Alternate 1990s ORBAT

[forcon]

I don't know why the document is double spaced. Is there a way to undo that without having to edit it manually?

[James G]

May 3, 2020 19:57:42 GMT forcon said:

I don't know why the document is double spaced. Is there a way to undo that without having to edit it manually?

The first post in a new thread will always double space no matter what you do: its a formatting thing. You'll have to manually undo it.

That's a big army. I take it there are more ARNG units?

[forcon]

May 3, 2020 21:17:58 GMT James G said:

May 3, 2020 19:57:42 GMT forcon said:

I don't know why the document is double spaced. Is there a way to undo that without having to edit it manually?

The first post in a new thread will always double space no matter what you do: its a formatting thing. You'll have to manually undo it.

That's a big army. I take it there are more ARNG units?

Ah, thanks.

Yep. I had the Fifth Army as the higher readiness Guard/USAR force that would be able to deploy as a whole or at the corps or Division level within a couple of months, but there are other units. The 34th Infantry Division would be the largest, which would probably have a home defence role maybe in Alaska in wartime. There are also many separate artillery & engineer brigades, plus a few combat manoeuvre units: the 31st, 155th, 116th & 163rd Armored Brigades, the 81st, 218th, & 256th Mech Infantry Brigades, and the 27th, 39th, 41st & 86th Light Infantry Brigades. They'd be at a longer readiness, with the option there to put them under the command of newly stood up divisions to form another corps or maintain them as home defence units. Lots of MPs would be needed for that role.

The Army is a lot bigger than OTL. The end of the Cold War would see the end of VII & IX Corps as active units with them transferred to the Guard, and the 5th, 6th, 8th & 9th IDs stood down. However, the 24th & 7th IDs stay active past the 1990s unlike OTL. V Corps stays in Germany with the 1st AD and the 3rd ID & 2nd ACR.

Ultimately, the 'General War' scenario would have V Corps in Europe, III Corps reinforcing Europe, I Corps in Korea, and XVIII Corps either in the ME or in Europe depending on the scenario. I Corps would come under Eighth Army command in wartime, and the 2nd ID would come under I Corps' overall command. 11th ACR & 177th Armored Brigade would probably also end up here. There would be no Strykers, with the LAV-25 taking that role and the Griffin light tank being in large-scale service.

[forcon]

@lordroel this would be circa 2020.

[lordroel]

May 4, 2020 13:57:52 GMT forcon said:

@lordroel this would be circa 2020.

So with how much is it bigger than its OTL counterpart.

[forcon]

May 4, 2020 17:06:53 GMT lordroel said:

May 4, 2020 13:57:52 GMT forcon said:

@lordroel this would be circa 2020.

So with how much is it bigger than its OTL counterpart.

Significantly, probably around the size of the Army in 2009/2010, but with three-brigade divisions rather than four. 

[stevep]

   forcon ,

   Presuming since the forward bases are in western Germany - and S Korea for the US that for whatever reason the Soviet empire hasn't collapsed and WP forces in large numbers are still sitting just across the Iron curtain?  That we're still basically in a cold war scenario with Russia rather than China seen as the primary threat to the west.

  Steve

[forcon]

May 5, 2020 10:52:09 GMT stevep said:

   forcon ,

   Presuming since the forward bases are in western Germany - and S Korea for the US that for whatever reason the Soviet empire hasn't collapsed and WP forces in large numbers are still sitting just across the Iron curtain?  That we're still basically in a cold war scenario with Russia rather than China seen as the primary threat to the west.

  Steve

The scenario would be a collapse of the Warsaw Pact, but a more hardline Russia that has a maintained control over Ukraine, Belarus & the Baltics and has begun asserting itself throughout the later half of the 1990s once again, meaning that while the US & British militaries have seen significant draw-downs since 1991 when the Warsaw Pact finally went under, the primary threat is still seen as Russia, with China as a close second and the potential for conflict in Korea. 

[stevep]

May 5, 2020 11:15:56 GMT forcon said:

May 5, 2020 10:52:09 GMT stevep said:

   forcon ,

   Presuming since the forward bases are in western Germany - and S Korea for the US that for whatever reason the Soviet empire hasn't collapsed and WP forces in large numbers are still sitting just across the Iron curtain?  That we're still basically in a cold war scenario with Russia rather than China seen as the primary threat to the west.

  Steve

The scenario would be a collapse of the Warsaw Pact, but a more hardline Russia that has a maintained control over Ukraine, Belarus & the Baltics and has begun asserting itself throughout the later half of the 1990s once again, meaning that while the US & British militaries have seen significant draw-downs since 1991 when the Warsaw Pact finally went under, the primary threat is still seen as Russia, with China as a close second and the potential for conflict in Korea. 

  forcon,

  Wouldn't this lead to a deployment of forces more on the border or hasn't places like Poland, Hungary etc joined NATO?  In which case are they in a basically very nervous neutrality?

  Steve

[forcon]

May 5, 2020 11:36:23 GMT stevep said:

May 5, 2020 11:15:56 GMT forcon said:

The scenario would be a collapse of the Warsaw Pact, but a more hardline Russia that has a maintained control over Ukraine, Belarus & the Baltics and has begun asserting itself throughout the later half of the 1990s once again, meaning that while the US & British militaries have seen significant draw-downs since 1991 when the Warsaw Pact finally went under, the primary threat is still seen as Russia, with China as a close second and the potential for conflict in Korea. 

  forcon,

  Wouldn't this lead to a deployment of forces more on the border or hasn't places like Poland, Hungary etc joined NATO?  In which case are they in a basically very nervous neutrality?

  Steve

My thinking was that Poland, Hungary, etc would be in NATO and would have larger militaries, but there wouldn't be much in the way of ground forces deployed there because of the Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty and the fear of provoking Moscow. The deployments there would likely be air units and rotational brigades from BAOR and Seventh Army.

In this scenario, I'd like to have Ukraine and Belarus technically being independent, but with Russian forces stationed in their soil in corps strength. In effect, Moscow could say 'jump' and the 'independent' Republics would have to say how high. Any signs of dissent in Ukraine, for example, and the guards tank armies already stationed in Ukraine would occupy Ukrainian Army garrisons and impose a new pro-Moscow regime in Kiev. Same with Belarus. The Baltic's would be under a harsher occupation, and Central Asia would be independent.

Poland, Hungary, Czechia and Slovakia would probably be in NATO but they might also have a separate alliance with the US and UK for insurance.

[forcon]

Also Lordroel, all ORBATs in this thread are part of the same scenario and relevant circa 2020.

[stevep]

May 5, 2020 11:45:07 GMT forcon said:

May 5, 2020 11:36:23 GMT stevep said:

  forcon ,

  Wouldn't this lead to a deployment of forces more on the border or hasn't places like Poland, Hungary etc joined NATO?  In which case are they in a basically very nervous neutrality?

  Steve

My thinking was that Poland, Hungary, etc would be in NATO and would have larger militaries, but there wouldn't be much in the way of ground forces deployed there because of the Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty and the fear of provoking Moscow. The deployments there would likely be air units and rotational brigades from BAOR and Seventh Army.

In this scenario, I'd like to have Ukraine and Belarus technically being independent, but with Russian forces stationed in their soil in corps strength. In effect, Moscow could say 'jump' and the 'independent' Republics would have to say how high. Any signs of dissent in Ukraine, for example, and the guards tank armies already stationed in Ukraine would occupy Ukrainian Army garrisons and impose a new pro-Moscow regime in Kiev. Same with Belarus. The Baltic's would be under a harsher occupation, and Central Asia would be independent.

Poland, Hungary, Czechia and Slovakia would probably be in NATO but they might also have a separate alliance with the US and UK for insurance.

  forcon,

  OK thanks for the explanation.  I'm wondering how the Russian economy is managing this.  Even if it avoided the OTL economic disaster that was the 1990's 70 years of communism has left it in an awful mess and such a large military commitment is really going to strain it, even if it still has Ukraine, Belrus and the Baltic to loot.

  Steve

[lordroel]

May 5, 2020 11:45:46 GMT forcon said:

Also Lordroel, all ORBATs in this thread are part of the same scenario and relevant circa 2020.

The BOAR ore do we call it the BOAG is bigger than 2020 British Army of OTL i presume.

[lordroel]

May 5, 2020 18:30:07 GMT forcon said:

It would be BAOR, and very much bigger. About the 1995 size, so not as big as in the 1980s and with a lighter force structure.

So it is still in West Germany.

[forcon]

May 5, 2020 18:32:56 GMT lordroel said:

May 5, 2020 18:30:07 GMT forcon said:

It would be BAOR, and very much bigger. About the 1995 size, so not as big as in the 1980s and with a lighter force structure.

So it is still in West Germany.

United Germany; the 1st Armoured Division & I Corps are stationed there. 3rd Mechanised & 6th Light Divisions are in the UK and, along with most of the corps assets, would go to BAOR upon mobilisation.