The ISOT thread

[Zyobot]

‘1900 British Empire To 1776’.

Britwank scenario for sure, but let’s see how it handles the 13 Colonies this time around.

[Otto Kretschmer]

May 29, 2024 19:06:21 GMT Zyobot said:

‘1900 British Empire To 1776’.

Britwank scenario for sure, but let’s see how it handles the 13 Colonies this time around.

It handled them like in the 1700s - with force.

[stevep]

May 29, 2024 19:06:21 GMT Zyobot said:

‘1900 British Empire To 1776’.

Britwank scenario for sure, but let’s see how it handles the 13 Colonies this time around.

  I would say with the attitudes in 1900 and the relatively small size of the colonial population it seeks to fully integrate them over a period of time.  which probably won't be too popular with a lot of the population as that would ultimately mean they pay British tax levels, albeit that relatively they are a lot lower in 1900 than they were in 1776.  Going to be over a period of time because of the considerable cultural differences between the two communities. 

  What might be interesting would be the attitude to the native Americans.  It will still be pretty poor but probably a lot better than they were OTL after 1783. 

  Probably more importantly for Britain would be the interactions with continental Europe.  In 1776 Britain is already technologically and culturally some way in advance of most/all of the continent but, while Britain is culturally fairly conservative compared to the more advanced 1900 nations their even further ahead of the 1776 world and massively so technologically.  Its going to be a huge shock to traditional rivals such as France and Spain, let alone what they find out about their OTL future which is going to cause a hell of a lot of turmoil.

  Would the empire include protectorates such as Cyprus and Egypt for instance?  If their brought along as well then it will cause conflict with the Ottomans but if their not then the Suez Canal has been lost which would cause a lot of disruption in imperial trade.  Might also have problems over Aden and what was then the Trucial states - now the UAE, Qatar and the like.  There are a lot of other protectorates at this point.

  I would assume that the empire has lost all its underwater telegraph cables which will cause a fair amount of disruption and confusion.

[575]

May 29, 2024 22:05:43 GMT stevep said:

May 29, 2024 19:06:21 GMT Zyobot said:

‘1900 British Empire To 1776’.

Britwank scenario for sure, but let’s see how it handles the 13 Colonies this time around.

  I would say with the attitudes in 1900 and the relatively small size of the colonial population it seeks to fully integrate them over a period of time.  which probably won't be too popular with a lot of the population as that would ultimately mean they pay British tax levels, albeit that relatively they are a lot lower in 1900 than they were in 1776.  Going to be over a period of time because of the considerable cultural differences between the two communities. 

  What might be interesting would be the attitude to the native Americans.  It will still be pretty poor but probably a lot better than they were OTL after 1783. 

  Probably more importantly for Britain would be the interactions with continental Europe.  In 1776 Britain is already technologically and culturally some way in advance of most/all of the continent but, while Britain is culturally fairly conservative compared to the more advanced 1900 nations their even further ahead of the 1776 world and massively so technologically.  Its going to be a huge shock to traditional rivals such as France and Spain, let alone what they find out about their OTL future which is going to cause a hell of a lot of turmoil.

  Would the empire include protectorates such as Cyprus and Egypt for instance?  If their brought along as well then it will cause conflict with the Ottomans but if their not then the Suez Canal has been lost which would cause a lot of disruption in imperial trade.  Might also have problems over Aden and what was then the Trucial states - now the UAE, Qatar and the like.  There are a lot of other protectorates at this point.

  I would assume that the empire has lost all its underwater telegraph cables which will cause a fair amount of disruption and confusion.

Regarding France - no support for the NA rebels here then.

The King will have a better economy than to come through the upcomng social turmoil due to bad harvest's. Possibly no French Revolution and no cosican coming to power. Quite a different Europe then.

[Otto Kretschmer]

Arabia from 633 AD (right after the end of Ridda Wars) to 3000 BC

Do we see an Islamic Earth in this scenario? I think within the next few decades the Arabs are going to conquer everything up to (and including) the Indus valley. Are we going to see a further expansion into Europe and the Indian subcontinent and later China?

This is 3000 BC so the beginning of the Bronze Age - even the strongest states on Earth at the time can barely muster a few hundred bronze armed warriors while the Arabs can muster an army of 15-20,000 men armed with iron weapons and with cavalry.

[Otto Kretschmer]

1880 United States ISOT to 1792, the start of the French Revolutionary Wars.

[stevep]

May 29, 2024 23:27:37 GMT 575 said:

May 29, 2024 22:05:43 GMT stevep said:

  I would say with the attitudes in 1900 and the relatively small size of the colonial population it seeks to fully integrate them over a period of time.  which probably won't be too popular with a lot of the population as that would ultimately mean they pay British tax levels, albeit that relatively they are a lot lower in 1900 than they were in 1776.  Going to be over a period of time because of the considerable cultural differences between the two communities. 

  What might be interesting would be the attitude to the native Americans.  It will still be pretty poor but probably a lot better than they were OTL after 1783. 

  Probably more importantly for Britain would be the interactions with continental Europe.  In 1776 Britain is already technologically and culturally some way in advance of most/all of the continent but, while Britain is culturally fairly conservative compared to the more advanced 1900 nations their even further ahead of the 1776 world and massively so technologically.  Its going to be a huge shock to traditional rivals such as France and Spain, let alone what they find out about their OTL future which is going to cause a hell of a lot of turmoil.

  Would the empire include protectorates such as Cyprus and Egypt for instance?  If their brought along as well then it will cause conflict with the Ottomans but if their not then the Suez Canal has been lost which would cause a lot of disruption in imperial trade.  Might also have problems over Aden and what was then the Trucial states - now the UAE, Qatar and the like.  There are a lot of other protectorates at this point.

  I would assume that the empire has lost all its underwater telegraph cables which will cause a fair amount of disruption and confusion.

Regarding France - no support for the NA rebels here then.

The King will have a better economy than to come through the upcomng social turmoil due to bad harvest's. Possibly no French Revolution and no cosican coming to power. Quite a different Europe then.

  Its likely that the revolution will be avoided at least in the short term.  Both because of no massive investment in the American was in 1778-83 and because they will learn what happened and have some incentive to avoid that result.  I wonder what will happen to that Corsican?  He could be dismissed/arrested/have an unfortunate accident as a threat to the regime or be encouraged to develop as a very skilled commander but with a careful eye on what he does.

  I forgot one huge point that could however cause a massive level of conflict, diplomatic if not military. between Britain and a number of its neighbours.  By 1900 Britain had made massive gains in its war on slavery and now its back in the heyday of the West African slave trade as well as the Corsairs in the Med and the Arab raids into Africa and many other localized slave activities.  Britain has a good chunk of west Africa as colonies/protectorates and could possibly quickly take over much of the rest, cutting off the West Africa trade at its source, although that will cause issues with both the local tribes, especially assuming they seek to end slavery locally, and the Europeans who are buying slaves from them.  Their also going to be less than happy with slavery in the American colonies, which at this stage is fairly common just about everything except possibly New England although I think some areas such as Pennsylvania were seeking to reduce slavery.  I would also expect action to suppress the Barbary pirates although I don't know whether Britain would seek to lastingly occupy even the coastal cities.  You could see some punitive actions with 1900 era ships smashing not only fleets but coastal fortifications and brief occupations to free any slaves and smash what they could of the related infrastructure with a warning "don't make us come back!"

[Zyobot]

‘1942 Axis Powers To Virgin Earth’.

[stevep]

May 31, 2024 20:00:37 GMT Zyobot said:

‘1942 Axis Powers To Virgin Earth’.

  If that includes all the lands they occupy - at what stage in 1942, I'm guessing say circa October when their position was at the peak - then there's some bloody great holes making up much of Europe and a large chunk of eastern Asia and the western Pacific.   In Europe as well as Britain and Ireland you have Spain, Switzerland. Sweden, Turkey and Russia - along with Malta and Cyprus.  Britain and the rump USSR are likely to be the big winners in terms of occupying the now virgin lands - unless their replaced with ocean instead but presuming the former.

  In the Far East much of China is gone as is Korea, Japan and all of SE Asia east of India along with the Philippines, Taiwan and a lot of smaller islands.  Part of New Guinea will be there but I think that's it pretty much.  Rump China and the USSR are likely to be the big winners in the north although possibly the US might occupy Japan?

  On the other Earth its going to be hellish.  The Axis powers have overwhelming military power with only assorted partisan forces although there will be a lot of them in occupied parts of China and the USSR along with Yugoslavia and Greece.  However the partisans are now totally cut off from support.  The occupied territories probably have more total population than the Axis but their likely to be repressed pretty brutally if any rebellions occur.  Coupled with the loss of contact with other nations affecting trade and economics that's going to cause some disruption.  Although not as much as Nazi and Japanese policies will do.  they will have a hell of a lot of resources once they start developing the neighbouring lands and will probably be hunting refugees who seek to escape into such territory for decades or generations to come.  Plus presumably Germany and Japan are likely to turn on each other some time in the future.  Unless both systems collapse because of the sheer incompetence and lunacy of their policies.

  The other question that comes to mind is whether this Earth is created in our Solar system, say in opposite position in the orbit around the sun along with of course the moon or in a parallel universe?  If the former it would be a while before the two Earth's realise their relatively near neighbours.  If the latter the fascists could assume that some divine intervention has occurred in their favour wiping out all their opponents.

[Otto Kretschmer]

1936 Imperial Japan {minus Manchukuo) to 1200 AD.

How does the world deal with both the Mongols and Imperisl Japan?

[stevep]

Jun 1, 2024 4:25:23 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

1936 Imperial Japan {minus Manchukuo) to 1200 AD.

How does the world deal with both the Mongols and Imperisl Japan?

  Well Japan will have problems with issues like oil and steel until it can develop alternatives but its going to cream any land based opponents with simple rifle armed infantry while artillery motor vehicles and when they can use them aircraft are going to cause panic and chaos, at least at first.

  They won't know it but the DT Chinese and others may prefer the Mongols depending on how Japan reacts to this new opportunity for massive conquests.  Ironically of course it largely removes the official excuse for the OTL invasion of Japan as the down timers will be too poor and their markets too simple to supply much of a market for Japanese exports.

[Otto Kretschmer]

stevep Are the Japanese of 1936 aware of any oil reserves? They don't know of the oul in the Persian Gulf but perhaps they are aware of the oil in Romania or the Americas?

[575]

Jun 1, 2024 9:00:03 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

stevep Are the Japanese of 1936 aware of any oil reserves? They don't know of the oul in the Persian Gulf but perhaps they are aware of the oil in Romania or the Americas?

NEI is much closer to Japan and no Dutch colony yet.

The Japanese know of the coal deposits in Manchuria and of the Fischer–Tropsch process i.e. making sythetic fuel from coal.

[stevep]

Jun 1, 2024 10:01:06 GMT 575 said:

Jun 1, 2024 9:00:03 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

stevep Are the Japanese of 1936 aware of any oil reserves? They don't know of the oul in the Persian Gulf but perhaps they are aware of the oil in Romania or the Americas?

NEI is much closer to Japan and no Dutch colony yet.

The Japanese know of the coal deposits in Manchuria and of the Fischer–Tropsch process i.e. making sythetic fuel from coal.

  That would be the obvious source, along with reserves in Borneo and Burma - as it was then - as well and given their proximity I think the southern islands would be the top priority.  How long it would take to drill and set up the necessary infrastructure would be the question.  Their not going to collapse totally but would have some significant shortages until it was on line and could be shipped back to Japan.

  I'm not sure how much detail they have about the F-T process?  It might not be enough to make it worthwhile experimenting for probably several years, especially once they realise their in the past and hence potentially have the world as their oyster.

  One other issue might be rubber.  Could they develop a synthetic version fairly quickly as getting native rubber plants from Brazil - or possibly the variant used in the Congo - and then establish plantations.  Again its not going to cripple them but it could cause problems with some aspect of their military and economy.

[Otto Kretschmer]

1880 Japan ISOT to 191 AD (the start of the Three Kingdoms Period in China).

Now we have Japan that is 10 years into modernization but much less reliant on oil than 1936 Japan:

Question: Without Western influence, does Japan become the same heavily nationalistic, militaristic entity that it became OTL?

Does it conquer Korea? What does it do with the Three Kingdoms China? What are it's relations with Rome going to be?

By 1880 Japan is already producing it's own indigenous rifle en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murata_rifle