lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 24, 2019 8:56:13 GMT
What if every country Civil War loosing side sins 1900 to 1950 replaces the winning side in power.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 24, 2019 10:05:55 GMT
What if every country Civil War loosing side sins 1900 to 1950 replaces the winning side in power.
Damn it wrote a post then obviously hit the wrong button. Anyway in a word chaos. For instance your now got a KMT government in power in China and some sort of autocratic monarchy in Russia - or would it be the entire Russian empire of 1914? If not the latter than some fringe states such as Finland and possibly the Baltics would have red governments as pro-Bolshevik parties were defeated by nationalists in some of them. Also Spain now has an unstable republican/communist coalition and Greece has a communist government. There's probably going to be a fair number of changes in parts of Latin America.
The formal colonial states may be largely untouched as they were under colonial rule during this period unless failed uprisings against such rule are included as civil wars? Or would things such as the Indian occupation of assorted princely states, some by force, in 1947/48 count as if so then some of them could reappear.
Just thought does this make the Irish republic part of Britain again! If not then the civil war in the early/mid 20's put hard liners in charge but then they gained power by more peaceful means a decade or so later so might not make a big difference. Unless it means the republic has reverted to the sort of autocratic at least semi-clerical state it was in the 1930-60s roughly.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 24, 2019 10:14:54 GMT
Just thought does this make the Irish republic part of Britain again! If not then the civil war in the early/mid 20's put hard liners in charge but then they gained power by more peaceful means a decade or so later so might not make a big difference. Unless it means the republic has reverted to the sort of autocratic at least semi-clerical state it was in the 1930-60s roughly.
Think you might be right, if the winner would be the Anti-Treaty IRA, then the British would be forced to mount a new intervention. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 24, 2019 10:29:17 GMT
I actually have a really stupid thought occur to me this morning trying to sleep. What if all new electronic media images, or at least mobile ones, possibly static photos aren't affected, see images of people replaced by aliens. Assuming say a few thousand standard types which are consistent. I.e. Donald Trump is always displayed as a shambling purple hulk with four arms and three eyes, Putin as a blue bird with three heads and bat wings etc. Note I'm saying this occurs to all people not just celebrates.
Definitely had problems sleeping as I thought through the consequences. Live action movies and the like are probably going to die the death. "Sorry Mr Pitt, no one wants to see a 6 legged pink and green stripped lizard with two tails and four eyes on screen"  . Similarly a lot of broadcast sport would be very difficult to follow. "Now is that red troll with five legs and dragon wings on our team or theirs?" Some sports might fair a little better - "Yes that's definitely Vettel, a red Ferrari with a three meter tall bat with butterfly wings driving, you can't mistake him for anyone else."
Its also going to screw up a lot of technological checks in sport and elsewhere. "Now looking on VAR, was it a penalty? Harry Kaine is the large pool of yellow ooze and the defender is the six legged egg with wings but does he actually foul him?" "The Indians are claiming its not out because Stokes bowled a no ball but do any of those four legs actually relate to his actual ones?" "How can you tell if Federer foot-faulted when he's displayed as a floating reg ball bouncing up and down?"
Or a family looking at their wedding film a few years on and explaining to their children "Yes that's your mum there, the 2m high dragon with three arms and I'm here beside her, the yellow chicken with two heads".
Its also going to make bringing some criminals to justice harder. "I agree that my client does appear on film as a red baboon with chicken wings and that such a figure was seen on CCTV leaving the crime screen but that's an image common to 45,00 people in the country so the prosecution would need really evidence to prove it was him rather than someone else with the same electronic image."
On the plus side in some autocratic states [cough China cough] its going to screw over their aims at population control by massive sivailence, face recognition and the like. "Yes that's the leader of the anti-government demonstration. Send out an order to arrest every 1m tall green chimpanzee with four eyes in the province."
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 24, 2019 10:35:39 GMT
Just thought does this make the Irish republic part of Britain again! If not then the civil war in the early/mid 20's put hard liners in charge but then they gained power by more peaceful means a decade or so later so might not make a big difference. Unless it means the republic has reverted to the sort of autocratic at least semi-clerical state it was in the 1930-60s roughly.
Think you might be right, if the winner would be the Anti-Treaty IRA, then the British would be forced to mount a new intervention.
Ouch that's a twist I hadn't considered. They were rejecting anything but complete occupation of the north by force. Although what time scale is this occurring in? When the actual civil war fails or the current day? A White Russia in the 1920's onward would have a big impact on the history of the world albeit depending on how stable it was and what territory it ruled/claimed. Similarly with a KMT China, although without a Soviet Russia would the communists win - or event KMT be defeated earlier by the Japanese as the Soviets also supported the KMT against Japan. A republican/communist Spain could be bad as Hitler is likely to invade it after France falls which would mean Gibraltar falls and complicates Britain's position in WWII. Plus how all the butterflies interacted.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 24, 2019 10:48:50 GMT
Think you might be right, if the winner would be the Anti-Treaty IRA, then the British would be forced to mount a new intervention. Ouch that's a twist I hadn't considered. They were rejecting anything but complete occupation of the north by force. Although what time scale is this occurring in? When the actual civil war fails or the current day? A White Russia in the 1920's onward would have a big impact on the history of the world albeit depending on how stable it was and what territory it ruled/claimed. Similarly with a KMT China, although without a Soviet Russia would the communists win - or event KMT be defeated earlier by the Japanese as the Soviets also supported the KMT against Japan. A republican/communist Spain could be bad as Hitler is likely to invade it after France falls which would mean Gibraltar falls and complicates Britain's position in WWII. Plus how all the butterflies interacted.
Made a list of some of the diffrent winners in the civil War. Revolución Libertadora (Venezuela), 1901–1903, winner would be the Liberal instead of OTL Conservatives. Argentine Revolution of 1905, 1905, winner would be the Radical Civic Union instead of OTL Government of Argentina. Russian Civil War, 1917–1921, inner would be the White Movement instead of OTL Soviet Russia. Finnish Civil War, 1918, winner would be the Finnish Reds instead of OTL Finnish Whites. Irish Civil War, 1922–1923, winner would be the Anti-Treaty IRA instead of OTL Irish Free State (Pro-Treaty forces). Paraguayan Civil War, 1922–1923,winner would be the Schaererists instead of OTL Gondrists. Chinese Civil War, 1927–1937, 1945–1949, winner would be the KMT instead of OTL Communist Party of China. Austrian Civil War, February 1934, winner would be the SDAPÖ/KPÖ instead of OTL First Austrian Republic. Spanish Civil War, 1936–1939, winner would be the Republicans instead of OTL Nationalist. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 24, 2019 11:06:01 GMT
Ouch that's a twist I hadn't considered. They were rejecting anything but complete occupation of the north by force. Although what time scale is this occurring in? When the actual civil war fails or the current day? A White Russia in the 1920's onward would have a big impact on the history of the world albeit depending on how stable it was and what territory it ruled/claimed. Similarly with a KMT China, although without a Soviet Russia would the communists win - or event KMT be defeated earlier by the Japanese as the Soviets also supported the KMT against Japan. A republican/communist Spain could be bad as Hitler is likely to invade it after France falls which would mean Gibraltar falls and complicates Britain's position in WWII. Plus how all the butterflies interacted.
Made a list of some of the diffrent winners in the civil War. Revolución Libertadora (Venezuela), 1901–1903, winner would be the Liberal instead of OTL Conservatives. Argentine Revolution of 1905, 1905, winner would be the Radical Civic Union instead of OTL Government of Argentina. Russian Civil War, 1917–1921, inner would be the White Movement instead of OTL Soviet Russia. Finnish Civil War, 1918, winner would be the Finnish Reds instead of OTL Finnish Whites. Irish Civil War, 1922–1923, winner would be the Anti-Treaty IRA instead of OTL Irish Free State (Pro-Treaty forces). Paraguayan Civil War, 1922–1923,winner would be the Schaererists instead of OTL Gondrists. Chinese Civil War, 1927–1937, 1945–1949, winner would be the KMT instead of OTL Communist Party of China. Austrian Civil War, February 1934, winner would be the SDAPÖ/KPÖ instead of OTL First Austrian Republic. Spanish Civil War, 1936–1939, winner would be the Republicans instead of OTL Nationalist.
Some I wasn't aware of. Would you include also say things like the overthrowing of the Portuguese monarchy in 1910 IIRC and similarly the expelling of the Spanish monarchy i 1931again IIRC? Also possibly communist coup attempts in Hungary and Bavaria at least in the aftermath of WWI? Mind you after the latter there was an attempt to restore Karl I as king of Hungary in the latter state so you could have even more chaos there!
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 24, 2019 11:09:54 GMT
Made a list of some of the diffrent winners in the civil War. Revolución Libertadora (Venezuela), 1901–1903, winner would be the Liberal instead of OTL Conservatives. Argentine Revolution of 1905, 1905, winner would be the Radical Civic Union instead of OTL Government of Argentina. Russian Civil War, 1917–1921, inner would be the White Movement instead of OTL Soviet Russia. Finnish Civil War, 1918, winner would be the Finnish Reds instead of OTL Finnish Whites. Irish Civil War, 1922–1923, winner would be the Anti-Treaty IRA instead of OTL Irish Free State (Pro-Treaty forces). Paraguayan Civil War, 1922–1923,winner would be the Schaererists instead of OTL Gondrists. Chinese Civil War, 1927–1937, 1945–1949, winner would be the KMT instead of OTL Communist Party of China. Austrian Civil War, February 1934, winner would be the SDAPÖ/KPÖ instead of OTL First Austrian Republic. Spanish Civil War, 1936–1939, winner would be the Republicans instead of OTL Nationalist. Some I wasn't aware of. Would you include also say things like the overthrowing of the Portuguese monarchy in 1910 IIRC and similarly the expelling of the Spanish monarchy i 1931again IIRC? Also possibly communist coup attempts in Hungary and Bavaria at least in the aftermath of WWI? Mind you after the latter there was an attempt to restore Karl I as king of Hungary in the latter state so you could have even more chaos there!
Can we classify a revolution as being some sort of Civil War, then yes, we can include the Kingdom of Portugal winning against the Portuguese Republicans in this list i guess. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 24, 2019 12:17:27 GMT
Some I wasn't aware of. Would you include also say things like the overthrowing of the Portuguese monarchy in 1910 IIRC and similarly the expelling of the Spanish monarchy i 1931again IIRC? Also possibly communist coup attempts in Hungary and Bavaria at least in the aftermath of WWI? Mind you after the latter there was an attempt to restore Karl I as king of Hungary in the latter state so you could have even more chaos there!
Can we classify a revolution as being some sort of Civil War, then yes, we can include the Kingdom of Portugal winning against the Portuguese Republicans in this list i guess.
In which case we could have loyalists winning the war against Irish nationalist. In which case does the reverse of the latter Irish civil war still occur as the Irish republic doesn't exist. My head is starting to hurt as probably a number of other cases like this. Similarly the 1911 revolution that replaced the Manchu dynasty in China. If the dynasty remained in power is there a later civil war between KMT and communists?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 24, 2019 12:41:46 GMT
Can we classify a revolution as being some sort of Civil War, then yes, we can include the Kingdom of Portugal winning against the Portuguese Republicans in this list i guess. In which case we could have loyalists winning the war against Irish nationalist. In which case does the reverse of the latter Irish civil war still occur as the Irish republic doesn't exist. My head is starting to hurt as probably a number of other cases like this. Similarly the 1911 revolution that replaced the Manchu dynasty in China. If the dynasty remained in power is there a later civil war between KMT and communists?
Well that you get with the thing called the Butterfly effect. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 24, 2019 14:07:37 GMT
What if every country Civil War loosing side sins 1900 to 1950 replaces the winning side in power. I know they’ve been mentioned here already, but I’m curious as to how a KMT China or White Russia would look in practice—especially compared to their Red OTL counterparts. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 24, 2019 19:23:43 GMT
What if every country Civil War loosing side sins 1900 to 1950 replaces the winning side in power. I know they’ve been mentioned here already, but I’m curious as to how a KMT China or White Russia would look in practice—especially compared to their Red OTL counterparts. Well KMT China would be a big version of Taiwan, ruled by father and then son before becoming democratic. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 25, 2019 14:41:15 GMT
I know they’ve been mentioned here already, but I’m curious as to how a KMT China or White Russia would look in practice—especially compared to their Red OTL counterparts. Well KMT China would be a big version of Taiwan, ruled by father and then son before becoming democratic. Uh-huh. I suppose it’d walk a similar path on the economic front as well, maybe becoming better off than even OTL China since Deng Xiaoping enacted his reforms? |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 25, 2019 16:00:56 GMT
What if Queen Elizabeth II mind was swapped with Queen Elizabeth I.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 25, 2019 16:44:52 GMT
What if Queen Elizabeth II mind was swapped with Queen Elizabeth I. As in, the two Elizabeths get ISOTed to one another's time periods? Or, do they switch bodies as well? |
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. Similarly a lot of broadcast sport would be very difficult to follow. "Now is that red troll with five legs and dragon wings on our team or theirs?" Some sports might fair a little better - "Yes that's definitely Vettel, a red Ferrari with a three meter tall bat with butterfly wings driving, you can't mistake him for anyone else."