Cold Warriors: The Essex Class in the Cold War

[ssgtc]

Sept 15, 2020 15:30:43 GMT stevep said:

Sept 15, 2020 14:34:41 GMT lordroel said:

Nope stevep , on a different forum he made it clear it is not a double post, look at the locations the strikes happen and you come to the conclusion that there will be a barracks brawl coming up.

  OK thanks.  That is likely to prompt such a brawl. 

Yup. Both missions were timed to hit their targets simultaneously to minimize warning times. And all the flight crews were told that theirs was the first combat use of the new aircraft for security in case it leaked. So yes, a barracks brawl is imminent

[lordroel]

Sept 15, 2020 19:14:41 GMT ssgtc said:

Sept 15, 2020 15:30:43 GMT stevep said:

  OK thanks.  That is likely to prompt such a brawl. 

Yup. Both missions were timed to hit their targets simultaneously to minimize warning times. And all the flight crews were told that theirs was the first combat use of the new aircraft for security in case it leaked. So yes, a barracks brawl is imminent

So when will we see the Indonesian Army do a strike against a radio station as I doubt they like to see the Indonesian Airforce getting all the credit.

Also how is Allen Pope doing, is he in jail ore like OTL under house arrest and did the documents he carried allow the Indonesia’s to find the radio stations to strike at.

[ssgtc]

Sept 15, 2020 19:37:25 GMT lordroel said:

Sept 15, 2020 19:14:41 GMT ssgtc said:

Yup. Both missions were timed to hit their targets simultaneously to minimize warning times. And all the flight crews were told that theirs was the first combat use of the new aircraft for security in case it leaked. So yes, a barracks brawl is imminent

So when will we see the Indonesian Army do a strike against a radio station as I doubt they like to see the Indonesian Airforce getting all the credit.

Also how is Allen Pope doing, is he in jail ore like OTL under house arrest and did the documents he carried allow the Indonesia’s to find the radio stations to strike at.

Radio triangulation located the radio stations. The Indonesians have known where they were located since they started broadcasting. The Army has other missions assigned to it. Besides, the radio stations have been leveled. They each took multiple 550 pound bomb hits. In one case, the transmitting tower was toppled.

[ssgtc]

November 2, 1957
Iswahyudi Air Base, Jakarta, Indonesia

The Military Policemen had just broken up a fight at the barracks. Strangely, the fight was only between the members of a single squadron. Most such barracks brawls were between different squadrons. To have one within a squadron was quite strange. When questioned as to the cause of the fight, the men nearly came to blows again. It seems that two different groups within the squadron both claimed to have conducted the first combat mission of their new aircraft type.

The senior Military Policeman present sighed heavily. "Flyboys," he thought. Fine, if they wanted to all be hotheads tonight, he had cells aplenty to cool them down in. Their squadron commander would have to be sent a full report on this incident of course, and he was sure to be far from pleased. He did not envy these men his wrath for spoiling such a momentous occasion. He would leave it up to the higher authorities to determine who had actually flown the first mission. That was well above his paygrade anyway. But restoring peace and order to the air base? That he could do.

[ssgtc]

November 3, 1957
Jakarta, Indonesia

Ambassador John Allison was dealing with a firestorm entirely of the CIA's making. They sent one of their mercenary pilots on a bombing mission over Ambon and the man had been shot down. Now, the Government of President Sukarno was trumpeting to the world what the United States was doing in Indonesia. He had warned the State Department that this was going to happen if the CIA went ahead with their plan. But the President had given the operation a green light anyway. Though from he was hearing from Secretary Dulles that President Eisenhower had ordered the CIA not to directly engage in combat operations. Well, they had royally screwed that one up.

The capture of Allen Pope was cast iron proof that the United States was trying to overthrow the legitimate government of Indonesia. If Indonesia was moving closer to the Soviet Union before, this was almost guaranteed to throw them bodily into the arms of the Soviets. Just last week he had recommended to Washington that the United States offer to directly mediate the dispute between Indonesia and the Netherlands to try and keep the Indonesians from out and out joining the USSR. That was out of the question now. He had tried to meet with President Sukarno when the news broke of Pope's capture. Merdeka Palace had refused to even take his calls. If he was any judge of diplomacy, he would say that he was on the verge of being declared persona non grata and the American Embassy closed.

John was hoping for a miracle at this point to try and salvage something out of the United States' relationship with Indonesia. But miracles were few and far between. For the first time since taking up his post earlier in the year, he was honestly afraid of what the future held for the region. Indonesia was rapidly modernizing their military and would soon outclass their regional rivals the Philippines, Japan, New Zealand and even Australia. He prayed that cooler heads would prevail, but began to draft a recommendation that the United States increase military aid to the region to speed the modernization of her allies' military forces.

[ssgtc]

November 3, 1957
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia

Sir Phillip McBride, the Minister for Defense, was receiving a briefing from several of his subordinates in his Ministry. Indonesia's actions over the last few days had rung quite a few alarm bells in the Air Force and Navy. The Navy had just begun receiving de Haviland Sea Venom fighters last year and they were already woefully outclassed by Indonesia's MiG-17s. The MiG was over one hundred miles an hour faster at sea level and one hundred and fifty miles an hour faster at altitude. This was a major problem the Navy and one not easily rectified. There were higher performance naval aircraft available in the form of the de Haviland Sea Vixen from the United Kingdom which would equal the performance of the Fresco and both the Grumman F11F Tiger and Vought F8U Crusader from the United States which were both supersonic and clearly outclassed the MiG-17. But they were all significantly heavier than their existing fighters, with only the Tiger possibly being able to launch from the Melbourne. This presented a significant issue for the Fleet Air Arm, one not easily solved.

The Air Force wasn't in quite as dire straights as the Fleet Air Arm was. Their Sabres were roughly equal to the MiG-17 in performance and, in the professional opinion of Air Marshal Sir Fredrick Scherger, the pilots of the Royal Australian Air Force were vastly better trained than their Indonesian counterparts and would likely win most encounters. But it was still a worrying development as the RAAF would only be equal to a potential enemy instead in terms of equipment instead of clearly superior to them.

In the short term, the possibility of equipping the fighters with American Sidewinder or British Firestreak missiles was suggested as a means of increasing the lethality of Australia's existing fighters. In the long term, both services would need a new fighter. This was a much easier dilemma to solve for the Air Force as they could base fighters at almost every air base in the country. While a new fighter for the Fleet Air Arm would likely also mean buying a new aircraft carrier, despite Melbourne having only entered service two years earlier. Further meetings would need to be held to map out a course for the next several years.

At the end of the meeting, Air Marshal Scherger made the worrying comment that not only would Australia need to investigate new fighters, but their force of Canberra bombers would also be extraordinarily vulnerable in the face of Indonesia's new fighter force. This comment froze several people in their tracks as they were heading to the doors. No one had considered that Australia's primary means of force projection might not be able to successfully conduct their mission. It was a worrying thought to end the meeting on.

[stevep]

Sept 15, 2020 21:19:16 GMT ssgtc said:

November 3, 1957
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia

Sir Phillip McBride, the Minister for Defense, was receiving a briefing from several of his subordinates in his Ministry. Indonesia's actions over the last few days had rung quite a few alarm bells in the Air Force and Navy. The Navy had just begun receiving de Haviland Sea Venom fighters last year and they were already woefully outclassed by Indonesia's MiG-17s. The MiG was over one hundred miles an hour faster at sea level and one hundred and fifty miles an hour faster at altitude. This was a major problem the Navy and one not easily rectified. There were higher performance naval aircraft available in the form of the de Haviland Sea Vixen from the United Kingdom which would equal the performance of the Fresco and both the Grumman F11F Tiger and Vought F8U Crusader from the United States which were both supersonic and clearly outclassed the MiG-17. But they were all significantly heavier than their existing fighters, with only the Tiger possibly being able to launch from the Melbourne. This presented a significant issue for the Fleet Air Arm, one not easily solved.

The Air Force wasn't in quite as dire straights as the Fleet Air Arm was. Their Sabres were roughly equal to the MiG-17 in performance and, in the professional opinion of Air Marshal Sir Fredrick Scherger, the pilots of the Royal Australian Air Force were vastly better trained than their Indonesian counterparts and would likely win most encounters. But it was still a worrying development as the RAAF would only be equal to a potential enemy instead in terms of equipment instead of clearly superior to them.

In the short term, the possibility of equipping the fighters with American Sidewinder or British Firestreak missiles was suggested as a means of increasing the lethality of Australia's existing fighters. In the long term, both services would need a new fighter. This was a much easier dilemma to solve for the Air Force as they could base fighters at almost every air base in the country. While a new fighter for the Fleet Air Arm would likely also mean buying a new aircraft carrier, despite Melbourne having only entered service two years earlier. Further meetings would need to be held to map out a course for the next several years.

At the end of the meeting, Air Marshal Scherger made the worrying comment that not only would Australia need to investigate new fighters, but their force of Canberra bombers would also be extraordinarily vulnerable in the face of Indonesia's new fighter force. This comment froze several people in their tracks as they were heading to the doors. No one had considered that Australia's primary means of force projection might not be able to successfully conduct their mission. It was a worrying thought to end the meeting on.

  Ouch that is a nasty collection of problems.  I can see an incentive now for Australia looking for a 'new' [2nd hand] CV that is more capable and can handle the larger and more modern a/c but it sounds like they pretty much need an entire new airforce.  Also of course if Indonesia is getting new a/c what else might it be getting?  The army might be less important as it depends on forces getting to a fight and also most/all of the probable terrain where conflict is likely to occur is mountainous, jungle or both so heavy equipment is less important but its going to cause concern for the rest of the navy as well.

  Other regional powers that Indonesia is making boundary claims on will have similar problems.  This includes the Dutch, Malaysia [and hence Britain] and possibly also the Philippines.

[lordroel]

Sept 15, 2020 21:09:15 GMT ssgtc said:

November 3, 1957
Jakarta, Indonesia

Ambassador John Allison was dealing with a firestorm entirely of the CIA's making. They sent one of their mercenary pilots on a bombing mission over Ambon and the man had been shot down. Now, the Government of President Sukarno was trumpeting to the world what the United States was doing in Indonesia. He had warned the State Department that this was going to happen if the CIA went ahead with their plan. But the President had given the operation a green light anyway. Though from he was hearing from Secretary Dulles that President Eisenhower had ordered the CIA not to directly engage in combat operations. Well, they had royally screwed that one up.

The capture of Allen Pope was cast iron proof that the United States was trying to overthrow the legitimate government of Indonesia. If Indonesia was moving closer to the Soviet Union before, this was almost guaranteed to throw them bodily into the arms of the Soviets. Just last week he had recommended to Washington that the United States offer to directly mediate the dispute between Indonesia and the Netherlands to try and keep the Indonesians from out and out joining the USSR. That was out of the question now. He had tried to meet with President Sukarno when the news broke of Pope's capture. Merdeka Palace had refused to even take his calls. If he was any judge of diplomacy, he would say that he was on the verge of being declared persona non grata and the American Embassy closed.

John was hoping for a miracle at this point to try and salvage something out of the United States' relationship with Indonesia. But miracles were few and far between. For the first time since taking up his post earlier in the year, he was honestly afraid of what the future held for the region. Indonesia was rapidly modernizing their military and would soon outclass their regional rivals the Philippines, Japan, New Zealand and even Australia. He prayed that cooler heads would prevail, but began to draft a recommendation that the United States increase military aid to the region to speed the modernization of her allies' military forces.

I doubt JFK will vist Indonesia like OTL here with tensions so high.

[ssgtc]

Sept 16, 2020 10:57:18 GMT stevep said:

Sept 15, 2020 21:19:16 GMT ssgtc said:

November 3, 1957
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia

Sir Phillip McBride, the Minister for Defense, was receiving a briefing from several of his subordinates in his Ministry. Indonesia's actions over the last few days had rung quite a few alarm bells in the Air Force and Navy. The Navy had just begun receiving de Haviland Sea Venom fighters last year and they were already woefully outclassed by Indonesia's MiG-17s. The MiG was over one hundred miles an hour faster at sea level and one hundred and fifty miles an hour faster at altitude. This was a major problem the Navy and one not easily rectified. There were higher performance naval aircraft available in the form of the de Haviland Sea Vixen from the United Kingdom which would equal the performance of the Fresco and both the Grumman F11F Tiger and Vought F8U Crusader from the United States which were both supersonic and clearly outclassed the MiG-17. But they were all significantly heavier than their existing fighters, with only the Tiger possibly being able to launch from the Melbourne. This presented a significant issue for the Fleet Air Arm, one not easily solved.

The Air Force wasn't in quite as dire straights as the Fleet Air Arm was. Their Sabres were roughly equal to the MiG-17 in performance and, in the professional opinion of Air Marshal Sir Fredrick Scherger, the pilots of the Royal Australian Air Force were vastly better trained than their Indonesian counterparts and would likely win most encounters. But it was still a worrying development as the RAAF would only be equal to a potential enemy instead in terms of equipment instead of clearly superior to them.

In the short term, the possibility of equipping the fighters with American Sidewinder or British Firestreak missiles was suggested as a means of increasing the lethality of Australia's existing fighters. In the long term, both services would need a new fighter. This was a much easier dilemma to solve for the Air Force as they could base fighters at almost every air base in the country. While a new fighter for the Fleet Air Arm would likely also mean buying a new aircraft carrier, despite Melbourne having only entered service two years earlier. Further meetings would need to be held to map out a course for the next several years.

At the end of the meeting, Air Marshal Scherger made the worrying comment that not only would Australia need to investigate new fighters, but their force of Canberra bombers would also be extraordinarily vulnerable in the face of Indonesia's new fighter force. This comment froze several people in their tracks as they were heading to the doors. No one had considered that Australia's primary means of force projection might not be able to successfully conduct their mission. It was a worrying thought to end the meeting on.

  Ouch that is a nasty collection of problems.  I can see an incentive now for Australia looking for a 'new' [2nd hand] CV that is more capable and can handle the larger and more modern a/c but it sounds like they pretty much need an entire new airforce.  Also of course if Indonesia is getting new a/c what else might it be getting?  The army might be less important as it depends on forces getting to a fight and also most/all of the probable terrain where conflict is likely to occur is mountainous, jungle or both so heavy equipment is less important but its going to cause concern for the rest of the navy as well.

  Other regional powers that Indonesia is making boundary claims on will have similar problems.  This includes the Dutch, Malaysia [and hence Britain] and possibly also the Philippines.

Yup, not a nice position to be in. Australia was shockingly slow to modernize their military after WWII. They didn't get their first supersonic fighter until 1965 (Mirage III). They only upgraded when Indonesia and the Netherlands damn near went to war over West New Guinea and they realized how easily they could get sucked into it.

The Air Force isn't as bad as the Navy though. The CAC Sabre is at least equal to the MiG-17F/Shenyang F-5. But the Sea Venom is a first generation jet and would be meat on the table for a MiG. The problem is Melbourne. She was shockingly limited as a strike carrier. Hell, in OTL the RAN was looking to replace her by 1960.

I did forget to mention that the FJ-4 could also be an option for the FAA, as it was a capable fighter-bomber and had performance equal to the MiG-17 with very good range ac could probably fly off the Melbourne. But the writing is already on the wall that higher performance fighters are going to be needed rapidly. The USN sent the F-8 to sea for the first time in 1957 and it could do Mach 1.8 and had begun development of the F8U-3 and F4H, both Mach 2+ interceptors armed with long range radar guided missiles. So the RAN already knows that Melbourne is obsolete and will need to be replaced to operate the next generation of jets that are coming.

And yes, the other nations in the region are getting very worried about Indonesia.

[ssgtc]

November 6, 1957
Sulawesi, Indonesia

Loyal units of the Indonesian Army launch an attack on the Permesta rebels with heavy support provided by the Indonesian Air Force flying B-25 Mitchel and Ilyushin Il-28 bombers, P-51 Mustang and MiG-17 fighters. In a coordinated assault, the Army rolls over the main Permesta base, scattering the rebels into the jungle.

In the sky above Sulawesi, the first Indonesian pilots to take the Shenyang F-5 into battle engage the CIA supplied rebel P-47s and A-20s. It is a slaughter as the WWII veteran airframes are bounced by the far superior Chinese supplied aircraft. In one notable example, Captain Saleh Basarah shot down three P-47s and one A-20 on a single mission. He was the first Indonesian pilot to convert to jet aircraft and the first to qualify on the F-5. He also became the first Indonesian Air Force Officer to score an air-to-air kill. Though Indonesia was still in the process of standing up their F-5 force, the decision had been made to commit those pilots and aircraft deemed ready for operations by their training officers as a display of strength and resolve.

[ssgtc]

November 7th, 1957
Sumatra, Indonesia

In a repeat of the events on Sulawesi the day before, the Indonesian armed forces launched an attack on rebel forces on Sumatra. Unlike the previous day, the rebels are prepared and waiting the Army. Though ultimately futile, they make the loyal units pay a high price in blood for their victory.

The surviving officers and men of the rebels, having run out of ammunition, surrender to the Army in the late evening. Though the Permesta rebellion was far from over, organized resistance to the rule of President Sukarno on Sumatra and Sulawesi had ceased.

[ssgtc]

November 10, 1957
Jakarta, Java, Indonesia

CIA Officer Allen Pope is put on trial for the murder of nearly a dozen civilians and military personnel in a military court. The four officer panel hears evidence from both sides before passing their verdict. In a display of showmanship and astute diplomatic sense, Indonesia provided Allen Pope with one of the best defense lawyers in Indonesia, Adnan Buyung Nasution. In daylong arguments, Mr Nasution argues that his client had never attacked any civilian target and thus, the charges against him regarding the civilian deaths should be dropped. The prosecution, having entered Mr Pope's flight log into evidence, pointed to the target list maintained by Mr Pope and argued that those deaths should remain.

By the end of the day, all the charges against Allen Pope were found to be true and he was found guilty of murder. Before passing sentence on Mr Pope, the military court offered him the chance to plead for mercy. Mister Pope declined, instead maintaining that he was innocent of the charges. The words of the Presiding Officer of the Court echoed through the court after Pope's refusal:

"Allen Pope, this court finds you guilty of murder. You are hereby sentenced to death and remanded to Cipinang Penitentiary until such time as your sentence may be carried out."

[ssgtc]

November 15, 1957
Washington, DC, USA

Following Congressional authorization in 1954, the contract for USS Enterprise CVA(N)-65 is finally awarded to Newport News Shipbuilding in Virginia. At the same time, following the loss of Independence, a second contract is awarded to Newport News for USS America CVA(N)-66, the second of the planned six Enterprise class carriers. Originally programed to be laid down in 1961 following the launch of Enterprise, America's contract was modified for the ship to be laid down in late 1958 instead.

America is to be laid down nearly one year after Enterprise. The Navy had argued to have both ships laid down within a few months of each other, but Congress insisted on the delay between the ships as laying them both down nearly simultaneously would necessitate one ship being built by Newport News and the other being built by either the New York or Philadelphia Naval Shipyards, almost entirely negating the projected cost savings of the two carrier buy. By delaying the construction of America, Newport News will be able to prepare a second building slip for CVA(N)-66. Unlike her older sister that will be constructed on a traditional inclined shipway, America will be built in dry dock and floated out instead of launched.

Following the contract awards, long lead-time items were ordered for the two ships. In particular, the sixteen reactors that were needed for both ships were ordered into production. Westinghouse begins fabrication of the A2W reactors immediately.

[lordroel]

Sept 27, 2020 21:18:34 GMT ssgtc said:

November 10, 1957


"Allen Pope, this court finds you guilty of murder. You are hereby sentenced to death and remanded to Cipinang Penitentiary until such time as your sentence may be carried out."

If that happens unlike OTL then the relations between the United States and Indonesia will be very frosty.

Only country who befits from it is the Netherlands who unlike OTL does not have to worry that the United States chose Indonesia over them in the New Guinea conflict.

[archibald]

RIP WWII aircraft, Allen Pope, and also future USN budgets... With 8 reactors per ship, even more than Nimitz OTL fleet this Enterprise fleet will be expensive, maintenance included.
There were good reasons OTL that they waited a decade to build Nimitzs.