forcon
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Post by forcon on Dec 1, 2018 20:10:10 GMT
The Chinese must really be holding on by their fingernails by now. Multiple waves of nuclear strikes including city-killers, chemical warfare, and large-scale defeats on the ground; their situation looks almost as bad as Germany's after Bagration. I guess after losing so much, the PRC's logic might be that there just isn't anything left to lose and so they may as well fight on until there is nobody left to keep fighting. Maybe I'm misreading the situation but China's situation is desperate.
Good update, as with the EDA update yesterday!
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James G
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Post by James G on Dec 1, 2018 20:28:28 GMT
The Chinese must really be holding on by their fingernails by now. Multiple waves of nuclear strikes including city-killers, chemical warfare, and large-scale defeats on the ground; their situation looks almost as bad as Germany's after Bagration. I guess after losing so much, the PRC's logic might be that there just isn't anything left to lose and so they may as well fight on until there is nobody left to keep fighting. Maybe I'm misreading the situation but China's situation is desperate. Good update, as with the EDA update yesterday! Oh, now they really are finished on the battlefield. The PLA had the last of everything on the Yangtze and its gone. Desperate would be an understatement for them! Thank you. |
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Post by eurowatch on Dec 1, 2018 20:44:33 GMT
I assume the Chinese leadership is taking a similar aprproach to the war as they did during the Second Sino-Japanese war: as long as their enemy is losing on all the other fronts, it doesn't matter how their war is going. Their government and the spirit of the Chinese People still exsists, so they are winning.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 1, 2018 23:18:54 GMT
What about Africa, is South Africa still fighting the South African Border War. Things are very different in southern Africa. All that Cuban and Soviet attention which went there in OTL went to Central America instead. I haven't thought about how exactly everything went. So I'm not sure. Are Spanish and Portuguese troops also going to join the fighting in West Germany? I also have the feeling that sooner rather then later Greece is going to experience another Battle of Crete as the EDA moves to destroy what is left of the Soviet naval forces in the Med. Portuguese, no. There is the possibility of the Spanish though, now you said it. If they do, they will be with the British. Greece just got beat up by the Turks and will not want to see that. They might not have a choice though. McCain and Kerry will be excellent US presidents in TTL's future. The Soviets are overextending themselves. If the Warsaw Pact countries rebel, when things go south for the soviets, the Soviets might lose bad. There might a lot of prosecutions after the war for spreading soviet counter-information. Glad someone noticed that! They overextended themselves from the first day but starting a fight with Sweden was always going to led to a conflict with Western Europe. This is classic Hitler-level multi-front wars against everyone. Well it was going OK until that last bit.  There are better places for using the British army and I bloody hope their staying under national command rather than being put under EDA control. If the EDA sacrificed them for its own political aims there will be hell to pay, no matter how spineless the British government is. The EDA have been lucky so far that the Soviets have also done a 180 on their previous behaviour but I can understand the panic in a lot of western Europe about the conflict. If the conflict starts to escalate the Soviets will really have to take the gloves off and if the EDA is trying to get back on friendly terms with the allies they really need to do it quickly, while the former is still vulnerable. A US nuclear guarentee, while probably difficult for Glenn to agree is a damned sight more reliable than a French one. As I have said before, I consider mainland Europe to be the best place for the British Army. They have a multi-corps army group (an Irish brigade included) and will be under sole UK command. When the EDA treaty was signed, there were British representatives there in an unofficial-but-official role. A situation like this was foreseen, just like a need for that Purloin plan. If the EDA did act against the British, there is the mood to do something in return yet none of that is in the open. It is also very unlikely. The Soviets doing a 180? Only with the US did they open with nukes. And in return they lost their second city and had a swath of missile silos hit with ground-bursts - bad news too. Attacking Spain, China and Sweden each time has seen opening attacks with conventional means. The European strike was planned to be conventional too. Hell no would the US give that. The French are far more reliable for their partners: they never pulled out their troops and left them defenceless like the US did. James- awesome work! The surrender of the French Berlin brigade has me wondering about the overall POW experience. We’ve seen both sides exploiting high value prisoners (Putin, etc), but what about the mass of prisoners and detainees of low to no value? We’ve seen the Soviets backhauling some and using others for labor, but what about the Americans- I can only expect that the ABC forces will be challenged to provide rations and care for their prisoners as well given the disruption caused by the nuclear attacks and conventional fighting. Thank you. That is a good point in terms of something I hadn't thought about. Let me see how I can factor that in. You're correct: it will be a big deal. I suspect the British deployment is very likely to be into it's NATO assigned positions - it simply makes the most sense. The troops will have trained in the area, already have contingencies in place and will be familiar with the local Landwehr and Bundeswehr units, who will also be familiar with the Brits. Politically there may be some rankles, but on a man to man, unit to unit even Regiment to Regiment basis there will be an understanding that the political bollocks has nothing to do with them and they're there to do a job. That makes perfect sense. All those connections are there and this isn't unfamiliar territory, yes. The NATO Northern Army Group became the West German Northern Army (similarly, the French First Army took over CENTAG) so command-wise things will be different but that will be the best place to go and things can be worked out once on the North German Plain.
Yes but I suspect there will be some resentment and fear that again British forces will be used as body shields for the EDA if under the latter's command. Plus their role there was basically defensive not offensive, which is a different matter politically more than tactically.
Also there is the political issue that Britain doing this does rather suggest its deserting its allies, who still have territory occupied to help the EDA's expansion, which could look bad among the allies. Not to mention if, as would be almost certain in RL it goes tits-up with a nuclear response against the EDA we could lose a lot of troops.
Body shields/ How? Why? When before? I don't understand this at all. Britain isn't abandoning its allies at all. It will have the full support of the rest of the alliance to do this. I think the Americans Will understand that deploying the British second army in Germany is much more useful and far less Dangerous then risking a dash across the Atlantic. They haven't complained before, why would they start complaining now? Spot on with all of that. Fighting the Soviets, anywhere possible, helps the Americans & Canadians & Norwegians & Portuguese & Spanish and everyone else including the UK mainland too.
That's what their done when their relying on the British and other allies to do the fighting for them after they ducked out of their treaty commitments. They never bothered getting involved when they could have made a big difference and their actions now could make things a lot worse. As it is the Soviets aren't attacking the EDA - albeit that's partly because the EDA pre-emptived their decision to fight in Sweden but that means there's no threat in W Germany at the moment. Even assuming if they did attack, with conventional weapons they could get anywhere near the channel which seems unlikely. If the EDA does trigger a localised nuclear exchange on the continent I would rather British troops be nowhere near.
In the real world, especially given the example set by the agreement earlier in the conflict only an idiot would attack a nuclear power with nuclear weapons so its unlikely that if the Soviets did react to the EDA threat with a nuclear strike it would escalate very far.
I'm sorry, but I really don't agree with this at all. It's my story and there are things I forget to write but I have in my head, but this shouldn't be a reading of the situation. It doesn't work. I really don't think you are seeing things the way I write them. We'll put that all on me as an author and not explaining things right. However, with the greatest of respect, I'd much prefer that you didn't keep arguing with everyone in the thread about everything. I have asked before. I'm sorry to say, and I mean no offense, but it seems that when it comes to the subject of Europe, you are just arguing with others based on current events rather than the story. It has long gone on too much. Please stop.
James
True probably partly its that the EDA is mirroring the character of the OTL EU, albeit in a bloodier method here and definitely I think in the eyes of the supporters of both but there are hard logical reasons for my points as well. To summarise. a) I still think the British forces would be better served helping the allies rather than the EDA. Not in N America as that's impractical and I suspect likely to be effectively over before they get there but in helping the European powers, liberating the Azores, Iceland and helping in Norway. There is a purpose to having a force in reserve to help out the EDA if it turns totally pear shaped for them, which it might have if the Soviets got an even competent leaders but you yourself have been saying British forces aren't needed there. Its less of an issue if there has been discussions, which I don't think your mentioned before and if the British forces are under their own commands but still a dubious use of forces.
b) Yes the Soviets got a bloody nose after a major nuclear strike on the US. However it didn't stop it using them against the Chinese or the Swedish. Given their weakness on the ground a small scale nuclear warning to the EDA would be the logical approach in response to the EDA offensives. France isn't the US and doesn't have the capacity for a major attack, or even to escalate the exchange without facing national destruction. Currently the EDA are outside the US/UK nuclear umbrella so a quick limited strike now could well force the EDA back onto the defensive and cause major internal divisions within it.
However if you don't want me to contribute to the thread any more I won't as its your thread. You haven't said anything to specifically to me before. There has been general comments when I have responded to a couple of other posters on the thread who have made some fairly extreme statements and those exchanges have been threatening to take over the thread but nothing before aimed directly at me.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 2, 2018 9:17:33 GMT
(299)February 1985: China The Soviet nuclear targeting plot in China, the two waves of city-busting attacks, had been examined carefully by outsiders – the Americans especially – to provide ‘meaning’ to all of it. There was a reason why some cities were targeted and others weren’t. The second wave of strikes took the greatest interest, those made in retaliation to the Chinese obliteration of Vladivostok. The half a dozen cities hit in November 1984 had clearly been selected beforehand for geo-political reasons whereas those four wiped off the face of the earth in October appeared to have been hit on impulse. There were those that the Americans regarded as which should have been on the November firing plot and were left off. Nanchang could be excused because that was where the Chinese government under Hu had moved to but Nanjing (a historic Chinese capital) and others spread southwards away from the radioactive ruin of Shanghai down the coast opposite Taiwan had all be pointedly left alone. There had been that attempt to get Taiwan onside by the Soviets and that explained much of that. A further belief that the Americans had was that Moscow wished to see a post-war China have both a population and industrial base for its own exploitation in the victory they were chasing. Such reading of the situation by the Americans was entirely correct. These were Soviet intentions. In Moscow they still had that aim to see a surviving China once the war was over, one under Soviet tutelage. The defiance had to be finished off first though. Nanjing sat alongside the Yangtze River and past that waterway were Nanchang and the Coastal Provinces. Soviet armies moved in that direction starting mid-February. The Chinese had the last of their large organised forces in the way and the mission orders ran for those to be defeated. It was to be the biggest battle of the war, one for the history books in terms of huge forces involved and the ferocity of the fight. The Battle of the Yangtze River it would be deemed afterwards. It would be a battle which those history book would show the Soviets as the victors. They took Nanjing, went over the Yangtze and carried onwards as the month came to a close. The PLA was incapable of stopping them. They bled the Soviets greatly but this wasn’t enough to stop that steamroller which couldn’t be stopped. A trio of large pockets of cut-off Chinese troopers were formed south of the river, each with tens of thousands of PLA men caught inside them. One of the pockets was forced back towards the East China Sea and in the direction of what once was Shanghai; the other two couldn’t move and stayed where they were in the countryside. Soviet follow-on forces moved against them and began using chemical weapons in-number to further weaken what was left of them. The intention was to take each apart next month when that weakening had taken effect. Soviet forward spearheads pushed through the huge gaps ripped open once south of the Yangtze. Hangzhou first before Ningbo and Wenzhou were out ahead along with the sea as the Soviets moved southeast towards Zhejiang Province. Other Soviet armies sent their lead units into the southern parts of Anhui: a province which the Yangtze ran through the middle of. These drove in a southwestern direction now and Nanchang was beyond them. That city sat behind the Poyang Lake – a formidable obstacle – and was a long way off but within reach beforehand of Soviet air strikes ahead of the tanks following. With his armies driving on Nanchang, and the last of the PLA’s heavier forces defeated, Vorotnikov waited for Hu to begin the process of arranging for talks to commence. China was beaten. There was no hope left for Hu now but to allow for diplomacy. There was division within the upper levels of leadership in Moscow yet none in Vorotnikov’s mind. The China War was now finally won. It had to be. Britain had secured support from both Brunei and Singapore to help with the Hong Kong refugee crisis. The two smaller nations agreed to provide aid to stop the British colonial possession from ending up like Macau. Their assistance would come with a price to be paid later, a price which differed between each yet generally covered trade access and military support in the post-war world. Britain looked likely to come out worse off from each agreement. If the situation hadn’t been so urgent then London would never have agreed. It was though and so the deals had been struck. No one else could help. The United States was in no position to do so and neither were more traditional allies such as Australia and New Zealand either. Abandoning Hong Kong and letting it possibly fall under Taiwanese influence – they took over Hainan before the end of the month, now overtly gobbling up bits of China – was not to be done. Thus, these two other countries were turned to. Singapore was going to provide the manpower while Brunei provided support, especially immediate financial support. Singapore had troops in South Korea and those were some of its best units in terms of training & equipment. More stayed at home, those of a lesser calibre. A brigade-sized force went to Hong Kong. They were flown there on commercial airliners in the colours of Cathay Pacific & Singapore Airlines (the smaller Royal Brunei Airlines aided in this) and arrived with light weapons. These were soldiers and thus came equipped for a fight. Overall, civilian refugees fleeing from China and seeking safety in Hong Kong in overwhelming numbers were helpless yet among them there were armed people as well: many defectors from the PLA. To come without weapons would have been foolish, especially since British forces in Hong Kong had already many times engaged armed opponents inside and on the edges of the territory. Medical and engineering personnel arrived too. What refugees were already inside needed to be attended to alongside the effort to patrol the frontier. Brunei funding was used to secure purchases of food and medical supplies to further support the needy inside Hong Kong: those who lived there and those who had arrived. It was money from the Sultan of Brunei which also paid all of the associated costs with the military deployment too. Nothing came cheap. This was certainly apparent when other nations realised that they were in a position to make a profit from Britain’s plight when it came to Hong Kong. Singaporean troops were soon alongside the British 26th Gurkha Brigade providing the ‘defence’ of Hong Kong. The New Territories in the north and the long land border there with the Chinese mainland needed particular attention. However, the security and future of Hong Kong was under threat from all other directions as well where boats and at times even light aircraft had been making landings depositing people. It was a huge task to not just patrol the frontiers (the coastline was extensive) but inland as well. In all honestly, to stop every single entry made, five – maybe ten – times as many men from Singapore might have been needed. What came was a start though, enough to take the pressure off. The British understood that some refugees were going to get through. What they didn’t want to see was a horde of them pour in, all in urgent need and all taking what they wanted to try to ease their plight but instead bringing everything down around them. There was sympathy for such people who wanted to flee from their war-torn nation… but the wellbeing of the colony and those who lived here came first. Now, with outside support having finally arrived, even from another country rather than Britain itself, there was some hope in Hong Kong that they wouldn’t go the way of Macau. Millions of people in China remained on the move and a lot were still outside Hong Kong though. The whole situation wasn’t resolved. It was just a case of a stopgap measure and an easing of pressure. To rectify the whole situation, something else would have to be done. What that was, no one in neither Hong Kong nor London knew. Great update as always James G, also i am wondering if Hong Kong might end up becoming something like Singapore, a independent city state in the commonwealth in the future. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Dec 2, 2018 16:51:13 GMT
I assume the Chinese leadership is taking a similar aprproach to the war as they did during the Second Sino-Japanese war: as long as their enemy is losing on all the other fronts, it doesn't matter how their war is going. Their government and the spirit of the Chinese People still exsists, so they are winning. There is that. They are also being remarkably stubborn too. China has lost and should see sense but pride will not allow it. They are waiting on external factors yet those might not go completely in their favour.
James
True probably partly its that the EDA is mirroring the character of the OTL EU, albeit in a bloodier method here and definitely I think in the eyes of the supporters of both but there are hard logical reasons for my points as well. To summarise. a) I still think the British forces would be better served helping the allies rather than the EDA. Not in N America as that's impractical and I suspect likely to be effectively over before they get there but in helping the European powers, liberating the Azores, Iceland and helping in Norway. There is a purpose to having a force in reserve to help out the EDA if it turns totally pear shaped for them, which it might have if the Soviets got an even competent leaders but you yourself have been saying British forces aren't needed there. Its less of an issue if there has been discussions, which I don't think your mentioned before and if the British forces are under their own commands but still a dubious use of forces.
b) Yes the Soviets got a bloody nose after a major nuclear strike on the US. However it didn't stop it using them against the Chinese or the Swedish. Given their weakness on the ground a small scale nuclear warning to the EDA would be the logical approach in response to the EDA offensives. France isn't the US and doesn't have the capacity for a major attack, or even to escalate the exchange without facing national destruction. Currently the EDA are outside the US/UK nuclear umbrella so a quick limited strike now could well force the EDA back onto the defensive and cause major internal divisions within it.
However if you don't want me to contribute to the thread any more I won't as its your thread. You haven't said anything to specifically to me before. There has been general comments when I have responded to a couple of other posters on the thread who have made some fairly extreme statements and those exchanges have been threatening to take over the thread but nothing before aimed directly at me.
Steve
Your contributions throughout are valued greatly. I just don't want to see rancour. Great update as always James G, also i am wondering if Hong Kong might end up becoming something like Singapore, a independent city state in the commonwealth in the future. Thank you. Wow, that is a good idea! I've seen Hong Kong in other war stories involving China collapsing as under UK control and gobbling up bits of China and never agreed with that. Independence is something new and I like it. They would have to have the New Territories but there would be no need for anything else in terms of land nor people. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Dec 2, 2018 16:51:42 GMT
(300)
February 1985: Korea
The Second Korean War had seen the utter horrors of modern war inflicted up both of the divided Koreas. This had included the use of nuclear and chemical weapons, again both sides of the DMZ inside the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea and the Republic of Korea too. The armies of each country had fought the other as well as those of their respective allies. Civilian casualties had occurred across the peninsula with those caught up in the conventional fighting as well as the attacks made using weapons of mass destruction. Refugees had fled internally in great numbers though few, very few, had escaped overseas. The regime in North Korea managed to maintain its extraordinary tight grip over the lives of its people and ran an effective total war despite everything thrown at them. In the South, the government was forced into a total war situation too and this saw quite a severe turn to authoritarianism domestically just to survive. Each side sought a victory: total victory to justify total war. By the end of February, one was looking likely to see that occur while the other was staring complete defeat right in the face.
Far inside South Korea, the Soviets who turned up late and almost won the war were overcome and defeated. Their corps had long been cut off and they fast run out of everything to carry on the fight that they had to make on all sides. Rescue didn’t come, only continuing Allied attacks. They were especially exposed from above after running out of SAMs and also the majority of their anti-aircraft artillery. Aircraft lined-up above them to make attack runs in perfect order. There were huge American B-52s doing this as well as Australian F-111s, but also far smaller aircraft such as South Korean F-5s and Filipino OV-10s. North Korean forces had already received such attacks when they ran out of air cover though they had been quick to dig-in where they were and better protect themselves from above than the Soviets were. There was no time for the Soviets to learn, not in the middle of what they faced. The Allies were well-practised at this now. Following the worst of the air attacks, South Korean troops moved against the Soviets. They had a tough fight and it took time, yet they emerged victorious in the end. Thousands of prisoners were taken and marched away into captivity. These men would need to be cared for – given the basics as per international law – and treated far better than the South Koreans had treated their fellow Koreans from the KPA who’d they taken in the past and would take elsewhere through February. The Americans were intrigued by this and inquired as to why their allies would do so. They discovered that while certainly not official policy, the South Koreans treated the Soviets better because they hadn’t been responsible for all of the horrors of occupation inflicted upon civilians. The Soviets hadn’t been here for too long and spent every moment fighting. Foreigners they might be – instead of fellow Koreans – but they hadn’t done all that the soldiers of the KPA had.
North Korean pockets of resistance, cut off forces like the Soviets were, remained spread down the western side of South Korean. There were many of these, all full of KPA soldiers who were done for. The South Koreans moved against these, crushing which were considered the weakest first. Those which sat on or aside transport routes were targeted the most. They had to dig the enemy out of its positions and this required a lot of explosives used. Engineers were busy. Many KPA soldiers were buried alive and crushed to death. Calls were made for men to surrender. Shots rang out in response. Therefore, more blasts occurred to eliminate that resistance where it was. Some of the enemy did emerge finally with hands raised. Often, there came the deaths of these men where either their own side or vengeful South Koreans killed such people. Orders from above told the South Korean Army to take and make use of men who surrendered, to get them to persuade others to surrender yet these were ignored by men on the ground when they finally had the enemy at their mercy. ‘Shot while trying to escape’ became the reason for the deaths of many KPA POWs.
Five large pockets of resistance emerged left by the end of the month with all of the smaller ones finished off. The South Koreans began to ready themselves to overcome these starting next month. They had the troops to do it with the country fully-mobilised – teenage boys and old men among them – and the will to do it. These two would be South Korean-only fights. Their allies were elsewhere, closer to the DMZ along with more South Korean forces.
In north-western South Korea, between the Han and the DMZ, a joint offensive took place. All sovereign South Korean soil there was moved against to be liberated too. It was quite the task. US Army forces and US Marines, joined by Commonwealth troops plus those from the Philippines too, undertook a combined offensive through occupied territory where they broke open KPA defences and then struck deep inside, going as far as the DMZ and reaching North Korean territory. The shattered pieces were then attacked. Gaps were left open for KPA retreats to be made so these could be pounced upon. This wasn’t something that often worked out but when it did, it really achieved much more when attacking the enemy on the move than when they were dug-in. Elsewhere, it was more of what had been seen to the south: the most-stubborn enemy which held on when facing an absolute battering with firepower of all forms unleashed against them.
South Korean and American troops went into the DMZ. They found the strip of land occupied by KPA forces and engaged them everywhere that they found them. Movement was made across the area in a west-to-east direction. Crossings over into North Korea proper did occur though orders from above instructed those in the DMZ to focus upon securing a barrier against KPA movement either north-to-south or south-to-north rather than beginning an invasion of North Korea all on their own. Intelligence teams were busy during the time spent in the DMZ. Among their many tasks, they studied the tunnels beneath them from above which had been used as invasion routes during the invasion. Along those, the KPA had driven tanks as well as marched columns of men. Each was quite the feat of engineering. They were atop of them when the ground beneath their feet shook. Down inside those many tunnels, blasts occurred where KPA engineers blew them less they be used as invasion routes this time going north. Examination afterwards would find that inside several of them at the time of their demolition were KPA forces making a withdrawal rather than any attacking South Korean forces. As to such an idea of an underground invasion, the Allies found that laughable. Should they be going north, they would be going overland. There would be no secrecy in their approach!
By the time February came to a close, not all of that previously-occupied South Korean soil which was sought to be liberated was retaken. There remained areas where the KPA held on. None of those were going to last for much longer though and all were cut-off either up close or from behind where the DMZ was in Allied hands. As it was further south, only by next month would all of this be finished. However, many of the men currently here in the very northern reaches of South Korea wouldn’t be taken part in that.
Recall orders came for the 3rd Marine Division and two of the three US Army divisions (the 7th and 25th Infantry) as well. The 2nd Infantry Division would be staying in South Korea. Everyone else was being sent back to the United States. The Americans needed their men to fight now for their own soil.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 2, 2018 18:54:05 GMT
(300)February 1985: Korea The Second Korean War had seen the utter horrors of modern war inflicted up both of the divided Koreas. This had included the use of nuclear and chemical weapons, again both sides of the DMZ inside the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea and the Republic of Korea too. The armies of each country had fought the other as well as those of their respective allies. Civilian casualties had occurred across the peninsula with those caught up in the conventional fighting as well as the attacks made using weapons of mass destruction. Refugees had fled internally in great numbers though few, very few, had escaped overseas. The regime in North Korea managed to maintain its extraordinary tight grip over the lives of its people and ran an effective total war despite everything thrown at them. In the South, the government was forced into a total war situation too and this saw quite a severe turn to authoritarianism domestically just to survive. Each side sought a victory: total victory to justify total war. By the end of February, one was looking likely to see that occur while the other was staring complete defeat right in the face. Far inside South Korea, the Soviets who turned up late and almost won the war were overcome and defeated. Their corps had long been cut off and they fast run out of everything to carry on the fight that they had to make on all sides. Rescue didn’t come, only continuing Allied attacks. They were especially exposed from above after running out of SAMs and also the majority of their anti-aircraft artillery. Aircraft lined-up above them to make attack runs in perfect order. There were huge American B-52s doing this as well as Australian F-111s, but also far smaller aircraft such as South Korean F-5s and Filipino OV-10s. North Korean forces had already received such attacks when they ran out of air cover though they had been quick to dig-in where they were and better protect themselves from above than the Soviets were. There was no time for the Soviets to learn, not in the middle of what they faced. The Allies were well-practised at this now. Following the worst of the air attacks, South Korean troops moved against the Soviets. They had a tough fight and it took time, yet they emerged victorious in the end. Thousands of prisoners were taken and marched away into captivity. These men would need to be cared for – given the basics as per international law – and treated far better than the South Koreans had treated their fellow Koreans from the KPA who’d they taken in the past and would take elsewhere through February. The Americans were intrigued by this and inquired as to why their allies would do so. They discovered that while certainly not official policy, the South Koreans treated the Soviets better because they hadn’t been responsible for all of the horrors of occupation inflicted upon civilians. The Soviets hadn’t been here for too long and spent every moment fighting. Foreigners they might be – instead of fellow Koreans – but they hadn’t done all that the soldiers of the KPA had. North Korean pockets of resistance, cut off forces like the Soviets were, remained spread down the western side of South Korean. There were many of these, all full of KPA soldiers who were done for. The South Koreans moved against these, crushing which were considered the weakest first. Those which sat on or aside transport routes were targeted the most. They had to dig the enemy out of its positions and this required a lot of explosives used. Engineers were busy. Many KPA soldiers were buried alive and crushed to death. Calls were made for men to surrender. Shots rang out in response. Therefore, more blasts occurred to eliminate that resistance where it was. Some of the enemy did emerge finally with hands raised. Often, there came the deaths of these men where either their own side or vengeful South Koreans killed such people. Orders from above told the South Korean Army to take and make use of men who surrendered, to get them to persuade others to surrender yet these were ignored by men on the ground when they finally had the enemy at their mercy. ‘Shot while trying to escape’ became the reason for the deaths of many KPA POWs. Five large pockets of resistance emerged left by the end of the month with all of the smaller ones finished off. The South Koreans began to ready themselves to overcome these starting next month. They had the troops to do it with the country fully-mobilised – teenage boys and old men among them – and the will to do it. These two would be South Korean-only fights. Their allies were elsewhere, closer to the DMZ along with more South Korean forces. In north-western South Korea, between the Han and the DMZ, a joint offensive took place. All sovereign South Korean soil there was moved against to be liberated too. It was quite the task. US Army forces and US Marines, joined by Commonwealth troops plus those from the Philippines too, undertook a combined offensive through occupied territory where they broke open KPA defences and then struck deep inside, going as far as the DMZ and reaching North Korean territory. The shattered pieces were then attacked. Gaps were left open for KPA retreats to be made so these could be pounced upon. This wasn’t something that often worked out but when it did, it really achieved much more when attacking the enemy on the move than when they were dug-in. Elsewhere, it was more of what had been seen to the south: the most-stubborn enemy which held on when facing an absolute battering with firepower of all forms unleashed against them. South Korean and American troops went into the DMZ. They found the strip of land occupied by KPA forces and engaged them everywhere that they found them. Movement was made across the area in a west-to-east direction. Crossings over into North Korea proper did occur though orders from above instructed those in the DMZ to focus upon securing a barrier against KPA movement either north-to-south or south-to-north rather than beginning an invasion of North Korea all on their own. Intelligence teams were busy during the time spent in the DMZ. Among their many tasks, they studied the tunnels beneath them from above which had been used as invasion routes during the invasion. Along those, the KPA had driven tanks as well as marched columns of men. Each was quite the feat of engineering. They were atop of them when the ground beneath their feet shook. Down inside those many tunnels, blasts occurred where KPA engineers blew them less they be used as invasion routes this time going north. Examination afterwards would find that inside several of them at the time of their demolition were KPA forces making a withdrawal rather than any attacking South Korean forces. As to such an idea of an underground invasion, the Allies found that laughable. Should they be going north, they would be going overland. There would be no secrecy in their approach! By the time February came to a close, not all of that previously-occupied South Korean soil which was sought to be liberated was retaken. There remained areas where the KPA held on. None of those were going to last for much longer though and all were cut-off either up close or from behind where the DMZ was in Allied hands. As it was further south, only by next month would all of this be finished. However, many of the men currently here in the very northern reaches of South Korea wouldn’t be taken part in that. Recall orders came for the 3rd Marine Division and two of the three US Army divisions (the 7th and 25th Infantry) as well. The 2nd Infantry Division would be staying in South Korea. Everyone else was being sent back to the United States. The Americans needed their men to fight now for their own soil. Great update on Korea as any other update you do James G. Can we now concude the 2nd Korean War has become a stalemate like the 1st Korean War. |
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raunchel
Commander
Posts: 1,795 
Likes: 1,182
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Post by raunchel on Dec 2, 2018 19:45:58 GMT
(300)February 1985: Korea The Second Korean War had seen the utter horrors of modern war inflicted up both of the divided Koreas. This had included the use of nuclear and chemical weapons, again both sides of the DMZ inside the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea and the Republic of Korea too. The armies of each country had fought the other as well as those of their respective allies. Civilian casualties had occurred across the peninsula with those caught up in the conventional fighting as well as the attacks made using weapons of mass destruction. Refugees had fled internally in great numbers though few, very few, had escaped overseas. The regime in North Korea managed to maintain its extraordinary tight grip over the lives of its people and ran an effective total war despite everything thrown at them. In the South, the government was forced into a total war situation too and this saw quite a severe turn to authoritarianism domestically just to survive. Each side sought a victory: total victory to justify total war. By the end of February, one was looking likely to see that occur while the other was staring complete defeat right in the face. Far inside South Korea, the Soviets who turned up late and almost won the war were overcome and defeated. Their corps had long been cut off and they fast run out of everything to carry on the fight that they had to make on all sides. Rescue didn’t come, only continuing Allied attacks. They were especially exposed from above after running out of SAMs and also the majority of their anti-aircraft artillery. Aircraft lined-up above them to make attack runs in perfect order. There were huge American B-52s doing this as well as Australian F-111s, but also far smaller aircraft such as South Korean F-5s and Filipino OV-10s. North Korean forces had already received such attacks when they ran out of air cover though they had been quick to dig-in where they were and better protect themselves from above than the Soviets were. There was no time for the Soviets to learn, not in the middle of what they faced. The Allies were well-practised at this now. Following the worst of the air attacks, South Korean troops moved against the Soviets. They had a tough fight and it took time, yet they emerged victorious in the end. Thousands of prisoners were taken and marched away into captivity. These men would need to be cared for – given the basics as per international law – and treated far better than the South Koreans had treated their fellow Koreans from the KPA who’d they taken in the past and would take elsewhere through February. The Americans were intrigued by this and inquired as to why their allies would do so. They discovered that while certainly not official policy, the South Koreans treated the Soviets better because they hadn’t been responsible for all of the horrors of occupation inflicted upon civilians. The Soviets hadn’t been here for too long and spent every moment fighting. Foreigners they might be – instead of fellow Koreans – but they hadn’t done all that the soldiers of the KPA had. North Korean pockets of resistance, cut off forces like the Soviets were, remained spread down the western side of South Korean. There were many of these, all full of KPA soldiers who were done for. The South Koreans moved against these, crushing which were considered the weakest first. Those which sat on or aside transport routes were targeted the most. They had to dig the enemy out of its positions and this required a lot of explosives used. Engineers were busy. Many KPA soldiers were buried alive and crushed to death. Calls were made for men to surrender. Shots rang out in response. Therefore, more blasts occurred to eliminate that resistance where it was. Some of the enemy did emerge finally with hands raised. Often, there came the deaths of these men where either their own side or vengeful South Koreans killed such people. Orders from above told the South Korean Army to take and make use of men who surrendered, to get them to persuade others to surrender yet these were ignored by men on the ground when they finally had the enemy at their mercy. ‘Shot while trying to escape’ became the reason for the deaths of many KPA POWs. Five large pockets of resistance emerged left by the end of the month with all of the smaller ones finished off. The South Koreans began to ready themselves to overcome these starting next month. They had the troops to do it with the country fully-mobilised – teenage boys and old men among them – and the will to do it. These two would be South Korean-only fights. Their allies were elsewhere, closer to the DMZ along with more South Korean forces. In north-western South Korea, between the Han and the DMZ, a joint offensive took place. All sovereign South Korean soil there was moved against to be liberated too. It was quite the task. US Army forces and US Marines, joined by Commonwealth troops plus those from the Philippines too, undertook a combined offensive through occupied territory where they broke open KPA defences and then struck deep inside, going as far as the DMZ and reaching North Korean territory. The shattered pieces were then attacked. Gaps were left open for KPA retreats to be made so these could be pounced upon. This wasn’t something that often worked out but when it did, it really achieved much more when attacking the enemy on the move than when they were dug-in. Elsewhere, it was more of what had been seen to the south: the most-stubborn enemy which held on when facing an absolute battering with firepower of all forms unleashed against them. South Korean and American troops went into the DMZ. They found the strip of land occupied by KPA forces and engaged them everywhere that they found them. Movement was made across the area in a west-to-east direction. Crossings over into North Korea proper did occur though orders from above instructed those in the DMZ to focus upon securing a barrier against KPA movement either north-to-south or south-to-north rather than beginning an invasion of North Korea all on their own. Intelligence teams were busy during the time spent in the DMZ. Among their many tasks, they studied the tunnels beneath them from above which had been used as invasion routes during the invasion. Along those, the KPA had driven tanks as well as marched columns of men. Each was quite the feat of engineering. They were atop of them when the ground beneath their feet shook. Down inside those many tunnels, blasts occurred where KPA engineers blew them less they be used as invasion routes this time going north. Examination afterwards would find that inside several of them at the time of their demolition were KPA forces making a withdrawal rather than any attacking South Korean forces. As to such an idea of an underground invasion, the Allies found that laughable. Should they be going north, they would be going overland. There would be no secrecy in their approach! By the time February came to a close, not all of that previously-occupied South Korean soil which was sought to be liberated was retaken. There remained areas where the KPA held on. None of those were going to last for much longer though and all were cut-off either up close or from behind where the DMZ was in Allied hands. As it was further south, only by next month would all of this be finished. However, many of the men currently here in the very northern reaches of South Korea wouldn’t be taken part in that. Recall orders came for the 3rd Marine Division and two of the three US Army divisions (the 7th and 25th Infantry) as well. The 2nd Infantry Division would be staying in South Korea. Everyone else was being sent back to the United States. The Americans needed their men to fight now for their own soil. Wow! 300 updates already, and of such a consistently good quality too. It's really amazing. And I'm getting the feeling that the Korean War will very slowly and bloodily come to an end. |
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pjmidd
Seaman
Posts: 6
Likes: 5
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Post by pjmidd on Dec 2, 2018 21:45:51 GMT
(300)February 1985: Korea The Second Korean War had seen the utter horrors of modern war inflicted up both of the divided Koreas. This had included the use of nuclear and chemical weapons, again both sides of the DMZ inside the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea and the Republic of Korea too. The armies of each country had fought the other as well as those of their respective allies. Civilian casualties had occurred across the peninsula with those caught up in the conventional fighting as well as the attacks made using weapons of mass destruction. Refugees had fled internally in great numbers though few, very few, had escaped overseas. The regime in North Korea managed to maintain its extraordinary tight grip over the lives of its people and ran an effective total war despite everything thrown at them. In the South, the government was forced into a total war situation too and this saw quite a severe turn to authoritarianism domestically just to survive. Each side sought a victory: total victory to justify total war. By the end of February, one was looking likely to see that occur while the other was staring complete defeat right in the face. Far inside South Korea, the Soviets who turned up late and almost won the war were overcome and defeated. Their corps had long been cut off and they fast run out of everything to carry on the fight that they had to make on all sides. Rescue didn’t come, only continuing Allied attacks. They were especially exposed from above after running out of SAMs and also the majority of their anti-aircraft artillery. Aircraft lined-up above them to make attack runs in perfect order. There were huge American B-52s doing this as well as Australian F-111s, but also far smaller aircraft such as South Korean F-5s and Filipino OV-10s. North Korean forces had already received such attacks when they ran out of air cover though they had been quick to dig-in where they were and better protect themselves from above than the Soviets were. There was no time for the Soviets to learn, not in the middle of what they faced. The Allies were well-practised at this now. Following the worst of the air attacks, South Korean troops moved against the Soviets. They had a tough fight and it took time, yet they emerged victorious in the end. Thousands of prisoners were taken and marched away into captivity. These men would need to be cared for – given the basics as per international law – and treated far better than the South Koreans had treated their fellow Koreans from the KPA who’d they taken in the past and would take elsewhere through February. The Americans were intrigued by this and inquired as to why their allies would do so. They discovered that while certainly not official policy, the South Koreans treated the Soviets better because they hadn’t been responsible for all of the horrors of occupation inflicted upon civilians. The Soviets hadn’t been here for too long and spent every moment fighting. Foreigners they might be – instead of fellow Koreans – but they hadn’t done all that the soldiers of the KPA had. North Korean pockets of resistance, cut off forces like the Soviets were, remained spread down the western side of South Korean. There were many of these, all full of KPA soldiers who were done for. The South Koreans moved against these, crushing which were considered the weakest first. Those which sat on or aside transport routes were targeted the most. They had to dig the enemy out of its positions and this required a lot of explosives used. Engineers were busy. Many KPA soldiers were buried alive and crushed to death. Calls were made for men to surrender. Shots rang out in response. Therefore, more blasts occurred to eliminate that resistance where it was. Some of the enemy did emerge finally with hands raised. Often, there came the deaths of these men where either their own side or vengeful South Koreans killed such people. Orders from above told the South Korean Army to take and make use of men who surrendered, to get them to persuade others to surrender yet these were ignored by men on the ground when they finally had the enemy at their mercy. ‘Shot while trying to escape’ became the reason for the deaths of many KPA POWs. Five large pockets of resistance emerged left by the end of the month with all of the smaller ones finished off. The South Koreans began to ready themselves to overcome these starting next month. They had the troops to do it with the country fully-mobilised – teenage boys and old men among them – and the will to do it. These two would be South Korean-only fights. Their allies were elsewhere, closer to the DMZ along with more South Korean forces. In north-western South Korea, between the Han and the DMZ, a joint offensive took place. All sovereign South Korean soil there was moved against to be liberated too. It was quite the task. US Army forces and US Marines, joined by Commonwealth troops plus those from the Philippines too, undertook a combined offensive through occupied territory where they broke open KPA defences and then struck deep inside, going as far as the DMZ and reaching North Korean territory. The shattered pieces were then attacked. Gaps were left open for KPA retreats to be made so these could be pounced upon. This wasn’t something that often worked out but when it did, it really achieved much more when attacking the enemy on the move than when they were dug-in. Elsewhere, it was more of what had been seen to the south: the most-stubborn enemy which held on when facing an absolute battering with firepower of all forms unleashed against them. South Korean and American troops went into the DMZ. They found the strip of land occupied by KPA forces and engaged them everywhere that they found them. Movement was made across the area in a west-to-east direction. Crossings over into North Korea proper did occur though orders from above instructed those in the DMZ to focus upon securing a barrier against KPA movement either north-to-south or south-to-north rather than beginning an invasion of North Korea all on their own. Intelligence teams were busy during the time spent in the DMZ. Among their many tasks, they studied the tunnels beneath them from above which had been used as invasion routes during the invasion. Along those, the KPA had driven tanks as well as marched columns of men. Each was quite the feat of engineering. They were atop of them when the ground beneath their feet shook. Down inside those many tunnels, blasts occurred where KPA engineers blew them less they be used as invasion routes this time going north. Examination afterwards would find that inside several of them at the time of their demolition were KPA forces making a withdrawal rather than any attacking South Korean forces. As to such an idea of an underground invasion, the Allies found that laughable. Should they be going north, they would be going overland. There would be no secrecy in their approach! By the time February came to a close, not all of that previously-occupied South Korean soil which was sought to be liberated was retaken. There remained areas where the KPA held on. None of those were going to last for much longer though and all were cut-off either up close or from behind where the DMZ was in Allied hands. As it was further south, only by next month would all of this be finished. However, many of the men currently here in the very northern reaches of South Korea wouldn’t be taken part in that. Recall orders came for the 3rd Marine Division and two of the three US Army divisions (the 7th and 25th Infantry) as well. The 2nd Infantry Division would be staying in South Korea. Everyone else was being sent back to the United States. The Americans needed their men to fight now for their own soil. Wow! 300 updates already, and of such a consistently good quality too. It's really amazing. And I'm getting the feeling that the Korean War will very slowly and bloodily come to an end. Think its more, what a mess NK is in, lets see if it just falls apart before going in with a slow and methodical approach given how the NKA has defended. Its only the US troops that's being pulled out so plenty left given the NKA losses. |
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Post by eurowatch on Dec 2, 2018 23:09:36 GMT
While the future invasion of North Korea is going to be very bloody, I Wonder what is going to happen when the Soviet decide to send another corps there? The first time they did it was a major setback for the Allies and now three veteran divisions are being redeployed.
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Dan
Warrant Officer
Posts: 258
Likes: 185
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Post by Dan on Dec 3, 2018 6:06:55 GMT
While the future invasion of North Korea is going to be very bloody, I Wonder what is going to happen when the Soviet decide to send another corps there? The first time they did it was a major setback for the Allies and now three veteran divisions are being redeployed. The Soviets may have a fresh division to send, but is it any good? In terms of units not committed to China, America and now Europe, the Cat A units are mostly gone now with the Cat B making up the bulk of forces, they're down to calling up Cat C Units by now. |
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Post by eurowatch on Dec 3, 2018 7:35:33 GMT
While the future invasion of North Korea is going to be very bloody, I Wonder what is going to happen when the Soviet decide to send another corps there? The first time they did it was a major setback for the Allies and now three veteran divisions are being redeployed. The Soviets may have a fresh division to send, but is it any good? In terms of units not committed to China, America and now Europe, the Cat A units are mostly gone now with the Cat B making up the bulk of forces, they're down to calling up Cat C Units by now. Given the casulties the South Korean Army has suffered and the constant fighting it has been doing for the last year, I think it would have trouble even With cat B units. |
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
Posts: 7,608
Likes: 8,833
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Post by James G on Dec 3, 2018 20:31:58 GMT
(300)February 1985: Korea The Second Korean War had seen the utter horrors of modern war inflicted up both of the divided Koreas. This had included the use of nuclear and chemical weapons, again both sides of the DMZ inside the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea and the Republic of Korea too. The armies of each country had fought the other as well as those of their respective allies. Civilian casualties had occurred across the peninsula with those caught up in the conventional fighting as well as the attacks made using weapons of mass destruction. Refugees had fled internally in great numbers though few, very few, had escaped overseas. The regime in North Korea managed to maintain its extraordinary tight grip over the lives of its people and ran an effective total war despite everything thrown at them. In the South, the government was forced into a total war situation too and this saw quite a severe turn to authoritarianism domestically just to survive. Each side sought a victory: total victory to justify total war. By the end of February, one was looking likely to see that occur while the other was staring complete defeat right in the face. Far inside South Korea, the Soviets who turned up late and almost won the war were overcome and defeated. Their corps had long been cut off and they fast run out of everything to carry on the fight that they had to make on all sides. Rescue didn’t come, only continuing Allied attacks. They were especially exposed from above after running out of SAMs and also the majority of their anti-aircraft artillery. Aircraft lined-up above them to make attack runs in perfect order. There were huge American B-52s doing this as well as Australian F-111s, but also far smaller aircraft such as South Korean F-5s and Filipino OV-10s. North Korean forces had already received such attacks when they ran out of air cover though they had been quick to dig-in where they were and better protect themselves from above than the Soviets were. There was no time for the Soviets to learn, not in the middle of what they faced. The Allies were well-practised at this now. Following the worst of the air attacks, South Korean troops moved against the Soviets. They had a tough fight and it took time, yet they emerged victorious in the end. Thousands of prisoners were taken and marched away into captivity. These men would need to be cared for – given the basics as per international law – and treated far better than the South Koreans had treated their fellow Koreans from the KPA who’d they taken in the past and would take elsewhere through February. The Americans were intrigued by this and inquired as to why their allies would do so. They discovered that while certainly not official policy, the South Koreans treated the Soviets better because they hadn’t been responsible for all of the horrors of occupation inflicted upon civilians. The Soviets hadn’t been here for too long and spent every moment fighting. Foreigners they might be – instead of fellow Koreans – but they hadn’t done all that the soldiers of the KPA had. North Korean pockets of resistance, cut off forces like the Soviets were, remained spread down the western side of South Korean. There were many of these, all full of KPA soldiers who were done for. The South Koreans moved against these, crushing which were considered the weakest first. Those which sat on or aside transport routes were targeted the most. They had to dig the enemy out of its positions and this required a lot of explosives used. Engineers were busy. Many KPA soldiers were buried alive and crushed to death. Calls were made for men to surrender. Shots rang out in response. Therefore, more blasts occurred to eliminate that resistance where it was. Some of the enemy did emerge finally with hands raised. Often, there came the deaths of these men where either their own side or vengeful South Koreans killed such people. Orders from above told the South Korean Army to take and make use of men who surrendered, to get them to persuade others to surrender yet these were ignored by men on the ground when they finally had the enemy at their mercy. ‘Shot while trying to escape’ became the reason for the deaths of many KPA POWs. Five large pockets of resistance emerged left by the end of the month with all of the smaller ones finished off. The South Koreans began to ready themselves to overcome these starting next month. They had the troops to do it with the country fully-mobilised – teenage boys and old men among them – and the will to do it. These two would be South Korean-only fights. Their allies were elsewhere, closer to the DMZ along with more South Korean forces. In north-western South Korea, between the Han and the DMZ, a joint offensive took place. All sovereign South Korean soil there was moved against to be liberated too. It was quite the task. US Army forces and US Marines, joined by Commonwealth troops plus those from the Philippines too, undertook a combined offensive through occupied territory where they broke open KPA defences and then struck deep inside, going as far as the DMZ and reaching North Korean territory. The shattered pieces were then attacked. Gaps were left open for KPA retreats to be made so these could be pounced upon. This wasn’t something that often worked out but when it did, it really achieved much more when attacking the enemy on the move than when they were dug-in. Elsewhere, it was more of what had been seen to the south: the most-stubborn enemy which held on when facing an absolute battering with firepower of all forms unleashed against them. South Korean and American troops went into the DMZ. They found the strip of land occupied by KPA forces and engaged them everywhere that they found them. Movement was made across the area in a west-to-east direction. Crossings over into North Korea proper did occur though orders from above instructed those in the DMZ to focus upon securing a barrier against KPA movement either north-to-south or south-to-north rather than beginning an invasion of North Korea all on their own. Intelligence teams were busy during the time spent in the DMZ. Among their many tasks, they studied the tunnels beneath them from above which had been used as invasion routes during the invasion. Along those, the KPA had driven tanks as well as marched columns of men. Each was quite the feat of engineering. They were atop of them when the ground beneath their feet shook. Down inside those many tunnels, blasts occurred where KPA engineers blew them less they be used as invasion routes this time going north. Examination afterwards would find that inside several of them at the time of their demolition were KPA forces making a withdrawal rather than any attacking South Korean forces. As to such an idea of an underground invasion, the Allies found that laughable. Should they be going north, they would be going overland. There would be no secrecy in their approach! By the time February came to a close, not all of that previously-occupied South Korean soil which was sought to be liberated was retaken. There remained areas where the KPA held on. None of those were going to last for much longer though and all were cut-off either up close or from behind where the DMZ was in Allied hands. As it was further south, only by next month would all of this be finished. However, many of the men currently here in the very northern reaches of South Korea wouldn’t be taken part in that. Recall orders came for the 3rd Marine Division and two of the three US Army divisions (the 7th and 25th Infantry) as well. The 2nd Infantry Division would be staying in South Korea. Everyone else was being sent back to the United States. The Americans needed their men to fight now for their own soil. Great update on Korea as any other update you do James G . Can we now concude the 2nd Korean War has become a stalemate like the 1st Korean War. Thank you. Yes, that would be a reasonable thing. No invasion north, a drive on Pyongyang, is planned and the KPA is wiped out so it can't come south again. Wow! 300 updates already, and of such a consistently good quality too. It's really amazing. And I'm getting the feeling that the Korean War will very slowly and bloodily come to an end. Thank you. We should end up at 350-ish. That's it: a slow, bloody end. Think its more, what a mess NK is in, lets see if it just falls apart before going in with a slow and methodical approach given how the NKA has defended. Its only the US troops that's being pulled out so plenty left given the NKA losses. The regime is still holding. They are in a bad way but so too are the Allies to their south. It's not impossible that the regime falls. Going north would take a lot out of the Allies. The Americans will replaced by others but there will be a doubt over their quality. I don't have an endgame in mind for Korea yet so it could go with a collapse and an invasion to secure the remains but I am not sure. While the future invasion of North Korea is going to be very bloody, I Wonder what is going to happen when the Soviet decide to send another corps there? The first time they did it was a major setback for the Allies and now three veteran divisions are being redeployed. This is a big risk for the US. They tried to remove forces before and got hit hard by that Soviet force. As you say, it would happen again. The USSR has its armies in China and they aren't that far away. I'm not sure if I want to go down that route though. The Soviets may have a fresh division to send, but is it any good? In terms of units not committed to China, America and now Europe, the Cat A units are mostly gone now with the Cat B making up the bulk of forces, they're down to calling up Cat C Units by now. Whichever units they are, this time they would be met at the DMZ. A much further forward position and against an Allied army who could fully-focus on them alone. Given the casulties the South Korean Army has suffered and the constant fighting it has been doing for the last year, I think it would have trouble even With cat B units. They would indeed. SK has gutted all manpower reserves. Australian, NZ, Malaysian and Filipino troops are there now though. |
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
Posts: 7,608
Likes: 8,833
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Post by James G on Dec 3, 2018 20:33:16 GMT
Chapter Twenty–One – March
(301)
March 1985: The Alaskan Panhandle
The headquarters for the re-established 5th Marine Division had been set up at Camp Pendleton in California on October 1st 1984. A week later, it was transferred to Camp Smith in Hawaii. Southern California had become a war zone and while there remained initial entry training of new Marine Riflemen at the Marine Depot in San Diego, the 5th Marines needed real training to be undertaken away from the boot camp. At that point, when Los Angeles was at first under threat and then actually occupied, the Barstow area in the Mojave Desert was considered too to be too near to the frontlines. NAS Barbers Point in Hawaii had suffered from a nuclear attack in the war’s opening minutes yet elsewhere in the Fiftieth State, there was little wartime disruption. Space was available too to train the new division properly and so the 5th Marine left the mainland United States. There was always an intention to return though.
The war had seen the US Marines as a whole suffer a torrid time, especially early on. Reserves with the 4th Marine Division had been lost during the fighting in Texas when their division was taken apart in a thorough and devastating defeat. The 1st Marine Division had only just survived the Siege of San Diego but had had to retreat all the way there before they could finally achieve the first of (what would be later) many victories. The 2nd Marine Division had stayed in Florida and guarded the beaches there yet done nothing much in the eyes of outsiders. Across in South Korea, the 3rd Marine Division had fought battle after battle and took horrendous losses. There had been concern among some that the US Marines might end up being subsumed by the US Army due to wartime needs. Maintaining a separate service came with costs that could be saved during a war for national survival. The US Marines were fighting on land too, each time under US Army command, and not conducting amphibious landings. It would have been easier to fold them into the US Army. Such a thing would have been unthinkable before the war. The mythology of the US Marines along with their place in American military history was a matter of national culture. Moreover, Congress had been full of retired US Marines as well as long-term supporters who’d never let that happen… those were people who’d been killed though. The esprit de corps of those US Marines who kept fighting when all others would have folded, and then the victories which they begun to win, finally cut out all talk of a merger. They would remain a separate service.
The Cubans hadn’t been in Southern California for that long though the still-forming 5th Marines hadn’t returned to the mainland. They were established across Hawaii and everything was set up there for the division to be made ready for battle. Four regiments were formed up – the 13th (artillery), the 21st, the 27th and the 29th – along with all of the necessary supporting components. Men were never a problem when it came to getting enough of them; equipment and stores was an issue. This was especially true when it came to high-tech, big ticket items like tanks and new aircraft yet also it was lower down with ammunition stocks as well for the rifles and heavy guns. Morale remained good though, exceptionally high. The 5th Marines received recruits from Hawaii, American island possessions in the Pacific and also those from the mainland west of the Rockies. In peacetime, that dividing line for recruits to the US Marines ran down the Mississippi River yet with the progress of how the war was going on the mainland, that had shifted. Parris Island in South Carolina was where the new 6th Marine Division and a recreated 4th Marine Division too were both being formed-up and they took all of those other men who didn’t come to San Diego first before soon being flown out to Hawaii. New recruits arrived en masse in Hawaii and since October, thirty-one thousand had come. Not all were assigned directly to the 5th Marines as others joined supporting units and there were also those who were assigned as replacements for the dead & injured in South Korea. There were men who didn’t make the cut, those who were unsuitable for service as a US Marine, but the rest were turned into Leathernecks ready to be sent off to war.
Late February had seen the 5th Marines depart Hawaii aboard an amphibious task group. Some of those ships had helped put the 1st Marines into Mexico in previous months; others from that earlier mission were at that point on their way to the Korean Peninsula to help on the transfer of the 3rd Marines out of Asia. Escorted close-in by US Navy warships, and covered at a distance by the battle group around the carrier USS Enterprise, a course was first set for Vancouver Island. During the first days of March, extra equipment and supplies were transferred from Canada to the 5th Marines and the naval task group which had brought them closer to home. The ships moved onwards, now going north. The US Marines ‘hit the beach’ on March 10th.
Of beaches, there weren’t any to conduct an assault over up in the Alaskan Panhandle. That phrase was used by the Marine Riflemen and their officers to describe their landings over windswept, wild and rocky terrain that they found among the islands surrounded by fast-flowing channels of water. Landing ships and helicopters were used to make two simultaneous assaults into occupied territory. Soviet forces here on American soil had been left to wither on the vine over the winter after being turned back from their attempted invasion of Canada last year. They had held on, suffering in horrible conditions and without little outside support. Canadian military activity inland was restricted by the terrain there – the lack of communications links especially – but each time they had met with the Soviets, they had come away victorious. US Air Force F-4s (mainly Reserve and Air National Guard units), flying from several Canadian sites along the Pacific coast, had made many air strikes as well as fighter sweeps and given the occupiers no let up. Combined Joint Task Force Pacific NW included the Canadians, those aircraft, US Army Green Berets and now the US Marines.
Regimental Landing Team 27 landed around Sitka on Baranof Island. The port town and its airport faced the open ocean. US Marines were fast all over it and engaging Soviet forces they found there. Troops from a regiment of the 81st Guards Motorised Rifle Division were based here along with an aviation regiment of Sukhoi-17 fighter-bombers. They were in dire straits before RLT 27 arrived to rock their world. Within a day, most of the organised resistance from the Soviets was overcome. The port and airport were in American hands. A night-time counterattack by dismounted Soviet riflemen surprised the US Marines only by the foolishness of it. It was driven back and the Americans fought through the night and into the next morning as they chased down hidden survivors and eliminated the last of the Soviets as a fighting force. The battle honour ‘Sitka’ would join those of Iwo Jima and Vietnam. After the fighting was done, prisoners were marched to waiting ships ready to take them down to Vancouver. RLT 27 had no time to guard such POWs nor care for the ill-nourished and unwell men they found here. Sitka – known to history as New Archangel when owned by the Russian Empire; discussions had been made in Moscow of seeing it revert to that name when it, like all of Alaska, was ‘returned’ to the Soviet Union – was only a staging post for later operations for them when acting as part of the whole of the 5th Marines.
Across at Ketchikan, RLT 21 made their landing. Their target was another combined port and airport though one which might as well have been inland. Ketchikan was set far back from open water and nowhere near as exposed as Sitka. Force Recon Marines had been preceded by Navy SEALs in making sure that they way ahead was open for the mass of landing craft and helicopters which inserted the 21st Marine Regiment. Soviet forces here consisted of what was – on paper anyway – the best Soviet troops in the Alaskan Panhandle: the 345th Guards Parachute Regiment. This unit of Soviet Airborne had taken part in the initial invasion and marched all the way deep into Canada and nearly reached Whitehorse before the British and Canadians threw them back to where they came. They had escaped from the very top of the Alaskan Panhandle and been assigned to Ketchikan in the south. Promised reinforcement, even transfer back home, had never come. Allied intelligence summaries on the regiment had overestimated its remaining fighting capabilities. These ‘elite’ troops were no longer that. RLT 21 arrived ready for a major fight; RLT 29 was standing by right behind them. Air attacks were made in support and there was a lot of naval gunfire. The US Marines stormed in, hyped up to fight an opponent they were told would defend Ketchikan like tigers. Baby seals, the Marine Riflemen would call them afterwards: not tigers. Ketchikan was easier than Sitka. It was gobbled up and POWs taken in large numbers. RTL 21’s medical teams were overwhelmed not with combat casualties but attending to ill Soviet paratroopers. These men were full of disease and ‘looking like concentration camp victims’ in the words of the commanding American officer. The winter had really taken its toll on these men but so too was the fact that they’d long been abandoned.
Two easy fights had taken place where the 5th Marines arrived in the Alaskan Panhandle. They had seized both Sitka on the coast and Ketchikan ‘inland’ with ease and opened up the way in. There were further Soviet forces further ahead with Juneau having a large concentration of them but also more at places such as Petersburg and Wrangell. There was more of that motor rifle division (its tank regiment was in China though) and also what was left of an airmobile brigade as well. Supporting troops were all over the place where they were involved in internal lines of communication: something rather significant in such a region where there was a serious lack of roads for land connections.
The rest of the 5th Marines moved ashore. The two seized entrance points were joined by smaller sites where there had been no enemy forces present and RLT 29 was used to take control. Prince of Wales Island (a huge piece of land) saw the biggest supporting presence where the US Marines secured their rear base area. Civilians welcomed them though told tales of the horrors which they had suffered under occupation. Men of military age were missing – most marched off by the Soviets from their homes; others had joined resistance groups – yet so too were many young women: the fate of the latter was of grave concern. There was a dearth of food and medicine, plus fuel, and the US Marines found themselves involved in providing immediate humanitarian aid to the remaining population. This had been anticipated though not in scale. Canadian assistance was offered and grabbed at in this. Like POWs ahead of them, civilians were soon shipped out towards Canada where they too would have their lives saved. Staying where they were, even with the US Marines here, would have seen many eventually lose their lives.
For the rest of the month, the 5th Marines prepared to move onwards. They were going to go straight for Juneau it was decided. The mission orders had been for Petersburg and Wrangell to be focused on first before the bigger state capital yet this had changed. Enemy weakness but also worries over the fate of the people there led this. Juneau would be seeing the US Marines arrive early next month.
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There are better places for using the British army and I bloody hope their staying under national command rather than being put under EDA control. If the EDA sacrificed them for its own political aims there will be hell to pay, no matter how spineless the British government is.
