stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 12, 2022 17:01:14 GMT
Well the Philippines might be powerful, but it also has some issues, like Communist and Islamic terrorist in its country, ready to spread their believes to the world of 1898. There's that possibility of Islamic terrorists exporting their ideology to Malaya and the DEI. As for the NPA and Cuba, if Lenin heard of them, he may take interest.
He could have a bigger issue of staying alive as the 1898 world finds out what happens after 1917. In 1898 he's just been sentenced to 3 years of internal exile in Siberia but either the government or some local figure could decide a more radical action is needed and he has an unfortunate accident.
The other prominent figure of course is a 9 year old son of an Austrian custom's officer?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 12, 2022 17:02:52 GMT
Ah Lordroel, the OP specifically states the Philippines, Cuba and Puerto Rico so think Guam is still in 1898 Spanish hands. In terms of threats to the US fleet arriving at Havana I would say the a/c and anything which mounts torpedoes would be the big threat if a clash happens. Pre-dreads and cruisers in 1898 are fairly weakly defended against torpedoes and at that date "what the hell's an aircraft!". Steve
The thread title says: WI: 2021 Cuba, Philippines, Puerto Rico and Guam are ISOTed to 1898 by TheSpaniard.
Ah true. I was reading what it said in the OP and missed it added Guam in the title.  |
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Feb 12, 2022 17:05:34 GMT
There's that possibility of Islamic terrorists exporting their ideology to Malaya and the DEI. As for the NPA and Cuba, if Lenin heard of them, he may take interest.
He could have a bigger issue of staying alive as the 1898 world finds out what happens after 1917. In 1898 he's just been sentenced to 3 years of internal exile in Siberia but either the government or some local figure could decide a more radical action is needed and he has an unfortunate accident.
The other prominent figure of course is a 9 year old son of an Austrian custom's officer?
The problem is neither the U.S. forces in Guam and Puerto Rico, the NICA agents in the Philippines, and the Cuban intelligence units have time or resources to look for this certain son of an Austrian customs officer. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 12, 2022 17:51:31 GMT
He could have a bigger issue of staying alive as the 1898 world finds out what happens after 1917. In 1898 he's just been sentenced to 3 years of internal exile in Siberia but either the government or some local figure could decide a more radical action is needed and he has an unfortunate accident.
The other prominent figure of course is a 9 year old son of an Austrian custom's officer?
The problem is neither the U.S. forces in Guam and Puerto Rico, the NICA agents in the Philippines, and the Cuban intelligence units have time or resources to look for this certain son of an Austrian customs officer.
They don't but a lot of other people will and a fair number will have the incentive as well. Once news spreads of future events a lot of young people are going to attract friendly or unfriendly interest. Or in many cases both from assorted groups and populations.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Feb 12, 2022 17:57:43 GMT
The problem is neither the U.S. forces in Guam and Puerto Rico, the NICA agents in the Philippines, and the Cuban intelligence units have time or resources to look for this certain son of an Austrian customs officer.
They don't but a lot of other people will and a fair number will have the incentive as well. Once news spreads of future events a lot of young people are going to attract friendly or unfriendly interest. Or in many cases both from assorted groups and populations.
Yes it's gonna be a culture clash. I wonder how the Ottoman Empire will react to the Islamic extremists in Mindanao. Or how will the communist NPA react to seeing an younger Lenin in Siberia or how will Lenin see these NPA's worth for the cause of the communist revolution. How will the Great Powers at this time such as Britain, France, Russia, Austria-Hungary, and Qing China react to the sudden appearance of a powerful Philippines with the most advanced technology and military power? The questions are endless. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Feb 13, 2022 13:19:51 GMT
Seems to me the ISOT dates were purposefully chosen -
Philippines 29. April - Deweys Squadron arrive late night 30. April; Battle of Manila 1. May.
Puerto Rico 7. May - US Naval bombardment San Juan 12. May and blockade; Lt. Whitney arrive 15. May to spy on the Spanish.
Cuba 10. June - US Naval blockade since 21. April and landings to commence 22. - 24. June.
Guam 19. June - a US Navy Squadron bound for Philippines arrive 20. June at Guam; Cruiser USS Charleston and three transports.
What 3)? copy of Paris of 2021 is doing at Madrid on Washington??? is beyond me - any enlightenment?
Each ISOT date leave room for contacting the US Navy forces to try understand the situation. Of course Cuba arriving amidst a US blockade is a declaration of war and the US ships will be sunk if at all possible - whats about Gitmo. Nobody really seems to know.
Puerto Rico have plenty troops to trow out the US invasion and some C-130 Hercules a/c. Seems the NG and SG should be armed fully as they are supposed to be party to US Military.
Guam at least some USMC there but the bright heads around here should be able to enlighten us more on USAF and US Navy units.
Seems to me to be plenty room for manouevre for the uptime folks - try negotiate if fails sink the buggers then World Hegemony. Of course depending on actual resources/units at Puerto Rico and Guam there may be some problems though ever heard of AC-130? Guam home of Submarine Sqd. 15 with four SSN having home port there at least according to wiki though perhaps some of you have better info?
Just did a quick lookup.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Feb 13, 2022 14:08:51 GMT
Seems to me the ISOT dates were purposefully chosen - Philippines 29. April - Deweys Squadron arrive late night 30. April; Battle of Manila 1. May. Puerto Rico 7. May - US Naval bombardment San Juan 12. May and blockade; Lt. Whitney arrive 15. May to spy on the Spanish. Cuba 10. June - US Naval blockade since 21. April and landings to commence 22. - 24. June. Guam 19. June - a US Navy Squadron bound for Philippines arrive 20. June at Guam; Cruiser USS Charleston and three transports. What 3)? copy of Paris of 2021 is doing at Madrid on Washington??? is beyond me - any enlightenment? Each ISOT date leave room for contacting the US Navy forces to try understand the situation. Of course Cuba arriving amidst a US blockade is a declaration of war and the US ships will be sunk if at all possible - whats about Gitmo. Nobody really seems to know. Puerto Rico have plenty troops to trow out the US invasion and some C-130 Hercules a/c. Seems the NG and SG should be armed fully as they are supposed to be party to US Military. Guam at least some USMC there but the bright heads around here should be able to enlighten us more on USAF and US Navy units. Seems to me to be plenty room for manouevre for the uptime folks - try negotiate if fails sink the buggers then World Hegemony. Of course depending on actual resources/units at Puerto Rico and Guam there may be some problems though ever heard of AC-130? Guam home of Submarine Sqd. 15 with four SSN having home port there at least according to wiki though perhaps some of you have better info? Just did a quick lookup. Cuba would be the most powerful country in the Caribbean. Their fleets of Romeo and Delfin-class submarines would sink any U.S. Navy ironclads. I think Gitmo would have been zipped out of existence since it is not Cuban territory so it would be empty, prompting the Cuban military to move in and reclaim it. Puerto Rico has a sizable National Guard but it only has one C-130. Guam would be the next most powerful "island" in the Pacific next to the Philippines. Those USAF bombers and F-22s can deter a 1898 USN invasion. The more it would be awkward for 2012 Americans fighting against 1898 Americans. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Feb 13, 2022 15:15:15 GMT
Seems to me the ISOT dates were purposefully chosen - Philippines 29. April - Deweys Squadron arrive late night 30. April; Battle of Manila 1. May. Puerto Rico 7. May - US Naval bombardment San Juan 12. May and blockade; Lt. Whitney arrive 15. May to spy on the Spanish. Cuba 10. June - US Naval blockade since 21. April and landings to commence 22. - 24. June. Guam 19. June - a US Navy Squadron bound for Philippines arrive 20. June at Guam; Cruiser USS Charleston and three transports. What 3)? copy of Paris of 2021 is doing at Madrid on Washington??? is beyond me - any enlightenment? Each ISOT date leave room for contacting the US Navy forces to try understand the situation. Of course Cuba arriving amidst a US blockade is a declaration of war and the US ships will be sunk if at all possible - whats about Gitmo. Nobody really seems to know. Puerto Rico have plenty troops to trow out the US invasion and some C-130 Hercules a/c. Seems the NG and SG should be armed fully as they are supposed to be party to US Military. Guam at least some USMC there but the bright heads around here should be able to enlighten us more on USAF and US Navy units. Seems to me to be plenty room for manouevre for the uptime folks - try negotiate if fails sink the buggers then World Hegemony. Of course depending on actual resources/units at Puerto Rico and Guam there may be some problems though ever heard of AC-130? Guam home of Submarine Sqd. 15 with four SSN having home port there at least according to wiki though perhaps some of you have better info? Just did a quick lookup. Cuba would be the most powerful country in the Caribbean. Their fleets of Romeo and Delfin-class submarines would sink any U.S. Navy ironclads. I think Gitmo would have been zipped out of existence since it is not Cuban territory so it would be empty, prompting the Cuban military to move in and reclaim it. Puerto Rico has a sizable National Guard but it only has one C-130. Guam would be the next most powerful "island" in the Pacific next to the Philippines. Those USAF bombers and F-22s can deter a 1898 USN invasion. The more it would be awkward for 2012 Americans fighting against 1898 Americans. Puerto Rico, Guam, Philippines: Indeed but still there would be time for negotiating though probably the 1898 Ami's will be too war-crazed to negotiate. Pity.
As I understand and is able to dig up the four? Delphin is a North Korean copy home built. The Navy then have one - two? rebuilt fishing boats/trawlers though with Silkworm SSMs and perhaps one small ASW boat. No Romeo's and if so in storage. Seems the Navy and the AF is badly low on training and equipment but of course in an emergency.. perhaps their mini-torpedo boats and human mini subs may wreck havoc. Their real defence towards the US Navy seems to be the Styx missiles but also the artillery and T-55s should be able to annoy the US Navy and penetrate its oldfashioned non-hardened steel. With a little luck and foreknowledge they should be able to defeat the opponent. Agree on Gitmo wouldn't make much sense though then 1. Marine Battalion meeting its 124 years decendants once they wade ashore..
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Feb 13, 2022 15:35:22 GMT
Cuba would be the most powerful country in the Caribbean. Their fleets of Romeo and Delfin-class submarines would sink any U.S. Navy ironclads. I think Gitmo would have been zipped out of existence since it is not Cuban territory so it would be empty, prompting the Cuban military to move in and reclaim it. Puerto Rico has a sizable National Guard but it only has one C-130. Guam would be the next most powerful "island" in the Pacific next to the Philippines. Those USAF bombers and F-22s can deter a 1898 USN invasion. The more it would be awkward for 2012 Americans fighting against 1898 Americans. Puerto Rico, Guam, Philippines: Indeed but still there would be time for negotiating though probably the 1898 Ami's will be too war-crazed to negotiate. Pity.
As I understand and is able to dig up the four? Delphin is a North Korean copy home built. The Navy then have one - two? rebuilt fishing boats/trawlers though with Silkworm SSMs and perhaps one small ASW boat. No Romeo's and if so in storage. Seems the Navy and the AF is badly low on training and equipment but of course in an emergency.. perhaps their mini-torpedo boats and human mini subs may wreck havoc. Their real defence towards the US Navy seems to be the Styx missiles but also the artillery and T-55s should be able to annoy the US Navy and penetrate its oldfashioned non-hardened steel. With a little luck and foreknowledge they should be able to defeat the opponent. Agree on Gitmo wouldn't make much sense though then 1. Marine Battalion meeting its 124 years decendants once they wade ashore..
I wonder if those Silkworms and Styx missiles could penetrate the armor of the USN ironclads. The same issue happens with the OTO Melara 76 mm of the Philippine Navy, which may have hard time penetrating the USS Olympia's armor. It would be interesting to see if the Cubans start putting tanks on their cargo ships to have some form of naval bombardment. Of course, the battle changes once the Philippine and Cuban Air Force shows up. I need to know how well-maintained is the Cuban air forces. I heard that since the fall of the USSR, the Cuban military is having a stagnant military. They are no longer the same military as they were during the Cold War. Lastly, for Gitmo, imagine how the downtime Cubans would react seeing a McDonald's in a secure prison. Things get strange from here. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Feb 13, 2022 22:26:44 GMT
Puerto Rico, Guam, Philippines: Indeed but still there would be time for negotiating though probably the 1898 Ami's will be too war-crazed to negotiate. Pity.
As I understand and is able to dig up the four? Delphin is a North Korean copy home built. The Navy then have one - two? rebuilt fishing boats/trawlers though with Silkworm SSMs and perhaps one small ASW boat. No Romeo's and if so in storage. Seems the Navy and the AF is badly low on training and equipment but of course in an emergency.. perhaps their mini-torpedo boats and human mini subs may wreck havoc. Their real defence towards the US Navy seems to be the Styx missiles but also the artillery and T-55s should be able to annoy the US Navy and penetrate its oldfashioned non-hardened steel. With a little luck and foreknowledge they should be able to defeat the opponent. Agree on Gitmo wouldn't make much sense though then 1. Marine Battalion meeting its 124 years decendants once they wade ashore..
I wonder if those Silkworms and Styx missiles could penetrate the armor of the USN ironclads. The same issue happens with the OTO Melara 76 mm of the Philippine Navy, which may have hard time penetrating the USS Olympia's armor. It would be interesting to see if the Cubans start putting tanks on their cargo ships to have some form of naval bombardment. Of course, the battle changes once the Philippine and Cuban Air Force shows up. I need to know how well-maintained is the Cuban air forces. I heard that since the fall of the USSR, the Cuban military is having a stagnant military. They are no longer the same military as they were during the Cold War. Lastly, for Gitmo, imagine how the downtime Cubans would react seeing a McDonald's in a secure prison. Things get strange from here. Re: ship armour The early 1890's are the time when Harvey armour an early form of case hardened cemented armour which was much stronger then the previous iron/steel/compound(laminated?)armour. Because of the development of armour vs artillery had made for building of Protected Cruisers which didn't have side armour but armoured deck thus hitting the side of the ship with modern artillery would be devastating. This was the case of the USN ships bound for Philippines, Guam and Puerto Rico. The ships blockading Cuba was 4 battleships and 2 armoured cruisers and 2 Monitors with side armour, 1 Protected Cruiser and 10 unarmoured ships. The USN ships were laid down before the advent of Harvey armour.
Would a Silkworm/Styx missile be penetrating such ships? Tests were carried out on the BC Stalingrad which didn't take much damage but the steel of the ship was of 1940 vintage way superior to early ship armour. The Styx/Silkworm weighs 2,5 tons with a 454 kg warhead placed behind the fuel cell which would add to the impact. Moving at mach 0,9 I'd expect the missile to do significant damage to the USN ships!
Cuban airforce seems not to be well maintained nor in large operational numbers some 24-41 according to source. Almost 190 A/C in storage. They should be feared anyway.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Feb 14, 2022 3:33:57 GMT
I wonder if those Silkworms and Styx missiles could penetrate the armor of the USN ironclads. The same issue happens with the OTO Melara 76 mm of the Philippine Navy, which may have hard time penetrating the USS Olympia's armor. It would be interesting to see if the Cubans start putting tanks on their cargo ships to have some form of naval bombardment. Of course, the battle changes once the Philippine and Cuban Air Force shows up. I need to know how well-maintained is the Cuban air forces. I heard that since the fall of the USSR, the Cuban military is having a stagnant military. They are no longer the same military as they were during the Cold War. Lastly, for Gitmo, imagine how the downtime Cubans would react seeing a McDonald's in a secure prison. Things get strange from here. Re: ship armour The early 1890's are the time when Harvey armour an early form of case hardened cemented armour which was much stronger then the previous iron/steel/compound(laminated?)armour. Because of the development of armour vs artillery had made for building of Protected Cruisers which didn't have side armour but armoured deck thus hitting the side of the ship with modern artillery would be devastating. This was the case of the USN ships bound for Philippines, Guam and Puerto Rico. The ships blockading Cuba was 4 battleships and 2 armoured cruisers and 2 Monitors with side armour, 1 Protected Cruiser and 10 unarmoured ships. The USN ships were laid down before the advent of Harvey armour.
Would a Silkworm/Styx missile be penetrating such ships? Tests were carried out on the BC Stalingrad which didn't take much damage but the steel of the ship was of 1940 vintage way superior to early ship armour. The Styx/Silkworm weighs 2,5 tons with a 454 kg warhead placed behind the fuel cell which would add to the impact. Moving at mach 0,9 I'd expect the missile to do significant damage to the USN ships!
Cuban airforce seems not to be well maintained nor in large operational numbers some 24-41 according to source. Almost 190 A/C in storage. They should be feared anyway.
Now I see the Philippine Navy hitting the ships at the side. Probably a 76 mm round would damage the protected cruisers. Sad the C-Star anti-ship missiles have not arrived yet. I can agree that the Silkworm and the Styx could so significant damage. Worse comes to worse, the Cubans can count on their torpedoes of their subs to sink the 1898 USN. I've read the Cuban Air Force is mostly in storage or mothballed since the end of the Cold War. It baffles me why Havana has not purchased new Russian equipment. Nonetheless, you are correct the MiG-21s and Sukhois could still do damage on the USN which was hopeless against anything that flies. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 14, 2022 11:17:08 GMT
As with the Exocets in the Falklands war, but possibly even more so in a ship of that time the sheer heat from the rocket exhaust could cause a lot of damage by setting items in the ship on fire even without the warhead. True they don't have the aluminum components the RN ships had but there will be a lot of combustibles on board and I suspect the fire-fighting capacities would be a lot more limited.
Of course this assumes it comes to actual fighting. The most likely case here would be at Cuba because of the hostility between the Cubans and US. With the Philippines I would expect it to be far less likely as the US ships are likely to be intercepted by Philippine navy ships investigating who those strange ships are, or when they get to Manila being shocked at the size and character of the place. Unless despite the Spanish obviously not being present the commanders do something stupid.
If Guam is along and a CVN there then its a damned sight more powerful than anything else in the world but would only really be useful as an awe inspiriting sight, once the munitions run out. Its main medium and longer term impact would be the knowledge of the men on board and the boost they will give to US [and possibly others] technology and possibly politics.
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