The ISOT thread

[miletus12]

Mar 21, 2023 7:45:54 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

Do we witness a Swedish crusade against Catholic Europe?

First comes Norway and Finland, then Denmark. Then Gus looks around...  

[Otto Kretschmer]

So, what about Sweden from 1617 to 218 BC?

The Second Punic War rages on and Sweden has the means to decisively influence Europe. It's navy can smash any number of triremes and it's army can effortlessly defeat any army in Eurasia

[miletus12]

Mar 21, 2023 15:43:01 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

So, what about Sweden from 1617 to 218 BC?

The Second Punic War rages on and Sweden has the means to decisively influence Europe. It's navy can smash any number of triremes and it's army can effortlessly defeat any army in Eurasia

First Vasa.

Second, see MAP. 


 
As the Romans discovered the hard way, oar galleys tended to stay close to shallow waters and not brave open oceans. Wind and wave, so dictated since SWAMPING or Turtling was a given if you did not have low metacentrics and high gunwales (See Vasa above. M.).  As a corollary to operating in shallow water near land, was the design characteristics of shallow draft and no keel boards or bilge keels. Caracals or galleons had deep drafts and keel boards and bilge keels. (Invented by the Spaniards. M.)

Gun artillery aboard ships (Battle of Lepanto) was what we call modern pistol shot ranged up until the American Civil War. So you were going to have to get in CLOSE. In addition, there were no Paixhan shells, just round shot and the usual incendiaries used (Romans used ballista, onager and catapults to throw hot pitch balls, flaming arrows and assorted other combustibles.), since the days of Salamis. Imagine what happens to a ship on fire when the flames reach the powder magazine? NOT TOO GOOD. 

But the Swedes have superior sailing ships! The Romans have the NUMBERS (Actium they had about 300 warships present; if we believe the accounts.). 
   
The point is that one has to sweat the details out and prepare carefully before one goes a conquering the "savages". Look at what happened to COL Custer against the Lakota, or to GEN Lawton in the Philippine Islands against the Katipunan. 

[575]

Mar 21, 2023 14:56:48 GMT miletus12 said:

Mar 21, 2023 7:45:54 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

Do we witness a Swedish crusade against Catholic Europe?

First comes Norway and Finland, then Denmark. Then Gus looks around...  

He would be a lot smarter letting the Norwegians and Danes off-set the West Europeans as he conquers in the East. Let them wreck havoc and keep his ships at home to deal with any too boistorous Viking..

Except for land there isn't much of worth in Scandinavia - well Norwegian Silver - but thats it. Incorporating those lands takes time - he have to set up the Indelningsverket to increase his Army.

[miletus12]

Mar 21, 2023 17:19:25 GMT 575 said:

Mar 21, 2023 14:56:48 GMT miletus12 said:

First comes Norway and Finland, then Denmark. Then Gus looks around...  

He would be a lot smarter letting the Norwegians and Danes off-set the West Europeans as he conquers in the East. Let them wreck havoc and keep his ships at home to deal with any too boistorous Viking..

Except for land there isn't much of worth in Scandinavia - well Norwegian Silver - but thats it. Incorporating those lands takes time - he have to set up the Indelningsverket to increase his Army.

The allotment system? I do not know that system well. It was my understanding that foot soldiers were raised from groups of farmers with 1 unlucky soul being selected to meet the quota, while the others took care of his family and farm while he went off to play "spearman" or musketeer. Horsemen were given a tax break when they supplied the horses, the arms and themselves for service. The artillery, both guns and gunners Gus supplied. The navy was nobles led, coastal fishermen press ganged  and Gus supplied the ships or hired the ships they used.

The big problems Gus will face will be a low Swedish population, little industrial infrastructure, a small army, a big empty space and Vikings. Those were the SAME problems my nation faced, except the Native Americans replaced the Vikings.   

We took it slow and nibbled at it, only risking one big foreign war when we had no choice. It took us about 100 years to make to the Pacific and ensure we were there to stay. If you substitute the Franks for Mexico and the Byzantines for British Canada, I think Gus would reach the same conclusions Madison reached. Nice and slow and do not chew more than you can swallow.      
      

[575]

Mar 21, 2023 17:42:25 GMT miletus12 said:

Mar 21, 2023 17:19:25 GMT 575 said:

He would be a lot smarter letting the Norwegians and Danes off-set the West Europeans as he conquers in the East. Let them wreck havoc and keep his ships at home to deal with any too boistorous Viking..

Except for land there isn't much of worth in Scandinavia - well Norwegian Silver - but thats it. Incorporating those lands takes time - he have to set up the Indelningsverket to increase his Army.

The allotment system? I do not know that system well. It was my understanding that foot soldiers were raised from groups of farmers with 1 unlucky soul being selected to meet the quota, while the others took care of his family and farm while he went off to play "spearman" or musketeer. Horsemen were given a tax break when they supplied the horses, the arms and themselves for service. The artillery, both guns and gunners Gus supplied. The navy was nobles led, coastal fishermen press ganged  and Gus supplied the ships or hired the ships they used.

The big problems Gus will face will be a low Swedish population, little industrial infrastructure, a small army, a big empty space and Vikings. Those were the SAME problems my nation faced, except the Native Americans replaced the Vikings.   

We took it slow and nibbled at it, only risking one big foreign war when we had no choice. It took us about 100 years to make to the Pacific and ensure we were there to stay. If you substitute the Franks for Mexico and the Byzantines for British Canada, I think Gus would reach the same conclusions Madison reached. Nice and slow and do not chew more than you can swallow.      
      

Had to look things up a little - Indelningsverket was a way of using surplus land to build an Army by having groups of farmers pay for a Soldier - Uniform and Weapons - in return getting taxfree and free of military service. The King alotted farmland for the Soldier in the supporting peasants' area where also Officers would be settled. Those troops would regularly drill making for a much more diciplined Army than one of conscripted Peasants.

The Soldiers themselves had to tax the peasants so Government didn't have that to worry about.

Cavalry provided by Nobility or Farmers able to field one horseman.

The system comprised 20,000 Infantry and 3,000 Cavalry.

The soldiers wife would run the farm when Dad's off for service.

It was also used to pay off other State servants such as Priests and Civil servants as the State lacked funds but had plenty land.

Vikings: at the time in Denmark a population that would by 900 have grown to about 900,000 or almost that of Swedens. Add to this a Norwegian slightly less.

[stevep]

   Just one nasty thought with Sweden sent back in time. Would there be any bubonic plague present?  Think Europeans were starting to build up a level of resistance to it by this time but it was definitely still about and for either 783AD or 218 BC it would cut through Europe and neighbouring areas like a nightmare.  Do recall reading in the north it hit Norway very hard and the population never really recovered which was a major reason why Norway went from contenting with Denmark and Sweden to being a possession squabbled over between the two of them.

[575]

Mar 22, 2023 15:50:08 GMT stevep said:

   Just one nasty thought with Sweden sent back in time. Would there be any bubonic plague present?  Think Europeans were starting to build up a level of resistance to it by this time but it was definitely still about and for either 783AD or 218 BC it would cut through Europe and neighbouring areas like a nightmare.  Do recall reading in the north it hit Norway very hard and the population never really recovered which was a major reason why Norway went from contenting with Denmark and Sweden to being a possession squabbled over between the two of them.

There was the Justinian Plague of 542 and the Middle Ages one 1346-7. During the latter Norway was hard hit because it had to import cereals and the epidemic followed the cereal transports. Norway had recovered around the Napoleonic Wars but post Copenhagen Bombardment by the Brits and robbing of the Navy there was no way of transporting cereals up there (except what was allowed to travel through Swedish waters) which took a huge toll on the population and it just didn't recover.

Don't know about 218 BC and 783 AD.

The early outbreaks seem to have been during Neolithic and Bronze Age and some lesser outbreaks may have gone under the radar.

Edit: regarding 783 AD I had a note about a famine in Europe - hadn't noted the source though. Found this (down about middle of website) which might have had increased lethality due to famine. An Influenza-like epidemic.

[stevep]

Mar 22, 2023 16:51:12 GMT 575 said:

Mar 22, 2023 15:50:08 GMT stevep said:

   Just one nasty thought with Sweden sent back in time. Would there be any bubonic plague present?  Think Europeans were starting to build up a level of resistance to it by this time but it was definitely still about and for either 783AD or 218 BC it would cut through Europe and neighbouring areas like a nightmare.  Do recall reading in the north it hit Norway very hard and the population never really recovered which was a major reason why Norway went from contenting with Denmark and Sweden to being a possession squabbled over between the two of them.

There was the Justinian Plague of 542 and the Middle Ages one 1346-7. During the latter Norway was hard hit because it had to import cereals and the epidemic followed the cereal transports. Norway had recovered around the Napoleonic Wars but post Copenhagen Bombardment by the Brits and robbing of the Navy there was no way of transporting cereals up there (except what was allowed to travel through Swedish waters) which took a huge toll on the population and it just didn't recover.

Don't know about 218 BC and 783 AD.

The early outbreaks seem to have been during Neolithic and Bronze Age and some lesser outbreaks may have gone under the radar.

Edit: regarding 783 AD I had a note about a famine in Europe - hadn't noted the source though. Found this (down about middle of website) which might have had increased lethality due to famine. An Influenza-like epidemic.

  Very interesting thanks.  Quite a lot more waves of illness being reported in Ireland than I was aware of! Quite possibly you could have nasty effects going both ways.

  I'm not sure whether Justinian's plague was related to an earlier form of bubonic plague as seen different suggests as to what it might have been.  if it was bubonic it could be different enough that it affects the Swedes - if still present a couple of centuries later for an 783 ISOT - and that it doesn't give much protection to the DTers from the Swedish version.

[Otto Kretschmer]

Germany from 1913 to 1933

[Otto Kretschmer]

WI: Falkland islands from 2019 to 1000 AD.

What fate awaits the 2000 or so inhabitants of the islands?

[mspence]

US states ISOT from 1800 to 1500 AD
West Germany 1969 ISOT to 1948
Japan 1956 ISOT to 1853 (time of Perry's landing)
Based on my earlier Canada ISOT idea: Canada 2000 ISOT to 1865

[Otto Kretschmer]

Albania from 1980 ISOT to 27 BC

In 1980 Enver Hozha is still alive and Albanian army is pretty strong - over 100,000 active troops plus 700,000 reserves.

In this scenario there is no reason for Albania to just stay and watch. It is going to seize at least significant parts of Europe just to spread communism.

But how much exactly? Is seizing all of Roman Empire feasible?

[miletus12]

Jul 23, 2023 12:07:25 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

Albania from 1980 ISOT to 27 BC

In 1980 Enver Hozha is still alive and Albanian army is pretty strong - over 100,000 active troops plus 700,000 reserves.

In this scenario there is no reason for Albania to just stay and watch. It is going to seize at least significant parts of Europe just to spread communism.

But how much exactly? Is seizing all of Roman Empire feasible?

Until they run out of fuel and bullets, and then the Romans come for them. 

[Otto Kretschmer]

Bulgaria from 1988 ISOT to June 1st 1941