Alternate 1990s ORBAT

[simon darkshade]

Post Cold War reductions, the top priority divisions by historical lineage were the 7ID, 9ID, 24ID, 5ID and 2AD. After that, I’d say it would go 8ID, 6ID and 3 AD. Using the 23ID may be somewhat controversial with the shadow of My Lai hanging over it.

FWIW, the other Regular Army divisions not reactivated in the 1980s but active since WW2 (ie in the 1950s Korea buildup) were the 4AD, 5AD, 6AD, 7AD, 11ABN, 23ID and 71ID, the latter two being purely static divisions. The 69th Infantry Division was active as a training division between 1954 and 1956.

[forcon]

Since 7ID is active in I Corps & 24ID is still XVIII Corps' heavy division, I'll go with 9ID and have it as part of I Corps.

[forcon]

One more problem.

My USAR Division will feature the 81st Mech from Washington as a heavy brigade. For the other, both USAR, brigades, I'm thinking one mixed/motorized with a mixture of air assault, Stryker, and light armor battalions, but what about the third brigade? Heavy, motorized, or light?

Since the Division is under I Corps I'm thinking HQ should be in Montana or Arizona, since there aren't going to be enough troops in Oregon and the WA Guard takes up most of the manpower pool in Washington.

[James G]

Jun 1, 2020 10:48:53 GMT simon darkshade said:

Post Cold War reductions, the top priority divisions by historical lineage were the 7ID, 9ID, 24ID, 5ID and 2AD. After that, I’d say it would go 8ID, 6ID and 3 AD. Using the 23ID may be somewhat controversial with the shadow of My Lai hanging over it.

FWIW, the other Regular Army divisions not reactivated in the 1980s but active since WW2 (ie in the 1950s Korea buildup) were the 4AD, 5AD, 6AD, 7AD, 11ABN, 23ID and 71ID, the latter two being purely static divisions. The 69th Infantry Division was active as a training division between 1954 and 1956.

That linage is something I have read before. It seems to be the case too due to the recent OTL re-raising of the 7th Infantry Division when 'common sense' might have seen the 5th - a lower number - used first.
I have seen the 23rd Infantry Division used in Matt Wiser's Red Dawn series and I might have (can't remember) had it raised in my own Red Dawn story too. I would think though that the 11th Infantry Brigade rather than the whole 23rd Division might have that shadow of controversy following My Lai. I could be very wrong there though.

[James G]

Jun 1, 2020 12:47:52 GMT forcon said:

The 9th Infantry Division (USAR) is now complete, and is listed as part of I Corps on page one of the thread.

forcon I see you used the 190th Infantry Brigade as part of the 9th Infantry Division. Can I suggest a change to the 199th Infantry Brigade?
The linage of the 190th is with the 3rd Brigade of the 24th Infantry Division: the division's 1st Brigade is the 169th Infantry Brigade and the 2nd Brigade is the 170th.

The 199th Brigade is 'free' of such issues and has had a short recent history active, that being when the 9th Infantry Division was being disestablished and the 199th Brigade was formed to control assets from the division as it disappeared.

[simon darkshade]

From my reading, the 23rd and Americal are fairly much synonymous in that period and the general opprobrium thus extended to the divisional level.

The particular circumstances of the Red Dawnverse are such that those type of issues are rapidly outweighed by sheer necessity; there has never been a fully mobilised wartime US Army orbat done that I've seen, but the general principal of raising new (old) divisions in sound in that case.

As a general observation, I've seen the 23rd Infantry Division used in a number of fictional works that want to add another light infantry division to the mix, as the 11th-22nd Infantry Divisions rarely get a look in for expanded Regular US Armies. The one exception is some of the works of Harold Coyle, where he goes for higher-numbered divisions on quite a few occasions.

[simon darkshade]

Yes, Coyle did use the 12th (Light) Infantry Division, 16th Armored Division, 25th Armored Division, 52nd Mechanised Infantry Division, 55th Mechanised Infantry Division, the 14th Armored Cavalry Regiment and XXIII Airborne Corps in his works as well as the 11th Air Assault Division, 17th Airborne Division and X Corps. This is not to mention an additional fictional Iowa (USS Utah) and an AC-130 with an automatic 75mm cannon. Compared to other technothriller authors, he stands out as the one chap who goes beyond the typical 1980s units from @; even Eric Harry in Arc Light, after flirting with other units, ended up using the usual suspects.

As such, there is precedent for using another unit if you wish and it does make a story stand out from the crowd in this (extremely niche) manner.

[forcon]

Another idea; how would replacing the National Guard roundout brigade concept with Army Reserve roundout brigades work? the 1st Infantry Division would get the 157th Infantry Brigade, the 25th Infantry Division would get the 205th Infantry Brigade, and the 10th Mountain Division would get the 187th Infantry Brigade. Good idea or problematic? The divisions with their ARNG roundout brigades work fine, but the USAR could take up that role.

[simon darkshade]

There would need to be a good reason why. The USAR was more focused on combat support since the 1960s, or even beforehand. Secondly, said brigades already had combat missions assigned, which would involve juggling. Without a compelling reason, the ARNG brigades do a fine job.

[James G]

Perhaps what happened in late 1990 with regards to the round out brigades is taken into consideration and they are removed from their mission.
The two from Georgia and Mississippi were both mobilised for Desert Storm. There were serious issues, though not all the fault of the ARNG. Maybe there is a swap due to Pentagon politics and the Reserve take the National Guard roles and vice versa?

[forcon]

Jun 9, 2020 11:48:58 GMT simon darkshade said:

There would need to be a good reason why. The USAR was more focused on combat support since the 1960s, or even beforehand. Secondly, said brigades already had combat missions assigned, which would involve juggling. Without a compelling reason, the ARNG brigades do a fine job.

Jun 9, 2020 14:47:12 GMT James G said:

Perhaps what happened in late 1990 with regards to the round out brigades is taken into consideration and they are removed from their mission.
The two from Georgia and Mississippi were both mobilised for Desert Storm. There were serious issues, though not all the fault of the ARNG. Maybe there is a swap due to Pentagon politics and the Reserve take the National Guard roles and vice versa?

My thinking was that a Post Desert Storm mobilisation issue would have caused the switch, but I think I'll go back to the ARNG roundouts. It makes more sense because the Army may scale down or up and need more roundout brigades; the USAR cannot provide those while the ARNG can. 

[forcon]

ITTL, Canada retains one heavy division in its armed forces: two brigades are in Canada with the divisional HQ, while one brigade group is forward in Germany, along with likely some supporting assets and a single CF-188 squadron.

Furthermore, anybody have any information about the Capstone program post Cold War? I have the ARNG here mostly deployed under the Fifth Army, but some separate brigades remain - namely the 30th Armored, 32nd Mech/Light, 48th Mech, 218th Mech and a few others. Should I have them as separate brigades under the NG's VII & IX Corps' or as Capstone elements to I, III, V & XVIII Corps? Bear in mind, the 116th Cavalry Brigade is already Capstoned to I Corps along with the 371st Sustainment Brigade from Ohio.

[James G]

Jun 18, 2020 9:53:00 GMT forcon said:

ITTL, Canada retains one heavy division in its armed forces: two brigades are in Canada with the divisional HQ, while one brigade group is forward in Germany, along with likely some supporting assets and a single CF-188 squadron.

Furthermore, anybody have any information about the Capstone program post Cold War? I have the ARNG here mostly deployed under the Fifth Army, but some separate brigades remain - namely the 30th Armored, 32nd Mech/Light, 48th Mech, 218th Mech and a few others. Should I have them as separate brigades under the NG's VII & IX Corps' or as Capstone elements to I, III, V & XVIII Corps? Bear in mind, the 116th Cavalry Brigade is already Capstoned to I Corps along with the 371st Sustainment Brigade from Ohio.

There is a CAPSTONE thing I read yesterday with every brigade and division. It'll be on my laptop so when I get home I'll send it to you.
It covers up until 91 but I don't know if it carried on post 91.

[forcon]

Jun 18, 2020 10:58:08 GMT James G said:

Jun 18, 2020 9:53:00 GMT forcon said:

ITTL, Canada retains one heavy division in its armed forces: two brigades are in Canada with the divisional HQ, while one brigade group is forward in Germany, along with likely some supporting assets and a single CF-188 squadron.

Furthermore, anybody have any information about the Capstone program post Cold War? I have the ARNG here mostly deployed under the Fifth Army, but some separate brigades remain - namely the 30th Armored, 32nd Mech/Light, 48th Mech, 218th Mech and a few others. Should I have them as separate brigades under the NG's VII & IX Corps' or as Capstone elements to I, III, V & XVIII Corps? Bear in mind, the 116th Cavalry Brigade is already Capstoned to I Corps along with the 371st Sustainment Brigade from Ohio.

There is a CAPSTONE thing I read yesterday with every brigade and division. It'll be on my laptop so when I get home I'll send it to you.
It covers up until 91 but I don't know if it carried on post 91.

Thanks, I'd appreciate that. I'll draw my own conclusions from it: I do like the idea of capstoning a few brigades to active duty corps, but the failure of the round out concept in Desert Storm makes me hesitant.

[James G]

This is the link, but it can sometimes be broken (the site has issues): www.tank-net.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=44409
I've copied the info here on my test thread:
alternate-timelines.proboards.com/thread/3175/test2?page=1&scrollTo=98863