stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 22, 2020 10:43:47 GMT
Another factor in this might be handling of slang, dialect and the like. Both in fiction and say formal documents relating to such cultural issues you would have people writing about how people actually speak rather than how they 'should' do. In this case the ASB could cause a lot of problems and frustration.
Its amazing how complex those issues can be when you think about some of the finer details.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Apr 23, 2020 14:46:43 GMT
‘Adolf Hitler Meets His ATL Communist Counterpart’. What a death battle that’d ensue between the two Fuhrers, I bet.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 23, 2020 15:02:14 GMT
‘Adolf Hitler Meets His ATL Communist Counterpart’. What a death battle that’d ensue between the two Fuhrers, I bet. How old are they, doubt Hitler of OTL in his last days is going to be a match for a younger Communist version of him.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 23, 2020 15:21:50 GMT
‘Adolf Hitler Meets His ATL Communist Counterpart’. What a death battle that’d ensue between the two Fuhrers, I bet.
Even more fun, in a dark way, have the two swapped over, with some intel for each so their not immediately exposed. See how each might decide to screw over their 'new' state even more than their original one.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Apr 23, 2020 19:16:13 GMT
‘Adolf Hitler Meets His ATL Communist Counterpart’. What a death battle that’d ensue between the two Fuhrers, I bet. How old are they, doubt Hitler of OTL in his last days is going to be a match for a younger Communist version of him. I’m thinking they’d be the same age. The specifics of Communist Hitler’s rise and leadership remain indeterminate to me, though (other than him being a similarly deranged and destructive maniac who provokes violent revolutions and wars of his own).
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 23, 2020 19:19:44 GMT
How old are they, doubt Hitler of OTL in his last days is going to be a match for a younger Communist version of him. I’m thinking they’d be the same age. The specifics of Communist Hitler’s rise and leadership remain indeterminate to me, though (other than him being a similarly deranged and destructive maniac who provokes violent revolutions and wars of his own). A Communist Hitler means you need a democratic Russia, a Republic ore monarchy.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 24, 2020 10:43:48 GMT
I’m thinking they’d be the same age. The specifics of Communist Hitler’s rise and leadership remain indeterminate to me, though (other than him being a similarly deranged and destructive maniac who provokes violent revolutions and wars of his own). A Communist Hitler means you need a democratic Russia, a Republic ore monarchy.
Not necessarily. There were multiple fascist parties in Europe even before Hitlerian Germany made it easy for such groups to come to power and Mussolini especially had a lot more influence that Hitler. Its likely that if Lenin still managed to seize power in Russia and establish his dictatorship that while some communists elsewhere would look to him for leadership others are likely to want to follow their own path. Especially for nations that see themselves as great powers and have an history of rivalry with Russia. [Similarly if Mosley had come to power somehow in Britain as a fascist leader I wouldn't be at all surprised if he sought to distance himself from OTL fascist Hitler simply because he would see Britain as a great power that shouldn't be subordinate to Germany]. As such you might still have a communist Russia which might even help German communists come to power as they tried to do OTL and some of communist Hitler's 1st struggles might be again pro-Moscow communists inside the Germany party.
I'm not saying you still have to have a communist Russia. It could go either way. If you have both powers being communist controlled its likely to cause serious panic in the rest of Europe and probably serious desire to intervene in Germany at least as easier to control, being nearer and a hell of a lot smaller. Alternatively a communist Germany with a non-communist and presumably hostile Russia is likely to be pretty much surrounded by hostile great powers so its chances of survival could be low. [Unless say the revolution in Germany comes during the great depression when other powers have more pressing matters on their mind. Or possibly tension/hostility between a non-communist Russia and a newly independent Poland makes any intervention by either power against a communist Germany difficult/impossible.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 24, 2020 10:45:58 GMT
A Communist Hitler means you need a democratic Russia, a Republic ore monarchy. Not necessarily. There were multiple fascist parties in Europe even before Hitlerian Germany made it easy for such groups to come to power and Mussolini especially had a lot more influence that Hitler. Its likely that if Lenin still managed to seize power in Russia and establish his dictatorship that while some communists elsewhere would look to him for leadership others are likely to want to follow their own path. Especially for nations that see themselves as great powers and have an history of rivalry with Russia. [Similarly if Mosley had come to power somehow in Britain as a fascist leader I wouldn't be at all surprised if he sought to distance himself from OTL fascist Hitler simply because he would see Britain as a great power that shouldn't be subordinate to Germany]. As such you might still have a communist Russia which might even help German communists come to power as they tried to do OTL and some of communist Hitler's 1st struggles might be again pro-Moscow communists inside the Germany party. I'm not saying you still have to have a communist Russia. It could go either way. If you have both powers being communist controlled its likely to cause serious panic in the rest of Europe and probably serious desire to intervene in Germany at least as easier to control, being nearer and a hell of a lot smaller. Alternatively a communist Germany with a non-communist and presumably hostile Russia is likely to be pretty much surrounded by hostile great powers so its chances of survival could be low. [Unless say the revolution in Germany comes during the great depression when other powers have more pressing matters on their mind. Or possibly tension/hostility between a non-communist Russia and a newly independent Poland makes any intervention by either power against a communist Germany difficult/impossible. Steve
Well why not place a communist Germany and a Fascist Germany from the year 1940 on a empty world and see who wins, the winner will be the one who will have the best armed forces i guess.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 24, 2020 11:34:47 GMT
Not necessarily. There were multiple fascist parties in Europe even before Hitlerian Germany made it easy for such groups to come to power and Mussolini especially had a lot more influence that Hitler. Its likely that if Lenin still managed to seize power in Russia and establish his dictatorship that while some communists elsewhere would look to him for leadership others are likely to want to follow their own path. Especially for nations that see themselves as great powers and have an history of rivalry with Russia. [Similarly if Mosley had come to power somehow in Britain as a fascist leader I wouldn't be at all surprised if he sought to distance himself from OTL fascist Hitler simply because he would see Britain as a great power that shouldn't be subordinate to Germany]. As such you might still have a communist Russia which might even help German communists come to power as they tried to do OTL and some of communist Hitler's 1st struggles might be again pro-Moscow communists inside the Germany party. I'm not saying you still have to have a communist Russia. It could go either way. If you have both powers being communist controlled its likely to cause serious panic in the rest of Europe and probably serious desire to intervene in Germany at least as easier to control, being nearer and a hell of a lot smaller. Alternatively a communist Germany with a non-communist and presumably hostile Russia is likely to be pretty much surrounded by hostile great powers so its chances of survival could be low. [Unless say the revolution in Germany comes during the great depression when other powers have more pressing matters on their mind. Or possibly tension/hostility between a non-communist Russia and a newly independent Poland makes any intervention by either power against a communist Germany difficult/impossible. Steve
Well why not place a communist Germany and a Fascist Germany from the year 1940 on a empty world and see who wins, the winner will be the one who will have the best armed forces i guess.
I think the only winners would be the world's their taken from. Whoever wins on the empty world their sent to it would still be bad for both Germany's I fear.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 24, 2020 21:26:27 GMT
Well why not place a communist Germany and a Fascist Germany from the year 1940 on a empty world and see who wins, the winner will be the one who will have the best armed forces i guess. I think the only winners would be the world's their taken from. Whoever wins on the empty world their sent to it would still be bad for both Germany's I fear. Steve
True, but i would assume both Germany's would take a different approach to their armed forces.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 25, 2020 10:01:12 GMT
I think the only winners would be the world's their taken from. Whoever wins on the empty world their sent to it would still be bad for both Germany's I fear. Steve
True, but i would assume both Germany's would take a different approach to their armed forces.
True although going by the OTL WWII with Hitler and Stalin they grew closer together. The Soviets initially had more political control with commissars having so much power and a throttling of local initiative as well as idiotic orders from Stalin while the German army had a lot more professionalism and independence. However Stalin loosened the reins a bit whereas as the war turned against the Germans Hitler and the Nazis grew increasingly obsessed with controlling the army in more and more details and increasing the importance of the more ideologically 'pure' SS units which absorbed massive amounts of assets.
If it was like that in this clash then Nazi Germany is likely to win, as neither Germany would have the size to absorb major early territorial losses. However if it didn't then communist Germany, unless totally screwed over by Hitler's insanity, might loosen up and also prove more productive than the Nazi version so could end up on top, albeit after a very bitter struggle. Either way its going to be a grim future for the survivors on both sides. Well unless elements of both sides, probably having to be in the military, seeing an insane Hitler in control in both nations and the other similarities deciding enough is enough and 1st one, then the other is deposed. Even then your likely to have a military dictatorship and neither Germany really has the resources to support its population with the loss of trade links with other powers that would have happened. Although they would probably have a lot more fishery capacity with a world ocean around both states.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 25, 2020 10:41:29 GMT
Do not if it is a Frivolous ASB idea but here i go.
In 1915 the 2nd American Civil War breaks out between the South backed by Germany and the North backed by the united Kingdom and France.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 25, 2020 10:52:39 GMT
Do not if it is a Frivolous ASB idea but here i go. In 1915 the 2nd American Civil War breaks out between the South backed by Germany and the North backed by the united Kingdom and France.
Assuming this is a south which won its independence in the 1860's. A lot would depend on the circumstances. Also are you assuming that WWI is under way as OTL, i.e. the EP and CPs are already at war.
If so again presuming that the north hasn't gone totally to pieces since the 1860's, which is possible but unlikely then its will be markedly stronger than the south so its a net gain for the EPs. Also assuming slavery has ended in the south I would expect that the blacks are still oppressed so are likely to be a fourth column so to speak for allied attacks on the south. One other aspect is that assuming EP control of the seas, which seems pretty certain, they can combine against an isolated south which can't be supported by the CPs.
If your not assuming a WWI already under way then it depends on what 'backed' means but I would still expect a northern victory under most circumstances. Although if the south has avoided major internal problems it could be a long and bloody conflict and might not see a total conquest of the south.
Technically speaking if the south gained independence in the 1860's its not a civil war.
If your suggesting that the country wasn't divided in the 1860's, which just occurred to me, then I can't see a 2nd attempt to gain independence by the south winning here as their now totally outclassed.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 25, 2020 10:57:13 GMT
Do not if it is a Frivolous ASB idea but here i go. In 1915 the 2nd American Civil War breaks out between the South backed by Germany and the North backed by the united Kingdom and France. Assuming this is a south which won its independence in the 1860's. A lot would depend on the circumstances. Also are you assuming that WWI is under way as OTL, i.e. the EP and CPs are already at war. If so again presuming that the north hasn't gone totally to pieces since the 1860's, which is possible but unlikely then its will be markedly stronger than the south so its a net gain for the EPs. Also assuming slavery has ended in the south I would expect that the blacks are still oppressed so are likely to be a fourth column so to speak for allied attacks on the south. One other aspect is that assuming EP control of the seas, which seems pretty certain, they can combine against an isolated south which can't be supported by the CPs. If your not assuming a WWI already under way then it depends on what 'backed' means but I would still expect a northern victory under most circumstances. Although if the south has avoided major internal problems it could be a long and bloody conflict and might not see a total conquest of the south. Technically speaking if the south gained independence in the 1860's its not a civil war. If your suggesting that the country wasn't divided in the 1860's, which just occurred to me, then I can't see a 2nd attempt to gain independence by the south winning here as their now totally outclassed. Steve
Nope just several Southern states decided to go for a round 2.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 25, 2020 12:40:52 GMT
Assuming this is a south which won its independence in the 1860's. A lot would depend on the circumstances. Also are you assuming that WWI is under way as OTL, i.e. the EP and CPs are already at war. If so again presuming that the north hasn't gone totally to pieces since the 1860's, which is possible but unlikely then its will be markedly stronger than the south so its a net gain for the EPs. Also assuming slavery has ended in the south I would expect that the blacks are still oppressed so are likely to be a fourth column so to speak for allied attacks on the south. One other aspect is that assuming EP control of the seas, which seems pretty certain, they can combine against an isolated south which can't be supported by the CPs. If your not assuming a WWI already under way then it depends on what 'backed' means but I would still expect a northern victory under most circumstances. Although if the south has avoided major internal problems it could be a long and bloody conflict and might not see a total conquest of the south. Technically speaking if the south gained independence in the 1860's its not a civil war. If your suggesting that the country wasn't divided in the 1860's, which just occurred to me, then I can't see a 2nd attempt to gain independence by the south winning here as their now totally outclassed. Steve
Nope just several Southern states decided to go for a round 2.
If you means that the 1860's attempt failed and some of them try again now I think the answer would be squash pretty damned quickly. With the exception of Texas which has seen fairly dramatic growth most of the old CSA has seen fairly dramatic relative decline in importance so they would be massively more outnumbered than the earlier attempt in the 1860's. Also with the advance of technology a broad industrial base is even more important and at this stage very little is in the old CSA region.
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