Fall and Rise: A WW2 ISOT

[simon darkshade]

British Military/Arms Production August 1943:

72,000 SMLE battle rifles
64,000 Sten submachine guns
29,568 Bren light machine guns
20,147 Enfield automatic rifles
19,423 Vickers general purpose machine guns
5988 PIAT recoilless rifles
3259 Armstrong-Whitworth rocket launchers
2354 Vickers heavy machine guns
811 Maxim Guns

1427 2” mortars
852 3” mortars
362 4.5” mortars

448 25pdr field gun-howitzers
97 6” howitzers
29 6” guns
44 8” howitzers
18 9.2” howitzers

556 17pdr AT guns
254 25pdr AT guns

293 3.75” AA guns
79 5.25” AA guns
2967 25mm AA guns
1629 40mm AA guns

1238 Armoured Carriers
482 Crusader medium tanks
204 Churchill heavy tanks
25 Cromwell superheavy tanks
52 Black Prince tank destroyers
50 Iron Duke assault guns
66 25pdr SPG
24 6” SPG
16 8” SPG
9 9.2” SPG
133 Catapult MRL
30 Sabre SPAAG
64 Archer SPAAG
107 Comet SPAAG

[simon darkshade]

In the next part:
- The Dover Guns open fire
- Scharnhorst and Gneisenau meet the Fleet Air Arm
- The capture of Rommel and the fates of 5th and 7th Panzer at the hands of RAF tacair
- Ambassador Kennedy and Churchill have a friendly, good natured meeting
- Bomber Command visits Berlin; and aftermath reactions from Germany, Britain, France and more

Once the various powers can confirm that the British just hit Berlin with 2500 bombers, then the process starts of “Oh dear. Is it possible they might be telling the truth about their navy?” and similar thoughts, just at the same time as other reports start to come into Germany.

It is worth noting that the DE Edward Murrow is in London as of 1943, as in @, which opens up an option for a broadcast piece.

[stevep]

Mar 30, 2023 15:14:09 GMT simon darkshade said:

Part 3

“Circumspection. Simple as that, my dear Winston.”

“Pray expand, Richard. Expand as to why, when God gives us an opportunity, we should not seize it?”

Harcourt gave a tiny internal sigh at Churchill’s mercurial nature. This was not the first time that he or Brooke had sought to curb the Prime Minister’s instincts, with varying degrees of success.

“It has been around 36 hours since our arrival, if I can put it that way. We have at best partial intelligence on not only the Germans but the world at large that we find ourselves in. Now that our relative position with regard to air and land forces is established, do we necessarily lose anything by not committing ourselves to immediate general offensive action?”

“I would tend to concur, Prime Minister. Whilst we can launch an offensive into France, the longer we take to prepare it, the more our likelihood of total success. Our window for a cross-Channel invasion, if it comes to it, extends to mid September, just as the German one did back in 1940…well, our 1940. Even then, we would be dealing with a number of unknown variables, ranging from the weather to the French. We’ve spent a year and a half planning and preparing Overlord and we still had another 9 months yet to go.” said Brooke.

“We are not going to leave Europe to the mercy of Nazi tyranny for that long. We are delivered here to provide for a much swifter end to this war and their bloody murder.”

“That isn’t what I’d suggest at all, Winston. I’m all for action this day as much as you, but it depends on what action. If we shift our immediate steps to the periphery, as it were, then we keep the vast part of our strengths and options open. Every week that goes by makes us stronger, after all. We went through the production plans back in August; this month, we will add 480 tanks, all of them the new Super Crusader, at least 1200 carriers and 1000 guns, not to mention 7 new destroyers, 500 Spitfires, 250 rockets and 6 LSTs.”

“The last are what we really need, Prime Minister - not just LSTs, but all manner of landing craft as well. We’ve got what we had here at home, but we are now without not just the production from the United States, but also Canada. Whilst I cannot say it conclusively until we have more intelligence on the numbers and equipment of this Germany, I am fairly sure that we can outproduce them in every major category of military equipment for the rest of the year, cementing our advantage.”

“If not France, then where?”

“Two places: Norway and Egypt. In Norway, we can maul their fleet, as we discussed earlier, whilst having a relatively nearby combat theatre in which to gauge Jerry’s capabilities. In Egypt, we can wrap up Italian North Africa before the end of autumn.” Harcourt stabbed at the map with his pencil to emphasise each point.

“Very well. Unless Ironside’s mission to the French encounters some dramatic success on the morrow, we can work towards that basis. Whatever their decision, we will start hitting the Germans from the air, including letting Harris loose on Berlin. That will be a quite decisive factor that will show that, far from being stricken by the looming collapse of our ally, we are prepared to fight and win. To that end, have the Dover Guns begin firing across the Channel and have the BBC include a piece on the Grand Fleet heading back to us.”

Harcourt smiled. “I quite agree, Prime Minister. It is about sending a message.”

“Speaking of which, I have a cable to dictate to President Roosevelt before bed. That will be a rather interesting endeavour.”

………………….

“This is London calling in the overseas service of the British Broadcasting Corporation. Here is the news. The main force of the Grand Fleet under Admiral Cunningham has been ordered home from the Far East, with 27 battleships, 60 aircraft carriers, 72 cruisers and 214 destroyers and escorts already underway; Admiral Mountbatten is to remain at Singapore with ten older 18” capital ships. The Prime Minister, Mr Churchill, has called upon Italy and Germany to surrender whilst they still can and that it was only a matter of time until all of conquered Europe would be liberated. Morning has come.”

…………..
Washington D.C.

President Franklin Roosevelt took a drag from his cigarette holder and then exhaled, just a tad more forcefully than usual.

“Do you have any idea what the British are playing at, Admiral?”

“Mr. President, short of them going completely mad, the only possible explanation is propaganda, but this frankly does seem to be of the most transparent kind possible. I can’t see who they are trying to fool, lying like this.”

“Perhaps it is something to do with the confusion of the last day or so and the French being on the brink of surrender.”

“Yes, Mr. President. Whatever it is, it will soon become clear.”

…………………

Admiral Yamamoto sat and thought. Surely, this could not be true in any way.

The alternative did not even bear thinking about.

  The great requirement for British government during WWII - "Quick someone sit on Winston before he does something drastic [aka stupid!]

  The broadcast, as discussed with Lordroel will be totally disbelieved by everybody, at least until they actually see evidence of those forces.  Which for some people will be way too late.

  Two points that come to mind.

a)  What has actually come back outside the UK?  I thought that the overseas army, navy and air force had been transported back to the UK, replacing the US forces that have disappeared?  However we're talking about the massive GF which seems to have been based at Singapore?  [Should have asked this before].  If their still in the Far East - and elsewhere - how much of the support facilities and supplies would be there with them?  Bringing that fleet back from Singers to the Med and then having them operating from there will require a hell of a lot of fuel, spares, munitions etc and unless facilities and reserves have been brought across from DE across the empire this is all going to have to come from DE UK.  Also assuming little/nothing from DE has come across outside the UK itself where - other than the US is all the fuel going to come to operate the air and naval forces?

b)  Given how large a lot of the DE warships are would OTL Suez actually be capable of passing them, both in terms of width and depth.

[stevep]

Mar 30, 2023 16:07:19 GMT simon darkshade said:

By a lot, read ~2500 aircraft available to the Grand Fleet.

At Singapore, there are Warspite , Valiant , Queen Elizabeth, Barham, Queen Victoria, Royal Oak, Revenge, Ramillies, Reprisal and Resolution.

The QEs are ~50,000t with 8 x 18” and 24 x 5.25”, 15” belts and speeds of 28 knots, whilst the Rs are slightly larger but with the same armament and speed.

The IJN has
Fuso: 29,326t, 12 x 14”, 16 x 6”, 12” belt and 23 knots
Yamashiro: 29,326t, 12 x 14”, 16 x 6”, 12” belt and 23 knots
Hyuga: 31,260t, 12 x 14”, 20 x 5.5”, 11.8” belt and 23 knots
Ise: 31,260t, 12 x 14”, 20 x 5.5”, 11.8” belt and 23 knots
Nagato: 32,720t, 8 x 16”, 20 x 5.5”, 12” belt and 26.5 knots
Mutsu: 32,720t, 8 x 16”, 20 x 5.5”, 12” belt and 26.5 knots

Kongo: 32,156t, 8 x 14”, 8 x 6”, 12 x 5”, 8” belt and 30.5 knots
Kirishima: 32,156t, 8 x 14”, 8 x 6”, 12 x 5”, 8” belt and 30.5 knots
Haruna: 32,156t, 8 x 14”, 8 x 6”, 12 x 5”, 8” belt and 30.5 knots
Hiei: 32,156t, 8 x 14”, 8 x 6”, 12 x 5”, 8” belt and 30.5 knots

  The question might be what CV are left behind, or any land based air support.  The KB could still cause a problem if given a chance although the sheer size of those giants are likely to limit the damage they can inflict on the total forces.

[stevep]

Mar 31, 2023 12:38:49 GMT lordroel said:

Mar 31, 2023 12:36:30 GMT simon darkshade said:

Those are all the @ US aircraft that won't be needed and will in all likelihood be cancelled, along with any orders for tanks, small arms and artillery, the very thought of the Destroyers for Bases deal and even the June/July delivery of surplus rifles and 75mm guns.

If DE Britain does not need OTL United States as much and if OTL Japan has doubts to go to war with the United States and thus DE British empire, i can assume OTL United States will remain isolationist.

  There may be questions of funding such a huge force, especially since their lost access to DE overseas assets.  Also the other issues might be oil and food.

[stevep]

Apr 3, 2023 15:24:04 GMT simon darkshade said:

In the next part:
- The Dover Guns open fire
- Scharnhorst and Gneisenau meet the Fleet Air Arm
- The capture of Rommel and the fates of 5th and 7th Panzer at the hands of RAF tacair
- Ambassador Kennedy and Churchill have a friendly, good natured meeting
- Bomber Command visits Berlin; and aftermath reactions from Germany, Britain, France and more

Once the various powers can confirm that the British just hit Berlin with 2500 bombers, then the process starts of “Oh dear. Is it possible they might be telling the truth about their navy?” and similar thoughts, just at the same time as other reports start to come into Germany.

It is worth noting that the DE Edward Murrow is in London as of 1943, as in @, which opens up an option for a broadcast piece.

  The LOL is due to the highlighted bit.

  To capture Rommel would require some ground units - or possibly magic which would really confuse everybody but I think the fate of the twins and a lot of the German forces in N France is going to be short and brutal.

[lordroel]

Apr 3, 2023 15:24:04 GMT simon darkshade said:

Once the various powers can confirm that the British just hit Berlin with 2500 bombers, then the process starts of “Oh dear. Is it possible they might be telling the truth about their navy?” and similar thoughts, just at the same time as other reports start to come into Germany.

So will Goering if he survives Hitler wrath if this 2,500 bomber raid happens as some say he quoted now be called Meyer:

“If one enemy bomb falls on Berlin, you can call me Meyer.”

[stevep]

Apr 3, 2023 17:57:51 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 3, 2023 15:24:04 GMT simon darkshade said:

Once the various powers can confirm that the British just hit Berlin with 2500 bombers, then the process starts of “Oh dear. Is it possible they might be telling the truth about their navy?” and similar thoughts, just at the same time as other reports start to come into Germany.

So will Goering if he survives Hitler wrath if this 2,500 bomber raid happens as some say he quoted now be called Meyer:

“If one enemy bomb falls on Berlin, you can call me Meyer.”

  Well I suppose he could argue it wasn't one bomb but about 10,000.   Assuming that he isn't a casualties of the attacks, either on Berlin or just possibly if he's touring northern France then he's likely to suffer at best a serious demotion soon.  At worst for him a tradition fatal heavy metal poisoning.

[lordroel]

Apr 3, 2023 15:24:04 GMT simon darkshade said:

In the next part:
- The Dover Guns open fire

With what size of shells and range.

[stevep]

Apr 3, 2023 18:22:07 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 3, 2023 15:24:04 GMT simon darkshade said:

In the next part:
- The Dover Guns open fire

With what size of shells and range.

  Well this is DE so large and long come to mind.  I suspect they can hit parts of Germany - although accuracy might be an issue.  Especially since if the channel at Dover is OTL width their a bit nearer than on DE.

  Must admit I missed that bit. 

[simon darkshade]

1.) The Dover Guns are four 32” long range guns, along with eight spare 24”/50s and a lot of smaller pieces. Range for the former is 75 miles and 50 miles for the latter.
2.) At this point, Hitler is in his forward HQ in Belgium: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsschlucht_I
3.) The number of bombs falling on Berlin will be 20,000t, so a tad more than Herr Meier anticipated.
4.) Rommel is seized by a force including special forces, wizards and scaly creatures with flappy wings.
5.) Funding is largely covered by the British economy; oil and food are reasons that militate in favour of dispersal.
6.) Approximately 800 land based reserve FAA and RNAS air units remain in Malaya and Singapore, to b joined by all the Tomahawks as an interim measure. The KB does not exist at this point, with Japan having 4 frontline carriers in service.
7.) The GF, it’s stores and supply ships were relocated off Singapore and after 2 days, they are in the Bay of Bengal. There are large stores of fuel, munitions and spares in Britain in addition to these; returning out East will be a big task in and of itself. I checked on Suez and it can take the RN battleships at this point, just.
8.) Oil is to come from the Middle East, Venezuela and British stores in addition to US purchases; there will eventually be some ‘adjustment actions’ in the ME to secure access and put in place friendly governments…

[lordroel]

Apr 3, 2023 23:53:18 GMT simon darkshade said:

1.)
2.) At this point, Hitler is in his forward HQ in Belgium: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsschlucht_I

I assume the Talboys in the DE Britain are in use and much bigger than OTL.

[simon darkshade]

There are 12,000lb and 24,000lb earthquake bombs under testing, but they had not seen use as of August 1943. One could make an argument that there aren’t any targets that require them in 1940 Germany.

[lordroel]

Apr 4, 2023 3:53:57 GMT simon darkshade said:

There are 12,000lb and 24,000lb earthquake bombs under testing, but they had not seen use as of August 1943. One could make an argument that there aren’t any targets that require them in 1940 Germany.

Not even for Austrian Corperal.

[simon darkshade]

Hitler didn't have any heavily protected bunkers as of 1940, setting aside whether or not there is any advantage in offing him.