Soviet/NATO invasion and nuclear targets across the world thread

[lordroel]

Mar 22, 2018 15:47:51 GMT stevep said:

Mar 21, 2018 17:19:33 GMT lordroel said:

You always could move to Scotland, both the 1970s and 1980s map have it clear of Soviet strikes.

  Don't try telling any Scots that Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Inverness aren't Scottish.  At least not without without ambulance staff in attendance.   That's what's shown on your last map and on the 1970 map of Scotland there are quite a number of targets listed. - You may have been mislead by your initial maps don't show more than the border areas?

  Plus, even if there were no attacks on Scotland, apart from any fall-out problems the new Scottish government might insist on any refugees taking up Scottish citizenship! - Just in case anyone is unclear that is a joke.  I do have Scottish friends, although I'm avoiding talking to them after the last rugby international.

I will take that i consideration steve the next time i visit Scotland, but there are some areas in Scotland that are not in areas of Soviet nuclear targets.

[stevep]

Mar 21, 2018 17:52:54 GMT lordroel said:

Mar 21, 2018 17:42:39 GMT James G said:

I've read them both. They are like Clancy's Red Storm Rising, especially the second one called the Untold Story.
Venlo is in the first I believe as that is where the Soviets are stopped. They cross the Rhine north of the Ruhr and charge south hoping to trap much of NATOs armies east of the Rhine. There between the Ruhr and the Maastrict area comes the final stop. There is a massive B-52 strike at low-level with high-explosive bombs on Soviet troops.
The books are good though dated somewhat now.
Clancy (RIP) wrote better works. Michael Palmer's The Third World War actually tells the story of a world war with only minor mentions of the slugfest in Germany. Red Army is another fantastic book... where the Soviets actually win!
These are the inspirations for much of what I write.

I have two books by John Wingate called Carrier and Frigate, its describes a week of gruelling raids and attacks involving choppers, sea harriers and the aircraft-carrier 'Furious', culminating in World War III.

  IIRC I've read at least one of them.  Names definitely ring a bell but over the years I must have read several thousand books.  [Not as much now with the computer, plus the eyes not being what they were but quite common for me to read 3-4 books a week.]

[stevep]

Mar 22, 2018 15:15:59 GMT lordroel said:

Mar 22, 2018 9:41:06 GMT James G said:

Interesting way of dealing with those coastal forts. I've read before how well protected they were and their commanding positions. Nothing beats a nuke though. To open up the Baltic Exits to shipping, a war plan would have to deal with mines, fast attack boats with missiles and land based & truck-launched Harpoon antiship missiles though. Plus a heck of a lot of NATO tactical air power... THEN the Royal Navy!

Here is another thing i found, sorry for the small picture.

The planned attack on Denmark was for a long time structured around the same premise: primarily Polish but also DDR forces would form the advance guard in an attack on Jutland. An attack on Sjælland would be implemented primarily by Polish forces supported by DDR and (later) other Soviet forces. This simplified sketch from the beginning of the 1960s shows two nuclear bombs being dropped on the Danish cities of Roskilde (near the capital Copenhagen) and Esbjerg (on the west coast of Jutland). In the event of war, NATO reinforcements would supplement the Danish forces via Esbjerg. It was expected that these two nuclear bombs dropped in the first days of the war would put a stop to Danish resistance. If this was not the case, the Warsaw Pact plan in the following days was to drop a large number of tactical nuclear bombs all over Denmark, on Jutland between 27 and 52 bombs on the first day and between 16 and 32 on the second. Such an attack would cause incalculable damage to the civilian population. It is a wonder how the invaders themselves imagined they would avoid nuclear irradiation (probably something between an unrealistic belief that they would be protected from exposure and a lack of respect for their own soldiers’ lives). The ship symbol indicates a landing on Sjælland.

  Ye Gods!   Even for the Soviets that's got to be overkill.  Between 45 and 86 bombs on Denmark alone!!  Considering this was in the 60's as well before miniturization and greater accuracy meant that smaller warheads become more effective so I suspect many of those would probably be at least the size of Little Boy and Fat Man in megatonnage.  I think the Soviets would need amphibious units as not sure how much of Denmark would still be there.

[lordroel]

Mar 22, 2018 15:58:29 GMT stevep said:

Mar 22, 2018 15:15:59 GMT lordroel said:

Here is another thing i found, sorry for the small picture.

The planned attack on Denmark was for a long time structured around the same premise: primarily Polish but also DDR forces would form the advance guard in an attack on Jutland. An attack on Sjælland would be implemented primarily by Polish forces supported by DDR and (later) other Soviet forces. This simplified sketch from the beginning of the 1960s shows two nuclear bombs being dropped on the Danish cities of Roskilde (near the capital Copenhagen) and Esbjerg (on the west coast of Jutland). In the event of war, NATO reinforcements would supplement the Danish forces via Esbjerg. It was expected that these two nuclear bombs dropped in the first days of the war would put a stop to Danish resistance. If this was not the case, the Warsaw Pact plan in the following days was to drop a large number of tactical nuclear bombs all over Denmark, on Jutland between 27 and 52 bombs on the first day and between 16 and 32 on the second. Such an attack would cause incalculable damage to the civilian population. It is a wonder how the invaders themselves imagined they would avoid nuclear irradiation (probably something between an unrealistic belief that they would be protected from exposure and a lack of respect for their own soldiers’ lives). The ship symbol indicates a landing on Sjælland.

  Ye Gods!   Even for the Soviets that's got to be overkill.  Between 45 and 86 bombs on Denmark alone!!  Considering this was in the 60's as well before miniturization and greater accuracy meant that smaller warheads become more effective so I suspect many of those would probably be at least the size of Little Boy and Fat Man in megatonnage.  I think the Soviets would need amphibious units as not sure how much of Denmark would still be there.

Well here is more.



The map illustrates an amphibious operation against the Danish islands Sjaelland (upper left corner) and Bornholm (right), southern Sweden (top).

When the Warsaw Pact was formed in 1955, Poland wanted to continue to directly command its armed forces independently and was allowed, within the Pact, to retain this mission against Denmark within the framework of the offensive strategy. In the operational plan, which was established in 1961, it was the Polish armed forces that were to form the vanguard. The forces Zhukov singled out in Berlin are, however, part of the second echelon, which was to follow close on the heels of the Polish units. Although they trusted the Communist elite they put in power, the Russians did not have great confidence in the repressed people, which Zhukov remarked upon in his speech, that the Poles were regarded as requiring a controlling power. Later, the Soviet Union was to rely more on the East Germans than the Poles. For a while in the 1980s, the GDR even took over in planning the Polish mission against Denmark. When I accompanied the General Director of the Civil Defence on a visit to Poland at the beginning of the 1970s, the usual joke among the elite we met was also about Russians who had made fools of themselves. Jaruzelski restored what was to prove to be a treacherous system. The Solidarity Crisis was actually to be the beginning of the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact and the end of the Cold War.

According to Piotrowski, in the plan (OP 61) the Polish First and Second Armies would attack Hamburg and Schleswig-Holstein. In two or three days, they would break up the Jutland army corps and reach the Elbe and the Danish-German border. In the second phase of the operation, they would reach the Rhine and Moselle over the plains of Lower Saxony and Holland. It was the Polish Fourth Army from the Warsaw area that, somewhat reinforced, would succeed in the actual attack on Denmark. It was more poorly equipped than the forward-deployed armies and its most important reinforcement at the beginning of the 1960s was the deployment of nuclear charges against air bases and population targets, including Hamburg and Copenhagen.

The attack on Jutland would be facilitated through Russian airborne troops taking the Kiel Canal at an early stage. East German units would take part in landing on the islands. The Soviet Baltic Fleet would open up the Danish sounds and the East German Navy the Kiel Canal. The landing areas on the Danish islands were to be attacked first using highly volatile chemical weapons. In the event of nuclear war, the Poles themselves anticipated losses of up to 50% in the units deployed during the first few days.

[James G]

Mar 21, 2018 17:52:54 GMT lordroel said:

Mar 21, 2018 17:42:39 GMT James G said:

I've read them both. They are like Clancy's Red Storm Rising, especially the second one called the Untold Story.
Venlo is in the first I believe as that is where the Soviets are stopped. They cross the Rhine north of the Ruhr and charge south hoping to trap much of NATOs armies east of the Rhine. There between the Ruhr and the Maastrict area comes the final stop. There is a massive B-52 strike at low-level with high-explosive bombs on Soviet troops.
The books are good though dated somewhat now.
Clancy (RIP) wrote better works. Michael Palmer's The Third World War actually tells the story of a world war with only minor mentions of the slugfest in Germany. Red Army is another fantastic book... where the Soviets actually win!
These are the inspirations for much of what I write.

I have two books by John Wingate called Carrier and Frigate, its describes a week of gruelling raids and attacks involving choppers, sea harriers and the aircraft-carrier 'Furious', culminating in World War III.

I have never heard of these. I will look into them!

[lordroel]

Mar 22, 2018 19:58:08 GMT James G said:

Mar 21, 2018 17:52:54 GMT lordroel said:

I have two books by John Wingate called Carrier and Frigate, its describes a week of gruelling raids and attacks involving choppers, sea harriers and the aircraft-carrier 'Furious', culminating in World War III.

I have never heard of these. I will look into them!

First comes Frigate, then Carrier and the last one if i am correct is called submarine.

[Deleted]

[lordroel]

Mar 23, 2018 19:02:09 GMT @vonhitchofen said:

A that series, i know it, the British version of the American The Day After.

[Deleted]

Certainly the most terrifying of the post-apocalyptic '80s drama - far grimmer than The War Game, or The Day After

I'm surprised a kid's Threads annual wasn't in every Christmas stocking in 1984 Britain.

[lordroel]

Mar 23, 2018 19:39:49 GMT @vonhitchofen said:

Certainly the most terrifying of the post-apocalyptic '80s drama - far grimmer than The War Game, or The Day After

I'm surprised a kid's Threads annual wasn't in every Christmas stocking in 1984 Britain.

You want to give children nightmares.

[Deleted]

I have to ask - what were the contents of that annual?

[James G]

Mar 27, 2018 6:05:34 GMT @theavalonproject said:

I have to ask - what were the contents of that annual?

I'd have to guess that whatever they were, they were unsettling.

[Deleted]

Mar 27, 2018 6:05:34 GMT @theavalonproject said:

I have to ask - what were the contents of that annual?

Nothing. It never existed, unsurprisingly.

[raunchel]

I'm getting a house in Brixworth. It's just between all the big boomie stuff, and there is no way that anyone would get hurt there. According to the map.

[lordroel]

Mar 28, 2018 18:12:23 GMT raunchel said:

I'm getting a house in Brixworth. It's just between all the big boomie stuff, and there is no way that anyone would get hurt there. According to the map.

Well that is nice to hear, but then again we do not know if the 2018 targets would be different compared to the 1970 and 1980s map that are posted here.