The ISOT thread

[gillan1220]

May 10, 2024 2:18:42 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

gillan1220

The Spanish in the Philippines are on their own. This is what this scenario is all about.

I think they may also colonize Japan.

By the way, do you know what native Filipino ships looked like? I doubt there are many European ships in the Philippines in 1650 AD.

Japan was under Muromachi Period is when Christianity reached Kyushu.

Filipino boats are called bangkas or balangays and they looked like these: 


Important to note that pre-hispanic Filipinos used these boats to trade within the archipelago and neighboring states. 

[Otto Kretschmer]

gillan1220

We ISOT 1650 AD Philippines to 650 BC. In 650 BC Japan is still in the hunter gathering Jomon period. It wasn't until 300 BC that the agricultural Yayoi people (the ancestors of the Japanese) started to arrive.

So 650 BC Japan is ripe for taking for the Spanish Philippines. I guess so is Taiwan, most of the Malay archipelago and on the longer term, Australia and New Zealand.

[stevep]

May 9, 2024 11:02:07 GMT 575 said:

May 9, 2024 9:30:32 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

Scenario 1:
Soviet Far East (including all troops) from 9 August 1945 (the day of the Manchurian Operation started) ISOT to June 22 1941

Soviet troops in the Far East at the time
1,577,725 troops
27,086 artillery pieces
1,152 rocket launchers
5,556 tanks and self-propelled guns
3,721 aircraft

ISOT is from exactly 1 second before the start of the operation so the Soviet troops actually attack the Japanese troops in 1941 Manchuria

Scenario 2
Moscow city and Moscow oblast from June 1 1985 to June 1 1941. If there are nuclear weapons in or around Moscow in 1985, they're not ISOTed
stevep

Sc 1: Though the Soviets will soon be able to move a large part of the Army west some have to be kept to liberate Manchuria and Korea as well as lending the KMT a helping hand.

Problem - this put Japan in war with the Soviets so L-L won't initially (depending upon circumstances) go to Vladivostok. The Japanese may not be at war with the US but with an intact IJN this will be problematic.

The Soviet Army had been able to march east OTL so it will not encumber the Trans-Siberian RR when moving west - unless Stalin won't them back fast. He may that.

Sc 2: posed to stevep so won't answer!

However - from what I have available the 4 Guards Tank Division - a reserve unit - would mobilize at Moscow also there would be an Army HQ. Probably also some Interceptors though Matthias Rust haven't made his flight yet and some SAM's.

Gorbachev have come to power 11 March and is about to launch a restictive campaign on alcohol consumption will soon have other things on his mind. At least a more humane rule than Stalin and the other blockheads will make the peoples wanting to follow his lead though strong forces within the CPSU may have other thoughts.

Sc1 - Since Soviet forces do attack Japan - had missed the footnote about the ISOT being only a second before the attack on Japan - is launched things are somewhat complex.  Japan will suffer heavy losses although I think they had more forces in Manchuria in 1941 than they had in 1945.  Also its going to be awkward to withdraw the force once the fighting begins.  Given that Stalin would then find himself at war with both the European Axis and the Japanese empire.  Which will complicate matters for everybody.  To the outside world it will be seen as the Soviets attacking Japan without warning just before they get back-stabbed by their European friends.  Which raises certain questions.

a)  Does Japan declare war on the western allies? - Probably not.

b)  Does Britain declare war on Japan - again probably not.

c)  Does Britain decide to support the Soviets against the Germans?  Probably but possibly not without some questions in London and a definite desire not to become embroiled in a war with Japan at this point, especially since that conflict has been started by the Soviets and apparently deliberately.  It might be that the Soviets will present details of what 'happened' in the period 1941-1945 but without clear supporting evidence from western sources the western powers may be dubious about this.  As such there could be opposition in the US especially to sending L-L to the Soviet so the non-availability of Vladivostok could be a moot point.

d)  What now happens in the Pacific.  Does Japan engaged in fighting with the Soviets seek war with the western allies?  Probably if the US still imposes the OTL embargoes but probably not if it doesn't, depending on what is happening.

e)  If Japan doesn't strike south then the British and Dutch position positions in SEA are secure with the resultant increase in resources and no losses to other fronts because of the war there.  What happens with the US?  Probably with continuing tensions in the Atlantic the US ends up at war with the European Axis within a year or so but without a clear attack from Japan and Hitler then declaring war on the US the latter's commitment to the war could be somewhat less.

f)  In such a situation does the US declare war on Japan as well?  Technically they could do as a de facto ally of the Soviets who are already at war with Japan and given their hostility towards Japanese actions in China.  However its far from certain if the initial trigger for the war was in Europe and if the resultant war in Siberia means Japanese pressure on China has declined and also the British and Dutch will be eager to avoid a Pacific war on top of their current problems.

  This situation could be bad for the USSR, possibly even more so than OTL.  While the 45 forces are powerful they have limitations on their endurance at least until relevant equipment can be produced and their initially stuck in a war the other side of the USSR with limited capacity to move them westwards in numbers.  If Japan and the US don't end up at war in the next year or so they could avoid it until possibly the European war is completed and with less L-L or possibly none at all while the Soviets are unlikely to collapse totally they could fail to make anything like the OTL comeback in 43-45.  Which in turn would make the war in Germany tougher for the western powers but without the Pacific commitments they should be able to do better, even with a weaker USSR, although this could mean their losses in Europe would be heavier.  With Britain being in a stronger position compared to the US until the latter is fully mobilized and the different circumstances you could see more operations in the Med before an invasion of N France.  However a hell of a lot could happen.

sc2 - A lot depends on how quickly or not Gorbachev's Moscow gets some agreement with [post] Stalin's USSR and how much Moscow 1985 is self-sufficient cut off from its 1985 hinterland. Also how much chaos and disorder occurs in the 45 USSR with Stalin, the capital and much of the ruling elite removed and possibly fighting over the leadership coupled with the German invasion things could go very badly.

  On the plus side if there are some reliable nukes and the ability to deploy them accurately that could well be a game changer that makes things vastly different.  Also if they can deploy them effectively 85 Moscow have significant possible resources in terms of knowledge and communications possibilities.

[575]

May 10, 2024 9:16:46 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

1939 Denmark ISOT to 1521 AD, the beginning of the Swedish War of Independence.

This is something for you 575 since you're Danish

Now aren't You naughty!

All right this isn't uninteresting.
Beginning of Swedish War of Independence – actually Gustav Vasa had become the leader of the Swedes during the early part of the year but the first battle didn't occur till early April. Prior to this Vasa had ordered the capture of the weapons furnaces at Falun north of Stockholm which took off 5 February and completed the task.

So Denmark of 1939 arrive on 5 February 1521 I understand from the OP.

Important to note is that Protestantism is on the march in Europe as Luther 1517 had written his theses on Indulgence – Denmark of 1939 is a Lutheran-Protestant Country.

Denmark and Sweden 1520

Denmark of 1939 is of course smaller than this Denmark. This will make for some initial confusion but Denmark have P. Munch as Foreign Minister – Dr. Phil of History – who will know what its all about.
Denmark also have Christian X as King who will be much satisfied of adding Norway, Scania, Halland, Blekinga, Gotland and South Schleswig to his Kingdom.

Denmark of 1939 have a population of 3,395,000.
1521 the World is estimated to have had a population of 500,000,000 of which 78,000,000 is estimated to live in Europe i.e. Denmark would then account for little more then 4% perhaps 5% if the areas on the map is all counted in.

Denmark of 1939 is usually referred to as an Agricultural Nation but it was also an Industrial Nation basically able to build itself whats needed to run society. Problem being raw materials. However adding Norway will provide copper, chromium, manganese tin, zinc, silver, pyrite, carbide, iron ore, talc, stock fish, timbers, woodpulp, carbide. Not in modern quantities but perhaps enough to get Danish Industry going. Denmark as shown in my TL A Window of Opportunity 1905 does have the means like electrofurnaces to make steel.
Coal is missing which will be a problem during winter though Denmark have been in the process of stockpiling resources in anticipation of a major European war. The Armed Forces are also ready for defending the territory.

The Government of Denmarks 1939 won't be going to fight the Swedes rather it will be bestowing freedom upon the Swedes that will be mightily baffled.
As is visible in the map the Swedish Ironore field isn't part of Sweden at this point and I'd expect Denmark to lay claim and let the Norwegian Army occupy the area. Then it is a question of having Norwegian miners and Danish engineers pinpoint the area – maps I expect to be available. The Swedish Minister to Copenhagen may disagree but this is a question of National importance – as will Svalbard be with the coalmine.

Having let the Swedes go Norway and the other lands marked as Danish in the map will be claimed to be uplift to modernity and serve the Nation – the Baltic Islands important in providing control of Trade there by combatting piracy.

Holstein is something of an issue; OTL Denmark by 1521 got control of it by Imperial consent – I don't see that as an important issue but South Schleswig will be kept.

Next on the agenda – oil! No knowledge is around of the North Sea or Europe except in Galizia and Romania/Wallachia. Nor in the Middle East but in the Persian Gulf, NEI and Texas. The ladder will be free for picking but perhaps the Danes will prefer Pennsylvania for the climate?

[Otto Kretschmer]

1989 Denmark ISOT to 1864.

Danish ORBAT for 1989 is easily available on the web - other than obviously whooping the Prussians hard, will the 1989 Denmark do something to prevent the unification of Germany? Knowing the horrors of ww1 and ww2 and the general perils of nationalism might be a motivation for this.

Danish ORBAT in 1989 en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_the_Danish_Armed_Forces_at_the_end_of_the_Cold_War

[575]

May 10, 2024 18:02:16 GMT 575 said:

May 10, 2024 9:16:46 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

1939 Denmark ISOT to 1521 AD, the beginning of the Swedish War of Independence.

This is something for you 575 since you're Danish

Now aren't You naughty!

All right this isn't uninteresting.
Beginning of Swedish War of Independence – actually Gustav Vasa had become the leader of the Swedes during the early part of the year but the first battle didn't occur till early April. Prior to this Vasa had ordered the capture of the weapons furnaces at Falun north of Stockholm which took off 5 February and completed the task.

So Denmark of 1939 arrive on 5 February 1521 I understand from the OP.

Important to note is that Protestantism is on the march in Europe as Luther 1517 had written his theses on Indulgence – Denmark of 1939 is a Lutheran-Protestant Country.

Denmark and Sweden 1520

Denmark of 1939 is of course smaller than this Denmark. This will make for some initial confusion but Denmark have P. Munch as Foreign Minister – Dr. Phil of History – who will know what its all about.
Denmark also have Christian X as King who will be much satisfied of adding Norway, Scania, Halland, Blekinga, Gotland and South Schleswig to his Kingdom.

Denmark of 1939 have a population of 3,395,000.
1521 the World is estimated to have had a population of 500,000,000 of which 78,000,000 is estimated to live in Europe i.e. Denmark would then account for little more then 4% perhaps 5% if the areas on the map is all counted in.

Denmark of 1939 is usually referred to as an Agricultural Nation but it was also an Industrial Nation basically able to build itself whats needed to run society. Problem being raw materials. However adding Norway will provide copper, chromium, manganese tin, zinc, silver, pyrite, carbide, iron ore, talc, stock fish, timbers, woodpulp, carbide. Not in modern quantities but perhaps enough to get Danish Industry going. Denmark as shown in my TL A Window of Opportunity 1905 does have the means like electrofurnaces to make steel.
Coal is missing which will be a problem during winter though Denmark have been in the process of stockpiling resources in anticipation of a major European war. The Armed Forces are also ready for defending the territory.

The Government of Denmarks 1939 won't be going to fight the Swedes rather it will be bestowing freedom upon the Swedes that will be mightily baffled.
As is visible in the map the Swedish Ironore field isn't part of Sweden at this point and I'd expect Denmark to lay claim and let the Norwegian Army occupy the area. Then it is a question of having Norwegian miners and Danish engineers pinpoint the area – maps I expect to be available. The Swedish Minister to Copenhagen may disagree but this is a question of National importance – as will Svalbard be with the coalmine.

Having let the Swedes go Norway and the other lands marked as Danish in the map will be claimed to be uplift to modernity and serve the Nation – the Baltic Islands important in providing control of Trade there by combatting piracy.

Holstein is something of an issue; OTL Denmark by 1521 got control of it by Imperial consent – I don't see that as an important issue but South Schleswig will be kept.

Next on the agenda – oil! No knowledge is around of the North Sea or Europe except in Galizia and Romania/Wallachia. Nor in the Middle East but in the Persian Gulf, NEI and Texas. The ladder will be free for picking but perhaps the Danes will prefer Pennsylvania for the climate?

One thing that may upset the Danish plans for a peacefull settlement and control of trade will be religion. Luther had been summoned to the Imperial Diet this year declared an outlaw but managed to slip away and the Reformation/counter-Reformation and ultimately 30 Years War will be looming on the horizon.

Denmark depending upon the view in Europe of its appearance - be it Divine or Devilish - will have a lot of significance. To the Reformist's it may well look Divine to the Catholic Church the opposite. Denmarks attempts at informing of the effects of the TYW may fall on barren ground though if it comes to fighting Denmark will hold the land border and keep Catholic ships off its waters.

Danish forces will have no problem in defeating Catholic Armies with its weaponry that may be replenished locally once things go down the drain. The problem will be powerprojection into the Germanies except along major rivers. Denmark still have a working industry building Sailing Ships along steam- and dieselpowered one's. It also have a train building capacity and a small mainly truck manufacturing basis. Tarmacing roads was a major industry in country.

Given time South Schleswig will become linked up with the Kingdom by modern roads and railways. Also the lands in southern Sweden and Norway will see railways building though mainly Sweden except the Iron ore line from Narvik to Kiruna in north Norway!

[575]

May 11, 2024 8:05:30 GMT 575 said:

May 10, 2024 18:02:16 GMT 575 said:

Now aren't You naughty!

All right this isn't uninteresting.
Beginning of Swedish War of Independence – actually Gustav Vasa had become the leader of the Swedes during the early part of the year but the first battle didn't occur till early April. Prior to this Vasa had ordered the capture of the weapons furnaces at Falun north of Stockholm which took off 5 February and completed the task.

So Denmark of 1939 arrive on 5 February 1521 I understand from the OP.

Important to note is that Protestantism is on the march in Europe as Luther 1517 had written his theses on Indulgence – Denmark of 1939 is a Lutheran-Protestant Country.

Denmark and Sweden 1520

Denmark of 1939 is of course smaller than this Denmark. This will make for some initial confusion but Denmark have P. Munch as Foreign Minister – Dr. Phil of History – who will know what its all about.
Denmark also have Christian X as King who will be much satisfied of adding Norway, Scania, Halland, Blekinga, Gotland and South Schleswig to his Kingdom.

Denmark of 1939 have a population of 3,395,000.
1521 the World is estimated to have had a population of 500,000,000 of which 78,000,000 is estimated to live in Europe i.e. Denmark would then account for little more then 4% perhaps 5% if the areas on the map is all counted in.

Denmark of 1939 is usually referred to as an Agricultural Nation but it was also an Industrial Nation basically able to build itself whats needed to run society. Problem being raw materials. However adding Norway will provide copper, chromium, manganese tin, zinc, silver, pyrite, carbide, iron ore, talc, stock fish, timbers, woodpulp, carbide. Not in modern quantities but perhaps enough to get Danish Industry going. Denmark as shown in my TL A Window of Opportunity 1905 does have the means like electrofurnaces to make steel.
Coal is missing which will be a problem during winter though Denmark have been in the process of stockpiling resources in anticipation of a major European war. The Armed Forces are also ready for defending the territory.

The Government of Denmarks 1939 won't be going to fight the Swedes rather it will be bestowing freedom upon the Swedes that will be mightily baffled.
As is visible in the map the Swedish Ironore field isn't part of Sweden at this point and I'd expect Denmark to lay claim and let the Norwegian Army occupy the area. Then it is a question of having Norwegian miners and Danish engineers pinpoint the area – maps I expect to be available. The Swedish Minister to Copenhagen may disagree but this is a question of National importance – as will Svalbard be with the coalmine.

Having let the Swedes go Norway and the other lands marked as Danish in the map will be claimed to be uplift to modernity and serve the Nation – the Baltic Islands important in providing control of Trade there by combatting piracy.

Holstein is something of an issue; OTL Denmark by 1521 got control of it by Imperial consent – I don't see that as an important issue but South Schleswig will be kept.

Next on the agenda – oil! No knowledge is around of the North Sea or Europe except in Galizia and Romania/Wallachia. Nor in the Middle East but in the Persian Gulf, NEI and Texas. The ladder will be free for picking but perhaps the Danes will prefer Pennsylvania for the climate?

One thing that may upset the Danish plans for a peacefull settlement and control of trade will be religion. Luther had been summoned to the Imperial Diet this year declared an outlaw but managed to slip away and the Reformation/counter-Reformation and ultimately 30 Years War will be looming on the horizon.

Denmark depending upon the view in Europe of its appearance - be it Divine or Devilish - will have a lot of significance. To the Reformist's it may well look Divine to the Catholic Church the opposite. Denmarks attempts at informing of the effects of the TYW may fall on barren ground though if it comes to fighting Denmark will hold the land border and keep Catholic ships off its waters.

Danish forces will have no problem in defeating Catholic Armies with its weaponry that may be replenished locally once things go down the drain. The problem will be powerprojection into the Germanies except along major rivers. Denmark still have a working industry building Sailing Ships along steam- and dieselpowered one's. It also have a train building capacity and a small mainly truck manufacturing basis. Tarmacing roads was a major industry in country.

Given time South Schleswig will become linked up with the Kingdom by modern roads and railways. Also the lands in southern Sweden and Norway will see railways building though mainly Sweden except the Iron ore line from Narvik to Kiruna in north Norway!

Actually according to the particion of the Duchies 1490 Duke Frederik chose the Gottorp parts and the King got the Segeberg parts – map:

Duke Frederiks Gottorp residence Gottorp Castle was at the City of Schleswig in Slesvig while the Royal residence Segeberg Castle was in Holstein.
The rule of the two Duchies were thus participated in this way with some parts in Slesvig being from old directly ruled by the King and Ditmarsken (grey small part) was a Frisian ”Peasant Republic”.
Striped areas are those jointly ruled which were home to the major estate owners – the Ritterschaft – most probably to remind these of the dual obligations to Duke and King of Denmark.

Also at this time Heligoland was reckoned as part of Slesvig.

[stevep]

  575 ,

  As you say religion will be a huge factor.  Don't know how much of Scandinavia have swung towards Lutherism yet, probably not a lot.  1939 Denmark will be willing to offer religious tolerance in the lands they seek to take over but many down-timers, on both sides of the divide but especially the Catholic one are unlikely to accept this so early into the reformation. 

  Its also going to have impacts around Europe at least.  For England I wonder how people will react to news of the country going Protestant and why - to get a heir for Henry VIII when Catherine of Aragon couldn't supply a son for Henry.  Ditto with Scotland and what happens with Mary Queen of Scots and her shortcoming and the rising of the Kirk's in prominence.  Ditto with the Dutch revolt which wasn't under way yet IIRC and how many other nations are torn by the conflict and gone one way or another.

  How much of a struggle would it be with the lands you foresee Denmark keeping from the Kalmar Union?  Need to try and upgrade them both technologically and culturally and going to have issues with matters such as education, women's rights, the end of slavery and the like.  Also for the lands that are now part of Sweden what was the linguistic character of those provinces then?  Would the 39Denmark seek to revive the levy on ships going through the straits?  A hell of a lot of issues that would come up.

[Otto Kretschmer]

1. 25th June 2017 Washington DC ISOT to 25th June 1950 How does 1950 US with Trump in power react to the Korean War?

2. January 1988 US ISOT to January 1948. How does the US with 40 year tech advantage deal with the Cold War?

[gillan1220]

May 11, 2024 15:17:37 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

1. 25th June 2017 Washington DC ISOT to 25th June 1950 How does 1950 US with Trump in power react to the Korean War?

2. January 1988 US ISOT to January 1948. How does the US with 40 year tech advantage deal with the Cold War?

1. But no UT tech except what D.C. National Guard units in the area? Or does this include the DMV which includes Andrews Air Base and Norfolk Naval Base? I wonder how 4 year old DT Trump and his father Fred react to 2017 Trump being the President. Without access to UT nuclear weapons, Trump has no way to threaten the DT North Koreans (My rocket is bigger than his).

2. 1988 U.S. can definitely send a message to the DT USSR. This butterflies the Berlin Crisis when the Soviets see the B-52s, B-1s, the USS Enterprise, three Nimitz-class carriers, nuclear-armed submarines, and ICBMs from the Dakotas.

[575]

May 11, 2024 11:46:52 GMT stevep said:

  575 ,

  As you say religion will be a huge factor.  Don't know how much of Scandinavia have swung towards Lutherism yet, probably not a lot.  1939 Denmark will be willing to offer religious tolerance in the lands they seek to take over but many down-timers, on both sides of the divide but especially the Catholic one are unlikely to accept this so early into the reformation. 

  Its also going to have impacts around Europe at least.  For England I wonder how people will react to news of the country going Protestant and why - to get a heir for Henry VIII when Catherine of Aragon couldn't supply a son for Henry.  Ditto with Scotland and what happens with Mary Queen of Scots and her shortcoming and the rising of the Kirk's in prominence.  Ditto with the Dutch revolt which wasn't under way yet IIRC and how many other nations are torn by the conflict and gone one way or another.

  How much of a struggle would it be with the lands you foresee Denmark keeping from the Kalmar Union?  Need to try and upgrade them both technologically and culturally and going to have issues with matters such as education, women's rights, the end of slavery and the like.  Also for the lands that are now part of Sweden what was the linguistic character of those provinces then?  Would the 39Denmark seek to revive the levy on ships going through the straits?  A hell of a lot of issues that would come up.

Reformation was brewing in Northern Europe. In Denmark both Christian II and his successor Frederik I was Catholic but not adverse to Protestantism and it was much appealing to the Merchants. But both Christian and Frederik knew they had to tread easy!

Launching 1939 Denmark into the soup will be something of a shock. I certainly don't see the Danish Government wanting to set off the TYW the next minute but they just might!

During the last years of Christian II's rule he went to Norway which offered him support - but that might have been to him as the King not necessarily as a Catholic and his sympathies might have been known at the time.

Actually the Jutish Nobility wanted Frederik I as King though he also harnessed Protestant sympathies. He actually protected at least one leading Clergyman from Catholic Church prosecution.

Scania and the other Southern Swedish Provinces was really Danish at this time. They had been fought over a few times but Denmark hadn't been losing them yet. The dialect will be different as it is but the peoples think of themselves as if not Danes then Danish Subjects - and 1939 Denmark still have a ruling King.

Norway used to be the Personal Demesne of the King of Denmark - think it was still at this time - but as in other parts of this late feudal world there was internal conflicts of Clergy, Nobility and Merchants.

There was no longer slavery except prison inmates being termed such.

Sound Due is in effect - known to all the civilized World, why change it? Guess the Danish Government may want to do so to show its good intentions but its been in effect since 1429 so everybody know they have to anchor at Elsinore and appear at the Toll Building to pay for moving into or out of the Baltic - and only at Elsinore.

It wasn't till 1801 that those devil Brits dared survey the Great Bealt to know if the Ships of the Line could pass through it.

Don't know off memory that much about the various actors like Britain but surely a lot would go different.

Guess Henry VIII might use the appearance of a Christian Nation not subservient to Rome to push ahead - unless he thinks its devilry. Which I've already pointed to.

Though it would be interesting.

[stevep]

May 11, 2024 15:17:37 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

1. 25th June 2017 Washington DC ISOT to 25th June 1950 How does 1950 US with Trump in power react to the Korean War?

2. January 1988 US ISOT to January 1948. How does the US with 40 year tech advantage deal with the Cold War?

1)  Trump is only President of Washington DC.  Assuming he's in that region when the ISOT occurs he has no mandate from the US population of 1950.  If either Truman or his VC are outside DC and hence still about they would be the actual President, both in the view of the US population [and constitution] and the rest of the world.  There will be a lot of confusion, especially since your decapitated so much of the government infrastructure and because of the political and social changes that the UTers will report to the world of 1950.

2)  We're still in the last year of Reagan so expect the destruction of the Warsaw Pact and quite possibly the USSR.  Whether nukes are used - possibly at least a few to get Stalin deposed - and how many would depend on the circumstances.  Possibly also ditto with China and N Korea given Mao is in power in the former and the Kim dynasty are such a nightmare, along with knowledge of the 1950 attack from the latter.

[stevep]

May 11, 2024 16:46:33 GMT 575 said:

May 11, 2024 11:46:52 GMT stevep said:

  575 ,

  As you say religion will be a huge factor.  Don't know how much of Scandinavia have swung towards Lutherism yet, probably not a lot.  1939 Denmark will be willing to offer religious tolerance in the lands they seek to take over but many down-timers, on both sides of the divide but especially the Catholic one are unlikely to accept this so early into the reformation. 

  Its also going to have impacts around Europe at least.  For England I wonder how people will react to news of the country going Protestant and why - to get a heir for Henry VIII when Catherine of Aragon couldn't supply a son for Henry.  Ditto with Scotland and what happens with Mary Queen of Scots and her shortcoming and the rising of the Kirk's in prominence.  Ditto with the Dutch revolt which wasn't under way yet IIRC and how many other nations are torn by the conflict and gone one way or another.

  How much of a struggle would it be with the lands you foresee Denmark keeping from the Kalmar Union?  Need to try and upgrade them both technologically and culturally and going to have issues with matters such as education, women's rights, the end of slavery and the like.  Also for the lands that are now part of Sweden what was the linguistic character of those provinces then?  Would the 39Denmark seek to revive the levy on ships going through the straits?  A hell of a lot of issues that would come up.

Reformation was brewing in Northern Europe. In Denmark both Christian II and his successor Frederik I was Catholic but not adverse to Protestantism and it was much appealing to the Merchants. But both Christian and Frederik knew they had to tread easy!

Launching 1939 Denmark into the soup will be something of a shock. I certainly don't see the Danish Government wanting to set off the TYW the next minute but they just might!

During the last years of Christian II's rule he went to Norway which offered him support - but that might have been to him as the King not necessarily as a Catholic and his sympathies might have been known at the time.

Actually the Jutish Nobility wanted Frederik I as King though he also harnessed Protestant sympathies. He actually protected at least one leading Clergyman from Catholic Church prosecution.

Scania and the other Southern Swedish Provinces was really Danish at this time. They had been fought over a few times but Denmark hadn't been losing them yet. The dialect will be different as it is but the peoples think of themselves as if not Danes then Danish Subjects - and 1939 Denmark still have a ruling King.

Norway used to be the Personal Demesne of the King of Denmark - think it was still at this time - but as in other parts of this late feudal world there was internal conflicts of Clergy, Nobility and Merchants.

There was no longer slavery except prison inmates being termed such.

Sound Due is in effect - known to all the civilized World, why change it? Guess the Danish Government may want to do so to show its good intentions but its been in effect since 1429 so everybody know they have to anchor at Elsinore and appear at the Toll Building to pay for moving into or out of the Baltic - and only at Elsinore.

It wasn't till 1801 that those devil Brits dared survey the Great Bealt to know if the Ships of the Line could pass through it.

Don't know off memory that much about the various actors like Britain but surely a lot would go different.

Guess Henry VIII might use the appearance of a Christian Nation not subservient to Rome to push ahead - unless he thinks its devilry. Which I've already pointed to.

Though it would be interesting.

a)  I suspect there is a nasty chance this former might occur,  Having this new state magically appearing and spreading news of a reformation that leads to large parts of Europe breaking with the Catholic church - and other nations minimizing its power and influence is going to give the papacy and its supporters kittens and I could easily see it calling for some sort of crusade against 'this demonic state and its evil ideas'.  Not just on religion but also on political rights, democracy, women having a fair amount of rights etc.  Of course such a crusade is likely to fail badly but you could see brutal suppression of the assorted Protestant populations in the unchanged parts of Europe.

b)  Ah good.  I wasn't sure what the situation was but knew there was still feudalism and forced labour in many places, such as France before the revolution and also have read that part of the reason Finland suffered badly in the last stages of the Great Northern War was because many people were carted off as slaves into Russia. - There is actually a possibility here that influence from Denmark39 could negate most of the OTL western slave trade with western Africa, although the Spanish empire will still want its forced labourers in the mines and the like in its empire while as plantations start being constructed for sugar, tobacco and the like as well.

  In terms of Britain I know something because its my own state and I'm interested in history.  Less aware of events in other areas.  Ironically the British monarchy still use the term "defender of the faith" despite the fact that was awarded to Henry XIII by the pope for his criticism of Protestant ideas.  Of course that's before his desire for a male heir and his wife, who he wanted to divorce to get one was the aunt of Charles V, the most powerful man in Catholic Europe, who had more influence on the papacy that England could muster.  There was already interest in Protestantism in England and attempts to produce an English bible which Henry initially opposed. Also Luther himself may not be too welcome in 1939Denmark and vice versa.  All going to be very messy across the continent.

  With the Sound Dues the DTers are used to it and it might provide some useful revenue for 39Denmark but its going to cause confusion when people turn up at Elsinore - especially since the region will look so vastly different to what their used to.  Denmark39 might decide to continue it, drop it or possibly use it as a bargaining issue with some nations to make them less hostile.

  One other thing that would need to be mentioned is how is Denmark39 on antibiotic product.  Penicillin is of course know by this time along with a lot of other medical and health advances but its production was at a very low rate while medieval Europe has a hell of a lot of diseases that by 1939 there were at least some control/treatment for.  Things like plague, smallpox and the like would be an issue. 

[575]

May 12, 2024 11:17:03 GMT stevep said:

May 11, 2024 16:46:33 GMT 575 said:

Reformation was brewing in Northern Europe. In Denmark both Christian II and his successor Frederik I was Catholic but not adverse to Protestantism and it was much appealing to the Merchants. But both Christian and Frederik knew they had to tread easy!

Launching 1939 Denmark into the soup will be something of a shock. I certainly don't see the Danish Government wanting to set off the TYW the next minute but they just might!

During the last years of Christian II's rule he went to Norway which offered him support - but that might have been to him as the King not necessarily as a Catholic and his sympathies might have been known at the time.

Actually the Jutish Nobility wanted Frederik I as King though he also harnessed Protestant sympathies. He actually protected at least one leading Clergyman from Catholic Church prosecution.

Scania and the other Southern Swedish Provinces was really Danish at this time. They had been fought over a few times but Denmark hadn't been losing them yet. The dialect will be different as it is but the peoples think of themselves as if not Danes then Danish Subjects - and 1939 Denmark still have a ruling King.

Norway used to be the Personal Demesne of the King of Denmark - think it was still at this time - but as in other parts of this late feudal world there was internal conflicts of Clergy, Nobility and Merchants.

There was no longer slavery except prison inmates being termed such.

Sound Due is in effect - known to all the civilized World, why change it? Guess the Danish Government may want to do so to show its good intentions but its been in effect since 1429 so everybody know they have to anchor at Elsinore and appear at the Toll Building to pay for moving into or out of the Baltic - and only at Elsinore.

It wasn't till 1801 that those devil Brits dared survey the Great Bealt to know if the Ships of the Line could pass through it.

Don't know off memory that much about the various actors like Britain but surely a lot would go different.

Guess Henry VIII might use the appearance of a Christian Nation not subservient to Rome to push ahead - unless he thinks its devilry. Which I've already pointed to.

Though it would be interesting.

a)  I suspect there is a nasty chance this former might occur,  Having this new state magically appearing and spreading news of a reformation that leads to large parts of Europe breaking with the Catholic church - and other nations minimizing its power and influence is going to give the papacy and its supporters kittens and I could easily see it calling for some sort of crusade against 'this demonic state and its evil ideas'.  Not just on religion but also on political rights, democracy, women having a fair amount of rights etc.  Of course such a crusade is likely to fail badly but you could see brutal suppression of the assorted Protestant populations in the unchanged parts of Europe.

b)  Ah good.  I wasn't sure what the situation was but knew there was still feudalism and forced labour in many places, such as France before the revolution and also have read that part of the reason Finland suffered badly in the last stages of the Great Northern War was because many people were carted off as slaves into Russia. - There is actually a possibility here that influence from Denmark39 could negate most of the OTL western slave trade with western Africa, although the Spanish empire will still want its forced labourers in the mines and the like in its empire while as plantations start being constructed for sugar, tobacco and the like as well.

  In terms of Britain I know something because its my own state and I'm interested in history.  Less aware of events in other areas.  Ironically the British monarchy still use the term "defender of the faith" despite the fact that was awarded to Henry XIII by the pope for his criticism of Protestant ideas.  Of course that's before his desire for a male heir and his wife, who he wanted to divorce to get one was the aunt of Charles V, the most powerful man in Catholic Europe, who had more influence on the papacy that England could muster.  There was already interest in Protestantism in England and attempts to produce an English bible which Henry initially opposed. Also Luther himself may not be too welcome in 1939Denmark and vice versa.  All going to be very messy across the continent.

  With the Sound Dues the DTers are used to it and it might provide some useful revenue for 39Denmark but its going to cause confusion when people turn up at Elsinore - especially since the region will look so vastly different to what their used to.  Denmark39 might decide to continue it, drop it or possibly use it as a bargaining issue with some nations to make them less hostile.

  One other thing that would need to be mentioned is how is Denmark39 on antibiotic product.  Penicillin is of course know by this time along with a lot of other medical and health advances but its production was at a very low rate while medieval Europe has a hell of a lot of diseases that by 1939 there were at least some control/treatment for.  Things like plague, smallpox and the like would be an issue. 

Just one thing - Penicillin - as today Denmark had a very broad Pharmacutical Industri. During the occupation Penicillin was produced locally as Denmark was cut off. There was quite a lot of other advances and Denmark had a tally of Nobel Laureates in Pharmacy/Medicine prior to 1940 as well a certain Nuclear Physicist.

edit: regarding a possible Catholic crusade upon Denmark - it will be an unseen slaughter. TYW army of Wallenstein during 1627 numbered some 30,000, Tilly's 1627 some 20,000 which was during a time when these were living off the land. It would be no match for the Danish 1939 Army - few firearms, mainly a melee force, some cannon for seiges and a lot of Cavalry. This at the end of the Medieval War Period - beginning of the Little Ice Age. Agriculture isn't doing well and thus less troops may be raised and sustained for longer periods.

Armies at the time moved in tight formations due to bad communications preventing them spreading out for movement. Also bad roads contribute to this hence my earlier mentioning of Danish forces not operating far from home and if then inland along a major river to move heavy equipment and supplies.

Denmark have 60,000,000 rounds of Rifle/MG ammunition stored and a factory producing that as well as Artillery shells. Let them come.

[575]

May 10, 2024 18:43:11 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

1989 Denmark ISOT to 1864.

Danish ORBAT for 1989 is easily available on the web - other than obviously whooping the Prussians hard, will the 1989 Denmark do something to prevent the unification of Germany? Knowing the horrors of ww1 and ww2 and the general perils of nationalism might be a motivation for this.

Danish ORBAT in 1989 en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_the_Danish_Armed_Forces_at_the_end_of_the_Cold_War

Yes its a nice ORBAT - the civilian/infrastructur of Denmarks is actually more interesting:

Ammunition Arsenal still in operation - manufacturing munitions and reloading spent cases,

North Sea oil and natural gas online,

2 Steel Works operating,

3 state icebreakers operational,

3 months use of essential means for running society in store,

Railway rolling stock being produced locally.

Storebælt/Great Bealt Bridge has begun building but not operational to trains till 1997, the year after to road traffic.

NATO Reforger depots in Jutland,

NATO 40 years Anniversary this year - all three services training for large NATO exercises to be held during April 1989.

Intelligence: listening stations in several places eavesdropping on WAPA in GDR and Poland as well as surveilling the depts in the Oeresound and two Bealts for moving ships/Submarines.

Prevent unification of Germany - possibly.