stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 9, 2018 17:08:43 GMT
I don't think that would be very successful to be honest, other than possibly as a propaganda tool for communists or other anti-American forces. While a lot about 1950's America [and other countries] would see unpleasant to up-timers its still basically a democratic state, at least by the standards of the time. Also any elected official doesn't really have any authority as that was done by people from 2006 and he has a down-time equivalent. If anyone did anything like that I think even a lot of the up-timers would see this as pointless if not in some cases almost treasonous.
We're dealing with the modern-day Asia-Pacific getting ISOTed back, though. Not its 2006 iteration. But I understand your point (though I'm sure it'd be offered and rejected in closed-doors uptimer meetings). Is there anything that Washington, DC in particular might do to get uptimer Americans on their side? They'd taken none too kindly to a great many 21st Century-era citizens and military personnel staying overseas. What they'd precisely do about that remains uncertain to me.
That was my point. If a 2006 Congressman say who was overseas tried to set up an 'alternative' government, especially using as hostile a term as Free America, which implies that the 1950 America was unfree I think even a lot of his 2006 fellow expats would find that distasteful.
Well it depends on how far their willing to go and with whom. They might try offering some sort of 2006 zone where up-timers could live in pretty much 2006 rules while they interacted with down-timers and passed on their knowledge. However whether this would include say acceptance of homosexual relationships, at least publicly by the up-timers and how much tension there would be with some of the down-timers they meet could be problems. Also the up-timers would have to assume/be confident the 1950 US would keep their word on this and also whether such an agreement might be rejected by a later government and where it leaves them.
An alternative might be allowing the up-timers to live in a friendly 2006 country where they could be debriefed say by the down-time US. This might be less explosive for all concerned as 1950 US would keep some distance from the up-timers and hence any 'oddities' are less public, along with some of the information they might have on public figures, future scandles etc. Although of course there would be questions about why don't they 'come home'. Possibly also a lot of rumours and uncertainty. Given this was the period coming up to McCatheism and the red scare there could be some tension here.
Given the relative difference in power I doubt the 1950 US could do much about people staying in the 2006 countries as the latter are in many cases much more powerful. Also given a 56 year time difference they have somewhat less ability to apply family pressure. "This young man here asking you to return to the US is your grandfather" is less powerful when you knew him as an elderly figure who died a decade ago say.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Dec 9, 2018 17:49:57 GMT
We're dealing with the modern-day Asia-Pacific getting ISOTed back, though. Not its 2006 iteration. But I understand your point (though I'm sure it'd be offered and rejected in closed-doors uptimer meetings). Is there anything that Washington, DC in particular might do to get uptimer Americans on their side? They'd taken none too kindly to a great many 21st Century-era citizens and military personnel staying overseas. What they'd precisely do about that remains uncertain to me.
That was my point. If a 2006 Congressman say who was overseas tried to set up an 'alternative' government, especially using as hostile a term as Free America, which implies that the 1950 America was unfree I think even a lot of his 2006 fellow expats would find that distasteful.
Well it depends on how far their willing to go and with whom. They might try offering some sort of 2006 zone where up-timers could live in pretty much 2006 rules while they interacted with down-timers and passed on their knowledge. However whether this would include say acceptance of homosexual relationships, at least publicly by the up-timers and how much tension there would be with some of the down-timers they meet could be problems. Also the up-timers would have to assume/be confident the 1950 US would keep their word on this and also whether such an agreement might be rejected by a later government and where it leaves them.
An alternative might be allowing the up-timers to live in a friendly 2006 country where they could be debriefed say by the down-time US. This might be less explosive for all concerned as 1950 US would keep some distance from the up-timers and hence any 'oddities' are less public, along with some of the information they might have on public figures, future scandles etc. Although of course there would be questions about why don't they 'come home'. Possibly also a lot of rumours and uncertainty. Given this was the period coming up to McCatheism and the red scare there could be some tension here.
Given the relative difference in power I doubt the 1950 US could do much about people staying in the 2006 countries as the latter are in many cases much more powerful. Also given a 56 year time difference they have somewhat less ability to apply family pressure. "This young man here asking you to return to the US is your grandfather" is less powerful when you knew him as an elderly figure who died a decade ago say.
Thank you for bringing that up. Though I can't guarantee what innumerable other uptimers would do, I probably wouldn't go back to '50s America except for perhaps business affairs; my..demographic characteristics would screw me over if I did.
Even without those issues, it might be fairly obvious why modern people would feel disinclined to return; black-and-white TV and the utter lack of social media tends to do that in any case. Of course, that'd lead to a conversation in which downtimer authorities are introduced to those technological advancements. I wonder what they'd do with that knowledge upon receiving it.
As for overseas citizens living in some other country or a Hong Kong-esque special administrative zone, that's probably a stalling tactic for worsened public relations at best. Sooner or later, the '50s people will find out about Civil Rights, "the permissive society", the whole nine yards coming into being. Even before that happens, rumors are bound to spread throughout the US about the "strange/secretive uptimers". This would embolden Old Joe McCarthy, no doubt.
However, also keep in mind that this is the modern-day Asia Pacific being ISOTed back (i.e. from the 2010s+), not the 2006 version. I think you're mixing up the "2006 Western USA to 1962" thread with this one.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 9, 2018 19:59:52 GMT
That was my point. If a 2006 Congressman say who was overseas tried to set up an 'alternative' government, especially using as hostile a term as Free America, which implies that the 1950 America was unfree I think even a lot of his 2006 fellow expats would find that distasteful.
Well it depends on how far their willing to go and with whom. They might try offering some sort of 2006 zone where up-timers could live in pretty much 2006 rules while they interacted with down-timers and passed on their knowledge. However whether this would include say acceptance of homosexual relationships, at least publicly by the up-timers and how much tension there would be with some of the down-timers they meet could be problems. Also the up-timers would have to assume/be confident the 1950 US would keep their word on this and also whether such an agreement might be rejected by a later government and where it leaves them.
An alternative might be allowing the up-timers to live in a friendly 2006 country where they could be debriefed say by the down-time US. This might be less explosive for all concerned as 1950 US would keep some distance from the up-timers and hence any 'oddities' are less public, along with some of the information they might have on public figures, future scandles etc. Although of course there would be questions about why don't they 'come home'. Possibly also a lot of rumours and uncertainty. Given this was the period coming up to McCatheism and the red scare there could be some tension here.
Given the relative difference in power I doubt the 1950 US could do much about people staying in the 2006 countries as the latter are in many cases much more powerful. Also given a 56 year time difference they have somewhat less ability to apply family pressure. "This young man here asking you to return to the US is your grandfather" is less powerful when you knew him as an elderly figure who died a decade ago say.
Thank you for bringing that up. Though I can't guarantee what innumerable other uptimers would do, I probably wouldn't go back to '50s America except for perhaps business affairs; my..demographic characteristics would screw me over if I did.
Even without those issues, it might be fairly obvious why modern people would feel disinclined to return; black-and-white TV and the utter lack of social media tends to do that in any case. Of course, that'd lead to a conversation in which downtimer authorities are introduced to those technological advancements. I wonder what they'd do with that knowledge upon receiving it.
As for overseas citizens living in some other country or a Hong Kong-esque special administrative zone, that's probably a stalling tactic for worsened public relations at best. Sooner or later, the '50s people will find out about Civil Rights, "the permissive society", the whole nine yards coming into being. Even before that happens, rumors are bound to spread throughout the US about the "strange/secretive uptimers". This would embolden Old Joe McCarthy, no doubt.
However, also keep in mind that this is the modern-day Asia Pacific being ISOTed back (i.e. from the 2010s+), not the 2006 version. I think you're mixing up the "2006 Western USA to 1962" thread with this one.
Sorry, your right, I was getting those two threads mixed up.
Agree that there will always be problems. Apart from what the assorted expats know there will be the issue of knowledge coming from the assorted modern date states sent back to 1950. The down-timers will want to do anything they can to catch up and even a visit to a public library or archive of papers say will tell them a hell of a lot and much of that will be social and political changes. Which countries that will accept such changes, to a greater or lesser degree as opposed to saying "We're not having that here" will be the ones who are more successful.
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mullauna
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Post by mullauna on Dec 10, 2018 13:16:15 GMT
Aren't most Golden Age of Hollywood - and many Silent Age of Hollywood - actors and actresses still alive in 1950? There'd be a lot of interest from film buffs and historians in the ISOT zone about meeting them. How will the actors/actresses react to their post 1950 lives and ultimate deaths?
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Dec 10, 2018 13:39:47 GMT
Thank you for bringing that up. Though I can't guarantee what innumerable other uptimers would do, I probably wouldn't go back to '50s America except for perhaps business affairs; my..demographic characteristics would screw me over if I did.
Even without those issues, it might be fairly obvious why modern people would feel disinclined to return; black-and-white TV and the utter lack of social media tends to do that in any case. Of course, that'd lead to a conversation in which downtimer authorities are introduced to those technological advancements. I wonder what they'd do with that knowledge upon receiving it.
As for overseas citizens living in some other country or a Hong Kong-esque special administrative zone, that's probably a stalling tactic for worsened public relations at best. Sooner or later, the '50s people will find out about Civil Rights, "the permissive society", the whole nine yards coming into being. Even before that happens, rumors are bound to spread throughout the US about the "strange/secretive uptimers". This would embolden Old Joe McCarthy, no doubt.
However, also keep in mind that this is the modern-day Asia Pacific being ISOTed back (i.e. from the 2010s+), not the 2006 version. I think you're mixing up the "2006 Western USA to 1962" thread with this one.
Sorry, your right, I was getting those two threads mixed up.
Agree that there will always be problems. Apart from what the assorted expats know there will be the issue of knowledge coming from the assorted modern date states sent back to 1950. The down-timers will want to do anything they can to catch up and even a visit to a public library or archive of papers say will tell them a hell of a lot and much of that will be social and political changes. Which countries that will accept such changes, to a greater or lesser degree as opposed to saying "We're not having that here" will be the ones who are more successful.
You may be right about top '50s leadership recognizing the pragmatism of accepting uptimer stuff (even if they don't entirely approve of everything in private); that doesn't mean every downtimer will. I'm doubtful that most people--whether from then or now--understand the geopolitical value behind such a move. Although, I suppose a ~70-year difference between the Asia-Pacific and, well, everyone else could convince many of them to make an exception this time. Nonetheless, I'm sure there will be those who want uptimer technology, but not their socio-cultural values, and those who reject both. The latter might justify their stance by claiming, "those heathens are sucked into their screens!", despite similar excuses being used to oppose technological advancements that they're presumably fine with (i.e. cars, radio, newly-emerged TV). That said, I'm unsure which particular figures will fall into which category. However, I wonder if the US's unionized industrial areas will be reluctant to accept (certain forms of) technological change, such as automation that they'd see as threatening to take their jobs away. Speaking of that, do we have predictions about how downtimer audiences would react to 21st Century STEM and (to modify a certain government agent's catchphrase from The Iron Giant) all that it entails?
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mullauna
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Post by mullauna on Dec 10, 2018 21:28:48 GMT
1950s USA wouldn't play black originals of many songs, only covers by white artists with "clean" lyrics. How do you think they are gonna cope with 2010s hip-hop?
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Dec 12, 2018 14:49:20 GMT
1950s USA wouldn't play black originals of many songs, only covers by white artists with "clean" lyrics. How do you think they are gonna cope with 2010s hip-hop? Well, given that rather innocuous-seeming music (to us, anyway) was banned around that time not just by broadcasters, but also an entire genre by Santa Cruz, California and a few other towns alongside it, it's safe to say that a great many places in '50s America would do something similar with 21st Century music, at the very least. If the national government would get involved in its distribution is another, legally dubious question. That said, we should also discuss how downtimer youth would like (or dislike) uptimer music, not to mention 2010s+ pop culture in general. One might wonder how an encounter between some Asia-Pacific teens or college kids and their '50s counterparts would play out..
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