stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 28, 2023 22:13:39 GMT
British Army Major Overseas Deployed Forces September 1943NorwayXXII CorpsLight Division 34th Infantry Division 57th (2nd West Lancashire) Infantry Division 60th (Somerset) Infantry Division 73rd Infantry Division Sixth Army (Spain)XIII Corps 9th Infantry Division 16th Armoured Division 37th Infantry Division 69th Infantry Division XV Corps 13th Infantry Division 14th Armoured Division 20th Infantry Division 58th (Ulster) Infantry Division Seventh Army (Greece)36th Infantry Division XVI Corps 13th Armoured Division 17th Infantry Division 39th Infantry Division XXXX Corps 11th Armoured Division 19th Infantry Division 75th Infantry Division Eighth Army (Italy)XIV Corps Guards Armoured Division 16th Infantry Division 29th Infantry Division 63rd Infantry Division XXI Corps 7th Armoured Division 25th Infantry Division 47th (1st London) Division 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division XX Corps 49th (West Riding) Infantry Division 52nd (Lowland) Division 53rd (Welsh) Infantry Division 70th Infantry Division XVIII Corps 6th Armoured Division 43rd (Wessex) Infantry Division 61st Infantry Division 78th Infantry Division III Polish Corps 7th Polish Infantry Division 8th Polish Armoured Division 9th Polish Infantry Division 10th Polish Infantry Division Ninth Army (Egypt)Jewish Division Imperial Camel Corps Tenth Army (Iraq and Syria)XXXXII Corps 33rd Infantry Division 62nd Infantry Division 74th Infantry Division 1st Cavalry Division 2nd Cavalry Division Eleventh Army (Burma)11th Infantry Division 21st Infantry Division 76th Infantry Division Twelfth Army (Indochina)XXV Corps 8th Armoured Division 23rd Infantry Division 40th Infantry Division 72nd Infantry Division XXXII Corps 15th Infantry Division 18th Infantry Division 42nd (East Lancashire) Infantry Division 67th Infantry Division Gurkha Corps 1st Gurkha Division 2nd Gurkha Division 3rd Gurkha Division 4th Gurkha Division Australia24th Infantry Division 30th Infantry Division So if these forces are also brought along, some might be in countries that do not want them like Spain, ore am i reading it wrong.
No I think all those units have been brought to the transported DE UK 43, in most parts replacing US forces which have been lost. As with the overseas based a/c in the previous post where Simon said
Otherwise as you say there would be serious issues in a lot of locations such as Spain, Greece - the French with forces appearing in Syria and FIC and of course the 20 divisions of 8th Army in Italy, which would definitely cause Mussolini some concern.
Steve
PS - Duh I didn't read the next post where Simon said that! 
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 29, 2023 0:46:47 GMT
Quite fine.
For a substantial amount of them, they will not be staying in Britain for a very long time, but will rather be redeployed as transport assets are available according to priority and proximity
1.) Return to Norway: 2 corps/6 divisions
2.) Occupation of Iceland: 1 division
3.) Malta: 1 division
4.) Reinforcement of Egypt: 2 corps + 1 reinforced corps/10 divisions
5.) Reinforcement of Palestine and the Middle East: 1 corps/3 divisions
6.) East Africa: 2 divisions
7.) Defence of Malaya and Singapore: 2 corps/6 divisions
8.) Hong Kong: 1 division
9.) Contingency force for operations against Spain: 6 divisions
10.) Crete and Greece: 2 corps/6 divisions
11.) Burma: 1 corps/3 divisions
12.) India: 1 corps/3 divisions
Total: 48 divisions
BEF: 80 divisions
Home Defence, Training and Strategic Reserve: 25 divisions
Downtime Forces: ~ 12 divisions
There is a limited capacity for airlifting divisions via the skyship fleet; 8 will carry an armoured division and its equipment, or 5 for an infantry division. This will only be exercised for Malta and Egypt in the initial wave, as after a few weeks, the groundwork for using them on the Transatlantic supply/trade routes will be ironed out.
The steps towards demobilisation, both of men and production, will be put on hold until the end of the 'New Emergency Situation', which will be defined as the war in Europe against Germany and Italy, the spectre of war against Japan, the potential threat of a Fascist Spain and the nebulous intentions of the USSR. There won't be nearly as much wastage as anticipated, though.
I'll try and put together the reaction of President Roosevelt and Tokyo, as well as the more obvious groups.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 29, 2023 8:37:18 GMT
Quite fine. For a substantial amount of them, they will not be staying in Britain for a very long time, but will rather be redeployed as transport assets are available according to priority and proximity 1.) Return to Norway: 2 corps/6 divisions 2.) Occupation of Iceland: 1 division 3.) Malta: 1 division 4.) Reinforcement of Egypt: 2 corps + 1 reinforced corps/10 divisions 5.) Reinforcement of Palestine and the Middle East: 1 corps/3 divisions 6.) East Africa: 2 divisions 7.) Defence of Malaya and Singapore: 2 corps/6 divisions 8.) Hong Kong: 1 division 9.) Contingency force for operations against Spain: 6 divisions 10.) Crete and Greece: 2 corps/6 divisions 11.) Burma: 1 corps/3 divisions 12.) India: 1 corps/3 divisions Total: 48 divisions BEF: 80 divisions Home Defence, Training and Strategic Reserve: 25 divisions Downtime Forces: ~ 12 divisions There is a limited capacity for airlifting divisions via the skyship fleet; 8 will carry an armoured division and its equipment, or 5 for an infantry division. This will only be exercised for Malta and Egypt in the initial wave, as after a few weeks, the groundwork for using them on the Transatlantic supply/trade routes will be ironed out. The steps towards demobilisation, both of men and production, will be put on hold until the end of the 'New Emergency Situation', which will be defined as the war in Europe against Germany and Italy, the spectre of war against Japan, the potential threat of a Fascist Spain and the nebulous intentions of the USSR. There won't be nearly as much wastage as anticipated, though. I'll try and put together the reaction of President Roosevelt and Tokyo, as well as the more obvious groups.
Well that sounds like Britain has already given up on France but is considering seriously operations against Spain and possibly the USSR.
Forgotten the skyships but are they reliant in OTL or dependent on magic to any great degree in which case they could have problems when they get outside Britain.
6 divs to Malaya will make Japan sit up, especially since those will be full strength ones but doubtful that even with the power of the DE forces a division to Hong Kong could be a mistake.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 29, 2023 11:52:08 GMT
They haven't so much as given up on France as been hit with a major dose of adjustment; in the next section, Harcourt as Minister of War and Brooke will try to curtail a bit of Churchill's characteristically mercurial enthusiasm for immediate action, which is driven in no small way by shock. Put simply, it is a matter of logistics. Simply talking about establishing a Breton Redoubt for the build up of land forces runs into the issues of shipping, supplies, amphibious craft, planning and half a hundred other individually small factors that add up to something quite considerable. They know from their own experience of 1940 that a hastily put together invasion plan results in failure.
The counter strategy that will be advocating is:
A.) Find our feet and figure out the lie of the land (size of enemy forces, composition, capabilities)
B.) Engage and wear down the Luftwaffe, using the apparent British advantage in aircraft production (which they are assuming based on their own knowledge/hindsight of 1940)
C.) Move forces to shore up the weak points of the Imperial position (Malta and Egypt in particular)
D.) Get the Grand Fleet home, or at least to the Mediterranean, where they can do terribly mean things to the Regia Marina
E.) Cut the Germans out of Norway and, in doing so, deal them a serious naval blow
Britain can lose nothing by waiting, but in doing so, France will likely head down a path that complicates things. Reynaud didn't have a very strong position or strong hand, with even the @ Franco-British Union offer being 'spun' in a negative fashion by the strong defeatist faction. However, various British actions will increase the chance for some sort of a bug out to North Africa.
The opinions regarding Spain are coloured by their experiences in 1941-1943 in DE, where a Fascist takeover lead to all sorts of strategic problems. They are wary of it for reasons that don't exist here, but they don't know that.
Action against the USSR is very, very unlikely, but they are back in a situation where it is a de facto Axis partner rather than a cobelligerent as happened in DE post 1941; the DE prewar attitudes to the Soviets are rather cooler for many reasons.
The Japanese are already going to have conniptions on account of 10 battleships in Singapore and the size of the Grand Fleet, which will be widely publicized by the BBC once the size of the downtime IJN is realised. A division to Hong Kong is just a start, with a further corps and tactical air forces to follow. There is no love lost in regard to how the 1943 DE British view the Japanese.
As a bit of a coda, the USN of 30 June 1940 has 15 battleships (+ 7 under construction and 4 ordered), 6 aircraft carriers (+ 1 under construction), 37 cruisers (+ 4 under construction), 185 destroyers, 64 submarines, 36 mine warfare vessels and 19 patrol vessels. Their shock will be profound, even in the situation of the British being viewed quite positively; the shock experienced by nations that have ended up at war with them or are decidedly unfriendly towards them (in the case of Tokyo) will be even more seismic.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 30, 2023 15:14:09 GMT
Part 3
“Circumspection. Simple as that, my dear Winston.”
“Pray expand, Richard. Expand as to why, when God gives us an opportunity, we should not seize it?”
Harcourt gave a tiny internal sigh at Churchill’s mercurial nature. This was not the first time that he or Brooke had sought to curb the Prime Minister’s instincts, with varying degrees of success.
“It has been around 36 hours since our arrival, if I can put it that way. We have at best partial intelligence on not only the Germans but the world at large that we find ourselves in. Now that our relative position with regard to air and land forces is established, do we necessarily lose anything by not committing ourselves to immediate general offensive action?”
“I would tend to concur, Prime Minister. Whilst we can launch an offensive into France, the longer we take to prepare it, the more our likelihood of total success. Our window for a cross-Channel invasion, if it comes to it, extends to mid September, just as the German one did back in 1940…well, our 1940. Even then, we would be dealing with a number of unknown variables, ranging from the weather to the French. We’ve spent a year and a half planning and preparing Overlord and we still had another 9 months yet to go.” said Brooke.
“We are not going to leave Europe to the mercy of Nazi tyranny for that long. We are delivered here to provide for a much swifter end to this war and their bloody murder.”
“That isn’t what I’d suggest at all, Winston. I’m all for action this day as much as you, but it depends on what action. If we shift our immediate steps to the periphery, as it were, then we keep the vast part of our strengths and options open. Every week that goes by makes us stronger, after all. We went through the production plans back in August; this month, we will add 480 tanks, all of them the new Super Crusader, at least 1200 carriers and 1000 guns, not to mention 7 new destroyers, 500 Spitfires, 250 rockets and 6 LSTs.”
“The last are what we really need, Prime Minister - not just LSTs, but all manner of landing craft as well. We’ve got what we had here at home, but we are now without not just the production from the United States, but also Canada. Whilst I cannot say it conclusively until we have more intelligence on the numbers and equipment of this Germany, I am fairly sure that we can outproduce them in every major category of military equipment for the rest of the year, cementing our advantage.”
“If not France, then where?”
“Two places: Norway and Egypt. In Norway, we can maul their fleet, as we discussed earlier, whilst having a relatively nearby combat theatre in which to gauge Jerry’s capabilities. In Egypt, we can wrap up Italian North Africa before the end of autumn.” Harcourt stabbed at the map with his pencil to emphasise each point.
“Very well. Unless Ironside’s mission to the French encounters some dramatic success on the morrow, we can work towards that basis. Whatever their decision, we will start hitting the Germans from the air, including letting Harris loose on Berlin. That will be a quite decisive factor that will show that, far from being stricken by the looming collapse of our ally, we are prepared to fight and win. To that end, have the Dover Guns begin firing across the Channel and have the BBC include a piece on the Grand Fleet heading back to us.”
Harcourt smiled. “I quite agree, Prime Minister. It is about sending a message.”
“Speaking of which, I have a cable to dictate to President Roosevelt before bed. That will be a rather interesting endeavour.”
………………….
“This is London calling in the overseas service of the British Broadcasting Corporation. Here is the news. The main force of the Grand Fleet under Admiral Cunningham has been ordered home from the Far East, with 27 battleships, 60 aircraft carriers, 72 cruisers and 214 destroyers and escorts already underway; Admiral Mountbatten is to remain at Singapore with ten older 18” capital ships. The Prime Minister, Mr Churchill, has called upon Italy and Germany to surrender whilst they still can and that it was only a matter of time until all of conquered Europe would be liberated. Morning has come.”
…………..
Washington D.C.
President Franklin Roosevelt took a drag from his cigarette holder and then exhaled, just a tad more forcefully than usual.
“Do you have any idea what the British are playing at, Admiral?”
“Mr. President, short of them going completely mad, the only possible explanation is propaganda, but this frankly does seem to be of the most transparent kind possible. I can’t see who they are trying to fool, lying like this.”
“Perhaps it is something to do with the confusion of the last day or so and the French being on the brink of surrender.”
“Yes, Mr. President. Whatever it is, it will soon become clear.”
…………………
Admiral Yamamoto sat and thought. Surely, this could not be true in any way.
The alternative did not even bear thinking about.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 30, 2023 15:16:15 GMT
Part 3 “This is London calling in the overseas service of the British Broadcasting Corporation. Here is the news. The main force of the Grand Fleet under Admiral Cunningham has been ordered home from the Far East, with 27 battleships, 60 aircraft carriers, 72 cruisers and 214 destroyers and escorts already underway; Admiral Mountbatten is to remain at Singapore with ten older 18” capital ships. The Prime Minister, Mr Churchill, has called upon Italy and Germany to surrender whilst they still can and that it was only a matter of time until all of conquered Europe would be liberated. Morning has come.” 60 aircraft carriers, that is a lot. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 30, 2023 15:36:32 GMT
As outlined on the first page of the thread, it comes from the 17 fleet carriers, 8 light fleets and 35 escort carriers in the Grand Fleet. Given that no one else has any CVEs yet, they will be flummoxed by the numbers and quite disbelieve them.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 30, 2023 15:38:33 GMT
As outlined on the first page of the thread, it comes from the 17 fleet carriers, 8 light fleets and 35 escort carriers in the Grand Fleet. Given that no one else has any CVEs yet, they will be flummoxed by the numbers and quite disbelieve them. That will be a sight to see if the pass the Suez canal. Ore will they take the long trip around Africa. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 30, 2023 15:48:12 GMT
The intent is for Suez, as their arrival signals the start of naval operations against Italy. Given the size of the Regia Aeronautica in 1940, it promises to be a bit one sided. ”The forces within the Territorial Air Zones based in Italy were organized as follows: Northern Zone: 7 wings of bombers (approx. 315 planes) and 3 wings (plus one group) of CR-42 fighters (approx. 210 planes); Central Zone: three wings of bombers (approx. 135 planes) and two wings and a group of fighter planes (approx. 150 planes); Southern Zone: five bomber wings (approx. 225 planes) and one fighter wing as well as an autonomous fighter group (approx. 90 planes) and dive bomber group (approx. 25 planes); South-Eastern Zone: one wing of night-bombers (approx. 45 planes) and float-planes and a group of obsolescent CR-32 fighters (approx. 30 planes). the largest of the overseas commands was that based in Libya and comprised four bomber wings (approx. 180 planes) ; a fighter wing and three other fighter groups (approx. 150 planes) ; and two groups plus two squadrons of colonial reconnaissance aircraft (approx. 60 planes). The Italian Air Force begun the war with nearly 2,000 operational aircraft ready for combat and with almost the same number in reserve.” www.ww2-weapons.com/italian-air-force-and-navy/ |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 30, 2023 15:50:33 GMT
The intent is for Suez, as their arrival signals the start of naval operations against Italy. Given the size of the Regia Aeronautica in 1940, it promises to be a bit one sided. So a lot of Taranto raids with a lot more planes and for a longer time. Also the ten older 18” capital ships that remain in Singapore, how are they compared to the Imperial Japanese Navy battleships. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 30, 2023 16:07:19 GMT
By a lot, read ~2500 aircraft available to the Grand Fleet.
At Singapore, there are Warspite , Valiant , Queen Elizabeth, Barham, Queen Victoria, Royal Oak, Revenge, Ramillies, Reprisal and Resolution.
The QEs are ~50,000t with 8 x 18” and 24 x 5.25”, 15” belts and speeds of 28 knots, whilst the Rs are slightly larger but with the same armament and speed.
The IJN has
Fuso: 29,326t, 12 x 14”, 16 x 6”, 12” belt and 23 knots
Yamashiro: 29,326t, 12 x 14”, 16 x 6”, 12” belt and 23 knots
Hyuga: 31,260t, 12 x 14”, 20 x 5.5”, 11.8” belt and 23 knots
Ise: 31,260t, 12 x 14”, 20 x 5.5”, 11.8” belt and 23 knots
Nagato: 32,720t, 8 x 16”, 20 x 5.5”, 12” belt and 26.5 knots
Mutsu: 32,720t, 8 x 16”, 20 x 5.5”, 12” belt and 26.5 knots
Kongo: 32,156t, 8 x 14”, 8 x 6”, 12 x 5”, 8” belt and 30.5 knots
Kirishima: 32,156t, 8 x 14”, 8 x 6”, 12 x 5”, 8” belt and 30.5 knots
Haruna: 32,156t, 8 x 14”, 8 x 6”, 12 x 5”, 8” belt and 30.5 knots
Hiei: 32,156t, 8 x 14”, 8 x 6”, 12 x 5”, 8” belt and 30.5 knots
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 30, 2023 16:21:03 GMT
The QEs are ~50,000t with 8 x 18” and 24 x 5.25”, 15” belts and speeds of 28 knots, whilst the Rs are slightly larger but with the same armament and speed. The IJN has Fuso: 29,326t, 12 x 14”, 16 x 6”, 12” belt and 23 knots Yamashiro: 29,326t, 12 x 14”, 16 x 6”, 12” belt and 23 knots Hyuga: 31,260t, 12 x 14”, 20 x 5.5”, 11.8” belt and 23 knots Ise: 31,260t, 12 x 14”, 20 x 5.5”, 11.8” belt and 23 knots Nagato: 32,720t, 8 x 16”, 20 x 5.5”, 12” belt and 26.5 knots Mutsu: 32,720t, 8 x 16”, 20 x 5.5”, 12” belt and 26.5 knots Kongo: 32,156t, 8 x 14”, 8 x 6”, 12 x 5”, 8” belt and 30.5 knots Kirishima: 32,156t, 8 x 14”, 8 x 6”, 12 x 5”, 8” belt and 30.5 knots Haruna: 32,156t, 8 x 14”, 8 x 6”, 12 x 5”, 8” belt and 30.5 knots Hiei: 32,156t, 8 x 14”, 8 x 6”, 12 x 5”, 8” belt and 30.5 knots Admiral Yamamoto will now have the means to hammer Tojo, do not start a war, the royal Navy will decimate us. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 30, 2023 23:24:56 GMT
At a minimum, it provides ammunition for the Strike North group, although that is weighed against the previous performance of the IJA against the Red Army.
On a further issue, every potential future Luftwaffe bomber, Stuka, fighter and heavy fighter airfield used by Luftflotte 2 and 3 in the BoB is within 300 miles of Southern English bases, or a bit further from the East Anglian bomber bases. That brings all of the RAF’s 3800+ fighter-bombers*, 363 dive bombers, strike fighters and 1423 light/attack bombers within range, plus the ~1300 mediums, 524 Mossies and heavies.
*
726 Mustangs
698 Thunderbolts
611 Tomahawks
2292 Hurricanes
930 Typhoons
338 Beaufighters
386 Mosquito SF
3190 Spitfires
969 Tempests
The initial wave of air attacks:
1.) Fighter-bombers and bombers attack Rommel’s 7th Panzer Division between Le Havre and Cherbourg
2.) 5th Panzer Division engaged and destroyed
3.) Fighter and fighter-bomber attack on airfields in Low Countries
4.) Every airfield in Northern France
Location of Panzer Divisions:
1st Panzer: Belfort
2nd Panzer: Central France
3rd Panzer: Western France
4th Panzer: Grenoble
5th Panzer: Brest
6th Panzer: Encirclement near Maginot Line
8th Panzer: Western France
9th Panzer: Lyon
10th Panzer: Western France
Selected German Aircraft Production 1940
Do 17: 260
Do 217: 20
He 111: 756
Ju 88: 1816 + 88 NF
Me 109: 1667
Me 110: 1006
Ju 87: 603
Ju 52: 388
Losses BoF
Me 109: 257
Me 110: 110
Ju 87: 122
Bombers: 521
Ju 52: 213
German aircraft production by year
year combat other
1933 0 368
1934 840 1,128
1935 1,823 1,360
1936 2,530 2,582
1937 2,651 2,955
1938 3,350 1,885
1939 4,733 3,562
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 31, 2023 8:13:50 GMT
At a minimum, it provides ammunition for the Strike North group, although that is weighed against the previous performance of the IJA against the Red Army. Doubt the United Kingdom is going allow that to happen as well, also if Germany is going to face Battle of Germany, the Soviet Union will not be invaded and thus will be in a stronger position to stomp Japan if needed. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 31, 2023 8:35:38 GMT
At this point, it is very much the British Empire, not just a single island state off the Continent; this is reflected in the general descriptive discourse of the time.
Nomenclature aside, the IJA is likely to be too spooked by Khalkin Gol to go to war with the USSR and, at the moment, their choices are a death ride into the teeth of a prepared British/Commonwealth force or something like the TBOverse fizzle.
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