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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 25, 2023 10:35:05 GMT
Who is going to make it one? The mere presence of the Polish Royals isn’t going to enrage anyone out of the blue, particularly when there is a war going on. Indeed, outside of the USSR, there isn’t any fundamental anti-monarchist nations out there; American opinion, which isn’t monolithic, isn’t quite as important here…
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 25, 2023 10:43:33 GMT
Who is going to make it one? The mere presence of the Polish Royals isn’t going to enrage anyone out of the blue, particularly when there is a war going on. Indeed, outside of the USSR, there isn’t any fundamental anti-monarchist nations out there; American opinion, which isn’t monolithic, isn’t quite as important here… So it will be no issue for DE Britain. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 25, 2023 10:48:51 GMT
Dark Earth Britain is not against monarchies; quite the contrary.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 25, 2023 13:15:49 GMT
I had almost finished the entire of Part 2, but then lost it all to a glitch, curse it.
In it, Field Marshal Brooke outlines the scratch plan for a landing in Brittany and Normandy under the blanket of air and sea power. It is a very rough and ready adaption of elements of Overlord and more relevantly Sledgehammer, but aimed at being quick and getting a foothold back in France. Pas de Calais was considered, but the chief need is ports away from where the Germans currently have control.
The plan’s name?
Operation Sealion.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 25, 2023 13:59:19 GMT
I had almost finished the entire of Part 2, but then lost it all to a glitch, curse it. In it, Field Marshal Brooke outlines the scratch plan for a landing in Brittany and Normandy under the blanket of air and sea power. It is a very rough and ready adaption of elements of Overlord and more relevantly Sledgehammer, but aimed at being quick and getting a foothold back in France. Pas de Calais was considered, but the chief need is ports away from where the Germans currently have control. The plan’s name? Operation Sealion. Well sorry to hear it, no liking this post for me then. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 26, 2023 14:01:47 GMT
Part 1
0130 June 15 1940
"All of them?"
"That is our belief at this time, Prime Minister. We now have communications with all major overseas units of the Army and RAF, relocated to vacant American bases over the course of the afternoon."
"Thank you, General. Continue with the process of taking stock of the 'newly arrived' forces and equipment in conjunction with your staff. Goodbye."
He turned to the Minister of Magic, who had arrived from Oxford in the rush and confusion of the previous day. "That does tend to settle the matter, does it not, Professor?"
"It would, Prime Minister, insofar as it indicates that whatever has occurred is definitely not natural. Whether or not is supernatural, arcane or something else remains to be seen; we can say definitively that this is beyond our ken and certainly the ability of our foes. It will be many days yet before our wizards can provide more than that."
"Very good, Professor. Carry on then and we shall keep as calm as we can in the knowledge that this is not some more devilish tricks bought forth by the Hitler and his demonic Nazi gang."
Prime Minister Churchill put down his long extinguished Montecristo and looked up at the War Cabinet arrayed around the table. On his right was Minister of War Sir Richard Harcourt, representing the Liberal Party; Foreign Secretary Sir Anthony Eden; the redoubtable Sir John Anderson, Lord President, Home Secretary and Minister of Home Security; Lord Hankey; Minister of Production Lord Beaverbrook; Minister of Labour Ernest Bevin; Cabinet Secretary Sir Edward Bridges; Lord Privy Seal Sir Austen Chamberlain; Deputy Prime Minister Sir Clement Attlee; Chief of the Imperial General Staff Field Marshal Sir Alan Brooke; Chief of the Air Staff Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir Hugh Dowding; and First Sea Lord Admiral of the Fleet Sir William Fisher.
"Well, gentlemen, this is what we know. We have gone from September 1943 to what for all intents and purposes appears to be June of 1940, through an act beyond our understanding that may well turn out to be divine providence. Where there was a world at war, we are now at the very beginning of the long and terrible struggle; yet, by virtue of our years of fighting and production, we can muster forces far beyond the dreams of Hitler and Mussolini in their seeming pomp of victory. There is a great deal of confusion still as to the nature of this war we have been placed into, as our initial reconnoitering and intercepts of enemy broadcasts show a very different world indeed. Norway is effectively lost to Germany and France soon to follow. We shall continue in our efforts to divine what those differences are, as well as make use of conventional means; I have sent a pair of urgent flights to our embassies in Switzerland and Portugal for whatever histories, news and other archives, particularly from the League, that can be sent here for our examination and digestion. The time for consideration, though, is subject to the needs of the war and in many respects, we need action this day. Field Marshal Brooke?"
"Thank you, Prime Minister. We have been in contact with senior British personnel in France to assess the situation and it is, for want of a better word, dire. The French government is on the brink of collapse and asking the Germans for an armistice, pushed by strongly defeatist factions in their Army. Should they succeed and France sue for peace, then we are deprived of our most direct means of engaging and defeating the German Army. We do not have firm intelligence on the size or armament of the enemy at this time other than general figures - 150 divisions and over 3 millions of men, several thousand tanks and over 5000 aircraft. Overall, the balance of forces lies in our favour as, although the Germans can deploy more divisions than us, we have more men and a great preponderance of equipment; in the last instance, our weapons can reasonably be presumed to be more modern than those of Germany three years ago. In any event, if France surrenders, we would then be forced to invade to bring them to battle and to do so without the ships and landing craft supplied by the Americans. Overlord was at least 9 months away and we do not currently have the ships to launch a full scale assault on France with the British and Imperial forces now present at home.
We are currently working on an emergency landing operation based on a partial amalgam of Sledgehammer from last year and limited elements of Overlord, aimed at Brittany and Normandy. Whilst we considered the Pas de Calais, the damage done to the ports there during the fighting in France and evacuation makes them unsuitable to be used for our purposes. Our new plan, and I must reinforce that it is a work in progress, calls for an assault by three divisions, supported by two airborne divisions and large air and sea forces, aimed at seizing Britanny and the Cotentin Peninsula to build up our forces. Our window for such an operation is fairly narrow, encompassing approximately a month from mid July to mid August. For the time being, and as a deceptive measure, it has been designated Operation Sealion. Before we can land troops, though, the main blow that falls upon the enemy must come from the air."
"As matters currently stand, we have sufficient forces to engage this Luftwaffe on quite advantageous terms and defeat them." Dowding said evenly. "In our medium and heavy bomber forces, we have long range striking weapons that the Germans presumably cannot match; our current tactical reconnaissance missions tend to confirm this state of affairs, with no evidence of jet aircraft whatsoever. Regaining air supremacy over Northern France is achievable, but any fighter campaign needs to be accompanied by strategic interdiction of enemy supplies and attacks on their production. When the order is given, we can attack the German Army in France and the Low Countries and give the Luftwaffe the nastiest surprise they have ever encountered."
"Indeed. That we can deal the Nazis a blow is undoubtable, but we must make our moves carefully so that they have maximum effect. To that end, the first targets that the RAF must hit need to be those that hurt the Germans the most, both in terms of how they fight and where they fight. Before we hammer the Ruhr or their U-Boat ports, let us show what can be done. Air Chief Marshal, have Bomber Command attack the dams as soon as possible; the first order of priority is Berlin. Maximum effort. Shifting to the sea, the Grand Fleet has already been ordered to head for home - once in the Mediterranean, they will put paid to Mussolini's fleet and ambitions. Admiral Mountbatten is to take control of the 10 older battleships at Singapore to dissuade the Japanese from any rash steps. The other urgent task that we are capable of accomplishing is putting the Home Fleet to sea and attacking the Germans in Norway; RNAS reconnaissance flights indicate that Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, and Admiral Hipper are all in Norwegian waters. To that end, Admiral Tovey sailed last night."
"We are quite confident that his 8 carriers, 12 battleships, 25 cruisers and 60 destroyers will be able to do the job, Prime Minister." said the First Sea Lord. "Actually liberating Norway will be somewhat more complex, but brute force has a virtue of its own in this situation."
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 26, 2023 14:23:20 GMT
I would agree with most of that with the possible exception of the plans for the strategic air forces. It took a lot of training for operations against the Ruhr damns and unless their pretty much ready to go that would need some preparation.
Similarly I would put the Ruhr ahead of Berlin as a priority target for the bulk of the forces. Even with the shorter distances and much weaker defences Berlin is too far for the guidance systems of the time and a much larger and less centralized target. There is some evidence that until Harris switched the primary target to Berlin the attacks on the Ruhr and other industrial areas in western Germany were doing a lot of damage and seriously impacting the German economy.
Does he and others in the cabinet realise the differences in distances compared to DE? That would seriously impact a lot of plans and while the shorter distances would be an advantage for the DE UK forces prepared for longer distances it will also throw a lot of plans off.
Have telegraph lines across the oceans been breach or preserved/adjusted in some way. That would give rapid communications with Canada for instance and possibly other locations as well.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 26, 2023 14:34:24 GMT
Steve,
The Dams op historically took 8 weeks to train and prepare, but they aren’t quite operating in the same situation, which could shorten the required prep time. It will be a bouncing bomb + earthquake bomb combined attack by Lancs and Windsors/Victory Bombers.
The Ruhr is the priority, but what did hitting Berlin make Hitler do historically? Demand a response in kind in rage. Luring the Luftwaffe into attacking London brings the full force of Fighter Command to bear.
That particular issue is filtering through and will have the type of issues you anticipate.
The telegraph lines are intact.
Simon
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 26, 2023 16:28:03 GMT
Steve, The Dams op historically took 8 weeks to train and prepare, but they aren’t quite operating in the same situation, which could shorten the required prep time. It will be a bouncing bomb + earthquake bomb combined attack by Lancs and Windsors/Victory Bombers. The Ruhr is the priority, but what did hitting Berlin make Hitler do historically? Demand a response in kind in rage. Luring the Luftwaffe into attacking London brings the full force of Fighter Command to bear. That particular issue is filtering through and will have the type of issues you anticipate. The telegraph lines are intact. Simon
Simon
Ah, I see your point about the 1940 scenario OTL but I think the same would apply with massive attacks elsewhere, such as the Ruhr. Plus given the immense disparity of forces the RAF is going to mince the Luftwaffe just about anywhere, although over Britain would give the best odds. If you mean its going to be a couple of brief - but very heavy - attacks before more valuable targets are hit there's another thing.
One other thing. Once the shorter range of OTL is realised would BC consider moving to day-time raids with long ranged fighter escort? Possibly if the Luftwaffe don't take the bait but that would force them up and away from any battle in France and also give better accuracy with bombing operations.
Valid point with the dam attacks. I thought it took longer but also using earthquake bombs carried by Lanc or Windsors would also if they can get hits be even more effective.
Steve
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 26, 2023 21:24:06 GMT
Steve,
Hitting the Ruhr and industrial targets is the second priority, but sending over 2000 bombers to Berlin makes an unmistakable statement of intent and resolve, as well as hopefully provoking the @ reaction. It isn’t to be a protracted campaign, but a ‘one night only’ tour. As you say, the RAF will defeat the Luftwaffe anywhere, but getting them over Britain provides the best odds and also permanently removes downed German pilots from the fight.
Escorted day bombing is quite within the range of the RAF’s nominal capabilities and will be employed at a certain point.
The Lancs will use the Upkeeps and the Windsors the earthquake bombs, for the second time for DE Operation Chastise.
Simon
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 28, 2023 12:10:12 GMT
Overseas RAF Forces
RAF Iceland (159)
84 North American Mustangs
75 Hawker Hurricanes
RAF Norway (750)
240 Hawker Hurricanes
138 Supermarine Spitfires
128 Bristol Beaufighters
100 North American Mustangs
80 de Havilland Mosquitoes SF
40 Vickers Victorias
24 Westland Lysanders
RAF Mediterranean Air Force (2587)
432 Hawker Hurricanes
364 Supermarine Spitfires
260 Vickers Wellington
256 Bristol Buckinghams
246 Armstrong-Whitworth Winchesters
231 Republic Thunderbolts
124 Hawker Tempests
104 de Havilland Mosquito SB
102 Bristol Beaufighters
100 North American Mustangs
95 Vickers Victorias
78 de Havilland Mosquito PR
72 Lockheed Lightning PR
70 de Havilland Mosquito SF
- Supports British and Allied operations in Italy, Spain and the Western Mediterranean
- Rebadged from the Desert Air Force
RAF Middle East Air Force (1703)
429 Hawker Hurricanes
356 Supermarine Spitfires
203 Armstrong Whitworth Winchesters
287 Curtiss Tomahawks
236 Vickers Wellingtons
142 Bristol Buckinghams
87 de Havilland Mosquito SB
60 Lockheed Lightnings
56 Vickers Victorias
- Supports British operations in the Middle East, Egypt, Greece and the Eastern Mediterranean
- Strategic bombing against Bulgaria and Romania - Maintenance of armistice with Ottoman Turkey
RAF India (1710)
379 Hawker Hurricanes
326 Armstrong Whitworth Winchesters
254 Supermarine Spitfires
247 Republic Thunderbolts
219 Vickers Wellingtons
132 Avro Lancasters
52 Vickers Victoria
- Defence of India, Afghanistan and Persia
- Support of Imperial operations on the Burma Front
- Strategic Bombing of SE Asia and China
RAF Far East Air Force (2564)
429 Supermarine Spitfires
408 Hawker Hurricanes
324 Curtiss Tomahawks
254 Vickers Wellingtons
250 Bristol Buckinghams
220 Republic Thunderbolts
162 Armstrong Whitworth Winchesters
144 Bristol Buckinghams
108 Bristol Beaufighters
106 Vickers Victorias
87 North American Mustangs
72 Lockheed Lightnings
- Support of Imperial operations in Malaya, Southern Burma, Siam, Indochina and Sumatra
- Aerial interdiction over South East Asia
- Strategic Bombing of DEI
- Support of Grand Fleet
RAF Australia (337)
125 Supermarine Spitfires
96 North American Mustangs
80 de Havilland Mosquitoes
36 Avro Lancasters
- Air Defence of Australia
- Strategic Bombing of DEI and SP
- The arrival of these forces, even using the US bases, is such as to push the logistical support capacity of the RAF
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 28, 2023 12:26:16 GMT
British Army Major Overseas Deployed Forces September 1943
Norway
XXII Corps
Light Division
34th Infantry Division
57th (2nd West Lancashire) Infantry Division
60th (Somerset) Infantry Division
73rd Infantry Division
Sixth Army (Spain)
XIII Corps
9th Infantry Division
16th Armoured Division
37th Infantry Division
69th Infantry Division
XV Corps
13th Infantry Division
14th Armoured Division
20th Infantry Division
58th (Ulster) Infantry Division
Seventh Army (Greece)
36th Infantry Division
XVI Corps
13th Armoured Division
17th Infantry Division
39th Infantry Division
XXXX Corps
11th Armoured Division
19th Infantry Division
75th Infantry Division
Eighth Army (Italy)
XIV Corps
Guards Armoured Division
16th Infantry Division
29th Infantry Division
63rd Infantry Division
XXI Corps
7th Armoured Division
25th Infantry Division
47th (1st London) Division
50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division
XX Corps
49th (West Riding) Infantry Division
52nd (Lowland) Division
53rd (Welsh) Infantry Division
70th Infantry Division
XVIII Corps
6th Armoured Division
43rd (Wessex) Infantry Division
61st Infantry Division
78th Infantry Division
III Polish Corps
7th Polish Infantry Division
8th Polish Armoured Division
9th Polish Infantry Division
10th Polish Infantry Division
Ninth Army (Egypt)
Jewish Division
Imperial Camel Corps
Tenth Army (Iraq and Syria)
XXXXII Corps
33rd Infantry Division
62nd Infantry Division
74th Infantry Division
1st Cavalry Division
2nd Cavalry Division
Eleventh Army (Burma)
11th Infantry Division
21st Infantry Division
76th Infantry Division
Twelfth Army (Indochina)
XXV Corps
8th Armoured Division
23rd Infantry Division
40th Infantry Division
72nd Infantry Division
XXXII Corps
15th Infantry Division
18th Infantry Division
42nd (East Lancashire) Infantry Division
67th Infantry Division
Gurkha Corps
1st Gurkha Division
2nd Gurkha Division
3rd Gurkha Division
4th Gurkha Division
Australia
24th Infantry Division
30th Infantry Division
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 28, 2023 13:24:38 GMT
In addition to the orbats above, I've also edited in the Home Forces to one of the earlier posts.
Regarding British monthly aircraft production, it does turn out to be close to proportional to the overall monthly production figure, adjusted for size and industry
DE September 1943 British Aircraft Production: 3624 aircraft
1414 fighters
102 transports
159 attack + 197 light bombers
148 MPA
284 medium bombers
529 heavy bombers
341 FAA
483 trainers
Historical September 1943 British Aircraft Production: 2335
428 HB
220 MB
15 LB
973 F
105 R
29 T
150 FAA
415 Trainers
- Heavy bomber production is slightly below where we'd expect it to be, but is going to lift markedly as a new Lancaster plant begins production in York + the Avro York superheavy bomber begins production in October + Halifax production hitting its target rate of 240/month by November with new facilities
- Historically, light bomber production had shriveled up in the face of the shift to the fighter-bomber and US LL aircraft
- Medium bombers are due to lift
- Fighter production is actually a bit low, but is in the process of lifting as the jets start to pour off the production line. The Hurricane was due to wind down production in Britain proper in early 1944 in favour of the Tempest and the Fury
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 28, 2023 13:54:40 GMT
British Army Major Overseas Deployed Forces September 1943NorwayXXII CorpsLight Division 34th Infantry Division 57th (2nd West Lancashire) Infantry Division 60th (Somerset) Infantry Division 73rd Infantry Division Sixth Army (Spain)XIII Corps 9th Infantry Division 16th Armoured Division 37th Infantry Division 69th Infantry Division XV Corps 13th Infantry Division 14th Armoured Division 20th Infantry Division 58th (Ulster) Infantry Division Seventh Army (Greece)36th Infantry Division XVI Corps 13th Armoured Division 17th Infantry Division 39th Infantry Division XXXX Corps 11th Armoured Division 19th Infantry Division 75th Infantry Division Eighth Army (Italy)XIV Corps Guards Armoured Division 16th Infantry Division 29th Infantry Division 63rd Infantry Division XXI Corps 7th Armoured Division 25th Infantry Division 47th (1st London) Division 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division XX Corps 49th (West Riding) Infantry Division 52nd (Lowland) Division 53rd (Welsh) Infantry Division 70th Infantry Division XVIII Corps 6th Armoured Division 43rd (Wessex) Infantry Division 61st Infantry Division 78th Infantry Division III Polish Corps 7th Polish Infantry Division 8th Polish Armoured Division 9th Polish Infantry Division 10th Polish Infantry Division Ninth Army (Egypt)Jewish Division Imperial Camel Corps Tenth Army (Iraq and Syria)XXXXII Corps 33rd Infantry Division 62nd Infantry Division 74th Infantry Division 1st Cavalry Division 2nd Cavalry Division Eleventh Army (Burma)11th Infantry Division 21st Infantry Division 76th Infantry Division Twelfth Army (Indochina)XXV Corps 8th Armoured Division 23rd Infantry Division 40th Infantry Division 72nd Infantry Division XXXII Corps 15th Infantry Division 18th Infantry Division 42nd (East Lancashire) Infantry Division 67th Infantry Division Gurkha Corps 1st Gurkha Division 2nd Gurkha Division 3rd Gurkha Division 4th Gurkha Division Australia24th Infantry Division 30th Infantry Division So if these forces are also brought along, some might be in countries that do not want them like Spain, ore am i reading it wrong. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 28, 2023 14:20:18 GMT
Second line of Part 2:
"We now have communications with all major overseas units of the Army and RAF, relocated to vacant American bases over the course of the afternoon."
It is stated very clearly.
Downtime British Army Forces June 15 1940
France: 1st Armoured Division, 52nd (Lowland) Division, 1st Canadian Division, Beauman Division
Egypt: 7th Armoured Division, 4th Indian Division, 6th Australian Division (-), 4th NZ Brigade
Palestine: 1st Cavalry Division (+ equivalent to an infantry division)
Sudan: 5th Indian Division
Malta: 1 reinforced brigade
- 2nd Canadian Division and 1st South African Infantry Division ready in July and August respectively
- 5th NZ and 18th Australian Brigade arrive Britain (Clyde) June 17th on Convoy US 3
- I'm going to do some chasing down of what battalions were in India in June 1940
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