stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 12, 2019 10:29:09 GMT
About the Hamilton Spectator's '2,000 dead' opinion piece, doesn't pretty much everyone--or at least, sane Allied member--basically agree with this idea? I'm not sure what makes this article's author's particular point of view so unique compared to that of most people. Ending the war isn't really a unique opinion per se. I was trying to present it as maybe someone advocating an immidiate withdrawal from Germany/a settlement with Hitler rather than a fight to the finish.
As Zyobot said its a pretty stupid idea, especially since the war is nearly won. Even up-timers who knew very little history before the transition should know both how murderous the Nazi regime is and that it can be trusted to go back on any agreement as soon as it thinks it favourable. In fact some of the security establishment, knowing that there are idiots who like Nazi ideas, might be taking a look to see whether its just sheer stupidity behind the editorial or something more sinister. 
I was assuming the point was that a peaceful 2018 Canada was finding such a number of dead, that the downtime nations would see as pretty much tiny on the national level to highlight the cultural differences.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 12, 2019 10:42:49 GMT
Ending the war isn't really a unique opinion per se. I was trying to present it as maybe someone advocating an immidiate withdrawal from Germany/a settlement with Hitler rather than a fight to the finish. As Zyobot said its a pretty stupid idea, especially since the war is nearly won. Even up-timers who knew very little history before the transition should know both how murderous the Nazi regime is and that it can be trusted to go back on any agreement as soon as it thinks it favourable. In fact some of the security establishment, knowing that there are idiots who like Nazi ideas, might be taking a look to see whether its just sheer stupidity behind the editorial or something more sinister. I was assuming the point was that a peaceful 2018 Canada was finding such a number of dead, that the downtime nations would see as pretty much tiny on the national level to highlight the cultural differences.
Wonder if we get a Germany divided as OTL, but now the Canadians will take over the position of the United States and also no divided Berlin, will we also see a West Polish Republic who will take over the role of West Germany of OTL. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 12, 2019 11:22:21 GMT
As Zyobot said its a pretty stupid idea, especially since the war is nearly won. Even up-timers who knew very little history before the transition should know both how murderous the Nazi regime is and that it can be trusted to go back on any agreement as soon as it thinks it favourable. In fact some of the security establishment, knowing that there are idiots who like Nazi ideas, might be taking a look to see whether its just sheer stupidity behind the editorial or something more sinister. I was assuming the point was that a peaceful 2018 Canada was finding such a number of dead, that the downtime nations would see as pretty much tiny on the national level to highlight the cultural differences.
Wonder if we get a Germany divided as OTL, but now the Canadians will take over the position of the United States and also no divided Berlin, will we also see a West Polish Republic who will take over the role of West Germany of OTL.
That's one option and fairly probable. It depends on if Stalin tries something or the western powers decide to ignore the Soviet occupation of western Poland and the Baltics. I suspect they will rather than face yet another, possibly even larger fight. However they could be rather confident after the relatively easy defeat of the Nazis. Also it might depend on what lessons their learnt from Canada about the WWII Canada is familiar with. Suspect there's not going to be another war in Europe but could be wrong.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 12, 2019 12:16:33 GMT
Wonder if we get a Germany divided as OTL, but now the Canadians will take over the position of the United States and also no divided Berlin, will we also see a West Polish Republic who will take over the role of West Germany of OTL. That's one option and fairly probable. It depends on if Stalin tries something or the western powers decide to ignore the Soviet occupation of western Poland and the Baltics. I suspect they will rather than face yet another, possibly even larger fight. However they could be rather confident after the relatively easy defeat of the Nazis. Also it might depend on what lessons their learnt from Canada about the WWII Canada is familiar with. Suspect there's not going to be another war in Europe but could be wrong.
I think Stalin might do a East Prussia invasion in the pretext of security of what ever reason he will claim. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 12, 2019 17:40:55 GMT
That's one option and fairly probable. It depends on if Stalin tries something or the western powers decide to ignore the Soviet occupation of western Poland and the Baltics. I suspect they will rather than face yet another, possibly even larger fight. However they could be rather confident after the relatively easy defeat of the Nazis. Also it might depend on what lessons their learnt from Canada about the WWII Canada is familiar with. Suspect there's not going to be another war in Europe but could be wrong.
I think Stalin might do a East Prussia invasion in the pretext of security of what ever reason he will claim. I wonder, what must Uncle Joe and the rest of the Kremlin know about Canada’s firepower? Because if they’re wise, they’ll take that factor into account when deciding whether to proceed with invasion and occupation of East Prussia or wherever else the uptimers are likely to react to the takeover of. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 12, 2019 17:43:05 GMT
I think Stalin might do a East Prussia invasion in the pretext of security of what ever reason he will claim. I wonder, what must Uncle Joe and the rest of the Kremlin know about Canada’s firepower? Because if they’re wise, they’ll take that factor into account when deciding whether to proceed with invasion and occupation of East Prussia or wherever else the uptimers are likely to react to the takeover of. I bet Stalin has ordered Beria to learn everything he can from the Canadian uptimers. |
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Post by Panzerlied on Nov 13, 2019 1:07:41 GMT
I wonder, what must Uncle Joe and the rest of the Kremlin know about Canada’s firepower? Because if they’re wise, they’ll take that factor into account when deciding whether to proceed with invasion and occupation of East Prussia or wherever else the uptimers are likely to react to the takeover of. I bet Stalin has ordered Beria to learn everything he can from the Canadian uptimers. Only to have the agents caught out in the open, with the Canadian border patrol throwing their asses back to Moscow |
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Post by lordroel on Nov 13, 2019 4:45:51 GMT
I bet Stalin has ordered Beria to learn everything he can from the Canadian uptimers. Only to have the agents caught out in the open, with the Canadian border patrol throwing their asses back to Moscow Was thinking more in reporting back to Moscow about what weapons the Canadians are using in combat in Germany and then trying to figure out a counter to them if possible. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 13, 2019 11:12:41 GMT
That's one option and fairly probable. It depends on if Stalin tries something or the western powers decide to ignore the Soviet occupation of western Poland and the Baltics. I suspect they will rather than face yet another, possibly even larger fight. However they could be rather confident after the relatively easy defeat of the Nazis. Also it might depend on what lessons their learnt from Canada about the WWII Canada is familiar with. Suspect there's not going to be another war in Europe but could be wrong.
I think Stalin might do a East Prussia invasion in the pretext of security of what ever reason he will claim.
Its one of the things I've been half expecting. It would seek to put the USSR on the 'allied' side as Mussolini is also trying and possibly get some more territory to claim. Sounds like he's making suggestions of a big war with Japan but that could be a feint although have to see what Redrobin decides.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 13, 2019 11:19:39 GMT
I bet Stalin has ordered Beria to learn everything he can from the Canadian uptimers. Only to have the agents caught out in the open, with the Canadian border patrol throwing their asses back to Moscow
I suspect the best options would be to try and find up-timers who would gather info for them, for whatever reason. Whether ideological, fiscal, blackmail or whatever. Although how easy that would be I don't know. I assume by now that the USSR has some sort of diplomatic representation in Ottawa but its probably being watched very closely. Some of the up-time Russian diplomats may be willing to work for Stalin, out of misplaced loyalty but how much would they be trusted? However they might give linked to up time info sources. Mind you a huge amount of info would be gathered simply by joining a local public library! This latter applying to other down-time nations as well, including Britain and France.
Stalin will probably be most concerned with weapons but in the longer run other aspects of technology could well be at least as important. Also he's likely to want information on what happened in his 'future' from the world Canada came from. Which could be very bad for a lot of his subordinates as probably has been mentioned already.
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Post by lordroel on Nov 13, 2019 12:20:24 GMT
Only to have the agents caught out in the open, with the Canadian border patrol throwing their asses back to Moscow I suspect the best options would be to try and find up-timers who would gather info for them, for whatever reason. Whether ideological, fiscal, blackmail or whatever. Although how easy that would be I don't know. I assume by now that the USSR has some sort of diplomatic representation in Ottawa but its probably being watched very closely. Some of the up-time Russian diplomats may be willing to work for Stalin, out of misplaced loyalty but how much would they be trusted? However they might give linked to up time info sources. Mind you a huge amount of info would be gathered simply by joining a local public library! This latter applying to other down-time nations as well, including Britain and France.
Stalin will probably be most concerned with weapons but in the longer run other aspects of technology could well be at least as important. Also he's likely to want information on what happened in his 'future' from the world Canada came from. Which could be very bad for a lot of his subordinates as probably has been mentioned already.
I think Beria must be wondering how many people he can kill who betrayed him in OTL |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 15, 2019 16:48:50 GMT
I suspect the best options would be to try and find up-timers who would gather info for them, for whatever reason. Whether ideological, fiscal, blackmail or whatever. Although how easy that would be I don't know. I assume by now that the USSR has some sort of diplomatic representation in Ottawa but its probably being watched very closely. Some of the up-time Russian diplomats may be willing to work for Stalin, out of misplaced loyalty but how much would they be trusted? However they might give linked to up time info sources. Mind you a huge amount of info would be gathered simply by joining a local public library! This latter applying to other down-time nations as well, including Britain and France.
Stalin will probably be most concerned with weapons but in the longer run other aspects of technology could well be at least as important. Also he's likely to want information on what happened in his 'future' from the world Canada came from. Which could be very bad for a lot of his subordinates as probably has been mentioned already.
I think Beria must be wondering how many people he can kill who betrayed him in OTL Possibly. I'd also speculate that he's planning out an escape like the other members of Joe Stalin's inner circle. At this point, they're all likely to find out that they let their boss die IOTL. And knowing the Man of Steel, he'll launch another bloody purge that sweeps up innocent and guilty alike. |
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 17, 2019 23:17:50 GMT
It may have been covered earlier in this thread and I’m just unaware of it, but how must Canada be managing technology transfers and sharing scientific knowledge with the rest of the world right now? For instance, are there any plans to set up internet infrastructure in W/Allied lands sometime soon, or set up flatscreen TVs and the like in the White House?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 18, 2019 11:23:32 GMT
It may have been covered earlier in this thread and I’m just unaware of it, but how must Canada be managing technology transfers and sharing scientific knowledge with the rest of the world right now? For instance, are there any plans to set up internet infrastructure in W/Allied lands sometime soon, or set up flatscreen TVs and the like in the White House?
Probably wrong but I don't think anything like that has been mentioned in detail. Would modern TVs be that useful without a broadcasting beam of similar character, unless you mean its for picking up signs from Ottawa, probably by cable. Some stand alone high powered computers delivered to key figures, political and industrial possibly with a brief intro on how to use them and regular updates by DVD say could be very useful. Chiefly for what degree of technological advice and future history that Ottawa thinks appropriate. Would be deliverable to both the US and UK and France as well as possibly some other countries, such as Australia, Belgium, the Netherlands and others as liberated. Politically would be tricky if they send such a package to say Neru in India.
Such a system would show the down-timers how far they have to go to catch up with Canada as well as be very useful for them. Things like 44-45 equipment design, possibly early transistors and computers to give them a leg up without being a step too far. Might want to restrict nuclear knowledge - if only to also restrict undesirables getting access [yes I am thinking of Stalin especially - and possibly personal details such as FDR's early death - although perhaps with some warnings on his health - or Churchill's 45 election defeat.
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Post by redrobin65 on Feb 4, 2020 21:25:27 GMT
East Prussia, April 13th-16th, 1941
The German forces in Poland and East Prussia were still relatively strong. Hitler was paranoid about the possibility of the Red Army moving west, so had made sure that the forces in the east were as strong as possible. Even in April of 1941, the Heer, SS, and Kriegsmarine had eight divisions in Poland and three in East Prussia. Token elements were transferred to the West, but the majority of the troops remained where they were. Hindsight has shown that Stalin had decided not to provoke the Allies and his armies stayed behind their borders, but Hitler did not know that.
Even with German military leaders begging for reinforcements, the Fuhrer remained obstinate until the beginning of April, when the Allies were tearing through central Germany. An attempt was made to move an infantry division from Poland to the west, but that was thwarted by air attacks that inflicted heavy casualties. Thus, the German troops in the East stayed put.
The Allies were beginning to get bogged down in and around Berlin by April 12th. Military leaders were concerned that reinforcements from Poland and East Prussia would come west (despite railways in that area being shut down by Allied air attacks). They were also nearly at the end of their supply lines due to the rapid advance. It was feared that German troops in the east could consolidate and make Allied efforts to push into Poland quite bloody. What could be done to tie down those troops when the Allies needed to take Berlin and reach the Oder River?
Luckily for the Allies, there were still troops available. The Canadian 8th Airmobile Division was an army-level formation under the control of the Canadian First Army, and had not seen any action at all. Their commander, a Major General from the NDHQ in Ottawa, was eager for his formation to see action. What could they do, though? The light brigades in the 8th Division lacked the same firepower as the mechanized and armoured brigades in the rest of the Canadian Army, and sending them into the same situations as everyone else was considered foolish. The Canadian government was very casualty-averse, which, while viewed with ridicule in Britain and France (who had taken about 300,000 casualties between them), was a major factor in Canada’s reluctance to send soldiers to die in needless operations.
Well, the commander of the 8th Division repeatedly lobbied the staff of the Canadian First Army to perform an airborne landing behind enemy lines. His reasoning was that a force inserted in the German rear area could distract the enemy forces and prevent them from reinforcing their units around Berlin. On the surface, the idea of a landing to distract the Germans around Berlin was readily accepted, but the Major General did not want this. He wanted to land in East Prussia. This idea was received with skepticism, but the 8th Division’s commander insisted that his units could tie down German forces and get in the area to deter the Red Army if it were to ever move west. Though uneasy, the commander of the First Canadian Army relented, a move which would be heavily criticized in the following years.
The 8th Division did not have anywhere near the aircraft required for a mass airmobile assault, so aircraft that dropped the 7th Airmobile Division into Denmark were borrowed. Operation KESTREL was launched on April 13th. It began with airstrikes around Konigsberg, Tilsit, and Friedland, followed by the landing of the 8th Division’s four brigades. The 27th Light Brigade arrived at Tilsit via helicopter, the 28th Airborne and 29th Light dropped in to the East and West of Konigsberg respectively, and the 30th Light Brigade at Heigenbiel. The idea was for the division to link up and form a line along the coast that could resist any German counterattacks. This plan relied on the aerial suppression of the German troops in the area to keep them occupied. It probably would have worked if four of the five RCAF attack squadrons assigned to help the 8th Division hadn’t been redirected to concentrate on the Berlin area; Allied troops there were not advancing as quickly as initially hoped. German troops had been bombed, yes, but not severely enough to completely hamper their combat effectiveness.
In addition to this, the airborne landing had followed the initial air attacks too late to achieve complete surprise. A crucial thirty-minute gap gave the Germans time to recover. While they had no clue that there would be paratroopers and a helicopter assault, they had time to collect themselves and form up into small units. Despite the operation’s shortcomings, all four brigades were able to land without too much trouble. Konigsberg was taken quickly, but the process of linking up would prove to be more difficult.
There were three German divisions in East Prussia- the 165th and 240th Infantry along with the 20th SS Division. The 240th had token elements in Konigsberg that were pushed out by the Canadians, but the 20th SS and 165th Infantry were in the Eastern and Western parts of the province respectively. This caused problems for some Canadian units; when the 27th Light Brigade-Group tried to move out of Tilsit, its path was blocked by elements of the 20th SS Division. Repeated Canadian attacks did not go very far, and the 27th Brigade took serious losses. 1st Battalion, The Middlesex and Huron Regiment took 200 casualties on the first day alone. The 27th Brigade was ordered by the commander of the 8th Division (who had set himself up in Konigsberg) to march west to link up with the rest of the paratroopers. The Colonel in charge of the 27th Brigade thought that this was ridiculous, but tried nonetheless. The SS wasn’t sitting idle, and moved around to try and flank 27CLBG.
Canadian officers and NCOs planning brigade-level movements in East Prussia.
Over in Heigenbiel, the 30th Brigade had managed to link up with the rest of the division and was digging in, ready to fight the Germans. Really, it was only the 27th Brigade that was facing significant resistance…for now, anyway. Hitler was outraged at the airborne landings, and the fact that the so-called “bastion of the Teutonic Order” was under threat infuriated him. He ordered that parts of the German forces in Poland move north to fight the Canadians. It was pointed out that this would denude Poland of German troops and limit potential reinforcement of other areas. Still what is done is done, and Operation KESTREL would face a difficult test while the Battle of Berlin raged.
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