surprising, considering some of their handiwork when it came to local civilians that we saw up there, but as an officer, had to watch out for stuff like that, although I suppose it'd be easier for such things to happen on land with a plausible justification under the rules of war than at sea.

I've been seeing similar reports about the fighting near Canton on MSNBC & BBC world service- nothing too specific, just some almost generic combat footage and reports that British forces are making 'steady progress'- OPSEC issues I suppose. Best of luck to them- anything that can stabilize that region is a good thing, and those warlords who are stirring up trouble instead of trying to rebuild something really do need to be smacked down.

Angel Heart

BigWillyG said: ↑
I've heard horror stories about the war in the Balkans. Hows the place now? I went on a dig in the Balkans 5 years back and the political situation was a tad confused to say the least.
After that it looked like if you were in a Mad Max movie due to the gruesome guerilla war. I think none could ever thought that the "People's War" would have made Afghanistan look like a walk in the park for the Soviets. Although Yugoslavia was pretty much destroyed the guerilla war was at least twice as painful to them than it was to us.

It was also the first and only time in her life when my mother used a gun. She even shot a Soviet officer who wanted to pillage our home.

My dad was rescued by a joint British-American taskforce and was sent to Germany. My mom and I reunited with him after we escaped trough Albania and Italy towards Germany. That the Soviets didn't make it to Baden-Württemberg was a miracle. :/
Last edited: Nov 23, 2009

Matt Wiser

III Corps in New Mexico had some incentives for taking prisoners: bring in an EPW and you got three days in the rear at a unit's rec center. If you brought in several, one got eligible for a week's R&R in either Vegas or SoCal. This was well before PRAIRIE FIRE, but once the offensive got going, taking prisoners was a lot easier. We even had a few "drop in" at Williams AFB (shot down attacking targets in the Phoenix area-especially the AH-64 factory in Mesa-did a lot of CAPs there when the F-15s were busy), and at Cannon later on. Of course, there were some times when our guys and gals just didn't bother taking prisoners-the ComBloc in Louisiana, for example. After Gennady Bratchenko used some VX gas on a few towns suspected of harboring resistance groups, they say word got around XVIII Airborne Corps, XV Corps, and II MEF pretty fast. Unless the intel people put in a specific request for prisoners, a lot of those units down there just didn't bother.

Looks like the Brits are taking care of matters in the Canton area; some of the footage CNN showed today had Chieftains ripping up some warlord Type-59s, along with some T-34s and IS-3s. A Challenger is probably overkill, given the local threat, so...There was also footage of some Brit AH-64s flying around the battlefield, and occasionally spraying some target with rockets and 30-mm cannon fire.

Hey 951: this aircraft was a participant in the Seattle business: it's a 466th TFS/419th TFW Thud. One of the six they still had flying when they went to the reopened Larson AFB (Grant County Airport) to make the F-4 transition when they got the call to send anything flying to the Seattle area. This bird is now on display at the Hill Aerospace Museum, though another's on display at the Museum of Flight at Boeing Field.



DD951

Matt Wiser said: ↑
III Corps in New Mexico had some incentives for taking prisoners: bring in an EPW and you got three days in the rear at a unit's rec center. If you brought in several, one got eligible for a week's R&R in either Vegas or SoCal. This was well before PRAIRIE FIRE, but once the offensive got going, taking prisoners was a lot easier. We even had a few "drop in" at Williams AFB (shot down attacking targets in the Phoenix area-especially the AH-64 factory in Mesa-did a lot of CAPs there when the F-15s were busy), and at Cannon later on. Of course, there were some times when our guys and gals just didn't bother taking prisoners-the ComBloc in Louisiana, for example. After Gennady Bratchenko used some VX gas on a few towns suspected of harboring resistance groups, they say word got around XVIII Airborne Corps, XV Corps, and II MEF pretty fast. Unless the intel people put in a specific request for prisoners, a lot of those units down there just didn't bother.

Looks like the Brits are taking care of matters in the Canton area; some of the footage CNN showed today had Chieftains ripping up some warlord Type-59s, along with some T-34s and IS-3s. A Challenger is probably overkill, given the local threat, so...There was also footage of some Brit AH-64s flying around the battlefield, and occasionally spraying some target with rockets and 30-mm cannon fire.

Hey 951: this aircraft was a participant in the Seattle business: it's a 466th TFS/419th TFW Thud. One of the six they still had flying when they went to the reopened Larson AFB (Grant County Airport) to make the F-4 transition when they got the call to send anything flying to the Seattle area. This bird is now on display at the Hill Aerospace Museum, though another's on display at the Museum of Flight at Boeing Field.
That aircraft looks familiar- I've seen the one at the Museum of Flight, although I don't have any pictures of it, nor do I recall the specific tail number though.

Almost afraid to ask what inspired III Corps to start offering time off the line & R&R as incentives to bring EPWs in, although I certainly understand why a lot of units were reluctant to take prisoners if the intel types weren't asking for some to play with.

Glad to see that the Brits are taking care of buisness over in Canton. Don't suppose you've heard anything about which warlord it was who made the mistake of stirring things up to the point where he needed to be smacked down?

Matt Wiser

Not sure which one specifically, but a lot of those warlords are either ex-PLA generals or former local or regional Communist Party bosses. It's a given that the ex-PLA types are more well-equipped and led than those led by the party hacks (some of whom have had "turnovers in leadership" more than once). And remember that some of these guys have air assets as well-the ROCAF, along with the RAF in Hong Kong and some of our carriers have had run-ins with MiGs or Fantans (the Nanchang A-5 attack aircraft) on numerous occasions. Baron 55's crew mentions some of the infighting inside warlord factions in their book; some of those "debates" got very heated indeed. As in extensive small-arms, mortar, machine-gun, and artillery fire.....talk about a frank and honest exchange of views!

I think the one in the Seattle Museum is 62-301. One of the retirees who flew Thuds in 419 remembers being there for the dedication ceremony, and he has time in the aircraft in his logbook. About the only thing he lamented was that when they got to Seattle in their six Ds and one F, all the MiGs had either been shot down or driven off, and friendly SAMs had made the Soviet Navy's helos extinct. You know, last mission of the Thud, and you'd like to have a MiG or helo kill to cap things off...Five missions each driver was what was in store that day.

A lot of units had to have incentives for bringing in EPWs: many GIs and Marines weren't too keen on taking prisoners, especially after word got around about the ComBloc's behind-the-lines conduct. Only when the intel types started complaining did the prisoner population start to grow, but the guerillas had a very hard time being convinced that taking prisoners was a good thing. It wasn't until the Battle of Wichita and subsequent to that, PRAIRIE FIRE, that the number of EPWs picked up substantially.

DD951

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Not sure which one specifically, but a lot of those warlords are either ex-PLA generals or former local or regional Communist Party bosses. It's a given that the ex-PLA types are more well-equipped and led than those led by the party hacks (some of whom have had "turnovers in leadership" more than once). And remember that some of these guys have air assets as well-the ROCAF, along with the RAF in Hong Kong and some of our carriers have had run-ins with MiGs or Fantans (the Nanchang A-5 attack aircraft) on numerous occasions. Baron 55's crew mentions some of the infighting inside warlord factions in their book; some of those "debates" got very heated indeed. As in extensive small-arms, mortar, machine-gun, and artillery fire.....talk about a frank and honest exchange of views!
I had more than a few run-ins with the pirates and air forces the warlords ran when Turner Joy spent several months after the war over in East Asia trying to help clean up the leftover messes. A seriously nasty bunch of power-seeking thugs with serious firepower; AF planes out of Clark, Navy planes from Okinawa, and ROCAF saved several of our ships, and even still, in their depridations, they did a real number on coastal merchant traffic, shot up a few destroyers and frigates, and even sank one of our frigates (O’Callahan, FF-1051) and a couple PGMs. I understand the Japanese, South Korean, ROC, & Filipino navies all took some hard knocks from these characters, until 7th Fleet gave them some well-deserved thrashings in 1991. You'd think they would have learned from that, but apparently not- if they're not trying to climb on top of each other, they're being a regional nuisance, like whoever it is that made the mistake of going after Canton. Just curious if that character was someone I'd remember from the bad old days, or one of the newer crops who've risen up through all the warlord clashes & 'politics.'

Matt Wiser

The various news nets haven't ID'd the warlord in question; only that he's ex-PLA. But yeah, a lot of 'em still have their hands on some serious firepower, and still need a good thrashing on occasion-witness what the Brits are doing now. I'm surprised they haven't requested the services of the 43rd BW on Guam: doing a Vietnam-style Arc Light on said warlord's forces might be enough to teach them a lesson. Given that the PLA used to have extensive warehouses full of tanks, artillery, APCs, and other equipment, it's no wonder the warlords are well equipped. Their numbers of ships and aircraft, though, are finite. Once a ship is sunk or a plane shot down, there's no replacing them. Even the Viets have had warlord trouble (artillery fire across the border, along with what Hanoi calls "acts of piracy" against Vietnamese shipping), and the NVA (old term, but the correct one) strongly responds.

Was that the correct ID for the plane at the Seattle Museum? The other one in Washington State on display is at McChord AFB's Museum, and she's 62-280. 280 has a pair of MiG-23 kills and an Su-25 kill to her credit (all scored by different pilots). I'll bet the Russians who fell victim to her thought "An F-105 against a MiG-23. This will be so easy." Wrong again, Ivan.

Hey Mann: Did you ever find out when your Red Flag visit is supposed to take place? If so, Kara's waiting. She spent the past week giving lessons to the Singapore AF F-15SG guys who now use Mountain Home for their transition training, and they're keeping a detachment of six birds here full-time as an RTU. Those guys live in a rough neighborhood: Indonesia is more a suggestion than reality nowadays, piracy's endemic, and you never know what Hanoi has in mind, even though they've pulled out of Cambodia. The Singaporean AF Colonel didn't think a mere female could whip him-Kara being both a squadron CO and a combat veteran notwithstanding. He too, thought wrong.

[lordroel]

From page 72

sloreck

I'm probably the only WWIII vet (regular forces) here to remember the old "Terry & the Pirates" comic strip. Sounds like the South China Sea has totally reverted to those days. Before the war I went to a reserve staff course where we talked about South China Sea maritime issues where the hot button items were safety of maritime traffic esp if China wanted to cut off Japanese oil, and exploitation of undersea resources like oil in the area. Shipping safety still a biggie, though pirates rather than state actors, and until that mess is cleared up NOBODY will risk a drilling rig in the S. China Sea.

Before I retired, was on a WESTPAC as ATF surgeon where the ARG drove up to some small island & sent half a battalion of Marines ashore to deal with a pirate nest. The senior legal officer for the MAGTF & I were friends, and he knew I was a history buff so he asked to be reminded about the old fashioned remedy. In the old days after being executed, pirates were gibbeted on execution dock, that is bodies were wrapped in chain and left to hang as a lesson. The very few we captured alive got a swift trial while some combat engineers rigged a gallows, and the bosuns locker contributed some chain. Some times the old ways are best, heard through the grapevine the story spread far & wide along that stretch of coast.

JN1

The fighting in China is all over now, the warlord has surrendered and agreed to pay reparations to the families of the Gurkhas his forces killed and wounded. He is also to pay for the ammunition and fuel we expended fighting him.
The RAF's Typhoons scored their first A2A kill during the short conflict; the enemy sent up some of those 'Fishbed' clones. Sadly for them a group of Typhoons on a bombing mission blasted them out of the sky with Meteor missiles before they even caught a glimpse of their enemy.

The surrender apparently came because we dropped a couple of airmobile infantry battalions on the warlord's H.Q, cutting off any chance of retreat into the countryside. Combined with a couple of columns of armour and Gurkhas approaching fighting on was not really an option.

DD951

Matt Wiser said: ↑
The various news nets haven't ID'd the warlord in question; only that he's ex-PLA. But yeah, a lot of 'em still have their hands on some serious firepower, and still need a good thrashing on occasion-witness what the Brits are doing now. I'm surprised they haven't requested the services of the 43rd BW on Guam: doing a Vietnam-style Arc Light on said warlord's forces might be enough to teach them a lesson. Given that the PLA used to have extensive warehouses full of tanks, artillery, APCs, and other equipment, it's no wonder the warlords are well equipped. Their numbers of ships and aircraft, though, are finite. Once a ship is sunk or a plane shot down, there's no replacing them. Even the Viets have had warlord trouble (artillery fire across the border, along with what Hanoi calls "acts of piracy" against Vietnamese shipping), and the NVA (old term, but the correct one) strongly responds.

Was that the correct ID for the plane at the Seattle Museum? The other one in Washington State on display is at McChord AFB's Museum, and she's 62-280. 280 has a pair of MiG-23 kills and an Su-25 kill to her credit (all scored by different pilots). I'll bet the Russians who fell victim to her thought "An F-105 against a MiG-23. This will be so easy." Wrong again, Ivan.

Hey Mann: Did you ever find out when your Red Flag visit is supposed to take place? If so, Kara's waiting. She spent the past week giving lessons to the Singapore AF F-15SG guys who now use Mountain Home for their transition training, and they're keeping a detachment of six birds here full-time as an RTU. Those guys live in a rough neighborhood: Indonesia is more a suggestion than reality nowadays, piracy's endemic, and you never know what Hanoi has in mind, even though they've pulled out of Cambodia. The Singaporean AF Colonel didn't think a mere female could whip him-Kara being both a squadron CO and a combat veteran notwithstanding. He too, thought wrong.
Did some checking, and yeah, 62-301 is the one in the Museum of Flight. Concur with the suggestion to have the 43rd Arc Light the warlord, although now that the warlord making a mess in Canton has surrendered, perhaps doing that to the next warlord or pirate nest to make a regional nuisance out of themselves would really send a message, although considering the persistence of those pests, I don't think they're going to get the hint, and I'm afraid that unless several nations get together and conduct a serious campaign to clear them out (hopefully not getting to the point of recolonizing parts of the region), the warlord/pirate problems are going to be a nuisance for some time to come.

Matt Wiser

So the Brits forced the guy to pay an indemnity? Maybe we'd better start thinking on how to force the Mexicans to pay up for hosting the ComBloc invasion force and supporting it. If you hear the Comedy Hour from Mexico City (some of the lefties are still broadcasting from there), you'd think they won. Someday, people, you'll find out different. And with LeMay AFB at La Paz, or Laredo AFB, it's only two hours by F-15E or F-111 to Mexico City....We should've grabbed the oil and gas fields south of the border when we had the chance-but since we couldn't, SAC made sure those oil and gas wells blew-big time. Not with nukes, mind you, but enough Mark-82s rained down from Buffs and B-1s to do the job.

Well, it was only a matter of time, but Lt. Col. Kelly Ann Ray got her first ticket while driving the 442. And guess what? It was her live-in boyfriend (also a Sheriff's Deputy) who pulled her over. 60 in a 45 zone...

Ballard's been busy in the Gulf, but the dive season is about to end. He found two destroyers (a Kashin and an Udaloy), several LSTs (Alligators) and an Ivan Rogov-class LPD. If this is the one the Mann went after, it's in 1140 feet of water, the bow is about a hundred feet from the stern, and the amidships section looks like it'd been thru a paper shredder. Lots of stuff on the bottom, from lAKs to tanks, and everything in between.

JN1

From what my mate in HK has been telling me the MoD may actually make a profit out of this operation. Seems that the warlord had a lot of loot that is going to be sold on the world market to pay for the reparations.
If he defaults at any time in the future then the RAF will probably deliver a 1,000lb reminder.

Matt Wiser

Selling off the warlord's loot, hmm? I doubt any of that stuff will wind up on EBay, but you never know. And using Meteors on J-7s....that's a target I'd use a Slammer on at most. Hell, the missile probably cost more than the target did! Unless the Typhoon drivers were told to use some in a combat trial.....(looks good in the sales brochures).

I don't think anyone wants to get really involved in the mess that's China anytime soon. The ROC has enough on their hands with the two cross-strait provinces, and the Brits dealing with the Hong Kong-Canton area (and helping with Macao while they're at it) is probably all that'll be. The occasional air strike or naval bombardment on a pirate nest, or hitting a warlord's HQ, is the least manpower-intensive way of doing business. Now, if there's a hostage situation out of a pirate incident, that's what Sloreck's friends in the Marines are for, along with the various SOF outfits. The 43rd BW and the 450th TFW, though, would be happy to give a hand in any such operation.

Here's a pic off the web: it's one of the Cobra Chicks' AH-1s during their workups at Fort Rucker (hence no IR suppressor on the exhaust). Little did they know the reputation they'd get at Wichita and then during PRAIRIE FIRE and everything that followed. And their off-duty antics were equally famous (or infamous, depending on one's POV)....


JN1

Matt,
It was a case of two Typhoons, both carrying a full load of LGBs, two ASRAAMs, four Meteors and their 27mm Mauser against half a dozen J-7s. The Tiffie pilots did not want to have to bother jettisoningtheir bombs and engage in close in combat so they used their Meteors instead.

Mainland China is indeed a hell of a mess. We've made it pretty clear to the various warlords that we don't really care what they do inside their own territory but will take an interest if they start to bother someone else, or worse do what that warlord near Canton did. In the later case our 'taking an interest' will involve a great deal of violence.

thepenguin

(OOC: I was born in 1987, but in this thread I am 22 when hostilities break out.)

IC: Just started my senior year at Youngstown State when Washington got nuked. I remember that day vividly. I had three classes in a row and i was dog-tired. All of a sudden, a bunch of the lefty contigent were congregating at The Rock and it seemed like they were celebrating. I asked one what was going on and he said "Washington got bombed. The imperialist, capitalist system is over. Now we'll have true equality under the Russians!" I almost put that guy in the emergency room at St. Elizabeth's (I was a criminal justice major back then. Wouldn't look good trying to explain an assault charge). I heard later that Kansas City got turned into a crater as well, and I had to do something. I drove to Youngstown-Warren Regional Airport and decided to enlist in the Air Force. After some accelerated training, I joined the then 910th Tactical Airlift Group as a flight engineer and was deployed to Chanute AFB in Illinois. We flew missions to Denver, and for the first couple months of the siege, everything was normal, but then we started getting shot at: SAMs, 23mm, 57mm, nasty stuff. Like flying on a bombing mission to Berlin in the last great war. I was one of the rare enlisted blue-suits to gain a commission the old fashioned way. We landed at Denver International and remember the scenes of people trying to get onto helicopters during the fall of Saigon? Well, multiply that a thousand fold and you'd get a sense of what was happening at DIA. We took civilians out, priority were kids and women, but a fair few of those flights were shot down. We were on one of those evacuation missions. We had lined the passenger compartment with bullet-proof vests and flak jackets to give some semblance of protection. Well, we took off and the shooting started. They were throwing up the big 57mm stuff at us. There was a big BOOM in the cockpit and the co-pilot suddenly didn't have a head anymore. The AC knew I was taking flying lessons and had me climb into the co-pilot's seat, mainly to monitor the instruments, but when we lost a couple engines, I had to help him maintain control of the Herk. We belly-landed at Chanute. We lost the co-pilot and the loadmaster, navigator, and a few of the civilians were wounded. Those days sucked. The ANG unit out of Mansfield (179th TAG) had two Herks left after that, one was barely operational and the other was being parted out to fix the other one. There were a few ground crewmen in that unit that took crash flying lessons and commissioned (there were only two pilots before they were reformed as a TFW). I transferred over to that unit because I finally figured out the beneifts of shooting back:p. We were flying A-7s to start out. We flew out of Malmstrom during the early days, mainly hitting convoys going to the Canadian front and doing CAS in Alberta. We were reassigned to St. Louis when we started the counter-offensive (the second one) and we switched to A-10s. I actually managed to shoot down a Su-24 at Witchita. I was just rolling out of a strafing run when I saw this plane coming right at me. The silhouette looked like a F-111, but as it got closer, I could tell the nose was a bit chunkier, and the canopy wasn't as "streamlined' as the Vark. I grabbed my pair of binoculars and could tell it was an Ivan Su-24. Went to guns and at about 1000 yards I let loose a stream of 30mm. There was nothing left after that. I also knocked out a Hind trying to get the jump on one of the Army rotors during that battle. We were on R&R after that, as they repaired McConnell. We rejoined when we started to push into Oklahoma and we were the guys that strafed that convoy just out of Corpus Christi. Nothing but civilian vehicles, but I saw in the beds of a couple pickup trucks some RPGs and AKs, and even a quad-50 setup (think the "technicals" in that Ridley Scott movie a few years ago). I was lead on that and flew past them at about 1000 feet. Broke left (the highway was on my left) and took out the lead vehicles with the Avenger. Three and Four swooped in from the rear and rampaged with 30mm and rockets. Me and my wingie cleaned up the rest. After the war, I transferred to a F-16 wing in Duluth (we were flying F-16A/Bs until '04 then we got CJ/DJs). As for the cars thing, I am extremely lucky that my wife is a hot-shot doctor, because I have a 2009 Maserati Gran Turismo S in Grigio Granito, a 1969 Ford Mustang Boss 429 in a custom Dark Cherry Metallic paint job and a 2007 Ford F250 King Ranch Crew Cab with the PowerStroke Diesel and 4x4. My eldest, Steven (he was conceived just before I deployed to Chanute, a "I don't know if I'll ever see you again, so let's make this memorable" type of thing) is a rookie cop with Duluth, my other son Kevin (born 1989) is the third-string QB at Ohio State (I forbade him from going to Michigan or Penn State. Once a Buckeye, always a Buckeye;)). Kiersten (born in 1992) is in her senior year at high school and signed a National Letter of Intent to play fastpitch softball at Cincinnati. Nadia (born 1994) is just into her freshman year in high school and she's on the soccer team. My wife, Bridie, is head of the Cardiology Department at St. Luke's Hospital. I'm wing XO of the 148th FW at Duluth.

Matt Wiser

You guys flying the Denver shuttle had a lot of guts: the average loss rate for the airlifters and the helos (Army and Marine) was 50%, according to the Air War College. Food, fuel (in rubber bladders), ammo, medicine, clothing, and spare parts in, civilians and wounded outbound. Given that Stapleton IAP, Buckley ANG Base, and Lowry AFB were all under fire, it's a miracle anyone got in, let alone out. The helos could go anywhere an LZ could be set up, and if I'm not mistaken, they used Mile High Stadium as a DZ for some drops when the artillery fire on the airports was too intense to let anyone land. I flew some CAS in mid '86 with the 335th to take out some of those guns, but it wasn't until PRAIRIE FIRE in the summer of '87 that the siege was completely lifted. By that time, the ComBloc line in Kansas and Missouri had been shattered, and the besiegers had to run south to Oklahoma and Texas or see their supply lines cut. A lot of 'em didn't make it....We nailed a lot of 'em on the roads leading south to Oklahoma and Eastern New Mexico-CBUs and Napalm mostly....and III Corps mopped up what was left. 23rd ID (M) got to U.S. 87/287 north of Amarillo and the ALOs said it was target-rich. But by the time we got there (eight birds up and away, with six more being turned around), the 23rd had a live-fire of their own.

Anyone care to bet that the Brits threatened to call in a B-52 strike on that warlord? The Brits may very well have asked for the 43rd's services, and if the Buffs had taken off and were en route, it'd be easy to recall them before giving the strike commit call. Though a dozen Buffs with 51 Mark-82s or M-117s (750-pounders) can be a very persuasive instrument.....The 43rd flies the J model Buff, btw.

Running into lefties on day one...if that doesn't take the cake. Anyone who cheered on the Russians from then on fully deserved whatever came to them. And for those who still do, well, whatever they get is richly deserved.

thepenguin

Matt Wiser said: ↑
You guys flying the Denver shuttle had a lot of guts: the average loss rate for the airlifters and the helos (Army and Marine) was 50%, according to the Air War College. Food, fuel (in rubber bladders), ammo, medicine, clothing, and spare parts in, civilians and wounded outbound. Given that Stapleton IAP, Buckley ANG Base, and Lowry AFB were all under fire, it's a miracle anyone got in, let alone out. The helos could go anywhere an LZ could be set up, and if I'm not mistaken, they used Mile High Stadium as a DZ for some drops when the artillery fire on the airports was too intense to let anyone land. I flew some CAS in mid '86 with the 335th to take out some of those guns, but it wasn't until PRAIRIE FIRE in the summer of '87 that the siege was completely lifted. By that time, the ComBloc line in Kansas and Missouri had been shattered, and the besiegers had to run south to Oklahoma and Texas or see their supply lines cut. A lot of 'em didn't make it....We nailed a lot of 'em on the roads leading south to Oklahoma and Eastern New Mexico-CBUs and Napalm mostly....and III Corps mopped up what was left. 23rd ID (M) got to U.S. 87/287 north of Amarillo and the ALOs said it was target-rich. But by the time we got there (eight birds up and away, with six more being turned around), the 23rd had a live-fire of their own.

Anyone care to bet that the Brits threatened to call in a B-52 strike on that warlord? The Brits may very well have asked for the 43rd's services, and if the Buffs had taken off and were en route, it'd be easy to recall them before giving the strike commit call. Though a dozen Buffs with 51 Mark-82s or M-117s (750-pounders) can be a very persuasive instrument.....The 43rd flies the J model Buff, btw.

Running into lefties on day one...if that doesn't take the cake. Anyone who cheered on the Russians from then on fully deserved whatever came to them. And for those who still do, well, whatever they get is richly deserved.
Oh yeah. The 910th lost half its planes in the first six months of the siege. The 179th had TWO pilots left, a navigator, and two loadmasters left after nine months of flying. And the "flyable" Herc was barely flyable. They didn't even dare to fly it 200 miles, let alone all the way to Denver. Thankfully at that point, they decided to reconstitute the 179th as a fighter wing, flying A-7s. Sending us to Montana was a godsend, since we were all new to fighters (well, attack, really), and we would have likely been a hindrance if they sent us into the fray right away. To that one guy whose brother owns a Asheville-class PGM, my cousin was able to get the USS Chehalis, get it through the Canal, down the St. Lawrence Seaway, and into Lake Erie. He's got it at Vermilion, and he fitted-get this-downriggers to it-it was the first thing he did. He's got the biggest yacht in the Central Basin. Also, what does that B-52J look like?
Last edited: Nov 29, 2009

JN1

B-52J:


Matt Wiser

Unless you move to Spokane and join the 141st BW (WA ANG) at Fairchild AFB.... They're the only ANG B-52 unit at present. (and no, they're not nuclear-certified) Though the AFRES has the 917th BW down at Barksdale with Buffs. (They want B-1s)

Guess where your A-7s came from? AMARC. The AF was running low on D-models, so they went to AMARC and got some Navy As and Bs out of storage. Hell, there's even the 138th TFG (OK ANG), who got run out of Tulsa and wound up in a roundabout way at Wendover in Utah, with exactly four A-7s, a C-12 (Beech King Air) and nine pilots left. A-4Fs via AMARC (ex-Navy) were issued to them, and they were the only AF Skyhawk unit during the war. They did a good job with the Scooter, too. They later got F-20s via the production line in Taiwan in time for LONG RIFLE, and they still fly Tigersharks to this day. They had two aces in F-20s, btw.
Last edited: Nov 29, 2009

TheMann

A guy who survived Denver. Lucky you. I was too busy bombing ComBloc ships in the Gulf at the time. You and I might have run across each other in St. Louis, thepenguin. Were you based at Scott AFB? If so, one of the guys in the F-18s there was yours truly.

Matt, you're almost right about the 141st being the only ANG bomb wing. The 154th Wing (HI ANG) has one squadron (224th Bomb Squadron) that also flies the B-52. Older H models, but apparently they AF wants to get as many B-52s up to J spec as possible, because they are less maintenance-intensive than the old eight-engine beasts. My dad is one of those working on the project now, and he's being sent out there to inspect their BUFFs to see if they need other repair work.

You all catch the news this morning? Apparently, some other countries are paying attention to their air forces more too. Canada has confirmed a bunch of US orders to rebuild their air command. Six squadrons of F-15s, four of F-18s, two of A-10s and three of F-111s, plus six E-3 Sentry AWACS birds. Rumor is that they only bought the F-111 because the Canadian Forces couldn't scrounge the cash for Buffs or Lancers, because they wanted something to able to hit Russia with. Though, with F-111s and their tanker fleet - CC-137C (Boeing KC-135R) CC-150 (Airbus A310) CC-175s (Airbus A330 MRTT) and CC-180 (Boeing KC-777) aircraft - they could probably hit Moscow. (Hell, they could hit Mexico City for us. Wouldn't that be a gas. )

OOC: I'm assuming after this that the Canadian Forces would be seriously rebuilding their arsenal and trying to do so on a shoestring, getting as much capability for as little money as possible.

thepenguin

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Unless you move to Spokane and join the 141st BW (WA ANG) at Fairchild AFB.... They're the only ANG B-52 unit at present. (and no, they're not nuclear-certified) Though the AFRES has the 917th BW down at Barksdale with Buffs. (They want B-1s)

Guess where your A-7s came from? AMARC. The AF was running low on D-models, so they went to AMARC and got some Navy As and Bs out of storage. Hell, there's even the 138th TFG (OK ANG), who got run out of Tulsa and wound up in a roudabout way at Wendover in Utah, with exactly four A-7s, a C-12 (Beech King Air) and nine pilots left. A-4Fs via AMARC (ex-Navy) were issued to them, and they were the only AF Skyhawk unit during the war. They did a good job with the Scooter, too. They later got F-20s via the production line in Taiwan in time for LONG RIFLE, and they still fly Tigersharks to this day. They had two aces in F-20s, btw.
Haha, I know. Naw, Bridie's content with making $500,000/yr(remember, I have a Maserati and a $50,000 truck) at St. Luke's and plus I'm right on the Lake Superior shoreline. And those A-7s! No wonder we wore 'em out quick! We had them from January '86 till sometime before Witchita and we had to replace them with A-10s. I would have loved to fly a Scooter though...

(OOC: Can we have a timeline of the battles ?)

thepenguin

TheMann said: ↑
A guy who survived Denver. Lucky you. I was too busy bombing ComBloc ships in the Gulf at the time. You and I might have run across each other in St. Louis, thepenguin. Were you based at Scott AFB? If so, one of the guys in the F-18s there was yours truly.

Matt, you're almost right about the 141st being the only ANG bomb wing. The 154th Wing (HI ANG) has one squadron (224th Bomb Squadron) that also flies the B-52. Older H models, but apparently they AF wants to get as many B-52s up to J spec as possible, because they are less maintenance-intensive than the old eight-engine beasts. My dad is one of those working on the project now, and he's being sent out there to inspect their BUFFs to see if they need other repair work.

You all catch the news this morning? Apparently, some other countries are paying attention to their air forces more too. Canada has confirmed a bunch of US orders to rebuild their air command. Six squadrons of F-15s, four of F-18s, two of A-10s and three of F-111s, plus six E-3 Sentry AWACS birds. Rumor is that they only bought the F-111 because the Canadian Forces couldn't scrounge the cash for Buffs or Lancers, because they wanted something to able to hit Russia with. Though, with F-111s and their tanker fleet - CC-137C (Boeing KC-135R) CC-150 (Airbus A310) CC-175s (Airbus A330 MRTT) and CC-180 (Boeing KC-777) aircraft - they could probably hit Moscow. (Hell, they could hit Mexico City for us. Wouldn't that be a gas. )

OOC: I'm assuming after this that the Canadian Forces would be seriously rebuilding their arsenal and trying to do so on a shoestring, getting as much capability for as little money as possible.
We were at St. Louis until Wichita, after that battle, we had 2 weeks R&R while McConnell was getting repaired. Then we flew out of McConnell until the ground forces moved into Texas. We were the 179th Tactical Fighter Wing. The wing call sign was "Buckeye." We painted mission markings on our aircraft, bombs for missions and Buckeye leaves for air-to-air kills (which happened more often than you think, we often took down helicopters as targets of opportunity). Tailcode was "OH." And what variant F-111 are we up to now?

Matt Wiser

Hey Mann: I take it you heard about Kelly Ann finally getting a ticket in her 442? And from her live-in boyfriend, no less? That was a shock, finding out who the deputy was that pulled her over.... She'll be in SoCal in December to do some publicity for the Showtime movie. But she does have Kara on her cell phone, as she does want to form the reception committee when you guys do show up for Red Flag. Oh, and btw, Sarah Fisher Racing just announced that they'll be a three-car team next year, with Lelaini Muntier joining Sarah and Katherine Legge. Sarah drives #67, Katherine has #68, and Lelaini gets #69. The team's Indy Lights entry goes to Ana Beatriz. I take it you heard Ballard found your Ivan Rogov? You might get in touch with him somehow, maybe you'll wind up on the National Geographic documentary about his expedition.

The HI ANG is a composite wing, like the 450th at Isley AFB, Saipan, or the wing at LeMay AFB in Baja. They have a squadron of Albino Eagles, one of KC-135s, and the Buffs.

The F-111s all got reworked to G standard, even the FB versions. They went to TAC once SAC got B-1s to replace wartime losses and to replace the FBs. GD had to rebuild the factory in Fort Worth from scratch, though all the jigs and tooling were in storage at AMARC.

BigWillyG

JN1 said: ↑
I doubt they found a lot of friends in the defence force either. It wasn't just members of the British Army that were murdered by the IRA, but also the Irish Army and the Garda.
A lot of my former comrades won't have shed any tears for provos who were killed in the relief of Denver. Must have been a bit of a shock for them too, fighting a stand-up battle rather than, say, waiting until the Soviet troops were off duty and shooting them in the back instead.

A lot of them may have died fighting the Soviets, but that doesn't stop them being murderous scum, IMVHO anyway. If few of them came back after the war then the Soviets did the world a favour.

The Saladin was a good armoured vehicle, the 76mm gun is capable of taking out most Soviet armoured vehicles and will even worry a lot of their MBTs. We used them on internal security duties along with Saracen.
Didn't know much about the Saladin. Thanks for the info. Your bit about the Irish views explains somthing the fellow I talked to said. He said somthing about only learning about Provos joining the brigade late in the war when he had to do paperwork for some KIA in his command and the letter to the mans family came back. Turns out the fellow had joined under a fake name. He didn't like Provos either and it was an unpleasant shock he said.

BigWillyG

"I talked to an ALO who was at Denver (he got there by Parachute in Summer of '86, halfway thru the siege), and he said the Irishmen were tenacious fighters. Rumor was that some were ex-IRA, but most of 'em were guys who wanted to stick it to the Russians, one way or another. One thing that came in handy during the siege was extensive use of Armored Cars (you know, Brink's or other armored car companies you see hauling cash to and from banks) as improvised APCs. Some Army engineers welded on improvised RPG screens, added steel plate across from the fuel tank, and otherwise made them a little more survivable. Not much good against a 115-mm or 125-mm tank round, but if you ran into a BMP or infantry with RPGs and/or ATGMs, you still had a chance."

The good Dr. who's telling me about his time in the Brigade said most of the Brigade were like him, normal Irishman with no connection to the Provos or any other terrorists or militants. He had one under his command well he was in the Brigade and he only found that out after the man was KIA.
As for the armored cars at Denver I'll try to talk to my freind into sending me a copy of a picture he has of his unit posing around a Brinks truck after they drove out the last Combloc from the city. I'll try to post it if I can.
Last edited: Nov 30, 2009

BigWillyG

sloreck said: ↑
That Hind pilot had nothing to complain about. Even with regular forces, certain groups of combatants have always had a hard time surrendering. As far back as the U.S. Civil War snipers were almost never allowed to surrender, which has continued to be a "tradition". Likewise machine gunners esp during WW1 but also WW2 did not have too much luck surrendering. Shooting up resistance folks with a Hind and then expecting mercy, not going to happen.

My dad was in B-29's during WW2 & he knew what would happen to him if he bailed out over Japan.
I agree with you there. My folks made it through the war in Binghamton NY. Place was and is a major area for BAE and Lockheed and got a nuke warhead that fissled early in the war. After that the Sovs used conventional cruise missiles and bombers to hit the city. A lot of those got shot down as the defenses got better. Any Syracuse ANG fighter pilots on here can probably tell you about getting kills over Bing. But I got a letter and a newspaper clipping midway through the war from my folks, a Backfire or Blinder was shot down by a Nike over the city and the pilot survived bailout. He then got lynched from a lamppost after coming down on Main Street. Picture of him hanging there was on the front page of the paper my folks sent.

[lordroel]

From page 73

Matt Wiser

If you think that was bad, the Mescalaro Apaches in Arizona were worse. The military recruited Apaches and other Indians as trackers and scouts, and in July '86, three Tu-22 Blinders tried an attack on the AH-64 plant at Mesa, near Phoenix. All three were shot down by F-15s from the 58th TFW at Luke, and only one aircrew member survived to be captured (by the Arizona Department of Public Safety-their Highway Patrol); the rest who bailed out were found by the Apaches on the Reservation east of Phoenix-and they died most painfully. Outside the Tribal HQ, they have wreckage of a Blinder on display, but they don't talk about the fate of the downed aircrews in public. Privately, though... But the Apaches, along with the South Africans and the AF CSPs, made sure ComBloc SOF never touched any base in the Southwest. Never. They were also used along the Mexican border in California, Arizona, and New Mexico west of the Rio Grande in the counter-SOF mission. One big advantage the Counter-SOF people had was that we knew our side of the border-the ComBloc (especially Russians and Cubans) didn't. They actually found Spetsnatz or Cuban SF dead in the desert from thirst-and a spring or well might only be a mile or two away.

We had an interesting Reserve weekend at Hill: the snob who runs the 388th TFW wanted to play with us in the 419th one last time before he leaves, and us "Weekend Warriors" were only too glad to oblige. I got him, Kelly Ann Ray got him, and a few others as well. I don't think I've ever seen anyone both glad and furious at the same time: he was glad to be leaving, and furious that a bunch of reservists humiliated him in front of his wing. But to be honest, almost everyone else in the 388th is glad this guy's leaving, too. The soon-to-be CO is an ROTC grad, and he's got a much better attitude towards reservists.

Most A-4s from AMARC went to Marine and Navy squadrons, though the Canadians, running out of CF-5As, got two squadrons' worth. One of the reactivated Essex-class carriers-Oriskany-had two A-4 squadrons in the reactivated CVW-16: VA-163 and VA-164. The Mann mentioned a while back about an EC-121 (the predecessor to the E-3 AWACS); well, there were two RC-121 ELINT birds at AMARC (ex-Navy) and they were dusted off (literally), then issued to VQ-1. They were glad that several others which weren't airworthy were available as parts sources. One crashed on landing when returning from a mission in 1987, but the survivor is now at NAS Point Mugu, near Ventura, CA, as a gate guard.

Nikephoros

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Most A-4s from AMARC went to Marine and Navy squadrons, though the Canadians, running out of CF-5As, got two squadrons' worth. One of the reactivated Essex-class carriers-Oriskany-had two A-4 squadrons in the reactivated CVW-16: VA-163 and VA-164. The Mann mentioned a while back about an EC-121 (the predecessor to the E-3 AWACS); well, there were two RC-121 ELINT birds at AMARC (ex-Navy) and they were dusted off (literally), then issued to VQ-1. They were glad that several others which weren't airworthy were available as parts sources. One crashed on landing when returning from a mission in 1987, but the survivor is now at NAS Point Mugu, near Ventura, CA, as a gate guard.
I served aboard one of the escorting Destroyers in that battle group. After my enlistment was up, I somehow got into the Army. Then the war ended. I never once fought in close combat against WARPACT.

thepenguin

Matt, you know if I could get one of the older A-10s under the jet warbird program? I know the type's still in service, but I want to try and snag one from AMARC. I got an A-7E now, want to add the 'Hog to the stable.

Matt Wiser

The Jet Warbird Program only applies to those types not in regular service. Since the A-10s are still active, and the remaining As are being reworked into the C model, it's not likely that any will be released. The only Hogs allowed for civilian use are museum pieces (usually those birds that were too badly shot up to fly again during the war). You'd have better luck getting an A-4. The 138th still flies one as a flying museum piece to airshows, btw. (they were at the Victory Day Show at Scott AFB)
The same applies to helos, in case any helo drivers out there are wondering.

trekchu

The thing is though that I have heard on good authority that Fairchild is working on a Replacement for the A-10. So if you wait a couple of years....

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Hey Mann: I take it you heard about Kelly Ann finally getting a ticket in her 442? And from her live-in boyfriend, no less? That was a shock, finding out who the deputy was that pulled her over....
In a situation like that, I wonder if she played the relationship card to get out of that ticket......I know if my wife was gonna give me a speeding ticket, I'd play that card. OK, perhaps I have no shame.

Matt Wiser said: ↑
She'll be in SoCal in December to do some publicity for the Showtime movie. But she does have Kara on her cell phone, as she does want to form the reception committee when you guys do show up for Red Flag.
I'm glad she does. I look forward to blowing her away. It's not that I have a problem with her or have no respect for the drivers of Strike Eagles, but I have every intention of proving to her, and my boys, that the star on my shoulder and 27 years of flying under my belt does NOT mean that "Grandpa" can't still kick their asses. My F-22 pilots have learned that, but the F-16 crews haven't learned it yet, and I fully intend to teach them.

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Oh, and btw, Sarah Fisher Racing just announced that they'll be a three-car team next year, with Lelaini Muntier joining Sarah and Katherine Legge. Sarah drives #67, Katherine has #68, and Lelaini gets #69. The team's Indy Lights entry goes to Ana Beatriz.
It won't be Beatriz, she's just got an offer from Forsythe to move into the big leagues, next to the Canucks (Tracy and Wickens) that Forsythe has got. I don't imagine she won't take it, and I don't think Sarah is gonna be mad about that, she's too good for that.

Matt Wiser said: ↑
I take it you heard Ballard found your Ivan Rogov? You might get in touch with him somehow, maybe you'll wind up on the National Geographic documentary about his expedition.
I was speaking with him just yesterday, and I told him of the raid on the amphib convoy and also about USS Alabama blasting a Sovremenny into itty bitty pieces and me having to dodge its bits and pieces.

National Geographic Magazine is doing an article on "The Second Battle of New Orleans", as it was the biggest battle in the Gulf of the War until the Siege of Houston. For us, it was three carriers (Oriskany, Lexington and Bennington), three battleships (Alabama, Massachusetts and North Carolina) and two heavy cruisers (St. Paul and Newport News) and many destroyers and frigates, as well as lots of land-based air power (mostly Marine F-4s and A-4s) and a British squadron (centered around HMS Ark Royal). For them, it was lots of land-based air power (Soviet, Libyan and Cuban MiGs and Sukhois), two Kiev-class aircraft cruisers (and their useless Yak-38 fighters), three Ivan Rogovs and lots of smaller vessels. They also had a trio of Tu-95s with smaller AShMs.

They told me all about what happened, and it was amazing. Apparently one of the Marine A-4s shot down one of the Tu-95s, and hit him with Zuni rockets. That guy got the Navy Cross. The Russians apparently had expected the carriers to come at 'em, but they didn't expect for our and the British SSNs and SSKs to annihalate the sub fleet they had, and for the battleships to get in on it. They only realized that they were involved when Alabama and Massachusetts opened up on 'em with the big 16" guns. What little made it to the Beach ran head on into Brigadier Andre Milliken and the Mississippi NG, which smashed them to bits. We lost several vessels to Soviet attacks, a bunch of fighters got shot down and Alabama took a torp in the screws which put her in the dock for 21 months while yard guys fixed the damage. Massachusetts was one of the big players at the end of the war, apparently. Two Presidential Unit Commendations, apprently - one for shelling the schloopy out of the Mexican oil fields and blowing up several of the Mexican oil platforms, the second for covering the landings of our guys in the Marianas.

Matt Wiser said: ↑
The F-111s all got reworked to G standard, even the FB versions. They went to TAC once SAC got B-1s to replace wartime losses and to replace the FBs. GD had to rebuild the factory in Fort Worth from scratch, though all the jigs and tooling were in storage at AMARC.
Don't forget the H version, which in development. My brother says that the F-111H is gonna be a bomber for usage off a carrier. I reminded him that the F-111B was an abysmal POS, but the Bro says that he's seen a model of the H model and heard that it is supposed to fly as well off a deck as the Tomcat. I'll believe that when I see it. Apparently its much better in terms of visibility and can easily fly on one engine, two major problems with the F-111B.

Matt Wiser

She didn't get out of the ticket. Her boyfriend told Kelly Ann that the other deputies were wondering when she'd get pulled over in that muscle car, and for how fast. $160 fine....Incidentally, Colonel Bella called her at Hill: he read her book, and Kelly Ann's story only reinforced his loathing of the regime he once served so loyally. Awfully decent of the man. Hmm; if Ana goes to Forsythe Racing, then Sarah will probably offer the IndyLights ride to either Erin Crocker (who switched from NASCAR to open-wheel) or Pipa Mann. My bet's on Erin.

Any replacement for the A-10 is several years down the road, so in the meantime, the A-10As still in the inventory get reworked into C models. As for an F-111H for the Navy: forget it; that's a wet dream from the boys at General Dynamics. Given the Navy's past experience with GD, they'll go to either McDonnell Douglas or Grummann for whatever replaces the F-14 and/or A-6. One thing about Naval Aviation, from what my cousin Jacqui says: they don't forgive or forget when manufacturers promise something and fail to deliver.

Speaking of A-10s, didn't the 23rd TFW (the Flying Tigers) have a pair of aces in the Warthog? ISTR an article in Air and Space a few years ago where the A-10 was mentioned, and these two guys were interviewed. All of their kills but one were helicopters, and that 30-mm gun could rip a helo apart like a buzz saw. One had 11 kills (one fixed-wing: an Su-25), the other had 9 (all helos). I'm pretty sure it was the 23rd, but it's been a while since I saw the magazine.

thepenguin

trekchu said: ↑
The thing is though that I have heard on good authority that Fairchild is working on a Replacement for the A-10. So if you wait a couple of years....
Well, then. I can wait. Anyways, here's a pic of my A-7E masquerading as the A-7A I flew when I first was a fighter pilot. 'OH' 68-0569; N2A7E. The kill markings on the nose did not come when I flew the SLUF, they came when I flew the A-10.


DD951

TheMann said: ↑
National Geographic Magazine is doing an article on "The Second Battle of New Orleans", as it was the biggest battle in the Gulf of the War until the Siege of Houston. For us, it was three carriers (Oriskany, Lexington and Bennington), three battleships (Alabama, Massachusetts and North Carolina) and two heavy cruisers (St. Paul and Newport News) and many destroyers and frigates, as well as lots of land-based air power (mostly Marine F-4s and A-4s) and a British squadron (centered around HMS Ark Royal). For them, it was lots of land-based air power (Soviet, Libyan and Cuban MiGs and Sukhois), two Kiev-class aircraft cruisers (and their useless Yak-38 fighters), three Ivan Rogovs and lots of smaller vessels. They also had a trio of Tu-95s with smaller AShMs.

They told me all about what happened, and it was amazing. Apparently one of the Marine A-4s shot down one of the Tu-95s, and hit him with Zuni rockets. That guy got the Navy Cross. The Russians apparently had expected the carriers to come at 'em, but they didn't expect for our and the British SSNs and SSKs to annihalate the sub fleet they had, and for the battleships to get in on it. They only realized that they were involved when Alabama and Massachusetts opened up on 'em with the big 16" guns. What little made it to the Beach ran head on into Brigadier Andre Milliken and the Mississippi NG, which smashed them to bits. We lost several vessels to Soviet attacks, a bunch of fighters got shot down and Alabama took a torp in the screws which put her in the dock for 21 months while yard guys fixed the damage. Massachusetts was one of the big players at the end of the war, apparently. Two Presidential Unit Commendations, apprently - one for shelling the schloopy out of the Mexican oil fields and blowing up several of the Mexican oil platforms, the second for covering the landings of our guys in the Marianas.
I was wondering where Bennington and Oriskany went- they, along with Hornet were all in mothballs in Bremerton when it started, & were being reactivated at the same time everything else was, but Hornet was the only one I heard of serving in the Pacific- she had a air group first of a Marine Harrier squadron & assorted helicopters, but the Harriers were reassigned to close air-support for the 4th Marine Division & replaced with a mix of F-8s, A-4s, S-2s, & a couple E-1s recovered from AMARC. She spent most of her time escorting various convoys, and occasionally flying strikes to support naval & ground operations in Alaska, BC, & later the Marianas, but not a big player in that regard because of the small size of her air group.

I did see Massachusetts providing fire support for the landings in the Marianas. 'Big Mamie' did a truly impressive number on several enemy positions- guess she felt like she was making up for missing out on the last time the USN was engaged in combat activity around those parts (was undergoing overhaul at Bremerton when the Battle of the Philippine Sea happened).

BigWillyG

I was speaking with him just yesterday said:
Oriskany[/I], Lexington and Bennington), three battleships (Alabama, Massachusetts and North Carolina) and two heavy cruisers (St. Paul and Newport News) and many destroyers and frigates, as well as lots of land-based air power (mostly Marine F-4s and A-4s) and a British squadron (centered around HMS Ark Royal). For them, it was lots of land-based air power (Soviet, Libyan and Cuban MiGs and Sukhois), two Kiev-class aircraft cruisers (and their useless Yak-38 fighters), three Ivan Rogovs and lots of smaller vessels. They also had a trio of Tu-95s with smaller AShMs.

They told me all about what happened, and it was amazing. Apparently one of the Marine A-4s shot down one of the Tu-95s, and hit him with Zuni rockets. That guy got the Navy Cross. The Russians apparently had expected the carriers to come at 'em, but they didn't expect for our and the British SSNs and SSKs to annihalate the sub fleet they had, and for the battleships to get in on it. They only realized that they were involved when Alabama and Massachusetts opened up on 'em with the big 16" guns. What little made it to the Beach ran head on into Brigadier Andre Milliken and the Mississippi NG, which smashed them to bits. We lost several vessels to Soviet attacks, a bunch of fighters got shot down and Alabama took a torp in the screws which put her in the dock for 21 months while yard guys fixed the damage. Massachusetts was one of the big players at the end of the war, apparently. Two Presidential Unit Commendations, apprently - one for shelling the schloopy out of the Mexican oil fields and blowing up several of the Mexican oil platforms, the second for covering the landings of our guys in the Marianas.


QUOTE]

I remember 2nd New Orleans. None of us in the light forces were in it but we spent a good chunk of time before then trying our damndest to keep any more Combloc ships from making it into the Gulf.
I saw Mass in action on one of the raids on Cuba. It was beutiful watching her guns rip up the Havanna naval yards. Those raids were always busy, we had to take on Castros light forces to protect Mass and the other big ships.

BigWillyG

thepenguin said: ↑
Well, then. I can wait. Anyways, here's a pic of my A-7E masquerading as the A-7A I flew when I first was a fighter pilot. 'OH' 68-0569; N2A7E. The kill markings on the nose did not come when I flew the SLUF, they came when I flew the A-10.
[​IMG]
I feel like I recognize those markings. You ever fly off the Carolina/Georgia coast or in the Gulf?

thepenguin

BigWillyG said: ↑
I feel like I recognize those markings. You ever fly off the Carolina/Georgia coast or in the Gulf?
Not my wing. After the 179th Tactical Airlift Group got virtually decimated during the Denver Airlift (there were two C-130s, one flyable, the other for parts, two pilots, a navigator, and two loadmasters-they had to train ground crew), they were reconstituted as the 179th Tactical Fighter Wing. I transferred over from the 910th TAG as a new 1st Lieutenant after I figured out I didn't want to be a moving bullseye. They sent us to Malmstrom in Montana when we got our A-7s for training and convoy interdiction. We switched to A-10s before Wichita and were flying out of St. Louis until after that battle. We flew out of McConnell during the push into Oklahoma, and we followed the ground troops after that. My wing never got out of the GPTO/SWTO (Great Plains Theater of Operations; Southwest Theater of Operations). You might be thinking of the 178th or the guys from Toledo.

trekchu

I once saw Iowa during a live fire exercise a couple of years ago. They shelled one of the Islands in the Keys that's still impassable from the gassing.

sloreck

Mann: I was senior medical officer for the Marine forces that retook Guam. Got to see "Mamie" help clear the way for the Marines, and after the landing saw what the receiving end of the 16" shells looked like - made a tremendous mess & we found dead NKs some distance from any shrapnel who died from internal injries from blast effect in the open air! One of the untold stories is that of the Guam guerillas - mixed group of Navy/Marine/AF/Guam ANG who avoided being captured when the NKs took over and lived in the interior (thanks to the knowledge of the Guamanians) & raised holy hell with the NKs. The senior officer got the MOH, the unit a PUC and several civilians got medals of freedom (some posthumous) for the work they did in supplying intel etc.A few NKs made it to the hills, but without any local support they were hunted down fairly quickly & I understand there are a few mounted NK heads in some bars.

Penguin: We have a house in Door County & a sailboat, if you are ever headed that way from the big lake let me know we'll have some beers, tell sea stories and go out on the water under wind power.

Matt Wiser

Given as how the NKs on occasion could be more vicious than the Soviets or Cubans reprisal-wise, those decorations are all richly deserved. Remember that the NKs refused to acknowledge that the Armistice applied to them, too (no thanks to Kim-il-Sung), and had the gall to say that if we wanted Guam back, we had to pay for it-literally ($250 Billion). Needless to say, nobody was buying that idea (pardon the pun), so we took it back. Too bad the NKs are still around-there's still some scores remaining to be settled, just as with the Mexicans and the Rump USSR. The strange thing is that the NKs went after Guam and ignored Saipan and Tinian. It didn't take long for PACCOM to have listening posts set up, and once the war in North America was over, get AF and Marine Air elements established at Kobler Field (Saipan's International Airport-now Isley AFB). Then came FORAGER II-the liberation of Guam: three weeks to retake the island and another month to mop up. And some wonder nowadays why the Marianas are so heavily fortified....

Sometime next year, we need to have a get-together of the Jet Warbird Owners; most of us are combat veterans, and all of the planes we fly have combat time recorded. Maybe at next year's Victory Day air show, a fly-in of jet warbirds would be in order.

The Guerillas are getting their own Osprey book: I noticed on Amazon that a book is due to be released in their Men-at-War series: Guerilla: The American Resistance Fighter in World War III. This one should be a good introductory to the topic. Anyone interested in the guerillas ought to snag a copy. It's due out in January.

Wolfman

TheMann said: ↑
Iowa and Missouri were salvaged after the war, too. That's why Missouri and Iowa are now running on nuclear reactors with lots of new ASW gear and new SAMs. The US figured after the exploits of the Iowas, they needed to keep them in the Navy if at all possible. Iowa was in shallow water IIRC, and Missouri was ordered recovered by the President himself. Missouri is a rather nice new ship these days. Got a guided tour from the XO when she last stopped by in Miami. The new CIC on the rebuilt warwagon looks like something out of Star Trek.

During the early days of the invasion, the USN called up everything they could possibly hope to use - which is how I got to fly cover a bunch of times to Alabama, Massachusetts and North Carolina. Alabama took a torp in the screws in Mid-86 and spent much of the war in dry-dock in New Orleans. The others took hits, but they were fixed (hastily in more than a few cases) and sent back out there. They, like Oriskany and Shangri-La, spent most of their time in the Gulf and Mid-Atlantic, doing sub hunting or convoy raiding.

My brother was on Kitty Hawk when she got a bunch of Sunbirds. The damage was extensive, but thankfully America was close enough to allow my bro and his guys to land their Tomcats and fuel up. Of course, she got sunk three days later with most of her hands, including my brother's childhood friend Mark. The missiles that did her in came from Slava, which was sunk about a year later by Vincennes, apparently.

And yeah, we're gonna stay a naval power. It's good for us that the Navy figures recovering some of the ships is cheaper and easier than building new ones, though I know the Navy had a hard time believing the President wanted Iowa and Missouri salvaged. Bet they are happy now, though. I know my old buddies in the Marines REALLY wanted all five of the BB survivors to stay on to provide a permanent fire support platform (North Carolina was decommissioned after the war, the other two are in the Navy, though, along with all four Iowas), to the point they offered to crew and operate them out of their budget, not the Navy's. (That, I must admit, was kinda surprising. But hey, when one needs firepower, a 45,000 ton battleship does tend to solve that problem pretty well.) I think thanks to the USMC's need to have fire support that those old warhorses will be flying the flag for some time to come. And while I am an air jockey, I have to admit seeing Missouri as she is now is more than a little impressive.
I thought the Alabama was permanantly drydocked in Mobile with her main battery plugged with concrete or was I mistaken?:confused:

Wolfman

truth is life said: ↑
The problem with the Texas is that it has the old 14"/45 Mk. I guns, and while the Navy might have plenty of old 16"/50 ammunition lying around for the Iowa's, it probably doesn't have much ammo designed for guns almost 30 years older. So, it would probably end up being an expensive liability in terms of actual war-fighting ability. Still, driving it across the Gulf in the face of the enemy...that crew had some guts.
As I recall, they would've needed tugs, as she had her screws removed at some point between 1948 and when they moved her... still, it was quite the accomplishment, wasn't it?

Matt Wiser

One condition that the Navy puts on donating ships to use as museums is that the ship must be made available to the Navy again if that is requested, and kept in that condition.

Wolfman

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Speaking of cars, Lisa found the Mach 1 Mustang in Wichita Falls, just sitting in a garage. All it needed was a new battery and some gas in the tank. Nobody came forward postwar to claim the car, and she's had it ever since. There's an Intermountain West Mustang Show in Salt Lake every year, and we take the Mustang there if duty permits.
I flew with VMA(AW)-533 Hawks when the II MEF was holding the line around Baton Rouge. Well, while I was working as a FAC with the 2nd Marine Division during LONG RIFLE, I found a 1967 Shelby GT-500 Cobra in very good shape in Katy, outside of Houston when the Division rolled through... I took it with me back to MCAS Cherry Point when the war ended.
Last edited: Dec 1, 2009

[lordroel]

From page 74

BigWillyG

thepenguin said: ↑
Not my wing. After the 179th Tactical Airlift Group got virtually decimated during the Denver Airlift (there were two C-130s, one flyable, the other for parts, two pilots, a navigator, and two loadmasters-they had to train ground crew), they were reconstituted as the 179th Tactical Fighter Wing. I transferred over from the 910th TAG as a new 1st Lieutenant after I figured out I didn't want to be a moving bullseye. They sent us to Malmstrom in Montana when we got our A-7s for training and convoy interdiction. We switched to A-10s before Wichita and were flying out of St. Louis until after that battle. We flew out of McConnell during the push into Oklahoma, and we followed the ground troops after that. My wing never got out of the GPTO/SWTO (Great Plains Theater of Operations; Southwest Theater of Operations). You might be thinking of the 178th or the guys from Toledo.
I was mistaken then. Markings on your bird look like the markings the Marine squadron that went after convoys had. Sorry bout the major misidentification I only ever saw SLUFFs when they were screaming in at full speed to hit ComBloc shipping.

thepenguin

BigWillyG said: ↑
I was mistaken then. Markings on your bird look like the markings the Marine squadron that went after convoys had. Sorry bout the major misidentification I only ever saw SLUFFs when they were screaming in at full speed to hit ComBloc shipping.
Marines!? We're Air Force all da way! We got the A-7A/Bs sometime around late 1985, and they came in the Navy's paint scheme. We kept the large star 'n' bar, but we painted the aircraft overall dark grey, and painted our tailcode and air force serial. Don't worry, we were always mistaken for Navy or Corps until they saw the "OH" on the tail.

Wolfman

Matt Wiser said: ↑
One condition that the Navy puts on donating ships to use as museums is that the ship must be made available to the Navy again if that is requested, and kept in that condition.
Well, that's as may be, but, as I said before, the Texas (BB-35) had had her screws removed, one of them is on display along the highway near the San Jacinto Memorial. I have no clue what happened to that screw, because when I went by there as a FAC, it wasn't there...

Wolfman

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Never did run into the USAFUK guys: I was just a junior pilot in the squadron-and had been in the squadron only two months when the balloon went up, which is the only way you'd drop a Red Flag. I do know we kept two of the F-16 Wings (50th and 86th) over there. But when it looked like the invasion was coming (there was more warning than the history books say-but it was only a week's additional warning time), the Army left their equipment behind and flew home and picked up the former war reserve gear. And being the only AF squadron in an otherwise Marine Air Group-man that was strange for a while. (we flew with MAG-11 for the whole war) We felt like the lone AAF squadron at Guadalcanal-AF blue in a sea of Marine camo. But when it was over four years later, the Colonel running MAG-11 called us blue-suiters over and said the USMC Commandant had designated us "Honorary Marines", even though we were Air Force, we'd flown and fought alongside Marines, and helped out Marines on the ground, that we'd earned the honor. 335th TFS vets do show up at reunions of MAG-11 squadrons: There were two F-4 squadrons, one A-4 squadron, one A-6 squadron, and us. MAG-11 called us "Blue-suited Marines" as a result.

11th ACR went back to V Corps when they got home: they did fine. Two PUCs for the unit, and three troopers getting the Medal of Honor should tell you how they did. 11th ACR tries to brag that they were the first to the Rio Grande during BORDER FURY, but it was 3rd ACR in III Corps: they beat the Blackhorse to the river by an hour. And 3rd ACR has the 11th beat in another respect: they had the first girls in the Cav-in combat.

There was an impressive ceremony at Peterson AFB near Colorado Springs this morning, as the two coffins with what are believed to be Toni's and Robert's remains were flown to Dover AFB for testing and ID. Honor guard from Fort Carson, Green Berets from the 5th SFG as the pallbearers, Sen. Mason and the other survivor in attendance, along with the Governor of Colorado, both U.S. Senators from Colorado, and other VIPs. CNN had the whole thing live. I'm at the Mountain Home O-Club now, on my laptop, and there wasn't a dry eye here. Dr. Ramirez said after the ceremony that the DNA tests on Toni should be done "anytime now." A strong hint that the tentative ID has already been made, and that the DNA is just confirmation.
That A-6 unit didn't happen to be 533, did it?

trekchu

Wolfman said: ↑
That A-6 unit didn't happen to be 533, did it?
I heard it was 633.

OOC: The temptation was too hard. The Brits out there will probably understand.

Wolfman

I was referring to VMA(AW)-533 Hawks. I don't recall any VMA(AW)-633...

OOC: Marine A-6 units were VMA(AW), which stood for Marine Corps Medium All-weather Attack.

Wolfman

Matt Wiser said: ↑
As far as the two muscle cars my wife and I have, no, not a problem in getting parts. Car and Driver magazine has had features on "Wheels of the War", and you'd be surprised how many cars from the '60s and early '70s still are going strong. If they start up the old Cannonball races again, it'll be a coin-toss as to which car we'd take. And I wouldn't call either the Mustang or the Cougar "vintage." "Classic Muscle" would be more like it. Kelly Ann Ray normally drives a Jeep, but she's taking some of the book and movie proceeds and buying an Olds 442 convertible from a classic car dealer in Vegas. Nuthin' wrong with old-fashioned muscle, even if Ralph "the Mouth" Nader still wails about 'em from time to time. He said once that in the wartime scrap drives, they all should've been sent to the crusher. He got hooted down for that more than once.
I wonder if that issue talked about a certain Marine Corps A-6 B/N with a blue '67 Shelby GT-500?

TheMann

Wolfman said: ↑
I thought the Alabama was permanantly drydocked in Mobile with her main battery plugged with concrete or was I mistaken?:confused:
OOC: You're mistaken. Alabama, aside from the vessel's permanent mooring and the holes cut into many portions of it for visitors, is intact. Just as Massachusetts and North Carolina are. Texas is the one that had all of the concrete poured into it in the early 70s. In the TL here, a group of her veterans and some brave tugboat captains yanked her from her berth in Texas ahead of the Combloc guys and dragged her to Tampa, wanting to have it refitted and put back in commission, but it was too old to be of much use. She went home earlier this year ITTL.

The idea with the battleships is that we needed as many assets as possible to protect the coasts, and the BBs fit the bill, as did the old Essex class carriers. But here, they held their own so well that the Navy, after losing a couple of the supercarriers and an Iowa to enemy action, decides to put them right into the shit, so to speak.

TheMann

Wolfman said: ↑
I wonder if that issue talked about a certain Marine Corps A-6 B/N with a blue '67 Shelby GT-500?
Looking through one of the features, they did mention a Marine Corps A-6 crewman with a Shelby GT500, that got fixed up after the war by a shop in Memphis. Was that yours?

Matt Wiser

VMA(AW)-533: the guys in the other two combat squadrons in 4th TFW had some run-ins with you guys, usually on R&R in New Orleans. The usual "blue-suiter" v. "Jarhead" rivalry was in high gear, and it didn't take much to get a fight going. As is usual in such matters, the losers wound up getting hauled off by the MPs.

Hey Mann: any thoughts on having a Jet Warbird Owners' fly-in at next year's Victory Day air show? Especially if the plan keeps and they have it at Andrews to mark D.C.'s reopening. I do hope you liked the artwork of 512: that bird brought me back every time I flew her. She's at Castle AFB's Museum now, but the F-4 I own is painted up just like her-only with 15 red stars instead of 12. And the Wings over the Rockies Air Museum and the AF Academy are still fighting over 515's tail section. Only now, it's in court.

The A-6 outfit that 335th TFS flew with during the war as part of MAG-11 was VMA (AW)-121 from MCAS El Toro. Along with two USMC F-4 squadrons and an A-4 squadron. Not too often a whole unit gets designated "honorary Marines" but the CG of 1st Marine Aircraft Wing gave us that designation in 1987, halfway through the war. And 335 always sends a pilot or WSO to the Marines on exchange duty. The Marines do the same.

Kelly Ann Ray does remember the naval bombardments of Cuba: except for her two years on the Isle of Pines, there were quite a few times when she and the other POWs in the various POW prisons could hear, and on several occasions, saw, naval gunfire. They learned the hard way not to cheer too loudly, otherwise the guards made sure the POWs paid for it later.

thepenguin

A fly-in would be great. Which parts of D.C. should we avoid (radioactivity wise)? Or did they manage to decon all of Ground Zero?

Matt Wiser

D.C.'s pretty much decontaminated, though where they found (a) the dirt to fill in the crater left by 20 KT, and (b) a place to haul the contaminated soil and rubble is beyond me. Apparently the D.C. bomb was delivered by a missile sub, fused for a low-altitude air burst. (the missile may have been an SS-N-6) GZ was just a hundred yards west of the White House, the intended aim point. It took several years for decon, then the rebuilding began. It should be all ready by Victory Day next year. It's been a 24/7 operation from the get-go.

MAG-11 and 1st MAW made us in 335th TFS "Honorary Marines" in 1987, but the Commandant of the Corps didn't make it official until after the Armistice.

If it's a go for Andrews, and we won't know for a while, just imagine all the jet warbirds doing a flyby of rebuilt D.C.; all the F-4s, A-4s, A-7s, F-8s, AV-8A/C Harriers (there's at least two in private hands now) and even an RA-5C Vigilante.

thepenguin

Matt Wiser said: ↑
D.C.'s pretty much decontaminated, though where they found (a) the dirt to fill in the crater left by 20 KT, and (b) a place to haul the contaminated soil and rubble is beyond me. Apparently the D.C. bomb was delivered by a missile sub, fused for a low-altitude air burst. (the missile may have been an SS-N-6) GZ was just a hundred yards west of the White House, the intended aim point. It took several years for decon, then the rebuilding began. It should be all ready by Victory Day next year. It's been a 24/7 operation from the get-go.

MAG-11 and 1st MAW made us in 335th TFS "Honorary Marines" in 1987, but the Commandant of the Corps didn't make it official until after the Armistice.

If it's a go for Andrews, and we won't know for a while, just imagine all the jet warbirds doing a flyby of rebuilt D.C.; all the F-4s, A-4s, A-7s, F-8s, AV-8A/C Harriers (there's at least two in private hands now) and even an RA-5C Vigilante.
OK. Is the Metrorail running normally? Also, is the Sheraton National Hotel still there (in Alexandria, 5 minutes from the Pentagon City Metro)? Bridie and I met there when I was a high school graduate and she was a high school senior (it was some kind of leadership program). We would want to stay there if at all possible.

Matt Wiser

To my knowledge, the Virginia side's OK. The Pentagon took three years to rebuild back in the mid '90s, along with some of the structures at Arlington, but they have funerals again at Arlington now-another sign of normalcy, and have had for some time. The fallout all went to the SE, between Annapolis and the Patuxent River, into Cheseapeake Bay and ultimately the Atlantic. Not as much from 20 KT as it would've been if that missile warhead had been the usual one on an SS-N-6, which was 1 MT. Some of the buildings still being rebuilt are the White House, the Capitol, Supreme Court, Justice Dept., NASA HQ, and the museums on the mall. Added to the project is the National World War III Memorial, which will be on the mall. but that project won't be finished in time for next Victory Day. Not sure about the Metro rail being up and running, though that's a priority job (along with a dozen other projects) If you look at pics we actually took during the war for damage assessment with how the rebuilding's gone over the years, it's vastly improved. After D.C., it's Manhattan and Newark's turn, and that'll make D.C. look like a cakewalk in terms of rebuilding. The Manhattan bomb was nearly 500 KT, and it was "prepositioned" in a freighter.

JN1

Matt Wiser said: ↑
D.C.'s pretty much decontaminated, though where they found (a) the dirt to fill in the crater left by 20 KT, and (b) a place to haul the contaminated soil and rubble is beyond me. Apparently the D.C. bomb was delivered by a missile sub, fused for a low-altitude air burst. (the missile may have been an SS-N-6) GZ was just a hundred yards west of the White House, the intended aim point. It took several years for decon, then the rebuilding began. It should be all ready by Victory Day next year. It's been a 24/7 operation from the get-go.
I've read somewhere that a lot of the contaminated soil was dumped just over the Mexican border. Probably an internet rumour, but is there any truth in it?

Rebuilding Manhattan is going to be a nightmare. It's not just the fallout and contamination, but also various poisonous chemicals that have leached into the soil and the water table. I've heard its so bad that some people have suggested that the island should just be abandoned apart from what can be salvaged.

(OOC: Yes, I've been reading 'Warday'.)

trekchu

According to my father in Law ( this was before my company got in on DC ) they re-filled the crater with soil dug out from the shipping channels, some minor Islands and even stuff imported from Canada.

Wolfman

TheMann said: ↑
Looking through one of the features, they did mention a Marine Corps A-6 crewman with a Shelby GT500, that got fixed up after the war by a shop in Memphis. Was that yours?
Yeah, that was me, the poor Shelby had gotten a little beat up under it's Russkie owner, but I couldn't find the time to get it fixed during the war...

Wolfman

Matt Wiser said: ↑
VMA(AW)-533: the guys in the other two combat squadrons in 4th TFW had some run-ins with you guys, usually on R&R in New Orleans. The usual "blue-suiter" v. "Jarhead" rivalry was in high gear, and it didn't take much to get a fight going. As is usual in such matters, the losers wound up getting hauled off by the MPs.
I never got involved with the fights, but I saw a couple of them. It was always enlisted and the younger noncoms, IIRC.

Matt Wiser

Not always: there were a few pilots and aircrew who did a day or two in the brig for drunk-and-disorderly (the usual charge). The NOPD usually let the MPs and Navy Shore Patrol handle matters involving military personnel. (the Navy had an extensive riverine presence along the Mississippi during the two years the river was the front line) You name it, if it could mount guns, it was on the river. And there were Vietnam Vets who'd been in the "Brown Water Navy" in the Mekong Delta and along South Vietnam's coastline who came back to operate many of those boats, along with a number of Vietnamese refugees who'd settled in Texas and became shrimpers. Some of them were ex-South Vietnamese Navy, and were glad to be back in their old business for their adopted country. One ex-VNN skipper, who went into the USN as a Lt. Cmdr, won a Medal of Honor doing stuff along the Texas and Louisiana coastline in those patrol boats. (they awarded rank in the USN based on previous experience-though usually at one grade lower than their South Vietnamese service-the same for ex-VNAF or ARVN who joined up) It should be noted that the ComBloc was very reluctant to go into the swamp country-so those areas of Louisiana, Arkansas, and Texas were frequent locations for guerilla camps.

Trekchu: what projects in D.C. did your company get? Didn't you say earlier that you'd gotten the work on the Mall museums?

Not sure where they dumped all the contaminated soil and rubble....they wanted to ship all that stuff to the Nevada Test Site and stick it in a cavern created by an underground test, but safety issues involved with shipping the stuff scotched that idea. Let's just say it's no longer in the U.S.....

Wolfman

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Not always: there were a few pilots and aircrew who did a day or two in the brig for drunk-and-disorderly (the usual charge). The NOPD usually let the MPs and Navy Shore Patrol handle matters involving military personnel. (the Navy had an extensive riverine presence along the Mississippi during the two years the river was the front line) You name it, if it could mount guns, it was on the river. And there were Vietnam Vets who'd been in the "Brown Water Navy" in the Mekong Delta and along South Vietnam's coastline who came back to operate many of those boats, along with a number of Vietnamese refugees who'd settled in Texas and became shrimpers. Some of them were ex-South Vietnamese Navy, and were glad to be back in their old business for their adopted country. One ex-VNN skipper, who went into the USN as a Lt. Cmdr, won a Medal of Honor doing stuff along the Texas and Louisiana coastline in those patrol boats. (they awarded rank in the USN based on previous experience-though usually at one grade lower than their South Vietnamese service-the same for ex-VNAF or ARVN who joined up) It should be noted that the ComBloc was very reluctant to go into the swamp country-so those areas of Louisiana, Arkansas, and Texas were frequent locations for guerilla camps.
Yeah, the patrol boats and partisans, when the partisans had radios, were frequent customers. I remember one time my pilot and I were the ready CAS crew when this partisan comes up on the radio asking for help. Seems that this group had been caught out in the open and were pinned down by at least a company of Cubans, lucky for them, they had a radio that could talk to us. Well, the Skipper decided to scramble everybody who wasn't already out on missions to bail these folks out. Anyways, we gave Fidel quite the beating and the partisans managed to return to the swamps from wheich they came. Later BDA flights by Marine Corps RF-4Bs indicated the squadron had hammered a battalion of Cubans into the mud.
Last edited: Dec 2, 2009