Fall and Rise: A WW2 ISOT

[lordroel]

Apr 6, 2023 3:55:43 GMT simon darkshade said:

Air dropped from a Lancaster and surface launched. I bought the Rolls Royce Armaments book a decade or more ago, but it is in storage with the rest of my library. From my recollection, it was quite detailed.

Helmover can't be compared to a Tallboy save in very general dimensions. One is a torpedo and one is an aerial bomb.

So how amused is the DE Royal Navy that the OTL Kriegsmarine of 1940 is only a fraction i assume of DE Kriegsmarine.

[simon darkshade]

Not so much amused as glad. The fewer German ships that need to be sunk = the fewer men that need to risk their lives or die in order to do so.

The KM currently consists of one pocket battleship Admiral Scheer (Wilhelmshaven) and two light cruisers Emden (Swinemunde) and Koln (Kiel).
Leipzig and Lutzow are repairing and incomplete are Bismarck (fitting out at Hamburg), Tirpitz (building at Wilhelmshaven), Graf Zeppelin (Kiel), Prinz Eugen (fitting out at Kiel) and Seydlitz (95% complete in Bremen). Beyond that are merely destroyers and fleet torpedo boats and the German light surface vessels of WW2 didn't have particularly formidable AA suites.

Dealing with the current array of cruisers and battleships isn't a particularly difficult task; every day, the Grand Fleet makes about 400nm through the Indian Ocean...

[lordroel]

Apr 6, 2023 14:43:56 GMT simon darkshade said:

Not so much amused as glad. The fewer German ships that need to be sunk = the fewer men that need to risk their lives or die in order to do so.

The KM currently consists of one pocket battleship Admiral Scheer (Wilhelmshaven) and two light cruisers Emden (Swinemunde) and Koln (Kiel).
Leipzig and Lutzow are repairing and incomplete are Bismarck (fitting out at Hamburg), Tirpitz (building at Wilhelmshaven), Graf Zeppelin (Kiel), Prinz Eugen (fitting out at Kiel) and Seydlitz (95% complete in Bremen). Beyond that are merely destroyers and fleet torpedo boats and the German light surface vessels of WW2 didn't have particularly formidable AA suites.

Dealing with the current array of cruisers and battleships isn't a particularly difficult task; every day, the Grand Fleet makes about 400nm through the Indian Ocean...

So we will see a massive air strike against Kiel, Hamburg and Wilhelmshaven to deal with the ships still under construction.

[simon darkshade]

There is an option for a carrier air strike and an option for a Bomber Command maximum effort strike. There is also an option of mining them in and not risking aircraft going after them. If Norway is retaken, their door out slams shut.

The level of threat that Bismarck and Tirpitz offer here is extremely low given the battleships available to the Home Fleet.

[lordroel]

Apr 6, 2023 16:01:28 GMT simon darkshade said:

The level of threat that Bismarck and Tirpitz offer here is extremely low given the battleships available to the Home Fleet.

Well the DE Royal Navy can make sure in getting Grand admiral Erich Raeder unemployed, leaving only Karl Dönitz and his submarines left to face the might of the DE Royal Navy.

[simon darkshade]

There are very few submarines in 1940, with the 54 available submarines at the start of the year joined over the course of 1940 by…50 U-Boats. I’ll dig out the losses to June 14, (Edit: 13 U-Boats) but they will increase against the combination of very large escort forces, full air cover, technology and the lack of any extant French bases to this point.




14 June
German submarine U-47 sank British ship Balmoralwood southwest of Ireland; the crew of 41 would later be rescued.
German submarine U-101 stopped Greek ship Antonis Georgandis 300 miles west of Cape Finisterre, Spain with two warning shots from the submarine's 20mm deck gun. After the crew abandoned the ship, U-101 sank her with the deck gun. 
German submarine U-38 sank Greek ship Mount Myrto southwest of Ireland, killing 4. 

15 June
German submarine U-38 attacked Allied convoy HX-47 60 miles west of the Isles of Scilly off of southwestern England at 0100 hours, sinking Norwegian tanker Italia (killing 19, 16 were recsued) and Canadian ship Erik Boye (21 were rescued). British sloop HMS Fowley would bring the survivors to Plymouth, England on the following day.

16 June
The German submarine UA, which had been following British armed merchant cruiser HMS Andania for the past three days, fired two torpedoes south east of Iceland at 0029 hours; one of them struck the ship aft. Another torpedo launched eight minutes later also hit but failed to detonate. The Andania opened fire with her guns after seeing the torpedo wake but owing to rough seas and the darkness scored no hits. The ship was sinking by the stern and her 347 crew, two of them injured, were taken off by the Icelandic trawler Skallagimur which later transferred the to the destroyer HMS Forester (D 74) and they were taken to Scapa Flow, Scotland, United Kingdom. UA fired two more torpedoes at the sinking Andania, but both missed or were duds. The Andania had been a Cunard White Star Line Passenger Liner before being requisitioned by the Admiralty in Sep 1939. 
At 1302 hours the 13,212-ton unescorted British motor merchant ship Wellington Star was hit in the bow by a G7a torpedo from German submarine U-101 about 300 miles west of Cape Finisterre, Spain. After the crew abandoned ship in four lifeboats, the submarine fired three coups de grâce at her, all three hit, but only one detonated, underneath the bridge. The U-101, commanded by Fritz Frauenheim, surfaced, questioned the survivors then sank the ship with 31 rounds from the deck gun at 1645 hours. 

17 June
German submarine U-46 sank Greek ship Elpis 250 miles west of Cape Finisterre, Spain; the entire crew of 28 survived. 

18 June
German submarine U-28 sank Finnish ship Sarmatia southwest of Ireland. ww2dbase [CPC]

German submarine U-32 sank Spanish trawler Sálvora, Spanish trawler Nuevo Ons, and Norwegian ship Altair southwest of Ireland.

19 June


20 June
At 0336 hours, German submarine U-38, commanded by Kapitänleutnant Heinrich Liebe, missed the 1,776-ton unescorted Swedish and neutral steam merchant Tilia Gorthon with a G7a torpedo and then stopped the vessel by gunfire about 45 miles west of the Isles of Scilly in the southwestern tip of England, United Kingdom. At 0412 hours, the Tilia Gorthon was hit in the engine room by another G7e torpedo after the crew had abandoned ship in two lifeboats and sank. The survivors were picked up by the British sloop HMS Leith (U 36). The Tilia Gorthon had previously been on voyage from Bahia, Brazil to Gothenburg, Sweden but was stopped by a British warship and sent to Liverpool, England, United Kingdom and then to Nantes, France, however, near the Loire a new order sent her to Quiberon Bay, France and finally ordered the ship back to Liverpool. 

At 1533 hours, German submarine U-51 (Kapitänleutnant Dietrich Knorr) attacked the 4,876-ton British merchant steamer Otterpool of convoy HG-34F, carrying 8,180 tons of iron ore; the attack missed the target.

German submarine U-30 (Kapitänleutnant Fritz-Julius Lemp) attacked Allied convoy HG-34F, but all torpedoes missed. At 2142 hours, a second attack by U-30 succeeded, hitting the 4,876-ton British merchant steamer Otterpool with one stern torpedo. Otterpool sank about 130 miles west of the French island of Ushant. The master, 21 crew members and one gunner were lost. 16 crew members were picked up by British sloop HMS Scarborough (L 25) and landed at Liverpool, England, United Kingdom.

At 1315 hours, German submarine U-61 (Oberleutnant zur See Jürgen Oesten) observed how the unescorted and zigzagging 5,911-ton steam merchant Empire Conveyor was hit on the port side forward by a torpedo about 50 miles south of Barra Head, Hebrides, Scotland, United Kingdom. The attacker must have been German submarine U-122 (Korvettenkapitän Hans-Günther Looff), which was lost shortly afterwards but reported sinking a large freighter in a radio message at 0030 hours on 21 Jun 1940. The Empire Conveyor did not sink immediately, but because the aerials had been damaged the radio operator was unable to call for help. Luckily a flying boat on patrol in the area arrived, dropped bombs to keep the submarine submerged and alerted the British Admiralty. The tug HMS Amsterdam was sent out, escorted by the rescue tug HMS Atherstone (L 05) and the destroyer HMS Campbell (D 60), but at 1600 hours she suddenly sank before the ships arrived. The crew had abandoned ship in three lifeboats and several rafts, but one boat swamped during launch. The master, the second engineer and the cook were lost. 38 crew members were picked up by HMS Campbell (D 60) after six hours. 

The 7,638-ton French tanker Brumarire was torpedoed and damaged by a single torpedo from German submarine U-25 (Korvettenkapitän Viktor Schütze) in the Atlantic Ocean at 0128 hours.

21 June
At 0846 hours, HMS Cape Howe (X 02), a Special Service Vessel, disguised as the Prunella, was hit on the starboard side near the bridge by one of two torpedoes fired by German submarine U-28 about 100 miles west of the Isles of Scilly at the southwestern tip of Britain. The explosion blew open the hatches of No. 1 hold, put the Asdic and steering gear out of order and mortally injured two crewmen. The panic party abandoned the now slowly circling ship in two lifeboats but the submarine did not surface but fired a coup de grâce after about an hour that hit on port side amidships, causing her to slowly settle by the bow until sinking with a list to port at 1230 hours. 54 became missing and would be never found; 40 would be rescued.

At 0411 hours the 1,144-ton unescorted Finnish freighter Hilda was hit by one torpedo from German submarine U-52 commanded by Kapitänleutnant Otto Salman and sank in a few minutes in the Bay of Biscay, killing 5. The master and ten crew members survived aboard a lifeboat.

At 2007 hours, German submarine U-47 under command of Kapitänleutnant Günther Prien fired a torpedo at a tanker in the middle of Allied convoy HX-49 in a position 50 miles south-southwest of Cape Clear in the southwestern tip of Ireland. The tanker was the 13,056-ton British San Fernando which was carrying 13,500 tons of crude oil and 4,200 tons of fuel oil, and she was hit and came to a stop. Prien then fired two more torpedoes but did not observe the result as he had to submerge rapidly to avoid being seen by a nearby steamer. The damaged San Fernando was taken under tow by two tugs. 

At 1636 hours the 8,627-ton British merchant steamer Yarraville in Allied convoy 65-X was hit by a single torpedo from German submarine U-43, caught fire and sank southwest of Figueira da Foz, Portugal. Five crew members were lost. The master and 44 crew members (seven of them wounded) were picked up by the French trawler Marie Gilberte and landed at Gibraltar.

At 1753 hours the 5,809-ton unescorted Belgian freighter Luxembourg was hit aft by a G7e torpedo from German submarine U-38 and sank west of Saint-Nazaire, France. The ship had been bound for Antwerp, Belgium but was diverted to Bordeaux, France and anchored at Le Verdon on 20 Jun 1940 when she was ordered to leave for Falmouth, England, United Kingdom. Five men were killed and one wounded of the 46 crew members on board.

At 0817 hours, the 1,177-ton unescorted Dutch steamer Berenice, carrying 1,000 tons of manganese ore and 22 passengers, was hit by one torpedo amidships by German submarine U-65 (Kapitänleutnant Hans-Gerrit von Stockhausen) just off the island of Belle Île, France, causing her to sink within three minutes, killing 21 passengers and some of the crewmembers. A coastal vessel picked up nine survivors, including the master and Marsman's wife, the only surviving passenger. 

22 June
At 1804 hours, German submarine U-65 reported the sinking of an unescorted tanker of 7,000 tons with a spread of two G7e torpedoes about 70 miles southwest of Penmarch in the Bay of Biscay. The ship was immediately covered in burning oil and apparently broke in two before it sank. The ship was the 7,011-ton French tanker Monique. 

German submarine U-122 became missing in the Atlantic Ocean somewhere west of Britain and Ireland; the crew of 49 were never seen again.

The 13,056-ton British tanker San Fernando, damaged by German submarine U-47 on the previous day, sank. The master Arthur Richard Buckley and 48 crew members were picked up by the British sloops HMS Fowey (L 15) and HMS Sandwich (L 12) and landed at Plymouth, England, United Kingdom. 

The 9,026-ton Norwegian motor tanker Eli Knudsen had been in Allied convoy HX-49, which was dispersed approximately 100 miles southwest of Cape Clear, Ireland after German submarine U-47 had torpedoed the San Fernando in the middle of convoy at 2007 hours on 21 Jun 1940. At 0336 hours German submarine U-32 torpedoed the Eli Knudsen, one of the slowest ships in convoy. All crew members abandoned ship in lifeboats and were picked up a few hours later by the sloop HMS Sandwich and taken to Liverpool, England, United Kingdom. The tanker remained afloat, although she would not survive the incident. 

At 0158 hours the 3,999-ton unescorted Norwegian steam merchant ship Randsfjord, dispersed from Allied convoy HX-49, was hit by one G7a torpedo from German submarine U-30 about 80 miles south-southwest of Queenstown, Ireland. The torpedo struck on the port side in the foreship and caused the tanker to sink after three minutes. The master and three crew members were lost. Two men were crushed and injured between the starboard lifeboat and the side of the ship when they lost their grip while lowering themselves down to the boat. Some men jumped overboard and were later picked up by the boat. The submarine surfaced and the Germans questioned the survivors, handed them a bottle of brandy before leaving the area at full speed after two destroyers were spotted.

At 0217 hours the 5,154-ton unescorted and unarmed Greek merchant steamer Neion was hit in the engine room by a G7a torpedo from German submarine U-38 while steaming without navigational lights lit on a non-evasive course at 10 knots in the Bay of Biscay about 40 miles west-southwest of Belle Île off the coast of Bretagne, France. One crew member was lost. The master, eight officers and 22 crew members abandoned ship in one lifeboat before she sank by the stern after five minutes. The cargo of naphtha drums was recovered in 1948. 

24 June
German submarine U-47 sank Panamanian ship Cathrine with the deck gun about 300 miles west of Land's End in southwestern England. As the entire crew of 19 escaped to lifeboats, they were given food and red wine by the crew of U-47 before being set adrift for their eventual rescue. 

25 June
German submarine U-51 attacked Allied convoy OA-172 about 370 miles west of Land's End in southwestern England between 1545 and 1930 hours, sinking British steamer Windsorwood (all 40 survived) and British tanker Saranac (4 killed, 39 survived).

The 3,828-ton Norwegian cargo ship Crux, built in 1923 and owned at the time of her loss by Bergenske Dampskibsselskab A/B, on voyage from Cardiff in Britain to Rio De Janeiro in Brazil, was torpedoed and sunk by German submarine UA in the Atlantic Ocean. 

German submarine U-51 hit 12,049-ton British steam tanker Saranac in Allied convoy OA-172 with one torpedo about 270 miles west-southwest of Lands End at the southwestern tip of Britain at 1551 hours. The ships' crew immediately abandoned the ship. At 1737 hours, the submarine surfaced and failed to sink the tanker by gunfire. At 1915 hours, another torpedo was fired, finally sinking Saranac. Four crew members were lost in this sinking. 31 survivors, including the master Vernon Horace Alcock, were picked up by British destroyer HMS Hurricane (H 06) commanded by Lieutenant Commander H. C. Simms, RN and landed at Plymouth in southern Britain. 9 survivors were picked up by British trawler Caliph and landed at Berehaven, County Cork, Ireland.

26 June
German submarine U-29 stopped Greek ship Dimitris with a shot across her bow off Cape Finisterre, Spain at 1530 hours. After the crew abandoned ship, the Greek ship was sunk by gunfire. 

Norwegian merchant ship Crux was sunk 300 miles west of Cape St. Vincent, Portugal at 0228 hours by a German submarine; the crew of 30 took to lifeboats and would be rescued on the following day. 

27 June
German submarine U-47 shelled Norwegian merchant ship Lenda off southwest Ireland at 0400 hours; 1 was killed and 27 survived. At 1700 hours, U-47 shelled Dutch tanker Leticia in the same area; 25 of the crew took to lifeboats, while the other 3 who dove into the water were rescued by U-47 and brought to the lifeboats; the crew of U-47 offered the survivors first aid material, sausages, and wine before leaving. 

28 June
German submarine U-30 sank British ship Llanarth 250 miles west of Brest, France at 0200 hours.


29 June
German submarine U-51 sank British decoy ship HMS Edgehill with three torpedoes southwest of Ireland. 

German submarine U-47 torpedoed and sank British ship Empire Toucan southwest of Ireland, which broke in half; 3 were killed and 31 were rescued. Destroyer HMS Hurricane scuttled the aft portion of the ship which remained afloat.

German submarine U-26 sank Greek steamer Frangoula B. Goulandris southwest of Ireland; 6 were killed and 32 were rescued.

30 June
German submarine U-65 and U-43 attacked Allied convoy SL-25 300 files west of Brest, France. At 2227 hours, U-43 sank British ship Avelona Star; 1 was killed and 84 were rescued. U-65 damaged British ship Clan Ogilvy, which would need to be towed away; she would remain out of commission until Oct 1940. 

German submarine U-47 sank Greek ship Georgios Kyriakides west of Ireland; all 30 crew members survived.

German submarine U-26 sank Estonian ship Merkur (killing 4) and Norwegian ship Belmoira (all 25 crew members survived) off of France.

[simon darkshade]

From the above data, derived from the excellent ww2db.com/ , a number of possible conclusions can be drawn:

1.) U-47 and U-38 end up in Lyonesse at the time of the ISOT; for storyline purposes, the U-Boats end up atop a hill and in a pond, respectively
2.) U-51 and U-30, given the place of attack 130 west of Ushant, are also landlocked
3.) U-28 and U-32 are right in the teeth of British ASW air and sea forces in Ireland
4.) U-61 and U-122 are also, being in the Hebrides, right in an area of major ASW concentration, being a 1943 ASW training area
5.) U-43 is clear operating off Portugal, as is U-29
6.) U-65 in the northern Bay of Biscay may be in a bit of a pickle
7.) UA is out in the deep North Atlantic, but will be under air cover
8.) U-26 is the other boat that gets a mention in June, appearing to come around the north of the British Isles, striking off the SW of Ireland and then France. Extrapolating this course, they would either be landlocked or end up in the middle of Scapa Flow; I lean towards the latter for humour purposes

That results in 5 U-Boats definitely out of action and 4 ending up right in circumstances where escape is very, very unlikely. That brings losses to 22 U-Boats by ~25 June, including U-47 and Prien.

[stevep]

Apr 7, 2023 4:15:49 GMT simon darkshade said:

From the above data, derived from the excellent ww2db.com/ , a number of possible conclusions can be drawn:

1.) U-47 and U-38 end up in Lyonesse at the time of the ISOT; for storyline purposes, the U-Boats end up atop a hill and in a pond, respectively
2.) U-51 and U-30, given the place of attack 130 west of Ushant, are also landlocked
3.) U-28 and U-32 are right in the teeth of British ASW air and sea forces in Ireland
4.) U-61 and U-122 are also, being in the Hebrides, right in an area of major ASW concentration, being a 1943 ASW training area
5.) U-43 is clear operating off Portugal, as is U-29
6.) U-65 in the northern Bay of Biscay may be in a bit of a pickle
7.) UA is out in the deep North Atlantic, but will be under air cover
8.) U-26 is the other boat that gets a mention in June, appearing to come around the north of the British Isles, striking off the SW of Ireland and then France. Extrapolating this course, they would either be landlocked or end up in the middle of Scapa Flow; I lean towards the latter for humour purposes

That results in 5 U-Boats definitely out of action and 4 ending up right in circumstances where escape is very, very unlikely. That brings losses to 22 U-Boats by ~25 June, including U-47 and Prien.

  There's a possibility that U-26 could cause some problems before she's sunk as being inside the fleet defences the ships there could be taken unprepared.  However that's a useful geographical induced haul even before the much stronger ASW forces come into play.

[simon darkshade]

U-26 could cause trouble in Scapa if they appeared submerged and at night, but appearing on the surface in the middle of the day? Less of an issue.

Available U-Boats, excluding those above:

19 Training: U-2, U-3, U-4, U-5, U-6, U-7, U-8, U-10, U-11, U-14, U-17, U-18, U-19, U-20, U-21, U-23, U-24, U-120, U-121
19 Active: U-9, U-25, U-29, U-34, U-37, U-43, U-46, U-48, U-52, U-56, U-57, U-58, U-59, U-60, U-62, U-99, U-100, U-101, U-102
23 Lost: U-1, U-12, U-13, U-15, U-16, U-22, U-27, U-31, U-33, U-35, U-36, U-39, U-40, U-41, U-42, U-44, U-45, U-49, U-50, U-53, U-54, U-55, U-63

KM Destroyers:


Lost: Z1 Leberecht Maas, Z2 Georg Thiele, Z3 Max Schultz, Z9 Wolfgang Zenker, Z11 Bernd von Arnim, Z12 Erich Giese, Z13 Erich Koellner, Z17 Diether von Roeder, Z18 Hans Lüdemann, Z19 Hermann Künne, Z21 Wilhelm Heidkamp, Z22 Anton Schmitt
Under Repair or Refit: Z4 Richard Beltzen, Z5 Paul Jacobi,  Z6 Theodor Riedel,  Z7 Hermann Schoemann, Z8 Bruno Heinemann,  Z10 Hans Lody, Z14 Friedrich Ihn, Z15 Erich Steinbrinck, Z16 Friedrich Eckoldt
Active: -
Sunk in Trondheim are the Type 23 torpedo boats Jaguar, Kondor, Greif and Falke

[lordroel]

Apr 7, 2023 11:02:52 GMT simon darkshade said:

U-26 could cause trouble in Scapa if they appeared submerged and at night, but appearing on the surface in the middle of the day? Less of an issue.

I assume DE Royal Navy has better harbor defense than OTL Royal Navy, maybe some sea creatures from myths and legends patrolling the harbor..

[simon darkshade]

Are you basing the idea of ‘better’ around the Royal Oak situation? As that had been significantly ameliorated shortly afterwards. There is an Osprey book on the defences of Scapa Flow that covers the issue in great depth and I recommend it.

In any event, in the face of existing air defences and the absence of a sea threat, there isn’t really a need for sea serpents.

[lordroel]

Apr 7, 2023 17:32:12 GMT simon darkshade said:

Are you basing the idea of ‘better’ around the Royal Oak situation? As that had been significantly ameliorated shortly afterwards. There is an Osprey book on the defences of Scapa Flow that covers the issue in great depth and I recommend it.

In any event, in the face of existing air defences and the absence of a sea threat, there isn’t really a need for sea serpents.

No DE Royal Sea Serpent corps, a that would be cool.

[simon darkshade]

Given that they aren’t intelligent, per se, nor definitively capable of ‘anti-ship’ action in the modern era of steel ships, the notion would seem quite pointless. There are kraken, but they are wild and dangerous.

[lordroel]

Apr 8, 2023 1:10:44 GMT simon darkshade said:

Given that they aren’t intelligent, per se, nor definitively capable of ‘anti-ship’ action in the modern era of steel ships, the notion would seem quite pointless. There are kraken, but they are wild and dangerous.

A, was thinking some could be trained like dolphins as what the United States and Russia do.

[simon darkshade]

Dolphins are highly intelligent in @ and DE. Sea serpents, by virtue of their reptilian brain and lack of any further evolution (different to dragons), are not.










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