lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 30, 2018 20:54:46 GMT
They'd be fighting the Penguin Army of Antarctica soon enough. What about Africa, is South Africa still fighting the South African Border War. |
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Post by eurowatch on Nov 30, 2018 21:28:08 GMT
Are Spanish and Portuguese troops also going to join the fighting in West Germany?
I also have the feeling that sooner rather then later Greece is going to experience another Battle of Crete as the EDA moves to destroy what is left of the Soviet naval forces in the Med.
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archangel
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Post by archangel on Nov 30, 2018 23:01:44 GMT
McCain and Kerry will be excellent US presidents in TTL's future.
The Soviets are overextending themselves. If the Warsaw Pact countries rebel, when things go south for the soviets, the Soviets might lose bad.
There might a lot of prosecutions after the war for spreading soviet counter-information.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 30, 2018 23:50:08 GMT
Well it was going OK until that last bit.  There are better places for using the British army and I bloody hope their staying under national command rather than being put under EDA control. If the EDA sacrificed them for its own political aims there will be hell to pay, no matter how spineless the British government is. The EDA have been lucky so far that the Soviets have also done a 180 on their previous behaviour but I can understand the panic in a lot of western Europe about the conflict. If the conflict starts to escalate the Soviets will really have to take the gloves off and if the EDA is trying to get back on friendly terms with the allies they really need to do it quickly, while the former is still vulnerable. A US nuclear guarentee, while probably difficult for Glenn to agree is a damned sight more reliable than a French one. |
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amir
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Post by amir on Dec 1, 2018 3:54:36 GMT
James- awesome work!
The surrender of the French Berlin brigade has me wondering about the overall POW experience. We’ve seen both sides exploiting high value prisoners (Putin, etc), but what about the mass of prisoners and detainees of low to no value? We’ve seen the Soviets backhauling some and using others for labor, but what about the Americans- I can only expect that the ABC forces will be challenged to provide rations and care for their prisoners as well given the disruption caused by the nuclear attacks and conventional fighting.
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Dan
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Post by Dan on Dec 1, 2018 10:10:05 GMT
I suspect the British deployment is very likely to be into it's NATO assigned positions - it simply makes the most sense.
The troops will have trained in the area, already have contingencies in place and will be familiar with the local Landwehr and Bundeswehr units, who will also be familiar with the Brits.
Politically there may be some rankles, but on a man to man, unit to unit even Regiment to Regiment basis there will be an understanding that the political bollocks has nothing to do with them and they're there to do a job.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 1, 2018 11:00:42 GMT
I suspect the British deployment is very likely to be into it's NATO assigned positions - it simply makes the most sense. The troops will have trained in the area, already have contingencies in place and will be familiar with the local Landwehr and Bundeswehr units, who will also be familiar with the Brits. Politically there may be some rankles, but on a man to man, unit to unit even Regiment to Regiment basis there will be an understanding that the political bollocks has nothing to do with them and they're there to do a job.
Yes but I suspect there will be some resentment and fear that again British forces will be used as body shields for the EDA if under the latter's command. Plus their role there was basically defensive not offensive, which is a different matter politically more than tactically.
Also there is the political issue that Britain doing this does rather suggest its deserting its allies, who still have territory occupied to help the EDA's expansion, which could look bad among the allies. Not to mention if, as would be almost certain in RL it goes tits-up with a nuclear response against the EDA we could lose a lot of troops.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 1, 2018 11:02:24 GMT
James- awesome work! The surrender of the French Berlin brigade has me wondering about the overall POW experience. We’ve seen both sides exploiting high value prisoners (Putin, etc), but what about the mass of prisoners and detainees of low to no value? We’ve seen the Soviets backhauling some and using others for labor, but what about the Americans- I can only expect that the ABC forces will be challenged to provide rations and care for their prisoners as well given the disruption caused by the nuclear attacks and conventional fighting.
At this point Putin isn't really high value. He's just another KGB thug and party hack. I don't think there have been that many high value prisoners on either side, or at least none come to mind as being mentioned.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 1, 2018 11:08:20 GMT
McCain and Kerry will be excellent US presidents in TTL's future. The Soviets are overextending themselves. If the Warsaw Pact countries rebel, when things go south for the soviets, the Soviets might lose bad. There might a lot of prosecutions after the war for spreading soviet counter-information.
Agree on the two future Presidents. The Soviets have massively over-extended but I'm doubtful about a WP revolt yet. If the EDA had replied to a Soviet attack, even the limited one in Sweden it would be a different matter but their clearly made themselves the aggressors here, not just in Sweden but also in the Med so I would expect that a lot of people in E Germany and Czechoslovakia especially would be a bit cautious about their western neighbours. The Soviets will definitely push this point hard and make no mention they were planning to attack in Sweden and just got beaten to the punch. A lot depends on when Moscow gets over the shock of being attacked themselves rather than the attackers and what they do then? Do they stay partially paralysed or do they act strongly against the EDA? Or is this possibly the trigger for a coup against the current idiot in Moscow?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 1, 2018 11:14:06 GMT
Are Spanish and Portuguese troops also going to join the fighting in West Germany? I also have the feeling that sooner rather then later Greece is going to experience another Battle of Crete as the EDA moves to destroy what is left of the Soviet naval forces in the Med.
I doubt it as their still got lands to liberate and those are more important strategically given the threats to their SLOC and homelands.
An attack on Crete would be pushing it as long as the Soviets have bases in Greece and Turkey, especially since they would no longer have surprise on their side. The Soviet navy has already been pretty much destroyed but you would basically be talking about the Italian fleet and what of the French fleet operates in the Med rather than the north so it could be costly for them and quite possibly not successful. Also this assumes that Moscow stays mainly passive over the conflict.
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Post by eurowatch on Dec 1, 2018 11:31:13 GMT
I suspect the British deployment is very likely to be into it's NATO assigned positions - it simply makes the most sense. The troops will have trained in the area, already have contingencies in place and will be familiar with the local Landwehr and Bundeswehr units, who will also be familiar with the Brits. Politically there may be some rankles, but on a man to man, unit to unit even Regiment to Regiment basis there will be an understanding that the political bollocks has nothing to do with them and they're there to do a job.
Yes but I suspect there will be some resentment and fear that again British forces will be used as body shields for the EDA if under the latter's command. Plus their role there was basically defensive not offensive, which is a different matter politically more than tactically.
Also there is the political issue that Britain doing this does rather suggest its deserting its allies, who still have territory occupied to help the EDA's expansion, which could look bad among the allies. Not to mention if, as would be almost certain in RL it goes tits-up with a nuclear response against the EDA we could lose a lot of troops.
I think the Americans Will understand that deploying the British second army in Germany is much more useful and far less Dangerous then risking a dash across the Atlantic. They haven't complained before, why would they start complaining now? |
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Post by lukedalton on Dec 1, 2018 15:52:25 GMT
McCain and Kerry will be excellent US presidents in TTL's future. The Soviets are overextending themselves. If the Warsaw Pact countries rebel, when things go south for the soviets, the Soviets might lose bad. There might a lot of prosecutions after the war for spreading soviet counter-information.
Agree on the two future Presidents. The Soviets have massively over-extended but I'm doubtful about a WP revolt yet. If the EDA had replied to a Soviet attack, even the limited one in Sweden it would be a different matter but their clearly made themselves the aggressors here, not just in Sweden but also in the Med so I would expect that a lot of people in E Germany and Czechoslovakia especially would be a bit cautious about their western neighbours. The Soviets will definitely push this point hard and make no mention they were planning to attack in Sweden and just got beaten to the punch. A lot depends on when Moscow gets over the shock of being attacked themselves rather than the attackers and what they do then? Do they stay partially paralysed or do they act strongly against the EDA? Or is this possibly the trigger for a coup against the current idiot in Moscow?
East Europe nations had seen troops sent in NA, their economy greatly hit by the war, the mobilization and the political situation with West Europe and frankly the food situation will not be great if the harvest in Ukraine has not be good...so the internal situation will be tense but kept in check by the fear of Moscow intervention; but one must also considering that everybody know that if this war for the glory of Moscow will expand the only one that will really suffer will be them as they will be much more likely target and in any case their troops will be assigned to operation: Meatshield. So regardless on who's is the effective aggressor and frankly at this stage is more like splitting the hair the various nation of the Warsaw Pact (East Germany and Bulgaria included) will not be very happy and the population very worried and not very forthcoming in giving everything to help the Soviet war effort.
Yes but I suspect there will be some resentment and fear that again British forces will be used as body shields for the EDA if under the latter's command. Plus their role there was basically defensive not offensive, which is a different matter politically more than tactically.
Also there is the political issue that Britain doing this does rather suggest its deserting its allies, who still have territory occupied to help the EDA's expansion, which could look bad among the allies. Not to mention if, as would be almost certain in RL it goes tits-up with a nuclear response against the EDA we could lose a lot of troops.
Sorry, when happened that the EDA nations had used the British soldiers as shield? And if things goes nuclear in Germany, well instead to lose immediately that troops in the continent the UK will lose an half an hour later in the British Island...not a great difference as any nuclear conflict starting in central europe will escalate very quickly, expecially with the French having not enough bomb to go against only military target; and even if by some miracle the UK is spared, there will be enough fall out to not make this scenario look like a good thing.
The travel between the British Island and the continental USA is 'relatevely' long and very dangerous, basically you know how many they left but not how many (if any) arrive and frankly for the strategic position of Great Britain stopping the Red in Germany is vital, otherwise if they arrive in range for launch bombardment raid even fromt the south the nation will fall...and no, getting troops there only when the red are almost on the objective is not very smart because not only you risk to not make in time but you also have little strategic deep risking Dunkirk all over again
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 1, 2018 17:58:49 GMT
Agree on the two future Presidents. The Soviets have massively over-extended but I'm doubtful about a WP revolt yet. If the EDA had replied to a Soviet attack, even the limited one in Sweden it would be a different matter but their clearly made themselves the aggressors here, not just in Sweden but also in the Med so I would expect that a lot of people in E Germany and Czechoslovakia especially would be a bit cautious about their western neighbours. The Soviets will definitely push this point hard and make no mention they were planning to attack in Sweden and just got beaten to the punch. A lot depends on when Moscow gets over the shock of being attacked themselves rather than the attackers and what they do then? Do they stay partially paralysed or do they act strongly against the EDA? Or is this possibly the trigger for a coup against the current idiot in Moscow?
East Europe nations had seen troops sent in NA, their economy greatly hit by the war, the mobilization and the political situation with West Europe and frankly the food situation will not be great if the harvest in Ukraine has not be good...so the internal situation will be tense but kept in check by the fear of Moscow intervention; but one must also considering that everybody know that if this war for the glory of Moscow will expand the only one that will really suffer will be them as they will be much more likely target and in any case their troops will be assigned to operation: Meatshield. So regardless on who's is the effective aggressor and frankly at this stage is more like splitting the hair the various nation of the Warsaw Pact (East Germany and Bulgaria included) will not be very happy and the population very worried and not very forthcoming in giving everything to help the Soviet war effort.
Yes but I suspect there will be some resentment and fear that again British forces will be used as body shields for the EDA if under the latter's command. Plus their role there was basically defensive not offensive, which is a different matter politically more than tactically.
Also there is the political issue that Britain doing this does rather suggest its deserting its allies, who still have territory occupied to help the EDA's expansion, which could look bad among the allies. Not to mention if, as would be almost certain in RL it goes tits-up with a nuclear response against the EDA we could lose a lot of troops.
Sorry, when happened that the EDA nations had used the British soldiers as shield? And if things goes nuclear in Germany, well instead to lose immediately that troops in the continent the UK will lose an half an hour later in the British Island...not a great difference as any nuclear conflict starting in central europe will escalate very quickly, expecially with the French having not enough bomb to go against only military target; and even if by some miracle the UK is spared, there will be enough fall out to not make this scenario look like a good thing.
The travel between the British Island and the continental USA is 'relatevely' long and very dangerous, basically you know how many they left but not how many (if any) arrive and frankly for the strategic position of Great Britain stopping the Red in Germany is vital, otherwise if they arrive in range for launch bombardment raid even fromt the south the nation will fall...and no, getting troops there only when the red are almost on the objective is not very smart because not only you risk to not make in time but you also have little strategic deep risking Dunkirk all over again
That's what their done when their relying on the British and other allies to do the fighting for them after they ducked out of their treaty commitments. They never bothered getting involved when they could have made a big difference and their actions now could make things a lot worse. As it is the Soviets aren't attacking the EDA - albeit that's partly because the EDA pre-emptived their decision to fight in Sweden but that means there's no threat in W Germany at the moment. Even assuming if they did attack, with conventional weapons they could get anywhere near the channel which seems unlikely. If the EDA does trigger a localised nuclear exchange on the continent I would rather British troops be nowhere near.
In the real world, especially given the example set by the agreement earlier in the conflict only an idiot would attack a nuclear power with nuclear weapons so its unlikely that if the Soviets did react to the EDA threat with a nuclear strike it would escalate very far.
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James G
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Post by James G on Dec 1, 2018 20:02:35 GMT
They'd be fighting the Penguin Army of Antarctica soon enough. What about Africa, is South Africa still fighting the South African Border War. Things are very different in southern Africa. All that Cuban and Soviet attention which went there in OTL went to Central America instead. I haven't thought about how exactly everything went. So I'm not sure. Are Spanish and Portuguese troops also going to join the fighting in West Germany? I also have the feeling that sooner rather then later Greece is going to experience another Battle of Crete as the EDA moves to destroy what is left of the Soviet naval forces in the Med. Portuguese, no. There is the possibility of the Spanish though, now you said it. If they do, they will be with the British. Greece just got beat up by the Turks and will not want to see that. They might not have a choice though. McCain and Kerry will be excellent US presidents in TTL's future. The Soviets are overextending themselves. If the Warsaw Pact countries rebel, when things go south for the soviets, the Soviets might lose bad. There might a lot of prosecutions after the war for spreading soviet counter-information. Glad someone noticed that! They overextended themselves from the first day but starting a fight with Sweden was always going to led to a conflict with Western Europe. This is classic Hitler-level multi-front wars against everyone. Well it was going OK until that last bit. There are better places for using the British army and I bloody hope their staying under national command rather than being put under EDA control. If the EDA sacrificed them for its own political aims there will be hell to pay, no matter how spineless the British government is. The EDA have been lucky so far that the Soviets have also done a 180 on their previous behaviour but I can understand the panic in a lot of western Europe about the conflict. If the conflict starts to escalate the Soviets will really have to take the gloves off and if the EDA is trying to get back on friendly terms with the allies they really need to do it quickly, while the former is still vulnerable. A US nuclear guarentee, while probably difficult for Glenn to agree is a damned sight more reliable than a French one. As I have said before, I consider mainland Europe to be the best place for the British Army. They have a multi-corps army group (an Irish brigade included) and will be under sole UK command. When the EDA treaty was signed, there were British representatives there in an unofficial-but-official role. A situation like this was foreseen, just like a need for that Purloin plan. If the EDA did act against the British, there is the mood to do something in return yet none of that is in the open. It is also very unlikely. The Soviets doing a 180? Only with the US did they open with nukes. And in return they lost their second city and had a swath of missile silos hit with ground-bursts - bad news too. Attacking Spain, China and Sweden each time has seen opening attacks with conventional means. The European strike was planned to be conventional too. Hell no would the US give that. The French are far more reliable for their partners: they never pulled out their troops and left them defenceless like the US did. James- awesome work! The surrender of the French Berlin brigade has me wondering about the overall POW experience. We’ve seen both sides exploiting high value prisoners (Putin, etc), but what about the mass of prisoners and detainees of low to no value? We’ve seen the Soviets backhauling some and using others for labor, but what about the Americans- I can only expect that the ABC forces will be challenged to provide rations and care for their prisoners as well given the disruption caused by the nuclear attacks and conventional fighting. Thank you. That is a good point in terms of something I hadn't thought about. Let me see how I can factor that in. You're correct: it will be a big deal. I suspect the British deployment is very likely to be into it's NATO assigned positions - it simply makes the most sense. The troops will have trained in the area, already have contingencies in place and will be familiar with the local Landwehr and Bundeswehr units, who will also be familiar with the Brits. Politically there may be some rankles, but on a man to man, unit to unit even Regiment to Regiment basis there will be an understanding that the political bollocks has nothing to do with them and they're there to do a job. That makes perfect sense. All those connections are there and this isn't unfamiliar territory, yes. The NATO Northern Army Group became the West German Northern Army (similarly, the French First Army took over CENTAG) so command-wise things will be different but that will be the best place to go and things can be worked out once on the North German Plain.
Yes but I suspect there will be some resentment and fear that again British forces will be used as body shields for the EDA if under the latter's command. Plus their role there was basically defensive not offensive, which is a different matter politically more than tactically.
Also there is the political issue that Britain doing this does rather suggest its deserting its allies, who still have territory occupied to help the EDA's expansion, which could look bad among the allies. Not to mention if, as would be almost certain in RL it goes tits-up with a nuclear response against the EDA we could lose a lot of troops.
Body shields/ How? Why? When before? I don't understand this at all. Britain isn't abandoning its allies at all. It will have the full support of the rest of the alliance to do this. I think the Americans Will understand that deploying the British second army in Germany is much more useful and far less Dangerous then risking a dash across the Atlantic. They haven't complained before, why would they start complaining now? Spot on with all of that. Fighting the Soviets, anywhere possible, helps the Americans & Canadians & Norwegians & Portuguese & Spanish and everyone else including the UK mainland too.
That's what their done when their relying on the British and other allies to do the fighting for them after they ducked out of their treaty commitments. They never bothered getting involved when they could have made a big difference and their actions now could make things a lot worse. As it is the Soviets aren't attacking the EDA - albeit that's partly because the EDA pre-emptived their decision to fight in Sweden but that means there's no threat in W Germany at the moment. Even assuming if they did attack, with conventional weapons they could get anywhere near the channel which seems unlikely. If the EDA does trigger a localised nuclear exchange on the continent I would rather British troops be nowhere near.
In the real world, especially given the example set by the agreement earlier in the conflict only an idiot would attack a nuclear power with nuclear weapons so its unlikely that if the Soviets did react to the EDA threat with a nuclear strike it would escalate very far.
I'm sorry, but I really don't agree with this at all. It's my story and there are things I forget to write but I have in my head, but this shouldn't be a reading of the situation. It doesn't work. I really don't think you are seeing things the way I write them. We'll put that all on me as an author and not explaining things right. However, with the greatest of respect, I'd much prefer that you didn't keep arguing with everyone in the thread about everything. I have asked before. I'm sorry to say, and I mean no offense, but it seems that when it comes to the subject of Europe, you are just arguing with others based on current events rather than the story. It has long gone on too much. Please stop. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Dec 1, 2018 20:04:52 GMT
(299)
February 1985: China
The Soviet nuclear targeting plot in China, the two waves of city-busting attacks, had been examined carefully by outsiders – the Americans especially – to provide ‘meaning’ to all of it. There was a reason why some cities were targeted and others weren’t. The second wave of strikes took the greatest interest, those made in retaliation to the Chinese obliteration of Vladivostok. The half a dozen cities hit in November 1984 had clearly been selected beforehand for geo-political reasons whereas those four wiped off the face of the earth in October appeared to have been hit on impulse. There were those that the Americans regarded as which should have been on the November firing plot and were left off. Nanchang could be excused because that was where the Chinese government under Hu had moved to but Nanjing (a historic Chinese capital) and others spread southwards away from the radioactive ruin of Shanghai down the coast opposite Taiwan had all be pointedly left alone. There had been that attempt to get Taiwan onside by the Soviets and that explained much of that. A further belief that the Americans had was that Moscow wished to see a post-war China have both a population and industrial base for its own exploitation in the victory they were chasing. Such reading of the situation by the Americans was entirely correct. These were Soviet intentions. In Moscow they still had that aim to see a surviving China once the war was over, one under Soviet tutelage. The defiance had to be finished off first though.
Nanjing sat alongside the Yangtze River and past that waterway were Nanchang and the Coastal Provinces. Soviet armies moved in that direction starting mid-February. The Chinese had the last of their large organised forces in the way and the mission orders ran for those to be defeated. It was to be the biggest battle of the war, one for the history books in terms of huge forces involved and the ferocity of the fight. The Battle of the Yangtze River it would be deemed afterwards.
It would be a battle which those history book would show the Soviets as the victors. They took Nanjing, went over the Yangtze and carried onwards as the month came to a close. The PLA was incapable of stopping them. They bled the Soviets greatly but this wasn’t enough to stop that steamroller which couldn’t be stopped. A trio of large pockets of cut-off Chinese troopers were formed south of the river, each with tens of thousands of PLA men caught inside them. One of the pockets was forced back towards the East China Sea and in the direction of what once was Shanghai; the other two couldn’t move and stayed where they were in the countryside. Soviet follow-on forces moved against them and began using chemical weapons in-number to further weaken what was left of them. The intention was to take each apart next month when that weakening had taken effect.
Soviet forward spearheads pushed through the huge gaps ripped open once south of the Yangtze. Hangzhou first before Ningbo and Wenzhou were out ahead along with the sea as the Soviets moved southeast towards Zhejiang Province. Other Soviet armies sent their lead units into the southern parts of Anhui: a province which the Yangtze ran through the middle of. These drove in a southwestern direction now and Nanchang was beyond them. That city sat behind the Poyang Lake – a formidable obstacle – and was a long way off but within reach beforehand of Soviet air strikes ahead of the tanks following. With his armies driving on Nanchang, and the last of the PLA’s heavier forces defeated, Vorotnikov waited for Hu to begin the process of arranging for talks to commence. China was beaten. There was no hope left for Hu now but to allow for diplomacy. There was division within the upper levels of leadership in Moscow yet none in Vorotnikov’s mind. The China War was now finally won. It had to be.
Britain had secured support from both Brunei and Singapore to help with the Hong Kong refugee crisis. The two smaller nations agreed to provide aid to stop the British colonial possession from ending up like Macau. Their assistance would come with a price to be paid later, a price which differed between each yet generally covered trade access and military support in the post-war world. Britain looked likely to come out worse off from each agreement. If the situation hadn’t been so urgent then London would never have agreed. It was though and so the deals had been struck. No one else could help. The United States was in no position to do so and neither were more traditional allies such as Australia and New Zealand either. Abandoning Hong Kong and letting it possibly fall under Taiwanese influence – they took over Hainan before the end of the month, now overtly gobbling up bits of China – was not to be done. Thus, these two other countries were turned to. Singapore was going to provide the manpower while Brunei provided support, especially immediate financial support.
Singapore had troops in South Korea and those were some of its best units in terms of training & equipment. More stayed at home, those of a lesser calibre. A brigade-sized force went to Hong Kong. They were flown there on commercial airliners in the colours of Cathay Pacific & Singapore Airlines (the smaller Royal Brunei Airlines aided in this) and arrived with light weapons. These were soldiers and thus came equipped for a fight. Overall, civilian refugees fleeing from China and seeking safety in Hong Kong in overwhelming numbers were helpless yet among them there were armed people as well: many defectors from the PLA. To come without weapons would have been foolish, especially since British forces in Hong Kong had already many times engaged armed opponents inside and on the edges of the territory. Medical and engineering personnel arrived too. What refugees were already inside needed to be attended to alongside the effort to patrol the frontier. Brunei funding was used to secure purchases of food and medical supplies to further support the needy inside Hong Kong: those who lived there and those who had arrived. It was money from the Sultan of Brunei which also paid all of the associated costs with the military deployment too. Nothing came cheap. This was certainly apparent when other nations realised that they were in a position to make a profit from Britain’s plight when it came to Hong Kong.
Singaporean troops were soon alongside the British 26th Gurkha Brigade providing the ‘defence’ of Hong Kong. The New Territories in the north and the long land border there with the Chinese mainland needed particular attention. However, the security and future of Hong Kong was under threat from all other directions as well where boats and at times even light aircraft had been making landings depositing people. It was a huge task to not just patrol the frontiers (the coastline was extensive) but inland as well. In all honestly, to stop every single entry made, five – maybe ten – times as many men from Singapore might have been needed. What came was a start though, enough to take the pressure off. The British understood that some refugees were going to get through. What they didn’t want to see was a horde of them pour in, all in urgent need and all taking what they wanted to try to ease their plight but instead bringing everything down around them. There was sympathy for such people who wanted to flee from their war-torn nation… but the wellbeing of the colony and those who lived here came first. Now, with outside support having finally arrived, even from another country rather than Britain itself, there was some hope in Hong Kong that they wouldn’t go the way of Macau. Millions of people in China remained on the move and a lot were still outside Hong Kong though. The whole situation wasn’t resolved. It was just a case of a stopgap measure and an easing of pressure. To rectify the whole situation, something else would have to be done. What that was, no one in neither Hong Kong nor London knew.
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There are better places for using the British army and I bloody hope their staying under national command rather than being put under EDA control. If the EDA sacrificed them for its own political aims there will be hell to pay, no matter how spineless the British government is.