lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 11, 2023 11:12:08 GMT
Can see the blockade of Prussia by the 1940/1864 Danish Navy be worse for Prussia than OTL, might we see coastal raids by the 1940 Danish Navy ore am i jumping to far ahead. Jumping too far ahead - no but You and stevep tends to read my notes and this is only a thought. Of course Denmark during 1848-50 did excell in combined operations along the Jutland East Coast and did blockade the German Ports on the Baltic and North Sea during both 1848-50 and 1864; in both instances a strong weapon (which would also be backed by the other Naval Power - Britain!) At the moment we're not at war with Prussia - Austria and the German Confederation but that will soon change. The way ahead navally will be a little difficult - but obstacles are to be removed or bypassed to attain the greater good. 1914 ISOT to 1864 I let the Danish Navy sink the Prussian one in a preemptive operation will not immediately happen here because of prior line - confused possibly but look up Vice-Admiral Rechnitzer.
Well if Prussia sees this monster, HDMS Niels Juel (1918), they might start to wonder what else Denmark has.  |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 11, 2023 11:24:50 GMT
Jumping too far ahead - no but You and stevep tends to read my notes and this is only a thought. Of course Denmark during 1848-50 did excell in combined operations along the Jutland East Coast and did blockade the German Ports on the Baltic and North Sea during both 1848-50 and 1864; in both instances a strong weapon (which would also be backed by the other Naval Power - Britain!) At the moment we're not at war with Prussia - Austria and the German Confederation but that will soon change. The way ahead navally will be a little difficult - but obstacles are to be removed or bypassed to attain the greater good. 1914 ISOT to 1864 I let the Danish Navy sink the Prussian one in a preemptive operation will not immediately happen here because of prior line - confused possibly but look up Vice-Admiral Rechnitzer.
Well if Prussia sees this monster, HDMS Niels Juel (1918), they might start to wonder what else Denmark has.
Stuff Prussia. That would give Britain and France kittens!  The Admiralty is going to want as much details as possible about the new Denmark once it starts to realise what its capable of. Shouldn't be a great problem as Denmark is unlikely to suddenly go into an imperial expansionist mode but its going to be a concern in many in Britain and elsewhere. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 11, 2023 11:32:39 GMT
I'm not sure there are oilfields anywhere in the world at this point and definitely not in the scale that Denmark will need so those oil fired ships, motor vehicles and of course aircraft are going to be a wasting resource that will have limited use unless and until new production capacity can be organised and put into service and of course also a system for bringing it to Denmark will also be required. The Danish forces and public are going to have to be careful how they use their stockpile and how quickly they can win this conflict and then keep others in the dark about this issue. Possibly some of the ships can be retofitted for coal powering but it would be costly and time consuming.
Buying coal from Britain would be a likely option and also sales of a lot of foodstuff as by this time Britain has been committed to free trade for ~15 years so there is definitely a market. Also there was a fair amount of sympathy for Denmark at the time, partly aided by Princess Alexandra, the wife of Edward Prince of Wales [and later Edward VII] was Danish.
One issue might be Denmark spreading information about the next few years. With the knowledge of Prussia defeating Austria and its allies and then France in the next 6 years that could cause some discontent in the current alliance and wider across Europe. Of course how quickly they can persuade people that what they say is accurate would be a factor here. Thinking about it Denmark will include a fair number of foreign people at this time including assorted diplomats if nothing else and a number of them will want to inform their down-time nations as to what the 'future' holds. Not in all cases of course as a number of 1940 countries don't exist or are under drastically different governments that the 1940 diplomats won't find too easy to work with and vice versa as for instance there is currently no Austrian embassy or ambassador in Denmark since that countries annexation by Nazi Germany.
Would any of the DT Danish royalty have been in the unaffected southern area at this point? If so they and some of their forces may be unwilling to accept instructions from the UT government or recognise its monarchy, especially if it means abandoning what they view of as Danish territory. Although the overwhelming power of the opposing forces compared to their own now isolated units could force them to change their minds fairly quickly.
Anyway a few thoughts that occurred to me.
Did something on the oilfields in Galizia for A Window.. - ah there it was: 1817 an order was signed for delivery of oil for the lamps of Prague. Extraction in Baku and North America still in the development but its there. A Civil War raging in NA but Denmark have good relations with the Tsar though Princess Dagmar haven't been and will not ITTL be married to the next - our old Ally! It will take time and initially be in small capacity - Galizia will be the best bet (unlike what I decided 12 years ago when I ISOTed Denmark of 1914 to 1864). The majority of the Navy is coal fired - Subs and other moderns oil burners. Artilleryship Niels Juel a hybrid. Still lots of horses in the Army but quite some Trucks and other fuelburning vehicles though just 1,500 total! Most commercial traffic is non existant due to rationing as earlier mentioned so won't be a crisis there.
Dissemination of information about the intensions of Bismarcks will soon be handed to the Austrians and other friendly German States and much more will follow. Other Ministers - Ambassadors - to Copenhagen may want to travel home to brief their Government and ruler.
There was no Danish Royalty attatched to the Army or Navy or on active service during 1864. So no Claimant forthcoming.
Now be patient - its another ten pages or so till we get to the real action. Denmark of 1940 is run by a coalition of Socialdemocratic Party and Social Liberals the latter being extremely pacifist. Premier Stauning had a stint of we go the Swedish Way just post the accession to power of A. Hitler but couldn't find an Ally or forge a Scandinavian Defence League (due to a zillion obstacles) so opted to lay low and hope for the best. Good idea??? At least so is the situation in Denmarks and Stauning have for the past few years been telling the populace that "we are a small peoples alone in the World and will have to weather it on our own.."
Thanks for the detailed reply to those points.
10 pages - so you will have them completed by this afternoon.  Seriously, take things at your own pace and a often the non-military stuff is as interesting - at least to me - as the flash bang wallop bits.  |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 11, 2023 11:34:07 GMT
Can see the blockade of Prussia by the 1940/1864 Danish Navy be worse for Prussia than OTL, might we see coastal raids by the 1940 Danish Navy ore am i jumping to far ahead. Jumping too far ahead - no but You and stevep tends to read my notes and this is only a thought. Of course Denmark during 1848-50 did excell in combined operations along the Jutland East Coast and did blockade the German Ports on the Baltic and North Sea during both 1848-50 and 1864; in both instances a strong weapon (which would also be backed by the other Naval Power - Britain!) At the moment we're not at war with Prussia - Austria and the German Confederation but that will soon change. The way ahead navally will be a little difficult - but obstacles are to be removed or bypassed to attain the greater good. 1914 ISOT to 1864 I let the Danish Navy sink the Prussian one in a preemptive operation will not immediately happen here because of prior line - confused possibly but look up Vice-Admiral Rechnitzer.
Good to know my bugging programme is working well. Talks a lot of money to get those spy cameras in place. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 11, 2023 11:34:14 GMT
10 pages - so you will have them completed by this afternoon. Seriously, take things at your own pace and a often the non-military stuff is as interesting - at least to me - as the flash bang wallop bits. Agree with stevep, while i cannot look at the thread what is going on on AH.com due it members only, lets try to outpage it shall we. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Feb 11, 2023 12:52:53 GMT
Well if Prussia sees this monster, HDMS Niels Juel (1918), they might start to wonder what else Denmark has.
Stuff Prussia. That would give Britain and France kittens! The Admiralty is going to want as much details as possible about the new Denmark once it starts to realise what its capable of. Shouldn't be a great problem as Denmark is unlikely to suddenly go into an imperial expansionist mode but its going to be a concern in many in Britain and elsewhere. Well good to know Denmark have some wanted know-how to sell off; in bits of course - small bits!
No Denmark isn't going expansionist - not with the Social Liberals at the helm of the Foreign Office. It also have to sort things out with the German Confederation.
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575
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Post by 575 on Feb 11, 2023 12:55:59 GMT
10 pages - so you will have them completed by this afternoon. Seriously, take things at your own pace and a often the non-military stuff is as interesting - at least to me - as the flash bang wallop bits. Agree with stevep, while i cannot look at the thread what is going on on AH.com due it members only, lets try to outpage it shall we. You Guys already did; You also feed me valuable input mainly I guess due to our common interest in European stuff. I DO get feedback on ze other site but not that detailed - waiting for the heavyweights. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 11, 2023 12:56:57 GMT
Stuff Prussia. That would give Britain and France kittens! The Admiralty is going to want as much details as possible about the new Denmark once it starts to realise what its capable of. Shouldn't be a great problem as Denmark is unlikely to suddenly go into an imperial expansionist mode but its going to be a concern in many in Britain and elsewhere. Well good to know Denmark have some wanted know-how to sell off; in bits of course - small bits! No Denmark isn't going expansionist - not with the Social Liberals at the helm of the Foreign Office. It also have to sort things out with the German Confederation.
Well one butterfly is a certain president across the ocean who might survive his OTL faith. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Feb 11, 2023 13:05:38 GMT
Well good to know Denmark have some wanted know-how to sell off; in bits of course - small bits! No Denmark isn't going expansionist - not with the Social Liberals at the helm of the Foreign Office. It also have to sort things out with the German Confederation.
Well one butterfly is a certain president across the ocean who might survive his OTL faith. Did that in my Denmark 1914 ISOT to 1864 - perhaps I should post that here? |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 11, 2023 13:11:59 GMT
Well good to know Denmark have some wanted know-how to sell off; in bits of course - small bits! No Denmark isn't going expansionist - not with the Social Liberals at the helm of the Foreign Office. It also have to sort things out with the German Confederation.
Well one butterfly is a certain president across the ocean who might survive his OTL faith.
Good point. I hadn't considered major impacts for the USCW other than possibly some Danish aid to the union but I get the feeling a certain Mr Booth could have a shorter life here. Lincoln surviving could have some drastic impacts on the future of the US. Also knowledge of how OTL the southern whites regained control of the region and the Jim Crow system that institutionalized a new round of racial oppression. [Albeit that a 1940 Denmark won't be as radical on the issue as a modern day Denmark would be.]
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 11, 2023 13:17:08 GMT
Well one butterfly is a certain president across the ocean who might survive his OTL faith. Did that in my Denmark 1914 ISOT to 1864 - perhaps I should post that here?
That would definitely be interesting please if it won't disrupt the current TL too much.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 11, 2023 13:34:53 GMT
Did that in my Denmark 1914 ISOT to 1864 - perhaps I should post that here? That would definitely be interesting please if it won't disrupt the current TL too much.
We also have to think, if Prussia losses also the Second Schleswig War it might weaken minister-President of Prussia, Otto von Bismarck power and ofcorse it weaken Prussia itself, this might benefit a certain Second French Empire who now sees a major rival loss and who might see its faith averted six years from now. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Feb 11, 2023 13:37:56 GMT
Did that in my Denmark 1914 ISOT to 1864 - perhaps I should post that here?
That would definitely be interesting please if it won't disrupt the current TL too much.
I'll find some space in the Timeline Writers section - won't be too much trouble. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Feb 11, 2023 13:40:08 GMT
That would definitely be interesting please if it won't disrupt the current TL too much.
We also have to think, if Prussia losses also the Second Schleswig War it might weaken minister-President of Prussia, Otto von Bismarck power and ofcorse it weaken Prussia itself, this might benefit a certain Second French Empire who now sees a major rival loss and who might see its faith averted six years from now. Yes - that would be some huge butterfly. Though I didn't finish my thinking on subject so hadn't been around l'Empereur Francaise. Oi, can't even remember how I did tackle that one in the old tread.. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Feb 12, 2023 9:51:56 GMT
Copenhagen 9 April 1940 06 AM
Social-Demokraten (Union Newspaper) headline:
”Strange events during the night – German Navy ships disappeared”
Berlingske Tidende (Conservative Newspaper) headline:
”Swedish sailing ship from Hälsingborg tell of no Railway station at Ferry Port”
Politiken (Social Liberal Newspaper) headline:
”Aurora borealis visible all over the country last night”
Land og Folk (Communist Newspaper) headline:
”Warship Niels Juel mobilized yesterday”
(OTL prior to Radio and the Internet news went off at 06 AM by the morning paper – then a late morning paper around 10 AM and then evening news around 3-4 PM; journalist's would wait out the night till 02 AM at the editors desk for late news to be able to fit them into the morning paper printing fra 02 – 04 AM; important news outside regular issues could be spread by flyers/leaflets)
Copenhagen 9 April 1940 08 AM
General Prior, Army Commander, and Vice-Admiral Rechnitzer, Navy Commander waited for their political head Minister of Defence Alsing-Andersen to arrive at Ministry of Defence.
The Commanders had already exchanged information about the situation and occasionally an Army or Navy Aide would show up with new signals.
A batch of Newspapers lay on the table separating their comfy chairs.
Vice-Admiral Rechnitzer pointed at the Newspapers: ”If they knew it all it would be a sensation.”
General Prior: ”At least it already made headlines even if they don't have the full picture.”
Vice-Admiral Rechnitzer: ”Do our Political Masters?”
General Prior: ”He-he.. Vice-Admiral.. please.. I didn't think of You as a joker.”
At 0810 AM Minister Alsing-Andersen arrived looking at the officers asking them to follow him into his Office and then sitting down saying ”so no hostilities initiated by Germany then?”
The General and Admiral looked at each other then General Prior said ”no not the 1940 Germany but it seems we are on the doorstep of war with Prussia and Austria of 1864.”
Alsing-Andersen: ”General I don't know You to be joking.”
General Prior: ”I'm not – let me and the Vice-Admiral” looking at Rechnitzer with a broad smile ”read You a number of Signals that have been received at Army and Navy Commands I assume You are already familiar with the major Newspaper headlines.”
Following several readings.. and lots of discussion on whats happening.
Alsing-Andersen: ”General, Vice-Admiral I really feel we ought to go to the Primeminister – if You wait I'll just have my Aide call his office stating our soon arrival.”
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The Admiralty is going to want as much details as possible about the new Denmark once it starts to realise what its capable of. Shouldn't be a great problem as Denmark is unlikely to suddenly go into an imperial expansionist mode but its going to be a concern in many in Britain and elsewhere.
Seriously, take things at your own pace and a often the non-military stuff is as interesting - at least to me - as the flash bang wallop bits. 