2008 Pacific States To 1958

[Zyobot]

Though this is more of a secondary issue at the moment, I wonder what downtimers would make of not only full-color, realistic-sounding movies and TV shows, but also the notion of being able to record and time-jump at one's leisure. Doing so on the go would likely seem even crazier to them. And that's without getting into the various wonders (and horrors) afforded by the albeit gap-laden internet the uptimers have brought with them, up to and including online video platforms like YouTube. And the portable devices they watch these on--namely smartphones and personal computers that have far more computing power than NASA's state-of-the-art computers from 1969--also ought to be too much to process at first. Even a throughout-the-decade flip phone would look straight out of sci-fi to downtimer observers.

Further, what might the '58 people make of Silicon Valley at this time? It may be hampered by the loss of uptimer trade partners, yes, but I think that downtimer D.C.'s reaction to it remains exploration-worthy nonetheless.

[stevep]

Jul 20, 2019 0:16:28 GMT Zyobot said:

Though this is more of a secondary issue at the moment, I wonder what downtimers would make of not only full-color, realistic-sounding movies and TV shows, but also the notion of being able to record and time-jump at one's leisure. Doing so on the go would likely seem even crazier to them. And that's without getting into the various wonders (and horrors) afforded by the albeit gap-laden internet the uptimers have brought with them, up to and including online video platforms like YouTube. And the portable devices they watch these on--namely smartphones and personal computers that have far more computing power than NASA's state-of-the-art computers from 1969--also ought to be too much to process at first. Even a throughout-the-decade flip phone would look straight out of sci-fi to downtimer observers.

Further, what might the '58 people make of Silicon Valley at this time? It may be hampered by the loss of uptimer trade partners, yes, but I think that downtimer D.C.'s reaction to it remains exploration-worthy nonetheless.

  Depending on how much of the up-time internet is still available as a lot of locations and links along with presumably all the satellites have been lost?  However its going to be a huge shock to the down-timers as you say.  Even without porn and the dark net I suspect a lot of the downtime world's reaction would be to ban or at least greatly restrict it.  Possibly even, not realising the size of the task calling for some sort of censorship in which any page/image/site would need to be approved before it could go on-line.  Totally impractical but the down-timers would take a while to realise that.

  The other thing that might happen, especially but not only with the communist world, is that many down-timers will argue for their country having its 'own' internet under national control so there is likely to be attempts to set up multiple internets although how likely that is to succeed I don't know.

[Zyobot]

Jul 20, 2019 10:07:21 GMT stevep said:

Jul 20, 2019 0:16:28 GMT Zyobot said:

Though this is more of a secondary issue at the moment, I wonder what downtimers would make of not only full-color, realistic-sounding movies and TV shows, but also the notion of being able to record and time-jump at one's leisure. Doing so on the go would likely seem even crazier to them. And that's without getting into the various wonders (and horrors) afforded by the albeit gap-laden internet the uptimers have brought with them, up to and including online video platforms like YouTube. And the portable devices they watch these on--namely smartphones and personal computers that have far more computing power than NASA's state-of-the-art computers from 1969--also ought to be too much to process at first. Even a throughout-the-decade flip phone would look straight out of sci-fi to downtimer observers.

Further, what might the '58 people make of Silicon Valley at this time? It may be hampered by the loss of uptimer trade partners, yes, but I think that downtimer D.C.'s reaction to it remains exploration-worthy nonetheless.

  Depending on how much of the up-time internet is still available as a lot of locations and links along with presumably all the satellites have been lost?  However its going to be a huge shock to the down-timers as you say.  Even without porn and the dark net I suspect a lot of the downtime world's reaction would be to ban or at least greatly restrict it.  Possibly even, not realising the size of the task calling for some sort of censorship in which any page/image/site would need to be approved before it could go on-line.  Totally impractical but the down-timers would take a while to realise that.

  The other thing that might happen, especially but not only with the communist world, is that many down-timers will argue for their country having its 'own' internet under national control so there is likely to be attempts to set up multiple internets although how likely that is to succeed I don't know.

Mm'kay. If that's how they decide to approach the matter of importing 2008-era internet, then I don't imagine that they'd like the idea of a decentralized one.

Still, might there be a constitutionality issue with proposals to require government approval before web content can go online? Similar may be the case with broadcasting both now and then, but the internet is a whole different beast entirely.

I'd also hope that the downtimer authorities at least have the sense to realize that the Pacific States won't allow them to come in and moderate their media and communications, not to mention a whole host of other stuff they've brought along in the ISOT. So perhaps the best bet is to let the uptimers self-regulate, lest they get pissed off.

[stevep]

Jul 20, 2019 13:50:05 GMT Zyobot said:

Jul 20, 2019 10:07:21 GMT stevep said:

  Depending on how much of the up-time internet is still available as a lot of locations and links along with presumably all the satellites have been lost?  However its going to be a huge shock to the down-timers as you say.  Even without porn and the dark net I suspect a lot of the downtime world's reaction would be to ban or at least greatly restrict it.  Possibly even, not realising the size of the task calling for some sort of censorship in which any page/image/site would need to be approved before it could go on-line.  Totally impractical but the down-timers would take a while to realise that.

  The other thing that might happen, especially but not only with the communist world, is that many down-timers will argue for their country having its 'own' internet under national control so there is likely to be attempts to set up multiple internets although how likely that is to succeed I don't know.

Mm'kay. If that's how they decide to approach the matter of importing 2008-era internet, then I don't imagine that they'd like the idea of a decentralized one.

Still, might there be a constitutionality issue with proposals to require government approval before web content can go online? Similar may be the case with broadcasting both now and then, but the internet is a whole different beast entirely.

I'd also hope that the downtimer authorities at least have the sense to realize that the Pacific States won't allow them to come in and moderate their media and communications, not to mention a whole host of other stuff they've brought along in the ISOT. So perhaps the best bet is to let the uptimers self-regulate, lest they get pissed off.

  You raise a good point about the constitutional situation in the 1958 US which I hadn't considered.  I was just thinking about how concerned people in 1958, both in the US and elsewhere would be about a lot of the contents and abilities of the internet, especially once they start to fully understand it.  Suspect many of them would see it at least as threatening as the Soviet Union.

  I would hope that 58 US would realise how disastrous it would be trying to intervene directly in the 08 US.  However thinking of who was the Head of the FBI at that time I'm not so sure.   Suspect they would be wise enough realise they had to stay out of direct involvement in the 08 US but given the circumstances I'm not totally sure.  Could be that even if ordered not to Hoover might try something although any agents he sends in are likely to stick out like very sore thumbs.

[Zyobot]

Jul 20, 2019 18:39:03 GMT stevep said:

Jul 20, 2019 13:50:05 GMT Zyobot said:

Mm'kay. If that's how they decide to approach the matter of importing 2008-era internet, then I don't imagine that they'd like the idea of a decentralized one.

Still, might there be a constitutionality issue with proposals to require government approval before web content can go online? Similar may be the case with broadcasting both now and then, but the internet is a whole different beast entirely.

I'd also hope that the downtimer authorities at least have the sense to realize that the Pacific States won't allow them to come in and moderate their media and communications, not to mention a whole host of other stuff they've brought along in the ISOT. So perhaps the best bet is to let the uptimers self-regulate, lest they get pissed off.

  You raise a good point about the constitutional situation in the 1958 US which I hadn't considered.  I was just thinking about how concerned people in 1958, both in the US and elsewhere would be about a lot of the contents and abilities of the internet, especially once they start to fully understand it.  Suspect many of them would see it at least as threatening as the Soviet Union.

  I would hope that 58 US would realise how disastrous it would be trying to intervene directly in the 08 US.  However thinking of who was the Head of the FBI at that time I'm not so sure.   Suspect they would be wise enough realise they had to stay out of direct involvement in the 08 US but given the circumstances I'm not totally sure.  Could be that even if ordered not to Hoover might try something although any agents he sends in are likely to stick out like very sore thumbs.

If I remember correctly, I once read that J. Edgar Hoover was able to intimidate a rather long line of sitting Presidents, meaning that I don't know whether Ike can politely tell him to stay out of uptimer business for the time being. Even so, you can bet that the Pacific States would be rather...displeased to catch downtimer spies operating within their boundaries, and will press '58 America for a proper explanation.

Plus, when all is said and done, what can Washington do about the 2008 states apart from fume at their loss of control? They might try sanctions, but then the uptimers would likely counter with sanctions of their own (i.e. no technology transference unless their demands are met). And dear God, do I hope that full-blown military force is off the table.

[stevep]

Jul 20, 2019 18:52:06 GMT Zyobot said:

Jul 20, 2019 18:39:03 GMT stevep said:

  You raise a good point about the constitutional situation in the 1958 US which I hadn't considered.  I was just thinking about how concerned people in 1958, both in the US and elsewhere would be about a lot of the contents and abilities of the internet, especially once they start to fully understand it.  Suspect many of them would see it at least as threatening as the Soviet Union.

  I would hope that 58 US would realise how disastrous it would be trying to intervene directly in the 08 US.  However thinking of who was the Head of the FBI at that time I'm not so sure.   Suspect they would be wise enough realise they had to stay out of direct involvement in the 08 US but given the circumstances I'm not totally sure.  Could be that even if ordered not to Hoover might try something although any agents he sends in are likely to stick out like very sore thumbs.

If I remember correctly, I once read that J. Edgar Hoover was able to intimidate a rather long line of sitting Presidents, meaning that I don't know whether Ike can politely tell him to stay out of uptimer business for the time being. Even so, you can bet that the Pacific States would be rather...displeased to catch downtimer spies operating within their boundaries, and will press '58 America for a proper explanation.

Plus, when all is said and done, what can Washington do about the 2008 states apart from fume at their loss of control? They might try sanctions, but then the uptimers would likely counter with sanctions of their own (i.e. no technology transference unless their demands are met). And dear God, do I hope that full-blown military force is off the table.

  Well after the USCW didn't they modify the constitution to remove any doubts about the ability to secede? Although I hope all bar a few hot-heads will accept this is a totally different matter.  Its going to be a nasty shock losing the entire West Coast however but it shouldn't get that bad.

[Zyobot]

Jul 20, 2019 23:40:39 GMT stevep said:

Jul 20, 2019 18:52:06 GMT Zyobot said:

If I remember correctly, I once read that J. Edgar Hoover was able to intimidate a rather long line of sitting Presidents, meaning that I don't know whether Ike can politely tell him to stay out of uptimer business for the time being. Even so, you can bet that the Pacific States would be rather...displeased to catch downtimer spies operating within their boundaries, and will press '58 America for a proper explanation.

Plus, when all is said and done, what can Washington do about the 2008 states apart from fume at their loss of control? They might try sanctions, but then the uptimers would likely counter with sanctions of their own (i.e. no technology transference unless their demands are met). And dear God, do I hope that full-blown military force is off the table.

  Well after the USCW didn't they modify the constitution to remove any doubts about the ability to secede? Although I hope all bar a few hot-heads will accept this is a totally different matter.  Its going to be a nasty shock losing the entire West Coast however but it shouldn't get that bad.

I don't know so much about the details, but the American federal government certainly strengthened under Honest Abe and retained greater jurisdiction over states' affairs than in the years before the Civil War. Although, I recall once hearing that even this was a mild increase in D.C.'s authority compared to the expansion of government in the 20th Century. But that discussion's for another time and place.

That said, even with it made clear that secession is no longer an option for dissatisfied areas of the Union, an ISOT that replaces the '58 Pacific States with their light years-ahead 2008 counterparts is without precedent to the point of potentially being an exception to the rule. However, maybe the uptimers won't go that far and might instead opt for an arrangement similar to a (far stronger and less easily cowed) Hong Kong and mainland China.

[stevep]

Jul 21, 2019 16:29:45 GMT Zyobot said:

Jul 20, 2019 23:40:39 GMT stevep said:

  Well after the USCW didn't they modify the constitution to remove any doubts about the ability to secede? Although I hope all bar a few hot-heads will accept this is a totally different matter.  Its going to be a nasty shock losing the entire West Coast however but it shouldn't get that bad.

I don't know so much about the details, but the American federal government certainly strengthened under Honest Abe and retained greater jurisdiction over states' affairs than in the years before the Civil War. Although, I recall once hearing that even this was a mild increase in D.C.'s authority compared to the expansion of government in the 20th Century. But that discussion's for another time and place.

That said, even with it made clear that secession is no longer an option for dissatisfied areas of the Union, an ISOT that replaces the '58 Pacific States with their light years-ahead 2008 counterparts is without precedent to the point of potentially being an exception to the rule. However, maybe the uptimers won't go that far and might instead opt for an arrangement similar to a (far stronger and less easily cowed) Hong Kong and mainland China.

  Definitely agree that the more rational elements in both groups will want to get some way of working together and ultimately they will at least be friends.  However there's going to be a lot of rocky ground to get passed 1st with all the social and cultural differences even without what hot-heads on both sides are likely to stir up.

[Zyobot]

I wonder what the downtimers would make of President Dubya, as he’s have to be introduced to the rest of the world eventually. Although clearly conservative by our 21st Century standards, he’d be a radical social liberal to the rest of the country at this time. On economic issues, however, I’m unsure where he’d align on the political spectrum relative to them (because to my knowledge, there were also ways in which ‘50s America featured markedly less government intervention as well, i.e. less higher-ed loans and no Medicare/Medicaid yet).

[Zyobot]

Another implication I've been thinking about, much like my '1980s Students At Modern Colleges/Universities' proposition in the Frivolous ASB thread, is how attractive the Pacific States would be for those downtimers seeking post-secondary education. They'd have to learn to do as the Romans do while in Rome (i.e. respect civil rights and learn how to use a computer), as well as keep concerns like college tuition and student debt in mind, however. Similar might apply to '58 professors and other such educators looking to update their long-outdated knowledge, as would then-prominent intellectuals like Kurt Godel and Richard Feynman (assuming their lot haven't disappeared with the downtimer Pacific States, anyways).

[lordroel]

Jul 25, 2019 14:42:34 GMT Zyobot said:

Another implication I've been thinking about, much like my '1980s Students At Modern Colleges/Universities' proposition in the Frivolous ASB thread, is how attractive the Pacific States would be for those downtimers seeking post-secondary education. They'd have to learn to do as the Romans do while in Rome (i.e. respect civil rights and learn how to use a computer), as well as keep concerns like college tuition and student debt in mind, however. Similar might apply to '58 professors and other such educators looking to update their long-outdated knowledge, as would then-prominent intellectuals like Kurt Godel and Richard Feynman (assuming their lot haven't disappeared with the downtimer Pacific States, anyways).

What about famous people who are smart in 1958, some of them could move to the 2008 Pacific States, do you know some who might feel at home at places like California Institute of Technology (Caltech) ore other Pacific States universities or institutes.

[Zyobot]

Jul 25, 2019 14:47:35 GMT lordroel said:

Jul 25, 2019 14:42:34 GMT Zyobot said:

Another implication I've been thinking about, much like my '1980s Students At Modern Colleges/Universities' proposition in the Frivolous ASB thread, is how attractive the Pacific States would be for those downtimers seeking post-secondary education. They'd have to learn to do as the Romans do while in Rome (i.e. respect civil rights and learn how to use a computer), as well as keep concerns like college tuition and student debt in mind, however. Similar might apply to '58 professors and other such educators looking to update their long-outdated knowledge, as would then-prominent intellectuals like Kurt Godel and Richard Feynman (assuming their lot haven't disappeared with the downtimer Pacific States, anyways).

What about famous people who are smart in 1958, some of them could move to the 2008 Pacific States, do you know some who might feel at home at places like California Institute of Technology (Caltech) ore other Pacific States universities or institutes.

Good question. Provided that he wasn't whisked away in the ISOT, Richard Feynman might want to take a tour of the likes of Caltech and other places of innovative importance in the Pacific States. Downtimer engineers and techies would likely flock to Silicon Valley, with the caveat that they'd have to do as the Romans do while in Rome, as I've said before.

And as it applies to general STEM professionals that were around in the '50s, I wonder what they'd make of uptimer internet, personal computers and smart devices. The notion of an always-accessible global communications network with all sorts of media and information might sound mind-boggling to the Average Joe of the times, but perhaps less so to experts (though they probably couldn't have imagined the current state of the WWW if they tried).

[lordroel]

Jul 25, 2019 14:56:40 GMT Zyobot said:

Jul 25, 2019 14:47:35 GMT lordroel said:

What about famous people who are smart in 1958, some of them could move to the 2008 Pacific States, do you know some who might feel at home at places like California Institute of Technology (Caltech) ore other Pacific States universities or institutes.

Good question. Provided that he wasn't whisked away in the ISOT, Richard Feynman might want to take a tour of the likes of Caltech and other places of innovative importance in the Pacific States. Downtimer engineers and techies would likely flock to Silicon Valley, with the caveat that they'd have to do as the Romans do while in Rome, as I've said before.

And as it applies to general STEM professionals that were around in the '50s, I wonder what they'd make of uptimer internet, personal computers and smart devices. The notion of an always-accessible global communications network with all sorts of media and information might sound mind-boggling to the Average Joe of the times, but perhaps less so to experts (though they probably couldn't have imagined the current state of the WWW if they tried).

Wonder if Wernher von Braun will visit Space Launch Complex 6 (SLC-6, pronounced "Slick Six") at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California.

[Zyobot]

Jul 25, 2019 14:58:58 GMT lordroel said:

Jul 25, 2019 14:56:40 GMT Zyobot said:

Good question. Provided that he wasn't whisked away in the ISOT, Richard Feynman might want to take a tour of the likes of Caltech and other places of innovative importance in the Pacific States. Downtimer engineers and techies would likely flock to Silicon Valley, with the caveat that they'd have to do as the Romans do while in Rome, as I've said before.

And as it applies to general STEM professionals that were around in the '50s, I wonder what they'd make of uptimer internet, personal computers and smart devices. The notion of an always-accessible global communications network with all sorts of media and information might sound mind-boggling to the Average Joe of the times, but perhaps less so to experts (though they probably couldn't have imagined the current state of the WWW if they tried).

Wonder if Wernher von Braun will visit Space Launch Complex 6 (SLC-6, pronounced "Slick Six") at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California.

If he's still around, maybe. But the uptimers might have to explain the universally known space leaps like the American Moon landings to him before getting into the more modern and far-out developments made within the last fifty years or so.

That said, he could probably learn a lot on at least an intermediate level by being taught how to 'Google it'. Hopefully, enough of the WWW is still intact for people to be able to do that.

[stevep]

   I wonder if any nation would probably be smart enough try and organise a system for sending some of their smartest young people to the Pacific states to learn as much as they can and help uplift their own nation.  Although that would depend on them not going native or developing ideas that were too much for their people/leaders.