The ISOT thread

[Otto Kretschmer]

Armenia with Nagorno Karabakh from September 2019 to September 1914.

[stevep]

May 21, 2024 10:36:11 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

Armenia with Nagorno Karabakh from September 2019 to September 1914.

  Ouch.  Provided that the Russians don't do something bloody stupid - which unfortunately is a possibility - the Turks are in for a world of hurt and WWI probably ends at least a year earlier.  Not sure how much of their technology and military the Armenians can maintain and at what level but there's going to be no Armenian genocide here, at least not within reach of Armenia2019 and its possible there will be at least ethnic cleansing of Turks in greater Armenia.

  The technology and information that the UTers can supply would be big boosts to the allied powers and Turkey is going to be the 1st to suffer but Austria-Hungary and Germany will suffer as well. 

  What's going to be more important in the long run is the broader information available and how many people react to it.  Your also going to have some cases of lead poisoning, or accidental suicide by stabbing yourself 40+ times for certain people in Russia, Germany and elsewhere I suspect.

[Otto Kretschmer]

1938 British Empire ISOT to 1914.

[Zyobot]

‘1860 Southern US To 1776’.

[Otto Kretschmer]

May 22, 2024 0:44:33 GMT Zyobot said:

‘1860 Southern US To 1776’.

Uhh... This is going to be a nasty world. The South single handely wins the Revolutionary War and annexes all pf the US. Both Americas are their turf thdn .

[stevep]

May 22, 2024 4:54:10 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

May 22, 2024 0:44:33 GMT Zyobot said:

‘1860 Southern US To 1776’.

Uhh... This is going to be a nasty world. The South single handely wins the Revolutionary War and annexes all pf the US. Both Americas are their turf thdn .

  I would agree although the south isn't that out of place culturally in 1776.  It would depend on what their attitude is to their neighbours.  With no great pressure to end slavery they have no need for conflict with anyone other than Britain and Spain.  [The latter because to 1776 Spain had control of Louisiana which has now been either lost to the CSA or isolated by that]  Faced with the resources of the south including their industrial power and also the shock of what's happened I think Britain would fight but not for long.  Ironically you could end up with Britain, Spain and the latter's Bourbon ally France all on the same side for a period against this new power but that's probably unlikely.

  Given many in the south viewed themselves as maintaining the policies and ideas of the 'founding fathers' I would expect that they would also support the northern colonists, especially since slavery is also widespread in the northern states.  However they might want precautions about those states becoming dominant and also anti-slavery in the future.  As such you could see them wanting any constitution ensuring slavery and also probably more states rights - although of course those two are contradictory in part.  Or possibly not pushing for the annexation of southern Canada - i.e. the lands between the Ohio and the Great Lakes  to limit the north's scope for expansion.  In turn the northern states may not want to be dependent on/controlled by this new, more powerful south and hence reject the idea of being in any nation they form so you could see some at least of the northern states rejecting joining it.  Could all be complex.  I doubt the south would seek to force those colonies/states into union with them.

  There would be a fair number of people, not just enslaved blacks, who aren't members of the CSA [traders and merchants from the north or overseas] or who have questions about slavery who are likely to want to leave.  They will find the world outside the CSA strange to them but could well be prized assets because of the information they can supply.  - Albeit details about political reform, the French revolution and following chaos and other events are going to be unpopular across much of Europe.  I don't think that Spain would be happy hearing about the loss of virtually all their empire in the America's or the devastation of the Napoleonic occupation for instance.  As such there's going to be a lot of political turmoil at least and possibly in others areas.  I can expect assorted western powers to seek to catch up technologically with the CSA with Britain being in the best position here with the industrial revolution already starting but some other nations will also be useful.  Also there will be news about how quickly the bulk of the west rejected slavery.  - In a way this is a kind of "Guns of the South" on steroids!

  The other issue is when the CSA has secured a result favourable to it in the former British colonies will it look for expansion elsewhere, say claiming the rest of Louisiana - likely - or into the Caribbean/Central America for instance?  I would say the latter is less likely as the south will still be forming its own nation and will suffer economic disruption but prolonged war with either Britain or Spain could be an incentive for such actions.

  The south will have lost much of its markets, especially for cotton and also the ability to import manufacturing goods, whether from the north or Europe so it will have to expand its own production of the latter and face a prolonged drought in the former.  It could try setting up its own cotton factories but that would also take time and money.  However given its no long got a powerful external threat it will have a lot less pressure distracting from this.  Which might also prompt some complacency and infighting in terms of the relative authority of the states compared to the central government, which would be complicated by matters in the north.

[Otto Kretschmer]

1880 AD Utah (population approx. 140,000, including 20,000 in Salt Lake City) ISOT to 1400 AD.

Do we get a Mormon New World?

[stevep]

   A couple of other points that occurred to me on the CSA ISOT.

a)  I suspect that when the dust settled with Britain war with Spain would be very likely.  Both because of lands the CSA has taken over or isolated - not just Louisiana but also Texas - but also their claims on what's now Arizona and New Mexico and a probable strong interest in California, both because of the gold they know is there and also the desire for access to the Pacific.

b)  I assume that the area involved is the entire one that OTL rebelled, i.e. including places like Virginia, N Carolina and Tennessee IIRC that initially stayed with the union but changed their stance once Lincoln decided to use force to prevent the other states seceding.  If so would this Virginia include OTL W Virginia which was distinctly opposed overall to seceding.  I'm not sure what the stance of the unionists in that region would have related to the south given that the union no longer exists, along with many pf the northern links they were used to.

c)  Were any of the southerners influential in the revolution, most especially George Washington outside the ISOT when it occurs,  If so we would see what he thought about the southern secession and there could also be some interesting property issues.

[Otto Kretschmer]

In 1938 ASB create an ideal copy of the Earth in the solar system.

Then 1938 Nazi Germany is copied into it, without Jews, Gypsies and other "undesirable" ethnicities.

What technological level is this Nazi Earth II around 2020 AD?

What are the relations between the Earth and the Nazi Second Earth?

[Otto Kretschmer]

2021 South Korea to 1162 AD (the year of Genghis Khan's birth).

Can butterflies/tech diffusion prevent the Mongols from devastating the world?

stevep?

[Zyobot]

‘2020 Israel To 1020’.

[Otto Kretschmer]

May 27, 2024 21:34:09 GMT Zyobot said:

‘2020 Israel To 1020’.

Does the ISOT include the Gaza Strip and the West Bank?

One way or another, Byzantium is going to have a major ally. It does not lose Anatolia in this scenario and in fact pushes back the Muslims significantly.

[stevep]

May 28, 2024 3:48:56 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

May 27, 2024 21:34:09 GMT Zyobot said:

‘2020 Israel To 1020’.

Does the ISOT include the Gaza Strip and the West Bank?

One way or another, Byzantium is going to have a major ally. It does not lose Anatolia in this scenario and in fact pushes back the Muslims significantly.

  That depends on the relations between the two nations - assuming for the moment it doesn't include Gaza or the west Bank.  Byzantium could be every bit as hidebound and religiously intolerant as the Catholic and many early Protestant churches and Israel will occupy the holy city of Jerusalem.  True they were allied to the Jewish Khazar empire for a couple of centuries but the latter is in decline and the empire has switched its support to the Rus states, especially since they are starting at least to convert to Orthodox Christianity.  At this stage the Muslim world was generally a lot more tolerant of Jewish populations than the Christian world was.  Not to mention that Israel is massively more powerful than just about the entire world at this point, albeit with probable limits on reach and resources.  Basil II is still emperor, until 1025 and not sure what his reaction would be to this small but powerful nation suddenly appearing in such a strategic location.

  In terms of Israel they will want to secure the west bank and Jerusalem, then a location from which they can drill for oil which could be Mesopotamia or further afield.  They might also seek to take out Fatimid Egypt, possibly trying divide and rule between the Coptic's, Sunni and Shia populations in those states, getting a position to build a canal as well through Suez.  They might also seek to aid the Khazars, or at least find out more about them. 

[Otto Kretschmer]

1950 South Africa ISOT to 1875 AD.

How is the Race for Africa affected? How about the rest of the world?

I guess South Africa won't want to have even more black people under it's rule but who knows?

[Otto Kretschmer]

1. 1936 Japan (no Manchukuo but the Kwantung Army does go) ISOT to 1894.

2. 1960 South Korea (no US troops) ISOT to 1890.