stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 15, 2023 18:48:42 GMT
... it should not be forgotten that on several occasion prior to above note to Grey on 3rd August several belgian politicians and militaries (including the King) had made it clear that Belgium would defend itself against ANY foreign force trying to encroach its territory. ... including french troops as well as britsuh troops btw..
The King of the Belgians sent a telegram to King George V: Remembering the numerous proofs of your Majesty's friendship and that of your predecessors, and the friendly attitude of England in 1870, and the proof of friendship she has just given us again, I make a supreme appeal to the Diplomatic intervention of your Majesty's Government to safeguard the integrity of Belgium. Great Britain had a legal obligation to protect Belgian neutrality. If necessary British troops may be allowed to defend Belgian territory.
When was that sent? Before or after the German demands on Belgium for free passage or for the actual invasion of Belgium by German forces? Also one other question is how much power does the king have compared to the parliament - remembering that a few years previous the parliament had taken over the Congo region from the king?
If the telegram was prior to the German demands on the country then the king is suggesting something that would undermine Belgium neutrality even if Britain didn't enter the war as a result. However he may have considered this the best bet to deter a German invasion which he may well have suspected was coming.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 15, 2023 18:53:03 GMT
Well ... the document shown (in some ... improvable translation with adding non-existant elemts like :(Very Confidential)" or highlightening the word "RELIABLE") on the link from the site you've linked to was sent from Berlinto Herrn v.Below-Saleske in a sealed envelope by personal messenger on 29th July stemming from a draft by Moltke the Minor being reworked by officials of the foreign affairs secretariate as well as the office of the chancellor for some days prior to.
But ... Moltke the Minor had no information at all of french military operations and plans ASIDE only his very own considerations of war gaming the situation. ... aka he invented it.
And I can only seconde stevep that Below-Saleske in case of an "East First" campaign would have very likely been immediatly ordered to very literaly "burn" this envelope unopened. It would never have seen the light of Bruessels.
The Germans knew that moving against Russia would bring France into the conflict creating a second front to the rear putting the Ruhr Valley, Germany’s industrial heartland, in jeopardy. Berlin would have to deploy troops to the French border.
That's what they did OTL and those forces seriously blooded the French forces that attacked them. If Germany is not going west itself then it would also be wise for it to have some forces to protect against a French move through southern Belgium but as stated earlier in the thread this would only need a fraction of the forces committed to invading France via Belgium OTL and would have been pretty certainly stopped well short of the Ruhr and probably somewhere in southern Belgium.
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nomommsen
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Post by nomommsen on Jun 17, 2023 1:07:09 GMT
Well ... the document shown (in some ... improvable translation with adding non-existant elemts like :(Very Confidential)" or highlightening the word "RELIABLE") on the link from the site you've linked to was sent from Berlinto Herrn v.Below-Saleske in a sealed envelope by personal messenger on 29th July stemming from a draft by Moltke the Minor being reworked by officials of the foreign affairs secretariate as well as the office of the chancellor for some days prior to.
But ... Moltke the Minor had no information at all of french military operations and plans ASIDE only his very own considerations of war gaming the situation. ... aka he invented it.
And I can only seconde stevep that Below-Saleske in case of an "East First" campaign would have very likely been immediatly ordered to very literaly "burn" this envelope unopened. It would never have seen the light of Bruessels.
The Germans knew that moving against Russia would bring France into the conflict creating a second front to the rear putting the Ruhr Valley, Germany’s industrial heartland, in jeopardy. Berlin would have to deploy troops to the French border. ... sry but ... a wee check on google maps using the "terrain" function can show everybody the impossibility of french forces "jeopardizing" the Rhein-Ruhr industrial region first by distance and then by the terrain in this distance : highly defensable hilly terrain (btw. MUCH more hilly and different to north-eastern france of OTL trench warfare and its laughable 'passing distances' of offensives of a couple of hundred meters in the end at best if even so much) the Ardennes and then the Eiffel.
A french attack into the direction of said region would have been stopped 5 to 10 km behind the german-belgian border the latest.
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Post by halferking on Jun 18, 2023 5:54:27 GMT
The Germans knew that moving against Russia would bring France into the conflict creating a second front to the rear putting the Ruhr Valley, Germany’s industrial heartland, in jeopardy. Berlin would have to deploy troops to the French border. ... sry but ... a wee check on google maps using the "terrain" function can show everybody the impossibility of french forces "jeopardizing" the Rhein-Ruhr industrial region first by distance and then by the terrain in this distance : highly defensable hilly terrain (btw. MUCH more hilly and different to north-eastern france of OTL trench warfare and its laughable 'passing distances' of offensives of a couple of hundred meters in the end at best if even so much) the Ardennes and then the Eiffel.
A french attack into the direction of said region would have been stopped 5 to 10 km behind the german-belgian border the latest.
It was easy for France to invade the Rhein-Ruhr Valley - they did it in 1923. |
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nomommsen
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Post by nomommsen on Jun 18, 2023 6:28:07 GMT
... sry but ... a wee check on google maps using the "terrain" function can show everybody the impossibility of french forces "jeopardizing" the Rhein-Ruhr industrial region first by distance and then by the terrain in this distance : highly defensable hilly terrain (btw. MUCH more hilly and different to north-eastern france of OTL trench warfare and its laughable 'passing distances' of offensives of a couple of hundred meters in the end at best if even so much) the Ardennes and then the Eiffel.
A french attack into the direction of said region would have been stopped 5 to 10 km behind the german-belgian border the latest.
It was easy for France to invade the Rhein-Ruhr Valley - they did it in 1923. ... only that in 1923 french and belgian troops already stood on the left bank of the Rhine far east of said terrainian obstacles I mentioned and ... there was no opposing military at all.
... barely ... not at all comparable.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 18, 2023 9:31:35 GMT
... sry but ... a wee check on google maps using the "terrain" function can show everybody the impossibility of french forces "jeopardizing" the Rhein-Ruhr industrial region first by distance and then by the terrain in this distance : highly defensable hilly terrain (btw. MUCH more hilly and different to north-eastern france of OTL trench warfare and its laughable 'passing distances' of offensives of a couple of hundred meters in the end at best if even so much) the Ardennes and then the Eiffel.
A french attack into the direction of said region would have been stopped 5 to 10 km behind the german-belgian border the latest.
It was easy for France to invade the Rhein-Ruhr Valley - they did it in 1923.
Fully agree with nomommsen, comments. That is a terrible example to use halferking, as it tends to undermine your argument. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Jun 28, 2023 12:47:50 GMT
Going through Alsace-Lorraine with the @ French Army, employing its @ weapons and doctrine, would in my view result in the outcome put forward by Nomommsen and Steve. Indeed, if the situation was somehow reversed and the 1914 Germans were attacking east towards the Rhine against the French, they would also struggle. It is darn good defensive ground.
There would need to be some very different weapons, including superheavy howitzers capable of cracking the Metz and Thionville fortress complexes or Moselstellung. Given that they had 3m concrete roofs under up to 6m of compacted earth, we are roughly talking about 18" howitzers or greater to get the combination of the sufficiently heavy shell and range; the French Obusier de 400 Modele 1915/1916 could provide the former, but not the latter. It is also a late war weapon.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jun 28, 2023 20:26:05 GMT
Going through Alsace-Lorraine with the @ French Army, employing its @ weapons and doctrine, would in my view result in the outcome put forward by Nomommsen and Steve. Indeed, if the situation was somehow reversed and the 1914 Germans were attacking east towards the Rhine against the French, they would also struggle. It is darn good defensive ground. There would need to be some very different weapons, including superheavy howitzers capable of cracking the Metz and Thionville fortress complexes or Moselstellung. Given that they had 3m concrete roofs under up to 6m of compacted earth, we are roughly talking about 18" howitzers or greater to get the combination of the sufficiently heavy shell and range; the French Obusier de 400 Modele 1915/1916 could provide the former, but not the latter. It is also a late war weapon. Or you could send in sapper teams and spend the lives to pull the positions' relatively weak artillery teeth. It is not impossible, just annoyingly time consuming and expensive to do it that way in 1914 before people figure out the barbed wire machine gun combination. |
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