miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on May 22, 2023 19:18:43 GMT
France... Once upon a when between 1870 and 1922, the French had to prove themselves that 1870 was a fluke, an accident of history, the French created and directly ruled a rich empire second only to the British Empire in resource base and possibly, if it had been better administered, a wealthier revenue generator. The way that empire sprawled out, you would think the Marine National would be excited about the world ocean and would embrace the theory of sea use and denial with a passion, just when the British forgot that a navy was there to use and deny the access of the world ocean? The French did not have a very good WWI, land or air, but especially upon the sea. French battleship, Gaulois, around Christmas 1916. The French tended to be technically clever and theoretically capable at sea with so many material things: steam engines, chemistry, electronics, physics and so forth, but they had two major problems; they did not understand the fundamentals of how to do things in a "practical" naval way; and they loved their theory over practice. When you learn the wrong lessons about sea power and keep applying them, you build a navy that makes no sense and follow a naval and geophysical and geostrategic policy that make even less sense. You try to course correct in 1922. French naval thought (Castex) had finally junked the simplistic ideas embodied in the Jeune Ecole, and entered into the practical world of how a navy ensures use of the sea and functioned on the world ocean. I am sure the 1922 French admirals, with their fleet badly misused in support of a bunch of naval incompetents, as politically mandated by their civilian masters, wanted to do better and differently the next time they were called to war. You usually see a lot of writing about what went wrong when you have been beaten. Castex was very much a process and lessons explained teacher. Rather ponderous and nuts and bolts in his approach, he covered what he thought the Marine National did wrong, including everything from not paying attention to convoy defense, to use of naval geography to how the French designed, built and manned their ships right down to sea-mindedness. He started from zero and tried to explain to the French naval professionals, the way Mahan has done for Americans in general, why a navy is and how it should be structured and used. Castex addressed the wrong audience. The admirals were eager to listen. It was the French public, especially their political elites who were the ignorant students who needed the lessons. Why build that in 1931? Notice the AMERICAN radar? More on that 1943 change in a moment. The French Marine National was of course constrained (That Castex word. M.), by other realities, such as the need for a huge land army to keep the pesky Germans and maybe the Russians away from France. Then there was the political chaos of the Slump, which had first draw of French political attention, and the natural civilian political distrust of a professional military which still thought Bonaparte was a good idea. Yet within those severe constraints the French admiralty did rather well on the technical side of things. They did muff a few things: a. their sonar technology lagged. b. their AAA defense was weak. Yet for the resources they had and the mission they understood, they sized their fleet and arranged its disposition to serve French interests, rather than play second fiddle to another navy's dictates as they had been forced in WWI. I could go into detail about how the Marine National advised their WNT negotiators to resist efforts to restrict cruisers and destroyers, to manage the submarine and to emphasize the containment of battleship armament and tonnage limits for the "big two" and to maintain some kind of quantitative superiority over the Italians. The negotiators did not understand or listen in the real history, especially to the French admirals' complaints about the fiction of "standard displacement", a rather useful to the Americans British fiction that allowed the Anglo Americans and the Japanese to build long ranged warships that neither the French nor the Italians wanted or needed or desired other naval powers to have. See MAP. I mean, if that is where you expect to fight, is that not a design and constraint limit according to Castex? Your negotiators will resist small destroyer definitions and will not be too happy if your diplomats give up a demand for equivalent cruiser tonnage to the British for example. You might not be able to build that many cruisers, but you would want that option on paper, and you would want more cruisers than the ITALIANS. And of course you would orient to navaly protect the bulk of your empire. That is called a "treaty cheater".
Oddly enough, it was built to deal with GERMANS, not the Italians. It was a well executed design for its purpose. Part of the problem with it, was that it lacked an important element to make it work. The MN were building that when the Germans showed up on land. So... all in all, the Marine National had a rational, well-thought-out, quite Mahanic plan for construction, deployment and use of itself. Of all the navies at the 1922 WNT conference , both in the real history and this fictional timeline, I would argue the Marine National was the most rational and "practical" of the actors. It tried hard to come into conformity with reality in response to its miserable WWI experience, within "constraints" as Castex defined the term, with not only much better seagoing ships, but with a FRENCH naval doctrine and policy. Too bad the politicians repeated again the WWI mistake of saddling the fleet with the orders to play second fiddle to the whims of another navy again. The result of that political decision was that the Marine National was defeated without even being given a chance at all. It was split into two in a naval civil war. It was viciously attacked by its "supposed friends". A large part of it, self-scuttled to "keep its word" and maintain its honor. And what little that survived of it was third fiddled and parceled out among the very navies that attacked it. It ceased for a while to even have a fleet identity, hence the Americanization of the Le Fantastique in 1943. You might NOW begin to understand this man? His name was Admiral Darlan. He drifted into the role of villain. He did not start out that way. ======================================================= By now, reader, you should begin to see a theme in this presentation as I try to apply a non-traditional frame of reference to the points of view of the various participants of and to the WNT, with discussion of the alternatives that each participant might have chosen. It will soon be apparent, that each of the participants in their alternatives, either lacked the means, or the political wisdom to execute a rational program. Here, in the French case, it can be seen, that even when the service did its due diligence and tried its best; poor decisions; political decisions, as well as a few technical errors made, defeated the Marine National's best efforts. The bitter irony of coming closest to preparation and failing worst in war, among the WNT five, is not lost on me. Castex was right. You have to have the moral vision first before you can fix the material problems.
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on May 23, 2023 10:30:40 GMT
Here is some hot sauce. Not every navy had Dudley Pound for an excuse. Some navies were worse! After reading that sheer utter incompetently stupid drivel in "Proceedings", I was flabbergasted. That somebody was stupid enough to write it, was a historical fact. That it was stupidly published, after TARANTO and BISMARCK was a historical fact. That THIS happened was a historical fact. USS AlaskaAnd the expletive deleted idiots responsible, who wasted man years and national treasure, in the middle of a war, to produce that garbage (^^^) were; Samuel Murray Robinsonand our favorite whipping boy... Harold Rainsford Stark Even back in WWI, we knew that the contents and conclusions of that above article was not correct. I mean look at all the armored cruisers stupidly SUNK, doing supposedly armor cruiser things in WWI. So... how was that absolute nonsense in steel allowed to happen? Well, if you refuse to believe in the airplane and the submarine, if you are stuck in a 19th century fantasy land where the modern radio and radar are simply not an oncoming thingy thing in your world, and where majestic lines of blundering battleships line up and shoot each other in a parade fleet fashion, where you have attended the WAR COLLEGE and FLUNKED OUT, and served at sea in a billet, but never where life and death is a captain's or admiral's judgment against wind, wave, weather and an enemy you cannot see and where it was always someone else's call to make, and you are a cocktail party political admiral whose flag billets are either bureaus where to look good, you hide bad news and shuffle the papers and LIE to CONGRESS that could happen. Your alleged brief sea stints to flag up the career ladder with "sea duty" is actually you at the Honolulu cocktail circuit, with your staff actually working at sea in your absence, as you career climb up to CNO by schmoozing the right political and social contacts at parties. That does not substitute for real command at sea time, folks. Guess who "Broderick" was modeled after? And let us not forget that Stark was a war criminal. Holwitt, Joel I. "Execute Against Japan", Ph.D. dissertation, Ohio State University, 2005, pp. 212–217 passim. Where was that idiot in 1930? Aide to the Secretary of the Navy. Biggest MISTAKE Charles Francis Adams ever made.
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
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Post by miletus12 on May 24, 2023 5:49:35 GMT
More hot sauce. A Study of the General Board of the U.S. Navy, 1929-1933 A Thesis Presented to the Department of History and the Faculty of the Graduate College University of Nebraska In Partial Fulfillment of the Requirements for the Degree Master of Arts University of Nebraska at Omaha Scott T. Price April, 1989You can read the thesis at the citation (205 pages worth), but if you have trouble finding it, just type "Incompetent Leadership, US Navy 1930", and then start reading. To summarize the thesis, I can give you the following information; 1. The General Board was a semi-formal policy advice board that met as kind of a corporate board of directors for the United States Navy. The man who sneaked in the actual naval general staff under the nose of that idiot, President Woodrow Wilson, and his incompetent Navy Secretary, Josephus Daniels, was Bradley Allen Fiske, who created the post of Chief of Naval Operations and parked that staff under that office. 2. The decade, after Fiske retired, saw the General Board try to steer the USN to the completion of the 1916 naval program which was also Fiske's legacy in the real history. You have to love Fiske. Unlike Jackie Fisher of the Royal Navy, who had no common sense or any engineering background, Fiske knew his navy's mission, its Castex' constraints, and had a shrewd idea as to what was politically possible and what was needed for a fleet "second to none". 3. While the thesis goes into great detail, from the historical records, you can deduce that the General Board was at great loggerheads with the president and the isolationist congress. You can also see that the Navy Secretary, Charles Francis Adams III, was a reluctant implementer of the Hoover isolationist and anti-naval program. As I have written earlier, Adams was the secretary who started and pushed hard many modernization programs and efforts that would bear fruit 10 to 15 years later, but which had to be remedied because his idiot successor, Claude Swanson failed to follow through and exercise taut civilian oversight on the Bureau Chiefs who mismanaged those programs. I suppose the only real complaint I have against Adams, the avid yachtsman, sailor and navy advocate; was that he made the bonehead mistake of recommending Harold Stark to remain as a naval aide to Claude Swanson instead of rotating that gladhander out of Washington to a lighthouse detail as the Bureau of Navigation wanted. The only reason I could find for Adams to make that colossal mistake was that Stark had demonstrated he could schmooze Congress persons to see the Navy way from time to time. 4. It must be brought up that Herbert Hoover was not only an isolationist, and a pacifist, but he was also a civil engineer, who thought that disarmament was a quantifiable problem that could be solved by "yardsticking" or seeking equivalence values of different ship categories by mathematical formulas. I do not know if Hoover's professors were incompetent when they taught him basic engineering principles, or if he was just that ignorant of dynamic systems analusis. To explain how the General Board reacted when Hoover pressured Adams to make them conform to this notion of yardsticking, and propose a set of yardsticks as one to be set against British and other nations' proposals for civilians to hash out as the basis of arms reduction negotiation: well, does tying down the safety valve and double banking the fires mean anything to you, reader? The members of the General Board were WELL AWARE of the side talks the British and French conducted on the sly concerning cruisers, so they could present a united anti-American front; before the proposed 1930 London Conference and the Royal Navy treachery afoot in those talks. After the admirals explained basic concepts like area search parameters and how convoys worked and why a BIG cruiser for a navy with few or no oversea bases was vital and how a BIG cruiser also could be smacked by 2 or 3 small ones, and that Franco-British calls for limitation by aggregate tonnage was not in American interests, but rather that American proposals should insist on unit characteristics so that a foreign navy could not swamp a few small Americans cruisers with sheer numbers, but rather the enemy, and they used that word "enemy" not just meaning Japan, would be forced to build to meet to the American constrained definition. The General Board turned yardsticking on its head, to enforce absolute parity; unit for unit. Once Adams understood, he went to the mat on those principles and the 1930 Conference collapsed in mutual recriminations as the British went home in a huff. 5. The Japanese were bemused. They thought they would be blamed for the shambles. They did not have to do an expletive-deleted thing. The Anglo-Americans torpedoed each other and the Japanese negotiators just laughed. As for the Italians and the French, once the French thought the British were about to sell them down the Thames for an adjusted American proposed deal, they backed out and the Italians, true to Mussolini's own brand of stupidity, but remembering the singular principle of "whatever the French do and get, we do and get, too." , also backed away from the Geneva talks. After that fiasco, it was the Great Depression that was the Great Limitation mechanism.
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on May 25, 2023 3:37:42 GMT
Let me quote a pertinent section from the previous cited thesis...
Now you can see for yourself, reader, where I got the basis for the fictional 1922 Washington Nmval Treaty? The Americans were indeed divided among themselves about the cruiser question, Moffett did indeed want aircraft carriers, and there was a well grounded and historical enmity between the American and British admiralties.
When I do speculate, there is history behind that speculation.
Miletus.
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
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Post by miletus12 on May 30, 2023 17:22:24 GMT
From Scientific American: Quoted chart.
The thing you should take away from that article, is that long before Charles Evans Hughes or Henry Stinsom screwed up the USN at the disarmament conferences of 1922 and 1930, American professional naval officers understood, that it was not battleships or even aircraft carriers that determined naval power. It was the fleet trains and the general purpose ships. Not to put too fine a point on it, but the more oil tankers a fleet had, the larger % of its combat forces it could deploy to use the world ocean farther from its home ports and naval bases. If you take away nothing else from this fictional history, then understand this fact. For every warship or naval aircraft, you need THREE supply vessels to keep her at sea. The American navy can currently keep about 100 warships at sea as a presence. The only case where this is not true is with submarines. Those vessels from the very start of their history back in 1898 were designed to be self-contained sortie units and pure sea denial weapon systems. It took the the Americans about fifty years to figure that one out. The Germans thought they knew it, but dramatically demonstrated through misuse inj botgh world wars that they did not comprehend what a submarine was or how it was supposed to be used. Today, there still is a belief that submarines would be used as "clean weapons" to strictly kill warships, because of treaties, bui that is about as false in fact as the claim that there is such a thing as a clean "air campaign", when it is demonstrable, that in the year 2023, the Americans, who conduct an ongoing air campaign against "terrorists" have little or no compunction about bystanders being assassinated along wioth the latest candidate "terrorist leader" of the drone strike of the month club. If you want to know the 1930 naval logic, among the best professional submariners in the Big Five; it could be summarized by the sour cynical observation that submarine warfare, if properly executed, would consist primarily of hiding from destroyers and aircraft while pouncing on any freighter detected within a blockade area that came within a submarine's reach. Note that dictim; " any freighter". In the era of the airplane, the submarine was and is the only blockade weapon that works as a sea denier. Unless you count the mine?
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
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Post by miletus12 on May 31, 2023 21:03:54 GMT
A Study of the General Board of the U.S. Navy, 1929-1933 A Thesis Presented to the Department of History and the Faculty of the Graduate College University of Nebraska In Partial Fulfillment of the Requirements for the Degree Master of Arts University of Nebraska at Omaha Scott T. Price April, 1989What should the Americans have done in 1929 as their naval policy in the face of national economic collapse and the social and political pressures so engendered? Remember, that the first duty of a government is to defend the citizens who are members of the social contract that created it. In the legitimate heirarchy of duties which Herbert Hoover's administration failed to address, the navy would be far down the list of priorities as the labor force was 20% unemployed, the agricultural base had collapsed, the overall credit system was uninsured and unsecured, people were starving to death and civil order was at hazard. A navy becomes an expensive luxury during a crisis like the Depression; and it becomes triply redundant when the administration which oversaw the economic disaster of 1929 soimehow manages to make things worse with seeming inaction or deliberate callousness, while using the national military to repress the people's right to peaceably assemble and demand that their government do something to fix the mess IT created. (And people wonder why I am a socialist? M.) Hoover just did not get it. Here is what was fed to the American public by Hollywood about their navy. Maybe there was a Lou Michaud at hand to teach a young (wo)man what a pack of lies that was, or maybe it was more basic, that an underemployed or unemployed head of family took her children to a theater as a treat to watch some escapism as Hollywood dished out from its fantasy factories to divert attention away from what deep trouble the American social contract was in, as its civilian government violated it, turning the army loose upon citizens who sought peaceful redress of justifiable greivances? Well, that was the mess that a gladhander CNO and the gunclubber General Board filled with battleship happy fossils ignored as they vaingloriously squabbled among themselves. They disserved their nation by so ignoring reality. Was the United States Navy alone in this peculiar flight from reality? I think not. Our friends in Japan, who had a bunch of mutinous colonels and captains, saw the economic plight of the ordinary impoverished and suffering Japanese farmer or factory worker. Those midgrade officers CAME from such families and felt that they were duty bound to alleviate that suffering. What was the military solution, these officers wondered? Well, they had one. They had a HUGE war machine, far outsized in proportion to a nation with 1/5 the actual economic power of China. In the previous times when Japan faced economic ruin and political collapse, the military had attacked and looted China. It had worked, or so the colonels and captains thought, so why not go that solution one more time and make China pay to bail Japan out? So they tried it and what happened? There is an American folk tale about a rabbit, and a tar trap. That was China for Japan. I think a parallel case could be made for the political elite who ruled the British Empire. Putting aside the "mystique" of the British navy, which was a practical instrument and tool of force for reaching India, and thus looting that nation for Britain's coffers, it only made logical sense to the crown governments to fund a huge outsized navy for what was actually a smallish island nation, whose own functional economic power was about half of the actual economic wealth of the Asian subcontinent. And of course there were the Japanese nibbling at the margins of the "British Empire". Funny how that one worked out, since it was the British who started the Japanese on their own road to ruin... Then we have the French who kept a navy around, because they needed to defend their own supply lines to their African "colonies" from which French military planners expected to draw 1 in every 4 "French" soldiers to fight the Germans in the inevitable next revenge war. The navy had to be starved because the French had to fund their land army for the previously mentioned Germans. Still some navy had to be had to keep the Italians at bay. And the result? Castex must have wept. Then we have the Italians, another case of which to fund, the army or the navy? I wonder if the Italian taxpayers watched Italian newsreels and asked themselves the same questions about their navy as many Americans of the 1930s did? Why waste the money when the nation had greater more immediate needs? Well the world is a dangerous place, filled with belligerent cretins, who think robbery is a good idea. A navy is a needed police force if your interest is legitimate trade upon the world ocean. That is straight out of Mahan. Well, how about that one? Ethiopia turned into a trap for Italy,.just like China did for Japan as the Moose sought out wealth by looting, instead of wealth by trade. Yet for all of his mistakes, going into multiple wars with an army which could not even feed its men, cloth them against the expected weather or guarantee the Italian soldiers enough water to drink in places of searing heat and freezing cold, the Italian NAVY, the Regia Marina, managed to keep the foolish wars going far longer than any competent enemy should have allowed. Nobody likes to remember that one little fact. The Italians were not the rubes some people like to pretend they were. =================================================================== But THIS was unforgivable. The impoverished Americans HAD the money in their strapped circumstances to simulate the event three times. They knew it was the logical first strike from their most likely enemy. Yet the same utter stupidity illustrated by Hoover's Navy, continued through the administration of FDR, with politicians, both of the civilian gladhander idiot variety, that we need in our political system to balance regionalisms and narrow bigotted political interests and the politicians in uniform, who stupidly contributed to the culture of mendacity that allowed Pearl Harbor to happen, and who hobbled the fleet into impotence when it did happen. Expletive deleted. In the fictional timeline which this is, the biggest fix is not the hardware or the political economic circumstances as in actual history. It is the LEADERSHIP of the institutions at play which needs the remedy.
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on Jun 2, 2023 2:46:37 GMT
Before you build a navy and consider its purpose and use, you need to know why you have that navy. (^^^) Of course in this fictional historical timeline, we want to ask Mister do nothing Herbert Hoover this question. Why did you do this stupid thing?.. Now Mister fictional do-nothing Herbert Hoover, could we have applied some common sense here? A government (John Locke and Thomas Jefferson et al.) exists to provide the environment whereby the citizenry can live and conduct their activities in daily safety. That is a SERVICE, the government provides, which means a government, as a service provider, has to have income to pay its employees to provide that service. Taxes are the service fee to provide the service as stipulated in the "social contract". That kind of makes the government the major service provider who must ensure that economy works properly. Whether capitalist or SOCIALIST, you cannot refute the duty of a government to ensure that people can eat, work, have shelter, have health, and have money to pay their fees to the government so the government can pay its employees to "ensure that economy works properly".. Mister fictional do-nothing Herbert Hoover's first duty was to restore faith in the credit markets which had collapsed. Whatever it took. however it was done, the lines of credit and prudent ensured risk-taking which kept American capitalism operating had to be maintained. How? Well Roosevelt's crew would implement the credit insurance reforms and install regulatory oversight, but by the time they got in, the damage was too severe. The American people lost faith in their social contract. People believe in the concrete and the tangible. Deficit spending in the short term produicing goods and services for the promise of a better quality of life for the citizens in the long term is classic Keynes. Nothing says TANGIBLE like goods and services being bought and factories humming away producing huge visible capital infrastructure. Ocean liner. (^^^) International trade moves in ships. (^^^) You want to move that trade in YOUR ships. Drydock (^^^) You want to build your ships at home and also build ships for other nations. It also comes in handy when you... Destroyer (^^^) ... want to protect your use of the sea for free trade, free navigation and commerce. Mister fictional do-nothing Herbert Hoover, could we please have a National Recovery Act? a. Overhaul the banking system and insure deposits, so Jane S. Citizen knows her bank will not be foreclosed? b. Put Jane S. Citizen's shiftless husband to work somewhere building infrastructure that will improve goods and services delivery? Power plants, libraries, more schools and hospitals aland, improved ports and docks, a global navigation system. and a huge merchant fleet to move imports and exports (Subsidized by the government; if necessary.) would be nice. c. A navy to defend b. ======================================================= That by the way is what this guy preached; after he read MAHAN======================================================= What should that navy look like Mister fictional do-nothing Herbert Hoover? Well, unlike the historical American navy centered on a singular massed Jutland style battle fleet which could only do one wrong thing not very well, that fictional fleet should exist to promote American free trade and to ensure right of American access to the world ocean at spots and times of American choosing.The Washington Naval Treaty, as it existed, sort of strait jacketed the USN into that Jutland battle fleet model, but that treaty has loopholes. a. The USG can build as many oil tankers, ammunition ships, submarine tender ships, "research" submarines, seaplane tenders, hospital ships, weather ships, drystores ships, cable laying ships, passenger cargo ships, sea going tugs, sea going drydocks, and radio relay ships as it wants. If some of them happen to resemble large destroyers, that is just your imagination, France. b. All those useless battleships can receive an "Italian makeover". How about that? More "cruisers". Big ones defined as "battleships", but now useful because now they can sail with the aircraft carriers that will be showing the flag everwhere. (Next stop, Yokohama. Why? Because that sea voyage will be good for diplomatic friendly relations with Japan and the North Pacific typhoon training will be "useful", ADM Pratt for brains. M.) c. Zeppelins are not working. *(Multiple crashes and fatalities.). How about some BLIMPS? Bonus is that we save ADM Moffertt's life and get... d. How about that unified air force? No more Billy Mitchell, thank you. But let us keep that coast defense idea, he had, because nothing says; "No submarines allowed here, chappy.", like a large four engine bomber flying about with depth charges and a searchlight. (Got to remember this is 1930ish and radar is not a thing yet. M.) e. And in the margins of the sea-faring portion of the national recovery act which will set the steel and ship building industries afire to train and employ THOUSANDS, how about a few bread crumbs for... --- effectors development and validation. Nothing in the WNT says anything about designing and proofing AAA, torpedoes, shells and assorted mines and detectors and guidance systems. --- Do not forget the Marines. They need effectors and validation too. Nicaragua could have used some tanky Marines based on the Banana War AARs. Dive bombing was not enough. --- training, training, training. The navy should be built to ensure "free trade" and "free transit" and "right of navigation" for American use of the sea. And of course, it exists, to deny the same to America's enemies. (Not you, France. We have a "special relationship". M.)
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
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Post by miletus12 on Jun 3, 2023 3:42:33 GMT
Hellions of the Deep.I am reading that book and another, entitled "Ship Killer: A History of the American Torpedo by Thomas Wildenberg", to supplement it. When I get through with both books; I will have a lot more unkind things to write about the American navy after the Woodrow Wilson criminal regime wrecked it. But for today, let me drop a few comments about the average British, the inconsistent French, the gadget happy Japanese and the Italians, when it comes to torpedoes. The British: Whatever you might say about British engineering in theory, which is beautiful and elegant on paper, if you have ever owned a piece of their manufactured goods produced from it, you immediately notice that "craftsmanship" and "functionality" and "maintenance", may not have been the first quality, or best manufactured practices designed or built into the object. The specific object in this case, the British interwar torpedo had about 14,000 individual parts per type, and was not much evolved from the Whitehead Mark V of WWI. The British dabbled in two types of propulsion systems inside their fish. The more common was the wet-heater, where kerosene was used as fuel and water was used as combustion chamber coolant and as the working fluid in the form of steam to drive a four cylinder radial engine. This was the actual world standard, with the Americans being the only ones to use pure turbine drives instead. It was highly inefficient in that it wasted about 80% of the available chemical and kinetic energy possible from the "steam" due to poor gaskets used and cylinder seals leakage. The other torpedo was a type also favored by the WWI Germans, which was called the "burner cycle" or closed loop diesel engined torpedo. It was more efficient than the wet heater and gave about DOUBLE the work throughput and correspondingly much greater range as the air was the working fluid as well as the combustor, with 45,000 times the expansion gradient as opposed to 22,000 for superheated steam in the cylinders. The British dabbled with enriched combustion gas mixes to improve either wet heater or burner cycle without much success. Their Mark VIII, for example, was deployed with 50% oxygen and inerts, with no significant performance improvement even though it was a burner cycle. That was probably due to that rather unusual manufacture process I previously mentioned. British guidance systems were of the standard gyro steer setup that had not significantly changed since d'Orbry had first patented his control setup around 1900. Depth control was by annular membrane hydrostatic valve with mechanical linkages to depth planes in the aft steer control unit via mechanical linkages, easily recognizable from the first setup Whitehead had originally designed in 1888. Roll dampening was supposed to be provided by a pendulum system in conjunction to the gyro control. It never occurred to the British or to anyone else to adapt the SPERRY autopilot system to torpedoes when that was developed for aircraft. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Remember this description of guidance and propulsion methods, it was the same setup, with minor variations, that virtually the entire naval weapon design establishment globally used. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The end that went bang in a British torpedo, as long as it was the contact function, worked quite well. If you looked at a British torpedo funny, it would go off. That is not much of an exaggeration. They were dangerous fish to load and store as they were shock sensitive. The British torpedoes only failed to bang when the designers tried to put a magnetic influence ignition feature into it. For much the same reasons as the Americans and the Germans would goof up their own fish, the British failed to install a sensitivity control or a variable disruptor into their magnetic field disturbance setup, as they replicated the error of making the Earth's magnetic field the field to be disrupted. Flux lines change angle of incidence, as any halfway competent high school physics student who ever did the iron filings on a sheet of paper with a bar magnet experiment could have told those collective idiots. At least the Americans tried to map the globe for that problem. The British and the Germans did not even do that much. Going back to the warhead sensitivity and the tendency of British torpedoes to break up and explode if they were dropped from height, the British spent a lot of time and money on how to air launch their torpedoes in the 1920s, and that is to their credit. The cable retarded fall system they used at Taranto was brilliant. It worked well. The torpedoes splashed into the water, and half of them sank, ran in circles or missed completely as their gyro steer failed, but they did not break up or explode on impact as German made or American made air dropped torpedoes did. All in all, when the magnetic feature was diosabled and when the target was not moving too fast or too distant, British torpedoes did have a good success rate. About 10% PH, which was not too shabby. ====================================================== The French If you looked at a Schneider or a Toulon torpedo you saw two varieties of fish. It was either a kerosene fueled wet heater modified Brotherhood three cyclinder radial engined or an ethyl alcohol burner cycle four cylinder stolen Schwartzkopf propulsion cycle setup. The French for some unknown reason refused to follow the British and the Germans into gadgetsville with fancy magnetic exploders. They used a simple contact pistol and packed in as much secondary charge as their fish could carry. Aside from that differfence, their fish were essentially Whiteheads with better manufacture quality control and more reliability than the British made ones. Where the French failed was in doctrine and purpose of use and fire control solutions. They never could decide if they were snipers, brawlers or volley shooters. If you look at their warships, you see that they carried relatively few torpedo tubes per class versus the Americans or the Japanese. The Briitsh were of a like mindset, but early on the British decided that they were snipers and applied doctrine and fire control systems accordingly with the acceptable results. You would think the French, who were going up against the Italians of all navies, would have decided on massed volley fire and brawling with advanced fire control systems of their own? The few times the French tried to torpedo anybody, this inconsistency as to the method of torpedo employment and their poor fire control systems failed them. They usually missed. It was as much a fault of their inconsstent doctrine of employment as it was in their aiming and torpedo data control setups for shoots, which unlike the British, were simply awful. ====================================================== The Japanese. Using licensed Schwartzkopf WWI four cylinder radial engine wet heater designs and successful and I do mean successful oxygen enrichment schemes of 90% or more in 90/10 oxygen/inert gas mixes with 2 stage starter cycles, the Japanese created the longest ranged torpedoes in the world. The propulsion systems were made to the German WWI standard and were reliable. The exploders were contact pistol initiated, backed up by a kinetic sensitive primary charge that would go off on impact if the silly things hit anything at 45 knots or faster. These things should have been deadly, yet their probability of hit was about half that of a US torpedo. Why? Their gyro control setup was miss matched to the time of run. If the gyro falls out of control at 500 seconds and the torpedo runs at 1000 seconds that is 500 seconds where a badly designed tail control will allow angular momentum of the torpedoes radial engine to drift it off the ideal intersect path as computed in the Japanese torpedo data computer which incidentally was a piece of bad engineering in itself as the peoplw who designed that fault prone gadget failed to make the gearing match the SPEED of the new torpedoes. Which is to say, if your torpedo runs 25,000 meters and your drift error is 300 meters at 10,000 meters runout or 4X drift error of what your American enemy's Mark 15 is at the same run time at 10,000 meters, well you missed at the same range that he hit you. Add to that problem that the Japanese were the most undisciplined snap shoot single ship indidualists who believed in their own propaganda. In addition, for all their range test shots in the 1930s they did not test for two real things when they exhaustively proofed their fish: a. drift error. b. sensitivity of that same contact pistol to ship's wakes. Americans learned about that one real quickly and sped up and crossed their own wakes in turns. That is what saved USS Washington from those 40 torpedoes launched in her general direction at Second Guadalcanal. They prematured on her crossed wake. The result for the Americans fortunately was the most inaccurate torpedoes ever made used by the most incompetent naval gunslingers (Except for Tanaka, Raizo, who knew about those drift defects and volley fired accordingly in massed division disciplined line of bearing attacks to neutralize for drift. He was the Tokyo Express. So naturally the IJN fired him and beached him ashore at Singapore. American luck is incredible is it not? M.), in WWII. ====================================================== Italy The Italians were conservative. They were of the Keep it Simple Susan and if it worked do not change it school. They had two series or rather manufactories of torpedo series. The original one was Fiume which they acquired from Austria by WWI conquest, and the other was Naples (Silafurico) which came into existence about 1920 or thereabouts. These lines were of the Whitehead/ Brotherhood engine WWI design l updated to wet-heater configuration in the 1935 Regia Marina program. Of the two lines, the Americans thought the Sllafurico line was the better made and more reliable. The difference in quality was insignificant though. If in range and proper lead computed, both sets of fish sank you as the British discovered. The reason their deadliness is not better known was that the Italians had about 40 months to play with the British. The British have a tradition among their historians to make it all about Germany with maybe a side mention of Japan and neglect to cover those 40 naval months when they failed against the Italians. The Italian fish were probably the second best torpedoes in the world as to run mechanics next to the Japanese, and certainly as accurate as the British fish. How good were they? The Germans mostly copied the back ends and control setups of the Italian 1935 fish for their own use and used Italian air dropped fish when their own air dropped versions turned out to be garbage.
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miletus12
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To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on Jun 5, 2023 2:26:14 GMT
Lessons from the Early Imperial Japanese Navy By Midshipman Fourth Class Jack Montgomery, U.S. NavyIt is an interesting article, but it has sort of misrepresented the actual problems of the present USN by ignoring the past history of the USN and instead looking for the WRONG historical paradigm shift as a model out of our current doldrums. We were and are not susceptible to the IJN development path which led to the Japanese navy's huge in the end navy snuffing errors of WWII judgement for their organization. The arroganr foolish expletive deleted admirals who plunged their nation into that huge naval error in judgment lacked strategic depth of vision and thought mere tactics would substitute for operational art shortcomings and lack of naval vision. The 1920s USN as already has been remarked had a different set of problems which our foolish midshipman above has not been educated about. The Honda Point disaster, much like the Apia Typhoon and the Halsey Typhoons were and are more serious disasters in their historical contexts than the USS Fitzgerald or the serious recent incident in the South China sea with the USS Connecticut. Such incidents, once investigated as to cause and circumstance, reveal a different problem. The USN is out there using its ships hard, getting ships and crews hurt, doing what it is supposed to do, operating in the real environment, making the inevitable mistakes humans make when operatinmg upon the world ocean. That it makes these mistakes was and IS a good thing, so long as the lessons were and are repeatedly learned. You have to keep charts up to date. You have to improve close quarters ship handling and station keeping. It is when you lose ships at pierside, doing NOTHING... that is when you needed to kick in the reforms and the courts martial. That was the problem the IJN had as it lost ships in port and to typhoons at sea, doing NOTHING. Our young midshipman does not know the history of and about the badly-designed and badly-built warships of the IJN, which blew up, or which burned down and were lost because the idiots who built them had no clue how to calculate flexion, or weight over length, or how to lay ships out for function after inevitable engineering casualties or battle damage. As awful as the LCS series of vessels have been, they have ridden out typhoons in the modern age. As bad as the flatiron Amphitrites were in the 1890s, not one of them was lost in a Pacific typhioon. If you wanted a role model for the 1920s USN or for the modern USN to emulate, do not look to Japan of the 1890s to 1920s. Those people lucked into great power status and a great reputation, by piggybacking off the French and the British traditions, tech and trainmg. Using that the IJN trounced a pair of politically corrupted knucklehead navies that posed no real challenge. Look to the 1890s American navy, which had to claw itself up from nothing and take on a rather underrated Spanish navy long before the Amerrican naval officers thought they were ready to fight anybody. The Americans began with a British starter set of badly designed export monkey ships, then graduated into their home grown technology, based on their own experience and their own naval traditions. They borrowed bits and pieces from the two known supposed best ship builders and users, the British and the French, as the protected cruiser Baltimore and the armored cruiser New York attested in planform, but the building and manning was all American. The Americans emphasized in those days, several things which the Europeans were sloppy about: training, shiphandling, damage control, and technological innovation. The USN had mixed results. The Maine blew up when her automatic sprinkler system was turned off and the coal bunker fire set off a coal dust explosion, USS Brooklyn almost hit USS Texas in a mid battle collision, and an idiot admiral (Sampson), put half of the USN into the repair yards post war because he wrecked engineering plants by overtaxing ships or pulled a Beatty with sloppy battle instructions (USS Masschusetts turret fire, due to sloppy ammunition handling.) as well as general ship mishandling. Yet for those flubs, the USN pulled together to ad hoc (Schley after Sampson deserted in the face of the enemy. M.), brawl the Spaniards to ruin at Bahia de Santiago, exhibited good damage control, (The USS Massachusetts did not blow up like the MNS Liberte or the British battleships usually did.), and the American admirals did know how to op-art and war-plan, even if their tactical skills left a lot to be desired. So if we in this fictional timeline want to FIX the real timeline 1920s American navy, we should take our lessons from the fleet that had the best gunnery, the best training regime and the best ship handling of the year 1898 on Earth, and emulate THAT model, not the Japanese delusionary one.
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miletus12
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To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on Jun 5, 2023 12:54:52 GMT
You will see this reposted in "Thunder and Lightning".
Miletus
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miletus12
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To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on Jun 6, 2023 17:52:34 GMT
An example of naval incompetence and stupidity>================================================================================= That Tirpitz would develop a hatred for the United States and somehow transmit that hatred to infect other German naval officers is ineluctably part and parcel of the "aggrieved party mentality" that seemed to become a general psychosis among these Wilhelmine nitwits. Do you really want to know why^1 the saner German admirals, post WWI, the relatively few of them, dispaired of this attitude that Tirpitz spread about as much as he also spread his lunatic risk fleet theory.? Now how the United States figured in that strictly British criminally incited imperialist filibuster is beyond me, except that the American ambassador in Madrid was bemused by the British reaction to the Kruger telegram and said so. Tirpitz, himself, was infuriated by that American official's public humiliation of his Kaiser, when he witnessed it. In effect, Tirpitz was quite aware that Hannis Taylor was plotting the overthrow of the Spanish rule in Cuba right in front of his German naval consul's nose, and that Taylor was quite obviously further successful in thwarting a Spanish effort to recruit other European states, especially GREAT BRITAIN in a pan European coalition to thwart the United States.. The bemoaning of Germany's lack of a suitable navy to settle America's hash in that matter, was and is evident. Tirpitz was to be future infuriated by the United States Navy in further German humiliations at Morocco and Venezuela. He could not understand right up until the First World War "why" the Americans were allowed to get away with such outrages upon the world ocean, why the British looked the other way, while "poor Germany" was British checked and chafed at every time she looked for "colonies" and her "place in the sun". Well the reason was simple. Americans were not trying to overthrow the world order... yet. Mahan was ours. He taught us patience and circumspection.
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on Jun 7, 2023 18:18:16 GMT
More on Tirpitz.PROFESSIONAL naval officers are by their nature, with the people and resources placed in their care; cautious, conservative and not likely to make rash decisions based on snap judgments. They tend to be guided by what worked in the past and are leery of newfangled notions, until some IDIOT tests it out first and proves that there might be something to be noticed, emulated, used or improved. It goes to that old American saying; "The first man through the door gets shot, so then you use the grenade." When Tirpitz formulated his battleship centric "risk fleet" theory around 1896, he had yet to see the Americans or the Japanese operate naval campaigns. He HAD read Mahan (1890) and like every other incompetent amateur^1 out there, latched onto the "Big Concentrated Battle Fleet: and ignored the 99% that Mahan wrote about commerce, naval geography, WEATHER, blockades, supply, etc. that followed in the decade after "The Influence of Seapower Upon History". Nor had Tirpitz bothered reading the French accounts of the Sino French wars or Japanese accounts of the First Sino Japanese War, or he might just have realized that battleships were not all that important. TORPEDOES were. But gunfights at sea are glamorous and who paid attention to the French and was not the Battle of the Yalu decided by gunships shooting at each other? The Battle of the Yalu was a draw. We have Philo Norton McGiffin's accounts of that debacle. So, based on incomplete precedents, comes Tirpitz's risk fleet idea and his two decade politically engineered monomaniacal pursuit of a battleship centric fleet parked one day away from the British Isles so as to put the British Empire at risk. And the British get into a battleship building race (Which they win.), and still almost lose the war at sea, because in spite of Tirpitz and the Kaiser and the rest of those certifiable Wilhelmine naval nitwits, the Germans bumble their way around to Admiral Aube's way of doing in the British Empire. You REALLY should pay attention to the French. If the Americans had (Surprise attacks. M.), the USN would have suffered a lot less grief. But that is not glamorous, is it? And of course, 60 warships sunk by MINES out of a 600 ship fleet. incuding 20 of 60 ironclads. That would be the United States Navy experience in the American Civil War, which is why mines were such a huge concern during the Spanish American War, with the Americans going to extreme measures to ensure that the Spanish could not get any that worked. Ironclads or Monitors = BATTLESHIPs. And of course there is that thing about Naval Geography about which Mahan wrote... I think it might be the first time in history, where the SUPERIOR in numbers fleet, just had to play "FLEET IN BEING". You begin to see where the Tirpitz incompetence sets in? Alfred Thayer Mahan, the man who the British despised, and who they regarded as inferior to Julian Corbett, predicted that the naval war of WWI would assume the shape it did in the North Sea and the English Channel, with blockade as the deciding element of naval strategy based on the two exits configuration of the shorline barriers. Perhaps, the fact that Mahan guided a strategic naval campaign of his own (General Board in the Spanish American War. M.), and had to sweat out real decisions that forced him to modify his opinions on the Operational Naval Art, especially when he was relieved to discover that the Bermejo Armada was stupid enough to come to America's home waters where it could be isolated in a fjord, blockaded and then army forced out of harbor into the waiting guns of an American fleet (NO torpedoes! M.) which experience incidentally enabled him to predict the shape of the Battle of Tsushima and its likely outcome as the end result of a long BLOCKADE of Port Arthur, its failed relief by the European squadrons of the Russian navy, and naval shoreline configuration that allowed the Japanese to set up a kill funnel, could have alerted a better admiral than Tirpitz. Or His Opposite^1. The result of a proper naval campaign is a compelled battle, not a decisive battle. And the side which compels it is not guaranteed to win it! In the case of Tirpitz and his British counterpart, it was the fulmination of follies decades in the making. While the two battleship fleets stared at each other across the North Sea for two years, one afraid to fight because it would be sunk, and "what would the Kaiser say?", and the other was afraid to fight because the Germans just might win and would then transport over an army to land in England: the actual compelled naval battle / campaign happened in the North Atlantic, where the British navy was busy losing the naval war, with the excuse that it needed destroyers to protect its battleships from submarines, while the confused fumbling Germans sank all those helpless freighters with rinky dink U-boats in an on again and off again political start-stop Admiral Aube type naval war. But as to the lessons neither the British, nor the Germans learned prior to WWI? The Japanese and the Americans really feared an enemy fleet would resort to guerre de course for which they had no answer. Instead the obliging enemy, in each case, sailed into the waiting embrace of a defending fleet that could just position itself to fight the enemy when the enemy chose to come to it to be captured or destroyed under ideal conditions for the defenders. So in WWI, which expensive useless battleship centric navy had to fight to break a blockade and could not risk it? Why... It was the Risk Fleet of course. Nothing in naval matters says STUPID, like those who misunderstand MAHAN. ^1 Jackie Fisher, the worst admiral of WWI, who was so incompetent, that he could not read a sounding chart, before he proposed his stupid Pomerania idea. POSTSCRIPT: Some navies never learn. Did you know, reader, that the British navy did not institute convoy OFFICIALLY in WWI until after Admiral Sims visited the British to arrange convoys for the AEF? Here is another one... The British navy did not OFFICIALLY institute convoy in WWII until 21 September 1941. CYNICAL Miletus
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on Jun 8, 2023 22:08:16 GMT
Napoleon was having a BAD day. To see just how badly one inept corporal can screw up, read the rest at the citation. It will set the tone nicely for what follows... As this is a NAVAL disarmament thread; so let us now turn to how the USN disarmed itself with criminal stupidity in the 1920s and early 1930s. =============================================================================== ================================================================================= Ah, the Mark 14. It is a little too simplistic, that one. The whole story as told in The Hellions of the Deep, a deeply flawed book that I just finished, is that during the Hoover Administration, the USN along with other global navies, had undertaken to modernize its WWI inventory of torpedoes. Now a nation keeps a munitions and equipment stockpile on hand in case a war breaks out suddenly. The theory is that the stockpile will carry the armed services along until wartime production tools up and new improved stuff comes along to equip the forces in the field. That is fine as long as there is a technological plateau and, whoever the expected enemy or unexpected enemy is, remains as static in that technological plateau as you do. This was NOT a safe assumption with either the British or the Japanese, both who were regarded as potential hostile forces that the USN just might have to confront. So the American navy decided to improve its ordnance just in case. And that was prudent, because the British and the Japanese, who were afraid of the Americans, and each other; reached exactly the same conclusions and did the same thing at the same time. How did that turn out? 1929 happened; so NOT TOO GOOD. The British stuck with their stolen German Schwartzkopf 4 cylinder radial engine modified WWI runners, screwed up their magnetic influence exploder and developed a nifty aircraft torpedo drop system. Their results were mixed. The Japanese already had switched to Schwartzkopf 4 cylinder radial engines. They spent a fortune on testing for run reliability and costly manufacture of an oxygen boosted long range family of surface ship and submarine launched torpedoes. The Japanese did not test for nose wander, and they did not TRAIN for massed volley fire by surface ship divisions until Tanaka, Raizo introduced that novel concept to the Tokyo Express in mid 1942. The wake pressure sensitive contact detonator was an even bigger surprise failure to the Japanese, which they never fixed. On the plus side, their aerial dropped torpedo worked just fine and killed a few American aircraft carriers. The novel secret they had, the PID controller came back to the United States in a dud torpedo recovered after the Battle of Midway. Then we have the Americans who did everything they could from involving corrupt congress persons, to incompetent and corrupt naval officers, to creating a civil service, cannot fire these idiots, labor union, to a not invented here mentality, to an isolated factory test development center, to suing the FINEST TORPEDO MAKER on earth and driving them out of the business to starving the torpedo development people for funds and ignoring one GLARING crucial nautical fact. If you punch through the numbers from 1880 to 1922, the one weapon that had sunk more ships in total than the previous 500 years of naval warfare combined was... ... the torpedo. You would think a navy, who had the lessons of mine and torpedo warfare pounded into its officer corps by no less than Stephen Luce and Alfred Mahan would be extremely anxious to ensure that its torpedoes worked and would plead with its diplomats to somehow make sure that the same kinds of treaty technical limits put on guns would be applied to the far more deadly torpedo? Nope. The treaty technical limits WERE applied to the Germans. If you read the Versailles Treaty there are things in there about tanks, airplanes, naval guns, large bore artillery, submarines, machine guns aircraft (engines watts restricted), and TORPEDOES. Then came the Anglo German Naval Treaty and the SPEED BRAKES were off. I cannot emphasize how STUPID the AGNT was. Now the Germans could buy from the Italians, and openly develop those naval weapons that VERSAILLES hobbled them to lag in development in clandestine reduced circumstances and forced them to hide. As Vanovar Bush, an EXCELLENT Amertican scientist pointed out post war, the lack of development lead time, that Versailles imposed, and a decade of lost Gewrman own research robbed the Germans of an even bigger technical edge over the British in 1939. Not that the Americans did not hobble themselves in exactly the same way as mentione in the previously mentioned stupidities listed. So the Americans did what the Americans usually do, when a war is thrust upon them, called for volunteers, hired their best from industry and threw a LOT of MANPOWER and MONEY at the problem. To quote another American scientist; "If you put enough chimps on enough typewriters, all pounding away at the keys, you will eventually get the works of William Shakespeare." Or the FIDO, and the Mark 18 and Cutie. And somehow, you completely redesign the Mark 13, 14, and 15 torpedoes, invent sonobuoys, and apply game theory, and MIT fixes the defective British centimetric radar, and you win the naval war in the Atlantic and the Pacific in 1943. And all that you paid to do it with was 3,000 American submariners killed, 4,000 air crew drowned, and 2.5 BILLION 1940 dollars poured into torpedo research to fix what was not properly developed in peacetime. If you are an American, whose family lost members in WWII, you could just ...
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on Jun 9, 2023 18:59:05 GMT
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Likes: 4,295
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Post by miletus12 on Jun 13, 2023 17:23:36 GMT
First, let us look at a MAP. Color annotated. WWI and WWII color coding. Red was what Britain needed to do to win. Yellow was what the Germans needed to do to win. Blue off color was what the US or Japan needed to do to win. Now you can see that John Fisher and Julian Corbett totally ignored what Mahan wrote as to naval geography? Add to the utter blindness of those two naval amateurs the brand-new danger of the submarine as a weapon of sea denial. You would think that a halfway competent naval officer would understand that if you cannot feed yourself and if you cannot find the raw materials inside your country to keep your economy going, then you might want to protect the freighters that bring you the imports you need? Battlecruisers and submarines do not do that function very well. As Mahan wrote: were of more use than ships of the line when it came to defense of commerce. This piece of garbage... was much less useful than this ship;
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