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Post by simon darkshade on Apr 4, 2023 10:43:18 GMT
The substantive issues to emerge are logistical, whereby those are the chief constraints on Britain’s scope for action.
- It has the superiority in numbers and technology to defeat its two current opponents and Japan
- The limits on what they can do come in the form of shipping, oil, food, raw materials and other assorted base products
- Unlike @, British war production was never quite ‘curved’ into an overall Allied one, such as in the US domination of production of LSTs/landing craft, transport planes, heavy artillery and certain other categories. This comes from the greater scope/slack available in a larger economy, but still has its limits
- Aircraft production, being a function of machine tools, engines, aluminium, copper and wood, so there won’t be any immediate issues there
- Should the war in Europe drag on beyond, say, 12 months, then there would be an issue
- All of the US aircraft, tanks, vehicles, guns and small arms bought and supplied by LL won’t be needed. The debt situation, as explored in another thread, is really hit for six, as comparatively little is owed to the June 1940 USA + the aid bought/supplied 1939-1943 on DE and associated debt is gone + this is already occurring on a much better economic basis
- If Japan goes to war, it will be running into an impossible situation and won’t be able to fight more than 6 months at most
I don’t want to get dragged into the postwar rabbit hole, as it would detract from actual DE material
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 4, 2023 14:40:40 GMT
1.) The Dover Guns are four 32” long range guns, along with eight spare 24”/50s and a lot of smaller pieces. Range for the former is 75 miles and 50 miles for the latter. 2.) At this point, Hitler is in his forward HQ in Belgium: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsschlucht_I3.) The number of bombs falling on Berlin will be 20,000t, so a tad more than Herr Meier anticipated. 4.) Rommel is seized by a force including special forces, wizards and scaly creatures with flappy wings. 5.) Funding is largely covered by the British economy; oil and food are reasons that militate in favour of dispersal. 6.) Approximately 800 land based reserve FAA and RNAS air units remain in Malaya and Singapore, to b joined by all the Tomahawks as an interim measure. The KB does not exist at this point, with Japan having 4 frontline carriers in service. 7.) The GF, it’s stores and supply ships were relocated off Singapore and after 2 days, they are in the Bay of Bengal. There are large stores of fuel, munitions and spares in Britain in addition to these; returning out East will be a big task in and of itself. I checked on Suez and it can take the RN battleships at this point, just. 8.) Oil is to come from the Middle East, Venezuela and British stores in addition to US purchases; there will eventually be some ‘adjustment actions’ in the ME to secure access and put in place friendly governments… On the last point the oil producing areas in the ME were pretty much all under either direct UK control or friendly governments already. There was political unrest in quite a number of states and OTL the exposed position of Britain made this more significant with the most dramatic point probably being the short lived anti-British coup in Iraq. TTL with Britain quickly demonstrating its still very powerful a lot of that unrest is likely to be suppressed locally and any coup bids made even more unlikely and short-lived. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Apr 5, 2023 1:15:54 GMT
The adjustments in the ME will take place in Iraq (removing the rebel tendency groups), Persia (putting in place a more pro British Shah) and Saudi Arabia (removing the ruling family, the first name of the country and the current arrangement with California-Arabian Standard Oil Co.).
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Post by simon darkshade on Apr 5, 2023 12:45:46 GMT
June 16 1940
Cap Griz Nez, Pas de Calais
Leutnant Unglücklichesziel stood back with no small sense of satisfaction. His men had finished digging in their 10.5cm howitzer and machine guns; only a shadow of what be coming if the English chose to foolishly fight on now that the French were as good as beaten. The ruins of the old Blackness fort added to the strength of the position, a strength that was not needed when they had the might of the victorious German Army!
There was a rumble of sound from out across the Channel, distant yet very loud, followed by a ripping sound, strangely like a train.
Artillery fire
“Take cover!”
The sound of the shells screaming overhead was overwhelming, but was as nothing compared to the impact. He could only huddle as low as possible in his slit trench and pray for it to be over. When the titanic barrage finally came to an end, the Leutnant crept up to see what had been hit. The village of Audinghen behind them was intact, but the main encampment beyond and the gun positions being dug there were a scene of complete ruin. He raised up his powerful German binoculars and gazed through them.
Gruss Gott! Those craters must be ten metres across!”
…………………
Trondheimfjord
Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Admiral Hipper sat at anchor, the repair ship Huaskaran lying alongside the former Schlachtschiff. The mid morning was peaceful as it could be in the Norwegian fjord. The quietude of the sunshine was broken by the harsh discordant claxon of an air raid siren.
“FLIEGER ALARM!!”
“What do we know?” asked Kapitän Hoffman.
“There was a garbled signal from Nürnberg that it was under attack by giant torpedoes and dozens of English aircraft forty minutes ago, Herr Kapitan, and now the observation post on Frøya reports hundreds of planes coming over at very high speed and low level.”
Within 15 minutes, the first wave of Royal Navy Hawker Sea Fury fighter-bombers, Fairey Spearfish torpedo bombers, Blackburn Firedrake dive bombers and de Havilland Sea Mosquito strike bombers roared into the fjord, their escorting Supermarine Eagles coursing above them and engaging the Bf-109s out of Værnes. Two dozen of the Sea Furies peeled off and dove in on the flak batteries on the shore, unleashing with their rockets and cannon before dropping their canisters of napalm over their targets, enveloping them in blooming maelstroms of flame. The others focused on the battleships and cruiser, blasting their anti-aircraft defences whilst the attack planes began their run.
A squadron each of Spearfish and Firedrakes had been assigned to each of the three large German ships and although they had all taken losses on their rough and fast flight in from the Home Fleet’s carriers, they now bought their payloads to bear. Half of the Spearfish dropped their two 24.5” torpedoes whilst the others fired their Hellhound rockets and glide bombs. The Firedrakes came hurtling down from on high, sending their 2500lb armour piercing bombs right into the vitals of the German ships. The Sea Mosquitoes added their own bombs and incendiary rockets to the attack, overwhelming the enemy anti-aircraft fire and joining in the destruction.
The ends of Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Admiral Hipper and their accompanying destroyers came swiftly and with the cold precision of an execution.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 5, 2023 18:07:03 GMT
June 16 1940 Cap Griz Nez, Pas de Calais Leutnant Unglücklichesziel stood back with no small sense of satisfaction. His men had finished digging in their 10.5cm howitzer and machine guns; only a shadow of what be coming if the English chose to foolishly fight on now that the French were as good as beaten. The ruins of the old Blackness fort added to the strength of the position, a strength that was not needed when they had the might of the victorious German Army! There was a rumble of sound from out across the Channel, distant yet very loud, followed by a ripping sound, strangely like a train. Artillery fire“Take cover!” The sound of the shells screaming overhead was overwhelming, but was as nothing compared to the impact. He could only huddle as low as possible in his slit trench and pray for it to be over. When the titanic barrage finally came to an end, the Leutnant crept up to see what had been hit. The village of Audinghen behind them was intact, but the main encampment beyond and the gun positions being dug there were a scene of complete ruin. He raised up his powerful German binoculars and gazed through them. Gruss Gott! Those craters must be ten metres across!”………………… Leutnant Unglücklichesziel last name makes sense if you translate it into English wich would be lieutenant unfortunate target. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 5, 2023 20:55:59 GMT
The adjustments in the ME will take place in Iraq (removing the rebel tendency groups), Persia (putting in place a more pro British Shah) and Saudi Arabia (removing the ruling family, the first name of the country and the current arrangement with California-Arabian Standard Oil Co.).
Well the last is going to cause some problems with both a lot of the Muslim world and the US. I didn't think there had been any substantial discoveries in Saudi until after WWII but possibly the DE UK knows more than OTL Britain did.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 5, 2023 21:00:01 GMT
June 16 1940 Cap Griz Nez, Pas de Calais Leutnant Unglücklichesziel stood back with no small sense of satisfaction. His men had finished digging in their 10.5cm howitzer and machine guns; only a shadow of what be coming if the English chose to foolishly fight on now that the French were as good as beaten. The ruins of the old Blackness fort added to the strength of the position, a strength that was not needed when they had the might of the victorious German Army! There was a rumble of sound from out across the Channel, distant yet very loud, followed by a ripping sound, strangely like a train. Artillery fire“Take cover!” The sound of the shells screaming overhead was overwhelming, but was as nothing compared to the impact. He could only huddle as low as possible in his slit trench and pray for it to be over. When the titanic barrage finally came to an end, the Leutnant crept up to see what had been hit. The village of Audinghen behind them was intact, but the main encampment beyond and the gun positions being dug there were a scene of complete ruin. He raised up his powerful German binoculars and gazed through them. Gruss Gott! Those craters must be ten metres across!”………………… Trondheimfjord Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Admiral Hipper sat at anchor, the repair ship Huaskaran lying alongside the former Schlachtschiff. The mid morning was peaceful as it could be in the Norwegian fjord. The quietude of the sunshine was broken by the harsh discordant claxon of an air raid siren. “FLIEGER ALARM!!” “What do we know?” asked Kapitän Hoffman. “There was a garbled signal from Nürnberg that it was under attack by giant torpedoes and dozens of English aircraft forty minutes ago, Herr Kapitan, and now the observation post on Frøya reports hundreds of planes coming over at very high speed and low level.” Within 15 minutes, the first wave of Royal Navy Hawker Sea Fury fighter-bombers, Fairey Spearfish torpedo bombers, Blackburn Firedrake dive bombers and de Havilland Sea Mosquito strike bombers roared into the fjord, their escorting Supermarine Eagles coursing above them and engaging the Bf-109s out of Værnes. Two dozen of the Sea Furies peeled off and dove in on the flak batteries on the shore, unleashing with their rockets and cannon before dropping their canisters of napalm over their targets, enveloping them in blooming maelstroms of flame. The others focused on the battleships and cruiser, blasting their anti-aircraft defences whilst the attack planes began their run. A squadron each of Spearfish and Firedrakes had been assigned to each of the three large German ships and although they had all taken losses on their rough and fast flight in from the Home Fleet’s carriers, they now bought their payloads to bear. Half of the Spearfish dropped their two 24.5” torpedoes whilst the others fired their Hellhound rockets and glide bombs. The Firedrakes came hurtling down from on high, sending their 2500lb armour piercing bombs right into the vitals of the German ships. The Sea Mosquitoes added their own bombs and incendiary rockets to the attack, overwhelming the enemy anti-aircraft fire and joining in the destruction. The ends of Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Admiral Hipper and their accompanying destroyers came swiftly and with the cold precision of an execution.
Well the former was lucky to minimise civilian casualties unless the DE UK was able to extend magical guidance into the region. Long ranged artillery, especially of that size is not very accurate on that sort of range.
The destruction of the bulk of their remaining surface ships will be a shock to the KM and also an eye opener as to the strength of the opponent they now face.
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Post by simon darkshade on Apr 6, 2023 1:55:13 GMT
The adjustments in the ME will take place in Iraq (removing the rebel tendency groups), Persia (putting in place a more pro British Shah) and Saudi Arabia (removing the ruling family, the first name of the country and the current arrangement with California-Arabian Standard Oil Co.).
Well the last is going to cause some problems with both a lot of the Muslim world and the US. I didn't think there had been any substantial discoveries in Saudi until after WWII but possibly the DE UK knows more than OTL Britain did.
A lot of the Muslim world? The Sauds didn't really have much influence or many friends at this point, with their modern kingdom only being officially founded in 1932. Oil was found in 1938, but this occurred a bit earlier in DE, which informs the policy decision to replace an unfriendly/neutral regime with one more fitting and malleable to British interests. The impact beyond the borders of Arabia will be quite muted at this point. As for the US reaction, that is where there might be some friction. The USA of Earth is not used to *not* getting things its own way and hasn't been unequivocally told 'no' for quite some time; coups overthrowing governments, occupations to protect commercial interests and setting out spheres of exclusive interest are something that it can do, but is very much less tolerable when other countries do it. What we have here is two states - two empires really - that have the same views of what can be done to protect themselves, the same level of confidence in their right, destiny and position and the same righteous justifications for their actions. Coming up against a comparable entity will be more of a shock for the downtime USA, as it hasn't had any sense of an actual or figurative 'rival' for some time, whereas DE Britain is used to a bigger and more powerful USA (albeit not one so far ahead as to cow them). The essence of drama is conflict and this background conflict provides a little bit extra to what would otherwise be a 'hit Nazis' story. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Apr 6, 2023 2:02:36 GMT
June 16 1940 Cap Griz Nez, Pas de Calais Leutnant Unglücklichesziel stood back with no small sense of satisfaction. His men had finished digging in their 10.5cm howitzer and machine guns; only a shadow of what be coming if the English chose to foolishly fight on now that the French were as good as beaten. The ruins of the old Blackness fort added to the strength of the position, a strength that was not needed when they had the might of the victorious German Army! There was a rumble of sound from out across the Channel, distant yet very loud, followed by a ripping sound, strangely like a train. Artillery fire“Take cover!” The sound of the shells screaming overhead was overwhelming, but was as nothing compared to the impact. He could only huddle as low as possible in his slit trench and pray for it to be over. When the titanic barrage finally came to an end, the Leutnant crept up to see what had been hit. The village of Audinghen behind them was intact, but the main encampment beyond and the gun positions being dug there were a scene of complete ruin. He raised up his powerful German binoculars and gazed through them. Gruss Gott! Those craters must be ten metres across!”………………… Trondheimfjord Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Admiral Hipper sat at anchor, the repair ship Huaskaran lying alongside the former Schlachtschiff. The mid morning was peaceful as it could be in the Norwegian fjord. The quietude of the sunshine was broken by the harsh discordant claxon of an air raid siren. “FLIEGER ALARM!!” “What do we know?” asked Kapitän Hoffman. “There was a garbled signal from Nürnberg that it was under attack by giant torpedoes and dozens of English aircraft forty minutes ago, Herr Kapitan, and now the observation post on Frøya reports hundreds of planes coming over at very high speed and low level.” Within 15 minutes, the first wave of Royal Navy Hawker Sea Fury fighter-bombers, Fairey Spearfish torpedo bombers, Blackburn Firedrake dive bombers and de Havilland Sea Mosquito strike bombers roared into the fjord, their escorting Supermarine Eagles coursing above them and engaging the Bf-109s out of Værnes. Two dozen of the Sea Furies peeled off and dove in on the flak batteries on the shore, unleashing with their rockets and cannon before dropping their canisters of napalm over their targets, enveloping them in blooming maelstroms of flame. The others focused on the battleships and cruiser, blasting their anti-aircraft defences whilst the attack planes began their run. A squadron each of Spearfish and Firedrakes had been assigned to each of the three large German ships and although they had all taken losses on their rough and fast flight in from the Home Fleet’s carriers, they now bought their payloads to bear. Half of the Spearfish dropped their two 24.5” torpedoes whilst the others fired their Hellhound rockets and glide bombs. The Firedrakes came hurtling down from on high, sending their 2500lb armour piercing bombs right into the vitals of the German ships. The Sea Mosquitoes added their own bombs and incendiary rockets to the attack, overwhelming the enemy anti-aircraft fire and joining in the destruction. The ends of Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Admiral Hipper and their accompanying destroyers came swiftly and with the cold precision of an execution.
Well the former was lucky to minimise civilian casualties unless the DE UK was able to extend magical guidance into the region. Long ranged artillery, especially of that size is not very accurate on that sort of range.
The destruction of the bulk of their remaining surface ships will be a shock to the KM and also an eye opener as to the strength of the opponent they now face.
1.) The first is simply good shooting plus a bit of authorial fiat that the civilian population have been forced out for the time being. 2.) The shock will take some time to percolate through the force/system, as the rapid succession of blows is designed to be stunning, at least in the initial sense. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 6, 2023 3:08:44 GMT
June 16 1940 “There was a garbled signal from Nürnberg that it was under attack by giant torpedoes and dozens of English aircraft forty minutes ago, Herr Kapitan, and now the observation post on Frøya reports hundreds of planes coming over at very high speed and low level.” What would we categories as a giant torpedoe. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Apr 6, 2023 3:17:37 GMT
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 6, 2023 3:21:16 GMT
So also dropped from a DE version of the Lancaster, can this be compared to a Talboy.  |
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Post by simon darkshade on Apr 6, 2023 3:55:43 GMT
Air dropped from a Lancaster and surface launched. I bought the Rolls Royce Armaments book a decade or more ago, but it is in storage with the rest of my library. From my recollection, it was quite detailed.
Helmover can't be compared to a Tallboy save in very general dimensions. One is a torpedo and one is an aerial bomb.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 6, 2023 12:26:11 GMT
Well the last is going to cause some problems with both a lot of the Muslim world and the US. I didn't think there had been any substantial discoveries in Saudi until after WWII but possibly the DE UK knows more than OTL Britain did.
A lot of the Muslim world? The Sauds didn't really have much influence or many friends at this point, with their modern kingdom only being officially founded in 1932. Oil was found in 1938, but this occurred a bit earlier in DE, which informs the policy decision to replace an unfriendly/neutral regime with one more fitting and malleable to British interests. The impact beyond the borders of Arabia will be quite muted at this point. As for the US reaction, that is where there might be some friction. The USA of Earth is not used to *not* getting things its own way and hasn't been unequivocally told 'no' for quite some time; coups overthrowing governments, occupations to protect commercial interests and setting out spheres of exclusive interest are something that it can do, but is very much less tolerable when other countries do it. What we have here is two states - two empires really - that have the same views of what can be done to protect themselves, the same level of confidence in their right, destiny and position and the same righteous justifications for their actions. Coming up against a comparable entity will be more of a shock for the downtime USA, as it hasn't had any sense of an actual or figurative 'rival' for some time, whereas DE Britain is used to a bigger and more powerful USA (albeit not one so far ahead as to cow them). The essence of drama is conflict and this background conflict provides a little bit extra to what would otherwise be a 'hit Nazis' story.
Its going to mean the overthrow of the government that rules the two prime Muslim holy cities and is known for being deeply reactionary in terms of religion. That's going to be seen by many Muslims as a move against their faith. There is already unrest about British domination of much of the Muslim world and a more heavy handed approach of the sort that DE UK is used to with subjects and protectorates is likely to see a nasty reaction. Doubly so if there's open support for a Jewish states in Palestine.
Very likely the US reaction. Their not going to be happy that the UK is no longer a state they can bleed of resources but a powerful rival that is likely to stand up to them and assert its own perceived interests. The big issue here might be what the stance of the Dominions and especially Canada would be as that would be the most exposed to a serious deterioration of Anglo-American relations.
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Post by simon darkshade on Apr 6, 2023 12:50:21 GMT
On the first matter, it is simply changing the management of the stewardship of the two Arabian holy cities back to the Hashemites. The Sauds simply didn't have the broader influence that they would later develop, nor is there a level of immediate awareness on the literal Arab street that would lead to any immediate reaction. What comes to pass won't be unsubtle, by any stretch of the imagination. There wasn't anything gained by trying to appease Arab popular opinion in @ in the short, medium or long term.
The first population data that can easily be found from the Middle East is from 1950
Egypt: 21,198,000
Persia: 16,357,000
Iraq: 5,153,000
Saudi Arabia: 3,860,000
Syria: 3,495,000
Lebanon: 1,364,000
Jordan: 561,000
Kuwait: 145,000
The US reaction will be shock, to begin with. Insofar as Canada is concerned, there is going to be a great deal of influence asserted over them to ensure they are 'back in the family fold', as it were. Is there a basis for a serious deterioration of Anglo-American relations? Not really. Not every American is a slavering Anglophobe and, apart from general rivalry, there is much that brings them together; the loss of Ireland as a trigger for trouble will take a fair bit of wind out of some people's sails. In both Washington and London, there are bigger immediate fish to fry, but after that, the paradigm will be firmly altered. As observed in my fourth post in this thread, 'DE Britain has a GDP of $1.214 trillion and a population of 116 million, compared to the U.S. in @ 1940 of 132,122,446 and $929.737 billion. This will cause some degree of momentary upset to the apple cart.'
US Army June 1940:
1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, Hawaiian, Philippine Infantry Divisions (7th, 8th July, 9th August)
1st Cavalry Division
(1st, 2nd Armored Divisions July)
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