2008 Pacific States To 1958

[lordroel]

Jul 30, 2019 16:21:56 GMT mullauna said:

Can '58 H.W. and '08 W. run on a joint ticket?

H.W Bush is only 34 years old in 1958, that is a year to young to run for President or Vice President, also i do not know if 1958 America will recognize 2008 Pacific States as being part of them as it is so much different then them.

[Zyobot]

Jul 30, 2019 16:26:29 GMT lordroel said:

Jul 30, 2019 16:21:56 GMT mullauna said:

Can '58 H.W. and '08 W. run on a joint ticket?

H.W Bush is only 34 years old in 1958, that is a year to young to run for President or Vice President, also i do not know if 1958 America will recognize 2008 Pacific States as being part of them as it is so much different then them.

He'd old enough to run in 1960 though, since H.W. would turn thirty-six that year. Whether he and (uptimer) Bush Jr. would feel inclined to have him become a running mate, I don't know.

[Zyobot]

I wonder how news reporting would turn out on both sides, but especially in regards what downtimer journalists and agencies would say about the uptimers. Might G.W. Bush participate in an interview with the likes of Edward R. Murrow, perhaps?

[mullauna]

Speaking of Edward R. Murrow, is it too late to save his life at this point, has the smoking pushed his body past the point of no return/

[Zyobot]

Aug 3, 2019 23:42:53 GMT mullauna said:

Speaking of Edward R. Murrow, is it too late to save his life at this point, has the smoking pushed his body past the point of no return/

Well, having looked on Wikipedia, I'd speculate that Murrow may have some time left to turn his health around since he died in 1965, and seemed to have lung surgery about two years before then. Unfortunately, I know next to nothing about medical science in general, let alone in that area.

Additionally, it could be hell for the guy to quit his nasty smoking habit of consuming sixty-something cigarettes per day.

[Zyobot]

Since the 2008 Pacific States have been sent fifty years back in time, I wonder how scientific and technological advancement will look ITTL. In the short term, it's hampered from the uptimers' perspective since their trading partners and communication from the STEM community within other countries has forever been cut off. Obviously, the downtimers will have a completely opposite perspective there.

[Zyobot]

Word will get out about this sooner or later, so downtimer America--if not also the Pacific States to some extent--will have to address post-1958 legislation, such as Medicare/Medicaid, federal funding for higher education, and the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, among a long list of other major policies that have been implemented since their time.

This also includes important economic legislation, such as the supposed mass-deregulation that was initiated under Jimmy Carter, and exacerbated by Ronald Reagan as well as his successors to a certain extent. The repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act for banking ought to face contention, as would the demise of the Fairness Doctrine for news coverage. The latter may be especially hard to apply to online news, such as rampant citizen journalism and digital startups that may not be as prevalent in 2008 as is true nowadays, but have the means of manifesting that are there already.

[stevep]

Aug 14, 2019 22:59:59 GMT Zyobot said:

Word will get out about this sooner or later, so downtimer America--if not also the Pacific States to some extent--will have to address post-1958 legislation, such as Medicare/Medicaid, federal funding for higher education, and the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, among a long list of other major policies that have been implemented since their time.

This also includes important economic legislation, such as the supposed mass-deregulation that was initiated under Jimmy Carter, and exacerbated by Ronald Reagan as well as his successors to a certain extent. The repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act for banking ought to face contention, as would the demise of the Fairness Doctrine for news coverage. The latter may be especially hard to apply to online news, such as rampant citizen journalism and digital startups that may not be as prevalent in 2008 as is true nowadays, but have the means of manifesting that are there already.

  Well the awkward issues will be questions on sexual and racial equality and possibly most explosive of all Roe_v._Wade which I think will be the proverbial lead balloon as far as much of the 1958 US will be concerned I suspect.

  One other issue just occurred to me.  Both Alaska and Hawaii became states in 1959 so although it was on the way neither are yet states as far as the 58'ers are concern so they might still be unwilling to accept Senators and Congressmen from those areas or to accept they have the rights and powers of states rather than territories.  Probably not a big issue compared to many others that will cause problems but another complication.

[Zyobot]

Aug 15, 2019 15:14:31 GMT stevep said:

Aug 14, 2019 22:59:59 GMT Zyobot said:

Word will get out about this sooner or later, so downtimer America--if not also the Pacific States to some extent--will have to address post-1958 legislation, such as Medicare/Medicaid, federal funding for higher education, and the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, among a long list of other major policies that have been implemented since their time.

This also includes important economic legislation, such as the supposed mass-deregulation that was initiated under Jimmy Carter, and exacerbated by Ronald Reagan as well as his successors to a certain extent. The repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act for banking ought to face contention, as would the demise of the Fairness Doctrine for news coverage. The latter may be especially hard to apply to online news, such as rampant citizen journalism and digital startups that may not be as prevalent in 2008 as is true nowadays, but have the means of manifesting that are there already.

  Well the awkward issues will be questions on sexual and racial equality and possibly most explosive of all Roe_v._Wade which I think will be the proverbial lead balloon as far as much of the 1958 US will be concerned I suspect.

  One other issue just occurred to me.  Both Alaska and Hawaii became states in 1959 so although it was on the way neither are yet states as far as the 58'ers are concern so they might still be unwilling to accept Senators and Congressmen from those areas or to accept they have the rights and powers of states rather than territories.  Probably not a big issue compared to many others that will cause problems but another complication.

I agree that Roe v. Wade will be on the forefront of uptimer-downtimer tensions, as abortion--let alone a proudly pro-choice movement--seems to have been exceedingly taboo in the pre-permissive society '50s. As a matter of fact, I'm willing to bet that it'd be yet another reason for the Pacific States and the rest of America to decide that they can't live in the same country together.

As for Alaska and Hawaii, I wonder if the question of whether they should count as states or territories would warrant a Supreme Court case in of itself. And even then, that discounts the fact that they're from 2008 and therefore part of the newfound Pacific bloc.

On the broader topic of the politics of TTL, what might President Bush do as the chief representative for uptimer interests? In addition to talking with Dwight E., addressing downtimer Congress, and introducing himself to the rest of '58 America (maybe agreeing to the occasional interview or two), maybe he'd speak directly to then-disenfranchised groups as well. From what I've read, Dubya seemed somewhat further left on racial issues and was able to capture a fair share of those votes IOTL. If that's actually the case, then it's worth deliberating whether he could do something similar here, i.e. pose in a picture with MLK Jr. or something.

[mullauna]

Zyobot,the names of many future OTL activists etc *will* leak to those in the South and Lower Mid-West who will wish to do said people harm. I can easily see some people who lived in the original history not surviving in the ISOT world.

[Zyobot]

Aug 15, 2019 17:49:51 GMT mullauna said:

Zyobot ,the names of many future OTL activists etc *will* leak to those in the South and Lower Mid-West who will wish to do said people harm. I can easily see some people who lived in the original history not surviving in the ISOT world.

Yeaaah that's definitely bad. I do, however, wonder if that problem could be partially mitigated by informing downtimer authorities ahead of time.

Although, that might make very little difference in the Jim Crow South. I thought I read something once about a significant portion of law enforcement members being KKK members, or at least affiliates back then?

[stevep]

Aug 15, 2019 17:56:24 GMT Zyobot said:

Aug 15, 2019 17:49:51 GMT mullauna said:

Zyobot ,the names of many future OTL activists etc *will* leak to those in the South and Lower Mid-West who will wish to do said people harm. I can easily see some people who lived in the original history not surviving in the ISOT world.

Yeaaah that's definitely bad. I do, however, wonder if that problem could be partially mitigated by informing downtimer authorities ahead of time.

Although, that might make very little difference in the Jim Crow South. I thought I read something once about a significant portion of law enforcement members being KKK members, or at least affiliates back then?

  I fear that would be the problem.  As I understand it many of the police, in the south at least, viewed the problem as the blacks and their supporters agitating for equal rights rather than their being suppressed and abused.  That seems to be the primary reason why some of the crimes against civil rights people were either unsolved or only solved many years later.

  This also relates to the old problem.  The 2008 people know of a lot of historical to them events that haven't happened yet.  Both crimes and other things.  Can you blame someone for something they haven't done yet and what do you do with say young children who later become - at least in the 2008 world - psychopaths, terrorists, etc?  Plus how does 1958 respond to reports of what their vice President gets up to in ~12 years time?

  One other potential issue here might be the large number of blacks and Latinos in California and how I could see a lot of the 58 US - or at least the dominant white majority - associating with crime and the like and the way that Spanish has become very much a 2nd language in the state.  As such and with the news that the 2008 world could foresee in the not too distant future a world where whites in the US actually cease to be a majority as a serious threat to their society and way of life.

[Zyobot]

Aug 16, 2019 11:40:38 GMT stevep said:

Aug 15, 2019 17:56:24 GMT Zyobot said:

Yeaaah that's definitely bad. I do, however, wonder if that problem could be partially mitigated by informing downtimer authorities ahead of time.

Although, that might make very little difference in the Jim Crow South. I thought I read something once about a significant portion of law enforcement members being KKK members, or at least affiliates back then?

  I fear that would be the problem.  As I understand it many of the police, in the south at least, viewed the problem as the blacks and their supporters agitating for equal rights rather than their being suppressed and abused.  That seems to be the primary reason why some of the crimes against civil rights people were either unsolved or only solved many years later.

  This also relates to the old problem.  The 2008 people know of a lot of historical to them events that haven't happened yet.  Both crimes and other things.  Can you blame someone for something they haven't done yet and what do you do with say young children who later become - at least in the 2008 world - psychopaths, terrorists, etc?  Plus how does 1958 respond to reports of what their vice President gets up to in ~12 years time?

  One other potential issue here might be the large number of blacks and Latinos in California and how I could see a lot of the 58 US - or at least the dominant white majority - associating with crime and the like and the way that Spanish has become very much a 2nd language in the state.  As such and with the news that the 2008 world could foresee in the not too distant future a world where whites in the US actually cease to be a majority as a serious threat to their society and way of life.

Mm'kay. Similar to sentiments I expressed in an AH.com thread that closely resembles this one, maybe the raging Segregationists will cherry-pick in what they rail against towards downtimer audiences? As in, only screech about the worst areas of the Golden State...while ignoring or grossly misrepresenting the real impressive stuff, i.e. Silicon Valley?

I mean, it's not as if '50s people have smartphones they can whip out or personal computers they can sit down in front of to look up just what this future United States is about--at least, not yet they don't. Maybe downtimer TV outlets will be much more candid and balanced in their reporting (though by no means perfect, of course)? Sources fifty years behind the times are bound to make mistakes and muddy the findings with their own subjective biases, considering that this is 1958 we're talking about.

[stevep]

Aug 24, 2019 18:01:55 GMT Zyobot said:

Aug 16, 2019 11:40:38 GMT stevep said:

  I fear that would be the problem.  As I understand it many of the police, in the south at least, viewed the problem as the blacks and their supporters agitating for equal rights rather than their being suppressed and abused.  That seems to be the primary reason why some of the crimes against civil rights people were either unsolved or only solved many years later.

  This also relates to the old problem.  The 2008 people know of a lot of historical to them events that haven't happened yet.  Both crimes and other things.  Can you blame someone for something they haven't done yet and what do you do with say young children who later become - at least in the 2008 world - psychopaths, terrorists, etc?  Plus how does 1958 respond to reports of what their vice President gets up to in ~12 years time?

  One other potential issue here might be the large number of blacks and Latinos in California and how I could see a lot of the 58 US - or at least the dominant white majority - associating with crime and the like and the way that Spanish has become very much a 2nd language in the state.  As such and with the news that the 2008 world could foresee in the not too distant future a world where whites in the US actually cease to be a majority as a serious threat to their society and way of life.

Mm'kay. Similar to sentiments I expressed in an AH.com thread that closely resembles this one, maybe the raging Segregationists will cherry-pick in what they rail against towards downtimer audiences? As in, only screech about the worst areas of the Golden State...while ignoring or grossly misrepresenting the real impressive stuff, i.e. Silicon Valley?

I mean, it's not as if '50s people have smartphones they can whip out or personal computers they can sit down in front of to look up just what this future United States is about--at least, not yet they don't. Maybe downtimer TV outlets will be much more candid and balanced in their reporting (though by no means perfect, of course)? Sources fifty years behind the times are bound to make mistakes and muddy the findings with their own subjective biases, considering that this is 1958 we're talking about.

  It could be that, if we're lucky, the 58 national government will play a role in informing the population.  It will have a hell of a shock but will want the best possible relations with the 08 west.  Also this is the time before Nixon won over the south for the Republicans so their still the party of Lincoln to many and the bulk of the bigots are closely tied to the Democratic party.  As such a Republican government could see benefits in making people aware of the true situation in the south. 

  It will be a big shock to the US psyche, even bigger than the OTL Sputnik surprise.  However at least this time, although alien in many ways the area producing the shock is American rather than the feared Soviets.  Also as well as offering a lot of military power and technology they can inform the 59 US that it responded to the Soviets challenge and restored a technological lead and ultimately, with its allies outlasted the Soviet empire.

[Zyobot]

Aug 25, 2019 9:09:50 GMT stevep said:

Aug 24, 2019 18:01:55 GMT Zyobot said:

Mm'kay. Similar to sentiments I expressed in an AH.com thread that closely resembles this one, maybe the raging Segregationists will cherry-pick in what they rail against towards downtimer audiences? As in, only screech about the worst areas of the Golden State...while ignoring or grossly misrepresenting the real impressive stuff, i.e. Silicon Valley?

I mean, it's not as if '50s people have smartphones they can whip out or personal computers they can sit down in front of to look up just what this future United States is about--at least, not yet they don't. Maybe downtimer TV outlets will be much more candid and balanced in their reporting (though by no means perfect, of course)? Sources fifty years behind the times are bound to make mistakes and muddy the findings with their own subjective biases, considering that this is 1958 we're talking about.

  It could be that, if we're lucky, the 58 national government will play a role in informing the population.  It will have a hell of a shock but will want the best possible relations with the 08 west.  Also this is the time before Nixon won over the south for the Republicans so their still the party of Lincoln to many and the bulk of the bigots are closely tied to the Democratic party.  As such a Republican government could see benefits in making people aware of the true situation in the south. 

  It will be a big shock to the US psyche, even bigger than the OTL Sputnik surprise.  However at least this time, although alien in many ways the area producing the shock is American rather than the feared Soviets.  Also as well as offering a lot of military power and technology they can inform the 59 US that it responded to the Soviets challenge and restored a technological lead and ultimately, with its allies outlasted the Soviet empire.

Overall, good points. About the Southern Democrats, I wonder if the uptimer Republicans will use them as ammunition to discredit the Democratic Party as a whole and portray themselves as the party of civil rights ITTL, especially with G.W. Bush at the helm. The fact that there's bound to be infighting galore between the uptimer and downtimer Democrats will certainly worsen their prospects here.

However, the arrival of the 2008 Pacific States means that no other nation on earth can compete with American science and technology in the short term, similar to what you've said. The Soviets may have launched the first satellite a few months before, but the US now has the needed knowledge and infrastructure to conduct full-blown space exploration of its own, not to mention setting up satellites capable of facilitating GPS, TV and internet access , among other things.