575
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Post by 575 on Mar 27, 2022 11:41:46 GMT
South Africa, the day and moment that Mandela is released from prison, to the same day in 1939? That would be 11. February 1939 still half a year to the outbreak of WWII. The Brits won't like it but the SA's being the least attached to the Commonwealth may calm the situation. (stevep?) Perhaps this SA may join up from the outset with the knowledge of German illtreatment and killing of French African troops in France during the campaign there 1940.
Lots of time to improve defences of the west as well as prepare. Probably some major impact on segregated America! when Mandela is elected President.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Mar 27, 2022 12:44:51 GMT
Finland from 1939 to 793 AD (the day of the raid on Lindisfarne)
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melanie
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Post by melanie on Mar 27, 2022 13:41:22 GMT
South Africa, the day and moment that Mandela is released from prison, to the same day in 1939? That would be 11. February 1939 still half a year to the outbreak of WWII. The Brits won't like it but the SA's being the least attached to the Commonwealth may calm the situation. (stevep?) Perhaps this SA may join up from the outset with the knowledge of German illtreatment and killing of French African troops in France during the campaign there 1940.
Lots of time to improve defences of the west as well as prepare. Probably some major impact on segregated America! when Mandela is elected President.
France will be furious to learn that Hitler conquered them in only six weeks. February 11, 1939 is also just over a month before the German occupation of Bohemia and Moravia. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 27, 2022 18:10:33 GMT
Allies/Soviets have 1945 technology EXCEPT ATOMIC BOMBS at the start of the Second Sino-Japanese War, July 7th 1937 Quanity of weapons, vehicles and equipment stays the same so China still has very few tanks and planes though they are changed into 1945 versions Not sure how France, Norway, Yugoslavia and Poland would react to having better technology
Assuming they have the relevant technological upgrades to support all this, or at least what was locally produced then the Axis are doomed if they try anything. Unless there's an explanation for the event there's going to be a hell of a lot of questions asked about where all this equipment has come from!  Plus everybody has the issue of how to use and maintain the new stuff they have little or no experience of. Western forces will still be relatively small as its before any real build-up in response to the arms race started by the assorted fascist powers. With the possible exception of France.
The Soviets could be a very dangerous factor here as their got a pretty large army, albeit not as large as in 1941 but with very formidable equipment.
Also in 1945 a lot of people were using foreign equipment, especially in terms of L-L from the US. Going to be a lot of questions asked about all the American equipment now in British, Soviet and other hands.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 27, 2022 18:25:47 GMT
South Africa, the day and moment that Mandela is released from prison, to the same day in 1939? That would be 11. February 1939 still half a year to the outbreak of WWII. The Brits won't like it but the SA's being the least attached to the Commonwealth may calm the situation. (stevep?) Perhaps this SA may join up from the outset with the knowledge of German illtreatment and killing of French African troops in France during the campaign there 1940.
Lots of time to improve defences of the west as well as prepare. Probably some major impact on segregated America! when Mandela is elected President.
Mandela has only just been released from prison and apartheid is technically in place. Given the vastly different environment in 1939 I would expect the hard line whites to be emboldened to seek to maintain power. Things could get very messy, not to mention possibly very bloody. Plus also didn't S Africa develop some nuclear bombs, which would be a dangerous factor in the mix.
If apartheid still falls without too much bloodshed and chaos then a lot would depend on how the 1939 world reacts to a black majority nation that is potentially the most powerful or at least the most technologically advanced in the world. It could boost moves for more racial equality or prompt stronger opposition with a determination not to allow it to happen here across much of the white dominated world. In the latter case then things could get very nasty in parts of the US and much of the European empires. In that case you would expect to see S Africa seeking to encourage liberation from white colonization, especially in the neighbouring parts of Africa they have access to.
Either way news from S Africa will spread to the rest of the world with possibly a sizeable white flight from S Africa if everything goes pear shaped. Danger is at least some of those could seek to go to Nazi Germany. However I think the biggest gainers will be Britain, France [because they will get vital warnings of the OTL fall of France] and possibly some going to the US as well because of its potential wealth.
A hell of a lot of possibilities both good and bad for the world here.
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razor007
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Post by razor007 on Mar 28, 2022 3:05:39 GMT
That would be 11. February 1939 still half a year to the outbreak of WWII. The Brits won't like it but the SA's being the least attached to the Commonwealth may calm the situation. (stevep?) Perhaps this SA may join up from the outset with the knowledge of German illtreatment and killing of French African troops in France during the campaign there 1940.
Lots of time to improve defences of the west as well as prepare. Probably some major impact on segregated America! when Mandela is elected President.
Mandela has only just been released from prison and apartheid is technically in place. Given the vastly different environment in 1939 I would expect the hard line whites to be emboldened to seek to maintain power. Things could get very messy, not to mention possibly very bloody. Plus also didn't S Africa develop some nuclear bombs, which would be a dangerous factor in the mix.
If apartheid still falls without too much bloodshed and chaos then a lot would depend on how the 1939 world reacts to a black majority nation that is potentially the most powerful or at least the most technologically advanced in the world. It could boost moves for more racial equality or prompt stronger opposition with a determination not to allow it to happen here across much of the white dominated world. In the latter case then things could get very nasty in parts of the US and much of the European empires. In that case you would expect to see S Africa seeking to encourage liberation from white colonization, especially in the neighbouring parts of Africa they have access to.
Either way news from S Africa will spread to the rest of the world with possibly a sizeable white flight from S Africa if everything goes pear shaped. Danger is at least some of those could seek to go to Nazi Germany. However I think the biggest gainers will be Britain, France [because they will get vital warnings of the OTL fall of France] and possibly some going to the US as well because of its potential wealth.
A hell of a lot of possibilities both good and bad for the world here.
France, UK and Poland launch a massive suprise attack on Germany quickly knocking them out of the war. Italy soon falls then Japan and finally the Soviet Union. MeToo and BLM occure several decades earlier. Nationalists rule China. Space Colonization occurs during the 1990s. |
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575
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There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
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Post by 575 on Mar 28, 2022 7:53:01 GMT
Mandela has only just been released from prison and apartheid is technically in place. Given the vastly different environment in 1939 I would expect the hard line whites to be emboldened to seek to maintain power. Things could get very messy, not to mention possibly very bloody. Plus also didn't S Africa develop some nuclear bombs, which would be a dangerous factor in the mix.
If apartheid still falls without too much bloodshed and chaos then a lot would depend on how the 1939 world reacts to a black majority nation that is potentially the most powerful or at least the most technologically advanced in the world. It could boost moves for more racial equality or prompt stronger opposition with a determination not to allow it to happen here across much of the white dominated world. In the latter case then things could get very nasty in parts of the US and much of the European empires. In that case you would expect to see S Africa seeking to encourage liberation from white colonization, especially in the neighbouring parts of Africa they have access to.
Either way news from S Africa will spread to the rest of the world with possibly a sizeable white flight from S Africa if everything goes pear shaped. Danger is at least some of those could seek to go to Nazi Germany. However I think the biggest gainers will be Britain, France [because they will get vital warnings of the OTL fall of France] and possibly some going to the US as well because of its potential wealth.
A hell of a lot of possibilities both good and bad for the world here.
France, UK and Poland launch a massive suprise attack on Germany quickly knocking them out of the war. Italy soon falls then Japan and finally the Soviet Union. MeToo and BLM occure several decades earlier. Nationalists rule China. Space Colonization occurs during the 1990s. I think is not a give ITTL. |
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melanie
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Post by melanie on Mar 28, 2022 9:40:25 GMT
575, stevep, yeah. I agree completely. The fight for civil rights in the original fifties and sixties was long and murderous as it was... and yet we're supposed to believe razor007 that the arrival of 1990 South Africa, with Mandela soon to take over, will not terrify USA whites? There is going to be *more* anti black (and their white supporters) bloodshed in white ruled America in this world, not less.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 28, 2022 14:18:14 GMT
575 , stevep , yeah. I agree completely. The fight for civil rights in the original fifties and sixties was long and murderous as it was... and yet we're supposed to believe razor007 that the arrival of 1990 South Africa, with Mandela soon to take over, will not terrify USA whites? There is going to be *more* anti black (and their white supporters) bloodshed in white ruled America in this world, not less.
Regardless of what happens in S Africa and its possible that the down-time British empire could seek to help the hard line white 'retain order'! Even without that there could be turmoil across the assorted imperial regimes as the idea of equal rights won't go down well with any colonial power. Plus the sheer costs of WWII might mean that Britain and/or France - and it only needs one of them to do it and the other would probably be forced to follow - could decide not to give the guarantee to Poland. Possibly with the thought that after Germany invades Poland it will cripple itself in a savage war with the USSR.
If the liberals still win in S Africa its possibly going to be an even bigger pariah state that OTL S Africa was in the apartheid period, especially since a Mandela lead S Africa is not only going to reject any colonial role but is going to be deeply unhappy with the continuation of white rule in other colonies, especially neighbouring ones.
As you say S Africa might well present an example to the US that prompts the more reactionary elements and make attempts to end Jim Crow and the repression in the US a lot harsher and more difficult to overcome.
Overall things could get pretty damned dark here. |
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melanie
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Post by melanie on Mar 29, 2022 3:14:51 GMT
the territory of the ROC/Taiwan at noon Taipei time on July 10th 1985 is sent to the same moment on July 10th 1945. Just a few weeks before the Haberdasher orders Hiroshima nuked. .gif) |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Mar 29, 2022 15:04:05 GMT
the territory of the ROC/Taiwan at noon Taipei time on July 10th 1985 is sent to the same moment on July 10th 1945. Just a few weeks before the Haberdasher orders Hiroshima nuked. Chang wins the Chinese Civil War.. |
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melanie
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Post by melanie on Mar 29, 2022 22:31:12 GMT
San Marino ISOT, 1999 to 1939. Benny the Moose won't have much trouble against it, i fear.  |
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 30, 2022 8:09:58 GMT
No though they may tell him a tale of him hanging upside down in a square in Milan six years from now if he doesn't act differently. Will he listen - course not!
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melanie
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Post by melanie on Mar 30, 2022 14:07:34 GMT
575, Benny the Moose was soc.history.what-if's appellation for Mussolini. How about: the Republic of Mali replaces its 1940 counterpart the French Sudan at 0:00 GMT on March 10th, 1940? 
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 31, 2022 15:55:35 GMT
575 , Benny the Moose was soc.history.what-if's appellation for Mussolini. How about: the Republic of Mali replaces its 1940 counterpart the French Sudan at 0:00 GMT on March 10th, 1940? Know it!
Mali - France of 1940 just got 2,400 modern troops; but will they be able to get word to Paris to be believed..
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Plus everybody has the issue of how to use and maintain the new stuff they have little or no experience of. Western forces will still be relatively small as its before any real build-up in response to the arms race started by the assorted fascist powers. With the possible exception of France.